Eunuch Maker site

[Sakebigoe]

I think it's important to look at the aftermath of these procedures and how it impacted the people involved. Trent Gates was brought up and he's definitely a cautionary tale rather than someone to idolize. He still occasionally posts on social media but it's the ravings of a madman rather than anything resembling a coherent stream of thought. He clearly has and had some mental health issues that likely contributed to how he made such a drastic decision to nullify himself in a very impulsive and unsafe way. It's also important to remember that he was hospitalized after both of his diy procedures, and as I recall, involuntarily committed after his penectomy for a short time. I'm obviously not saying anyone who choses to get castrated is insane, that would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black considering I had myself castrated, but I think it's important to take a great deal of caution when approaching these things.

[WheelyFixed]

Weighing-in on this late, as I only just recently came across some links to this content on another site, and actually not only did it change my opinion, but changed my entire outlook on the “process” of becoming a eunuch.

At the risk of being banned, and at the cost of having to eat my previous words of sanctimonious disdain, some of what I have seen has opened my perspective to new possibilities.

<Moderator Mode on> This isn't a problem post far as I'm concerned, though I thank you for NOT posting links to those videos. Politely expressed opinions that don't violate the rules against overly religious / political content are totally OK...

That said, we do have a long standing policy, inherited from EAv2, that we don't condone or provide instruction on DIY surgery. This dates back to the point when medically performed surgery became at least somewhat readily available. <Moderator Mode off>

I think you make some legitimate points, even if I don't totally agree with them.

First off, I agree that much of what I saw was really horrific. Some very confused and hurt people hurting themselves in really awful and dangerous ways. People being subjected to things that maybe they didn’t fully understand, or feel totally invested in. And some who obviously got ambushed or coerced with regrettable consequences. For these things all my previous comments still stand and I do think it is harmful for the “community” - but then it’s the people creating victims by their actions, or giving passive endorsement by their voyeurism that are the ones who are “not good for the community” in the first place. And some of the people who are represented as “cutters” I wouldn’t let cut a piece of pie, let alone do amateur surgery.

Much as we may dislike the hoops that we have to jump through under the SOCv8, it is worth noting that the reason for them is to make sure the people seeking care are mentally competent and totally understand what they are getting into. I wish the hoops weren't quite so hard to get through and even more significantly that it was easier to get surgery once you've gotten past them. Similarly while there are certainly incompetent docs, the M.D. on a name does give some confidence in the competence of the care, as compared to the unknown of a cutter...

But there were videos that I did see that were not only eye-opening, but useful in their instruction. Useful to the point of being able to imagine the viability of a self-made solution.

While EM’s work was a bit on the sloppy side, his process and how he presented it was thorough and clear. See “EM-VN Penectomy” and “EM-VN Castration” as good examples of that.

But I have to say it was a video of a young man named Trent (see “Trent Penectomy,”) who really helped me process this and get grounded in it. He executes his self penectomy with all the calmness and indifference as if he was making a peanut butter sandwich - and with about the same amount of blood. Just very cool and focused, working quickly and cleanly. The video of his castration is similar, except he uses scissors- which is never a good idea for skin.

So, in actually taking a step back, I have to acknowledge that benefits CAN be realized from “viewing” *some* of the fringe and forbidden, depending on where you meet it, and with what intention. It certainly took me to a new place in my journey. And thusly, there is also use to be able to access an expanded knowledge base - to help people avoid other potential harms once they understand the process.

I’m a trained first responder, so I get the medical stuff like tourniquets, and catheters, and dressings, etc; the trauma stuff like blood loss and shock; the dressing and aftercare - wound management, etc.

I've never said it was impossible to DIY it, or for a reasonably competent cutter to do the job, and have it come out just fine... But as we all know, "$#!T happens", and to me the major risk is what happens when something goes WRONG. An MD has (hopefully) lots of training on what to do, and normally has all sorts of resources readily available (seconds away in a hospital setting...) A cutter probably doesn't, and a DIY patient even less so. And especially in the case of the DIY, how good was his training in how to do it? You said you liked the videos, but as a machinist, I have seen an awful lot of videos on how to use mills and lathes that looked sort of OK, but I wouldn't pass a person on those tools based on watching videos (and often would have flunked the video maker...) Even more critically how good is his 'first responder' training on how to deal w/ problems?

