EA Forums

yc

I can see your point it dose make it easer than tracking several deferent threads at a time

This discussion has been interesting and educational for me. I agree that postponing puberty would give a boy the opportunity to WANT to become a man. Parents and authority figures decide what is best for boys (and girls).

As an example, I didn't want my male grandchildren circumcized, but the doctors did it to ALL of them because it's a routine thing to do. What if those boys grow up and wish they had NOT been circumcized. The deed is done, even when some people claim they can stretch the foreskin so that it will appear uncut. Those boys didn't have a choice! I didn't have a choice, but my sharecropper Dad didn't have the money to circumcize me and so I now have a nice foreskin.

On a more personal note, puberty was very hard on me. My genitals did not start growing until I was almost fourteen years old. That's when I learned about the joy of masturbation. I was about 21-22 when I got hair on my chest and a "treasure trail" running down to my dick and balls.

The worst part of puberty is that my voice, a boy soprano, did not change until I was almost SEVENTEEN. A boy showering after P. E. with small balls and a smaller dick who had a boy's voice caused me great embarrassment. It's a wonder that the guys didn't call me "queer"---at least to my face!!!!

So, having a delayed puberty might be a good thing for boys. It couldn't be any worse than the way things are NOW!!!!

Thanks for reading this.

Sailorboy

sailorboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:04 am This discussion has been interesting and educational for me. I agree that postponing puberty would give a boy the opportunity to WANT to become a man. Parents and authority figures decide what is best for boys (and girls).

What they think is "best."

sailorboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:04 am As an example, I didn't want my male grandchildren circumcised, but the doctors did it to ALL of them because it's a routine thing to do. What if those boys grow up and wish they had NOT been circumcised. The deed is done, even when some people claim they can stretch the foreskin so that it will appear uncut.

Never sign a "blanket" release. This give way too much latitude to the doctor. Always sign DIRECTED releases that specifically bar such procedures. (Sidenote: Most circumcisions done at birth are done at birth are done by a OBGYN. Not a urologist. OBGYN's are not trained to do circumcisions.)

sailorboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:04 am Those boys didn't have a choice! I didn't have a choice, but my sharecropper Dad didn't have the money to circumci

se me and so I now have a nice foreskin.

Actually, you were given the choice, and you chose not to remain "intact" (as in "whole", "un"circumcised impiles something yet to be done).

My dad was not circumcised, so he saw no reason to pay for one for me, so he refused to sign a release allowing it so I still have it even now. My brother developed an on-going infection under the foreskin, so a circumcision was required, but was done by a urologist, who performed an "excellent" one (as far as circumcisions go, no more skin was removed than was absolutely necessary to prevent re-occurrence of the infection).

Many HMO's now view circumcision as an elective surgery, unless, it is performed strictly for certifiable medical reasons, so the rate of circumcision is dropping in this country. In other countries, Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc... HMO's or National Health Plans refuse to pay for neo-natal circumcisions. Too many neo-natal circumcision results in numerous issues later in life. (How can a doctor, not trained to do circumcisions, do one well on a penis that is extremely tiny.) The most common error is to remove too much skin and at least some, if not all, of the mucus membrane. In most cases, the foreskin and glans are fused until around 10 years of age or so, when they separate from each other. Tearing the two apart at birth to perform a neo-natal circumcision can cause numerous issues.

This not the forum for an an-going discussion of circumcision, other forums are more appropriate, such as NoCirc (http://nocirc.org/).

Both circumcision and delaying puberty are decisions made by parents. Not making a decision is, in fact, making a decision.

sailorboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:04 am On a more personal note, puberty was very hard on me. My genitals did not start growing until I was almost fourteen years old. That's when I learned about the joy of masturbation. I was about 21-22 when I got hair on my chest and a "treasure trail" running down to my dick and balls.