I think it is an excellent idea to watch videos on procedures in order to understand what is involved, though I prefer the ones made by and for medical people, but I don't consider watching them to make me even vaguely qualified to grab a scalpel and start carving...

But the questions around how THOSE specific aspects are specifically dealt with is a HUGE knowledge gap for those seeking answers. How long do the elastrator tourniquets stay on? Cauterize or not cauterize; how to manage a great big open wound where the scrotum used to be when the wound can easily open with movement or defecation? Infection? Minimize post-op movement or not (some of these people are just going about their business after the chop)? So much missing knowledge.

And the ONLY people who can answer those questions knowledgeably - the few who have done “credible” work; enough times; and seen/managed enough scenarios first hand to know what to expect and how to improvise what to do - are silenced or deep underground. And so the “useful” knowledge goes to the grave and the rest of the “community” loses out.

Be careful to parse out carefully what I am actually expressing here…

There IS value to the knowledge.

Some of the knowledge has been lost, but much of it still exists, but it is in the hands of the MD's

Eunuchs have been made - and made themselves eunuchs - for millennia - before surgeons, and before the act was considered barbarism or a sign of mental illness. Very little of THAT knowledge has stood the test of time.

Leeching used to be the status quo. Then it became barbaric. And now it’s making a mainstream comeback endorsed by the medical community.

It’s unfortunate we can’t have a balanced, informed, and detailed conversation about the “instruction manual” without all the other scary, nasty, crazy, borderline stuff getting in the way.

There was a time when C-sections were also hideously barbaric and done by amateur midwives with few tools. It was their knowledge and continued “hands-on” experience and iteration that eventually got us to where the procedure is today…

SOMEBODY has to go first.

SOMEBODY. Always. Has. To. Go. First.

It is the undeniable, unavoidable, unenviable universal human truth. Whether you’re talking about Airborne Rangers, or twins leaving the womb, somebody has to be first.

My $0.02.

I agree, an instruction manual discussion might be desirable, but the problem is keeping the borderline stuff out, and arguably more important keeping the 'borderline people' from using that manual...

It is also important to remember that while we've been making eunuchs pretty much since the beginning of civilization, an awfully high percentage didn't live through the process - probably more due to poor infection control but also less than ideal procedures...

WheelyFixed

[Godson]

While I appreciate everyone’s weighing in on my post and respect everyone’s opinion, I do have to call out that some of what I have said has either been misinterpreted, or mislabeled.

Please read my words very SPECIFICALLY! As that is the way they were written - without any room for misunderstanding of my point of view or intention.

I do not “idolize” anyone. I do not “like” the videos.

Etc., etc.

I do agree that some of what Trent did - like cutting off his testicles with scissors over a plate, etc. is indicative of not necessarily a healthy mindset and clearly thought out execution. That doesn’t necessarily invalidate other aspects of what one might view in the tangible parts of his process.

And I do get the skilled trades analogy as I also work in a trade. So the point isn’t lost. Likewise, before I decided to retire from “business,” I did actually work very closely in strategy with surgeons and the highest levels of medical governance in both Canada and the USA, so I very clearly get the healthcare point of view on this.

I am simply and specifically acknowledging what could legitimately be argued as the pros/ cons of what is presented, and the reasonable and legitimate questions about the “what else?” that falls out of this.

I am commenting on the aspects of what I see in the subject’s demeanour, or aptitude.

Anything other than that is a misreading that paints me into a corner in which I do not belong.

That said, this post has already begun to serve a purpose for me by adding context to what I’ve viewed, as I haven’t been scouring the places on the internet, and other than this place, I do not affiliate with any “community” where conversations such as this might be happening to fill in some blanks.

Respectfully,
Micah

[Godson]

At the risk of “beating the dead horse of which there is little left but a smear on the pavement,” I did want to close the loop on my comments around this topic.

So, (unfortunately?) I went down a rabbit hole of “research” that took me to some dark places I would rather not have known existed, of people doing things that prove “not matter how awful it is, if you can imagine it, someone is doing it.”

So, I never knew anything about EM or the depths of these types of communities, but now understand everyone’s previous comments. Some of these people deserve to rot in jail. With big badass cell mates who teach them what the word “dominance” truly means. Every day.

Retribution aside, I also learned some extremely useful new things from the comments of others, about some really repulsive things, that led me to legitimate medical sources I never knew of; that showed techniques and products to increase the margin of safety.

And most surprisingly, a couple of the videos that were the most disturbing to sit through actually provided the most useful examples of “techniques” that had been missing.

Don’t get me wrong - I am not condoning or promoting here. Absolutely not. “Shoes pounding on the table” absolutely not!

But what I do find myself doing is returning to my original points about the difficult paradox the community faces in whether to walk the delicate tightrope around the themes of open conversations,transparent knowledge, and acknowledging that that which is “horrible and unconscionable” also has elements pf “pioneering” which can serve the collective usefully.

Like the uncomfortable fact that much of modern medicine owes its groundwork in the horrors of the Holocaust (and I say this as one with a Jewish bloodline on my mother’s side, with a relative that died in those camps). If you’re taking pill or having a procedure, there’s a likelihood someone paid in blood for your benefit.

Likewise, so too do we need to confront the same dilemma in all of these things we would rather not know is happening. Perhaps if the “information” was destigmatized, then simultaneously, maybe the demonic and dangerous elements might be pushed to the side, as two “intentions” can’t occupy the same space.

Humble pie eaten. With a healthy side of crow.

Carry on…

[WheelyFixed]

I very much agree with what you say. It would be good if there was a way to separate the positive learning and knowledge from the horrific parts, both in the area of our interest and in many others...

It is a conundrum that we have gotten a lot of knowledge about medicine from experiments and actions that are gross and extreme violations of what we consider to be acceptable medical ethics today... The Holocaust, The Tuskegee VD experiments, and so on... In many of those cases what we can learn from them is limited by the data collected or the methods available at the time, but it quite properly would be considered to outrageous to even suggest repeating them now (which is a good thing!)

Even in the edges of our interest area there are questionable areas... One of the questions that arises is whether or not castration increases human lifespan... One of the better studies came out of Indiana, where they tracked the lifespans of men and boys that were confined to their institutions for the 'feeble minded' and 'mental defectives' and involuntarily castrated, largely for such heinous offenses as being chronic masturbaters... (They reduced the numbers after WWII, but only ended this practice in the 1960's, and about 16-17 US states still have the laws allowing gov't ordered sterilizations on the books...)

It is also a thing that cuts both ways at times... I am tremendously frustrated by the rules about medical trials that keep a lot of things that looked promising in laboratory research into SCI's from being available for trial by willing and fully informed volunteers because it "wouldn't be ethical" Certainly they are high risk, but why can't a person with serious medical issues take a gamble?

WheelyFixed

[dandelion]

I once had a discussion with Wheely regarding countries that do not have the SOC8 process and patients who could not afford medical tourism. I know of some underground cutters who most likely have had some pretty comprehensive form of medical training and do excellent work: so good that you would have thought one was born like that. I would bet my money that there are only a small handful of surgeons in the US that can do what he does, as often as he does. Perhaps out of fear of prosecution, or perhaps to prevent amateurs from DIYing, he does not publish his methods but only before/after comparisons.

The world is not black and white. Our forum's audience is mostly from the western world, however, and we are lucky that modern western medicine has provided a safe pathway for those who seek such medical intervention. With such avenue, I think it is appropriate to not allow discussion of seeking/providing cutter service.

[Godson]

I once had a discussion with Wheely regarding countries that do not have the SOC8 process and patients who could not afford medical tourism. I know of some underground cutters who most likely have had some pretty comprehensive form of medical training and do excellent work: so good that you would have thought one was born like that. I would bet my money that there are only a small handful of surgeons in the US that can do what he does, as often as he does. Perhaps out of fear of prosecution, or perhaps to prevent amateurs from DIYing, he does not publish his methods but only before/after comparisons.

The world is not black and white. Our forum's audience is mostly from the western world, however, and we are lucky that modern western medicine has provided a safe pathway for those who seek such medical intervention. With such avenue, I think it is appropriate to not allow discussion of seeking/providing cutter service.