Some guys never get get chest hair, even a "treasure trail," including actors William McNamara and Scott Wolf. Body hair is one of those things that vary so great due to genetics.

sailorboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:04 am The worst part of puberty is that my voice, a boy soprano, did not change until I was almost SEVENTEEN. A boy showering after P. E. with small balls and a smaller dick who had a boy's voice caused me great embarrassment. It's a wonder that the guys didn't call me "queer"---at least to my face!!!!

I'm surprised that you voice dropped that long after puberty started. And in an earlier post I comment about one of friends that had not hit hid puberty before I left High School (he was a year behind me).

sailorboy (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:04 am So, having a delayed puberty might be a good thing for boys. It couldn't be any worse than the way things are NOW!!!!

You're not alone in this opinion.

Thanks for reading this.

Sailorboy

According to THIS (http://www.montereyherald.com/health/ci_9585901) YANKEE CLIPPER has an ally in principle to his claim.

i wish i had been castrated before i went thru puberty. i never felt like i was a real man and i should have been female. but at this point i would be happy to just remain a prepubescent boy all my life. non-sexual but outwardly as a male. to late now.

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:35 pm According to THIS (http://www.montereyherald.com/health/ci_9585901) YANKEE CLIPPER has an ally in principle to his claim.

Interesting. Thanks.

According to THIS,

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:35 pm (http://www.montereyherald.com/health/ci_9585901) YANKEE CLIPPER has an ally in principle to his claim.

Thanks you, A-1.

From that article:

The American Academy of Pediatricians recommends children between the ages of 13 and 18 be involved in determining their medical care. Parents and physicians should not exclude adolescents from decision-making without justifiable reasons.

I Just read the referenced article, and A-1 has found a piece that covers the type of issue that all too often occur with young people. The doctors won't work with the minor, even to the point of the unwillingness in setting up an appointment. The doctors wait until the parents request an appointment, the parents don't take the time to pay attention to the child, unless the child collapses from whatever underling medical conditions are present. Anything less than that and they are too self-absorbed in their own lives to pay enough attention to the needs of their children.

In this young man's case, these are not symptoms that should be so lightly ignored. Any one of them alone should be reviewed by a doctor, more so when all of theses are present.

I hate the idea of doctors or teachers talking about a child either if they are not present, or that the child might have input (if present) into their own health or educational considerations and requirements. This doesn't mean the child is absolutely (probably not far off though) correct, but to act as if the child does have not any thinking capabilities ("talking over their head" metaphorically) when it is that child's health or educational needs that are at issue is incomprehensible.

Does it make sense to have the parents make all the health decision for a child until their are 18, with no input from the child, and suddenly leave the 18 year-old to start working with health processionals independently?

I was lucky, when I hit 12 (by then puberty was well started, and even if not, back then, he would not have believed that I wanted to castrated), I could set up my own appointments, and then my doctor would consult with my parents about any issues that came during the appointment. They would then follow up on his recommendations.

A physical is often is usually required for school sports activities, so that is often a good time to have these issues addressed. Also, whatever happened to the traditional "annual physical?"

The one limitation with the above is that, for transsexual children, or children that never want to progress through puberty, is that by 13 puberty can be well started by then.

Again, A-1, Thank you for that reference.

plix (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:01 am I've always wondered about this whole maturity thing. Maturity is pretty subjective, I think. There are quite a few choices people of all ages make that a lot of people feel would suggest immaturity, but there are others who see no problems with these choices. So how do we determine what makes a person deserve to be considered mature?

I am not so sure we can judge maturity based on a few actions here and there. Everyone makes stupid choices every once in a while. It doesn't matter how old or mature you are.

Rather, I feel in order to truly judge a person's level of maturity, you need to look at their overall character.

I will agree with you that many young people are immature. I come across college age students daily who are painfully immature, and this immaturity is probably a large part of why I have never associated much with people my own age.

What I cannot agree with is this belief most people have that age automaically equals maturity. I have known many adults in my lifetime who I would consider quite immature, and I have known many children who I felt were more mature than most adults. While age typically equals more life experience, even life experience does not equal maturity. One has to learn from that life experience and grow as a person because of it.