You mention 3 very timely and relevant points that I’d like to build on, even at the fear of dragging this out even further:

A) “I am” a person who arguably lives in one of the worlds top cities for access to GAS resources, surgeons, and clinics, as well as top tier cancer clinics where onco-urology is available. And, I am also one of those people who can’t afford to travel, or has the support network to help with that.

If you revisit my posts, I started this journey from the “high moral ground” of trying to do things the right way, engage stakeholders, and solicit legal support with the idea of changing the system - which I’ve found (to the agreement of both lawyers and the practitioners I’ve spoken with) is blocking access due to technicalities and nomenclature, even though all the legal and technical precedents are already there.

I invested that time and effort from the standpoint and intention that “a rising tide raises all ships.” That while this benefits me first, the time and effort pays off for the community’s next person’s journey.

And I was deeply invested in that path (some of the next steps of which I outlined here) until I saw the video of Trent sitting on a bed that the Pennie’s dropped from my eyes and my perception flipped to the other side of the coin.

Maybe seeing that casual approach and setting contradicted with the bloody, screaming, nightmare horror movie that I originally imagined these things to be. Maybe it connected with my independent streak of growing up in isolated places where I was surrounded by strong willed people just “doing whatever needed to be done in emergencies because there were no other options and because that was just a different time (good luck with calling for help in 70’s…) of being exposed to much “scarier” things starting at a very young age?

Maybe it had to do with my decades of doing serious extreme sports in remote areas (back when I was still healthy) that requires having to take matters into hands - for self and others - and then seeking formal training to be able to do those things right?

Maybe it connected with so many years of having to learn and improvise how to work on my own body after it was broken to expedite “getting on with it” and avoid the months long waits for 15-minute specialist referrals and delayed procedures?

Whatever it was, *something* connected enough to make me question why I was looking at stacking more years on top of already “sunk cost” years in chasing a system that was actively avoiding what it was bound to do; cajoling professionals who refused to do what they were already doing.

THAT new perception is what set me down this road of seeking new opinions and information.

B) You made a very legitimate point about differences in “academic skill” versus “practical skill.” I saw an example of that where the person showed their work and it was demonstrated far more expertise than the sloppy-by-comparison work shown in the clinic and teaching slides I sought out for further information.

Additionally, your point actually builds on the argument around the paradox and the moral dilemma that I’ve been discussing here: the absence of “accessible, vetted knowledge.”

C) I also agree with you that conversations around access to cutters, etc., isn’t a direction the site wants to go in. No one in their right mind could advocate for a “classified ads” kind of presence. And I also mention (NOT endorse - MENTION) the prevalence of sites and people who work around the rules and ethics but infer it in posts and ads (not necessarily on this site) for slaves, masters, and whatever the kink, fetish, or living arrangement is that’s used as code for predation.

I agree that the current state of this whole genre is just too loaded with not just all kinds of jeopardy, but also both predators and prey - the predators who should be expunged, and the prey who should be gently and earnestly guided towards help.

Let me clarify yet again, that there hasn’t been - and are not now - ANY traces of that kind of encouragement or endorsement in my words.

My theme has ONLY been philosophically focused on the moral dilemma of transparency, and I have clearly stayed focused on the *problem* (knowledge gaps), rather than the *people* (seeking assistance, finding/serving an audience, sex roles, etc).

Never have I drifted across that line. And I don’t intend to.

That inference may or may not have been embedded in your comment; I’m restating my intentions and positions again because this is just too flammable a topic and too unstable an accelerant - and too many dubious lurkers in the shadows with matches in their pockets - for there to be any misinterpretations…

[WheelyFixed]

I think this is a very interesting discussion, Micah and don't see it as a problem as long as we are keeping it on the theory level and not getting deeply into the "HowTo" details.... I also have not considered your comments in any way advocating that you are endorsing DIY surgery or using cutters, or encouraging the site to do so.

In general I tend to be very much in agreement with the DIY angle of doing things as opposed to being dependent on calling in specialists. In many ways I have more respect for a well rounded generalist that can do a tolerable job on anything dropped in front of him than the specialist that is really expert on one thing but lost outside his specialty silo...

I enjoy "voiding warranties", and consider those "No user serviceable parts inside" labels to be a dare... I'm a big fan of "Right to Repair" and have testified in favor of legislation mandating the info needed to do repairs... I never buy a new replacement for something I own that broke until I've taken the broken item apart and determined it's beyond repair....

Where I personally draw the line is when there is a high risk of personal injury or serious property damage... I have no problem with attempting a repair or modification that might destroy the thing I'm working on, assuming I think I'm capable of doing it.... I generally won't work on gas lines or plumbing given the potential for leaks severely damaging destroying the house. (And I do electrical with the code book in one hand...) Back before I got hurt, I spent a good bit of time with a chain saw cutting the wood we used for heating, including felling a fair number of trees (and it was a freak tree cutting accident that got me...) but I would not even consider touching a tree that could land on a house or do other damage if it went the wrong way....

While I will do first aid / emergency response to the best of my ability, unless there is someone there that can do it better, and have a fair bit of training in how to do so, I draw the line at DIY surgery simply because IMHO the risks and, more importantly, the consequences of something going wrong are to damn high. I will repeat advice that the mods used to give on EAV2, that if one insists on DIY, do it close to someplace where professional help is available FAST, and have someone with you that can and will either get you to that help, or at least call emergency services and do first aid until they get there....

I think that between the medical videos I've watched and the reading I've done, I probably COULD perform a castration if I had to, but no way would I ever consider trying it short of someone holding a gun to my head... Knowledge is one thing, practical experience is another.

I also somewhat agree with your opinions of some of those sites we will not mention and the existence of predators on them, along with some that probably are prey... However I don't think they are universally predators / prey - some are, but I will also grant the existence of people who truly and genuinely want to be slaves (or masters) or engage in other "non-standard" kinks, fetishes, or living arrangements... As far as I'm concerned I may not understand "your kink" (and certainly don't want to engage in it!) but as long as all involved are willing and consenting, have fun... IMHO the biggest problem is how to tell the difference between mutually consenting kinksters and predators, or when the line crosses from one to the other.

(BTW, EAv2 used to have a 'classified ad' area, it went away because the software that it ran on became non-supported, NOT because of problems with the content of the ads - it was before I got involved so I never saw the area, but my understanding is that the prohibition against anything involving minors or seeking / offering cutter services applied there but pretty much anything else legal was OK...)

WheelyFixed

[Godson]

Thanks for your reply and Happy New Year!

I apologize for being unresponsive, but I went even further down a pretty deep rabbit hole of research, including conversations who have either done this to themselves or for others, and it was very useful (again: not advocating or promoting anything - just stating).

And it also took me in really profound, and unexpected directions - not just regarding the landscape of DIY eunuchs, but also reaching a new, unexpected level of my own eunuch identity.

I’ve recently retired and am looking for a purpose. This whole exercise has not only fired me up to do an intensive “passion project,” but has also help me gel what my next and last “career” is going to be, and has sparked me into building a new future.

Wheely - since you sparked my interest in this would you be open to looking at a project abstract and offering your opinion?

Thanks,
Micah

[WheelyFixed]

Thanks for your reply and Happy New Year!

I apologize for being unresponsive, but I went even further down a pretty deep rabbit hole of research, including conversations who have either done this to themselves or for others, and it was very useful (again: not advocating or promoting anything - just stating).

And it also took me in really profound, and unexpected directions - not just regarding the landscape of DIY eunuchs, but also reaching a new, unexpected level of my own eunuch identity.

I’ve recently retired and am looking for a purpose. This whole exercise has not only fired me up to do an intensive “passion project,” but has also help me gel what my next and last “career” is going to be, and has sparked me into building a new future.

Wheely - since you sparked my interest in this would you be open to looking at a project abstract and offering your opinion?

Thanks,
Micah

Certainly... Either here in the forum, or via PM... If it's something that won't work with a PM, send me one to let me know and I can give you my email... (I just started a Proton account, and now have an EA specific address... (If anyone wants a Proton account, let me know via PM, I get a small reward for referrals...))

WheelyFixed