Speaking of me, I haven't hit that magical developmental milestone of age 25 yet, so I am not yet mature. Exactly on my 25th birthday, my brain will finish maturing, and on that day I can instantly expect a rush of maturity to hit me. I am looking forward to it.

You dont fully mature until age 25 as a male?

I do not know a lot about the maturity rate of the brain and body following puberty.

Any information would be helpful.

plix (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:01 am I've always wondered about this whole maturity thing. Maturity is pretty subjective, I think. There are quite a few choices people of all ages make that a lot of people feel would suggest immaturity, but there are others who see no problems with these choices. So how do we determine what makes a person deserve to be considered mature?

I am not so sure we can judge maturity based on a few actions here and there. Everyone makes stupid choices every once in a while. It doesn't matter how old or mature you are.

Rather, I feel in order to truly judge a person's level of maturity, you need to look at their overall character.

I will agree with you that many young people are immature. I come across college age students daily who are painfully immature, and this immaturity is probably a large part of why I have never associated much with people my own age.

What I cannot agree with is this belief most people have that age automaically equals maturity. I have known many adults in my lifetime who I would consider quite immature, and I have known many children who I felt were more mature than most adults. While age typically equals more life experience, even life experience does not equal maturity. One has to learn from that life experience and grow as a person because of it.

Speaking of me, I haven't hit that magical developmental milestone of age 25 yet, so I am not yet mature. Exactly on my 25th birthday, my brain will finish maturing, and on that day I can instantly expect a rush of maturity to hit me. I am looking forward to it.

I Fully agree with Plix about this maturation thing.

You can never evaluate ones maturation level just by asking age or looking at external appeareance.

Some people learn until the end of their lives, some loose ability to learn at some age, some never develope enough to make normal everyday decisions that are good for themselves.

Also, people mature different in different spheres of life. For example, geniuses like Einstein could be painfully immature in socializing with other people. Or politicians who could give you a good overall impression at first contact could be totally incompetent in areas they claim to be proffessionals.

We all are different my friends!

But there is a rational reason to set age limits. At some point of life people must start making decisions on their own. Nobody else can do that. Be it good or bad decisions, decisions must be made.

It would be extremely costly for society if some authority start to evaluate people maturity in order to give them various rights an responsbilities. It is reasonable only in very special cases.

Why youths are sometimes so immature and unable to be responsible for their acts because our society do not want to give rights to them. Rights and responsibility are things that can not be separated.

In primitive societies there are coming of age rites, that stresses to youth that they will gain their rights only after they have gone through some tests physical and mental. If you don't pass the tests you are not accepted as adult. Very simple. This is just an example of rights and responsiblility connection. In our society things are much more complex. And you can not evaluate people that simple. One can be mature enough to start his/her own business but can not be enough mature to start his or her own family.

Etc.

With castration of boys and adolescents I think it is not wise to set certain age limits. Every case must be studied separately. Whether to castrate immediately, delay puberty or decline the procedure. Decision must be well informed and respected. Especially in our society, where eunuchs have no status, place, role or acceptance we have to be rather conservative.

E.

I think I have come upon this discussion a bit late, but this is what I want to say.

When I was a boy, as young as 8, due to the upbringing I had , I wanted to be castrated. However, as Catholicism was dominant as well as abuse present , I never got the chance to go ahead with it. However, stress that I went through doesn't hold water in relation to the heavier-hitting reasons males may have for making such a decision. I don't wish to go into the details of my upbringing as they are still somewhat traumatic for me as well there is the Latin proverb, "Never speak ill of the dead." It is true that, if I had gone through with the procedure, I would never have had these three daughters of mine.

I suppose the age of consent for such a procedure should be 21. In my state, one has the right to drink by then; and this decision should be left to a guy with a little more (hopefully) maturity than 18. Then again, I have seen 21-year-olds act like adolescents, so, maturity should be a factor and counseling should be mandatory.

It is also true, however, what was previously posted, "

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:40 am a man can never return to being a boy.

"

for letting me speak my mind.

Puberty was rough for me. Prior to puberty I would have said no way is anything gettin' cut off or removed on me. Now that I look back on it, knowing what I know now, I probably would've welcomed the idea of not having to even deal with the troubles that puberty caused me. And as it has been said multiple times in this thread, that if a boy wants to go through puberty even it castrated with HRT they can.

Knowing what I know now I wish it had been an option to have a few quick snips and "opt out" of puberty:-\

I loved being a child, but I could never wait to get broad sholders, more muscles and a big dick... Though to get there, I had to endure puberty just like everyone else, and that has been the worst part of my life. Don't think I would have wanted to have my testicles removed though as I have always wanted to "live forever" by having children of my own and continue the family.

Fascinating thread. I have since pre puberty dreamed about castration every day. I hated puberty and wished I could remain prepubescent. I however loved masturbation too much to proceed with it. If one day I see the ability to afford HRT I will proceed with castration.

With the developments in stem cell research I wonder what the chances are of re growing testicles that have been removed or even growing ones that never developed properly? That would be very advantageous in reinforcing the notion of castrating prepubescent boys.

Some questions I would like answered please;

1: If prosthetic erectile implants were used in a person after ubescent castration. Would the erections allow the same level of nerve stimulation as a normal erection in a non castrated person. Or is there some other factor that inhibits the nerve signal from sending the same sort of pleasure that can result in normal masturbation?

2: Replanting testicles. Why not. If the vas deferens can be reconnected why not a complete testicle from an organ donor?

castr8fun (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:16 am Fascinating thread. I have since pre puberty dreamed about castration every day. I hated puberty and wished I could remain prepubescent. I however loved masturbation too much to proceed with it. If one day I see the ability to afford HRT I will proceed with castration.

With the developments in stem cell research I wonder what the chances are of re growing testicles that have been removed or even growing ones that never developed properly? That would be very advantageous in reinforcing the notion of castrating prepubescent boys.

Some questions I would like answered please;

1: If prosthetic erectile implants were used in a person after ubescent castration. Would the erections allow the same level of nerve stimulation as a normal erection in a non castrated person. Or is there some other factor that inhibits the nerve signal from sending the same sort of pleasure that can result in normal masturbation?

2: Replanting testicles. Why not. If the vas deferens can be reconnected why not a complete testicle from an organ donor?

1. yes the nerves would fire, but there is no telling if you would have any sex drive unless on T (I don't need much T for sex drive/erections), if you are on T then you shouldn't need the implants.

2. Organ donor? You would need to take immune modulating (lowering) drugs for life or risk rejection. With a low immune system you are more susceptible to infection and disease, not a good trade off.

hope this answers your questions

Puberty's tough, but I don't think I noticed - too busy masturbating.

The real work of adolescence is learning how to function in adult society, and this is very painful. Children are indulged, and their bad behavior forgiven. Adults need to know the right things to do, and do them. Very tough to learn.

What was hard on me was young manhood, not puberty. When I was 18-25, I felt a duty to function sexually in the ways my peers and the movies told me I should. I experienced this as an insupportable burden. I had no acceptable way to live out my bisexuality (this was the 1960s-1970s), and I was continually humiliated by my inability to join in the courtship behavior of other young men. It was really fear. I didn't think of castration. I thought of suicide. Castration wouldn't have let me off, because no one would know, and unwelcome expectations would still be heaped on me. It's been a lonely and twisted path. Now that I'm 60, my sex drive is much less, and I suppose that works like castration. Being old also is an excuse. Sad, but there it is.

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:36 pm Puberty's tough, but I don't think I noticed - too busy masturbating.

The real work of adolescence is learning how to function in adult society, and this is very painful. Children are indulged, and their bad behavior forgiven. Adults need to know the right things to do, and do them. Very tough to learn.

What was hard on me was young manhood, not puberty. When I was 18-25, I felt a duty to function sexually in the ways my peers and the movies told me I should. I experienced this as an insupportable burden. I had no acceptable way to live out my bisexuality (this was the 1960s-1970s), and I was continually humiliated by my inability to join in the courtship behavior of other young men. It was really fear. I didn't think of castration. I thought of suicide. Castration wouldn't have let me off, because no one would know, and unwelcome expectations would still be heaped on me. It's been a lonely and twisted path. Now that I'm 60, my sex drive is much less, and I suppose that works like castration. Being old also is an excuse. Sad, but there it is.

No, you shouldn't think of it as sad. Everyone gets there, and it's nature. It's not a curse getting older. It's a privilege! I agreed that after puberty was just as hard.. I still think so, trying to be an adult now. The ones who should have been (at least threatened with) castration are all those bullies who just cannot seem to let others be, and have to pressure and tease for not acting like an animal like them (fucking "all" the time)! Hehehe;-)

Too bad the bullies rule the world.

I ate at a diner a couple nights ago, and a young man near me was going on about how he couldn't imagine living to 50 and getting all old and wrinkly. He said he might kill himself first. I didn't tell him I was 60, although I did say that on his 50th birthday he wouldn't want to die. It was funny, but he meant it.

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:14 am Too bad the bullies rule the world.

I ate at a diner a couple nights ago, and a young man near me was going on about how he couldn't imagine living to 50 and getting all old and wrinkly. He said he might kill himself first. I didn't tell him I was 60, although I did say that on his 50th birthday he wouldn't want to die. It was funny, but he meant it.

Saying such a thing would only result in a huge regret when the time comes. And if he really still feels the same when he eventually turns 50, then you could call his condition a MAJOR ISSUE =P I think most people are comfortable with the age they are at anyway. If you live good when young, you'll live good when older.. If you think you'll stay young forever by yourself, and think you're invincible, and don't give a fuck how you treat your body, mind or heart, you'll later be SHOCKED white-haired =D

If you are old now, you have already been young. And if you are young now, you'll get older too. Honestly, I think there are more qualities to older people than the younger ones. I don't find superficialities like external stuff like skin and hair etc. to be greater "qualities" than morality, wisdom, conscience, you name it.. And btw.: Death is only an illusion anyway! Hehehe! Nothing to fear but fear itself. I believe ghosts are just "leftovers" of those who believed in a physical/material world too much. How can atoms and electrons be physical? They are not. Neither is Earth, nor the Sun. It's the connection/dependency/LOVE between them that makes stuff seem physical. I guess only babies know this, animals too, trees even, and Yeshua (Jesus), old people and me. Hehe! I'll bet no young Justin Bieber is ever gonna tell you this Oh, and the bullies of this world will be bullied with.. when Karma hits them. Too bad! So shape up, everyone of you assholes out there, before it's too late. For your own sake! Yes, everybody is good ENOUGH, and truly worh something.. Your physiological worth is the Love between Light and Sound (which is what atoms/stars and electrons/planets are in their principles/initiations). The Sun and the Earth IS every life here, it's the only two ingredients everything consists of! That's how "God" (this love/dependency) sees everything we do.. Sees with OUR eyes, smell with OUR noses, hears with OUR ears etc. Which is the reason executioners wear hoods to not be registered by Karma, I'd guess. Thinking you can be God yourself is quite a backwards way of dealing with reality, and knowingly thinking so is the purest definition of satanism/Luciferianism. But peace be with us:)

Well said! Great post.

Hi

I'm a new member. Thanks for acceptation to EA. Sorry, for my English. I'm genetic woman and I have no experiences after castration but the topic is interesting for me.

I was in high school and I was a member of the dance studio. Then, I met a eunuch who was castrated before puberty. He was 13 years old. His castration was forced by tumors on both testicles. He told me that within 5 years after his surgery any form of HRT wasn't recommended by medical reasons because he had genetic markers indicating for illness's return. He had visible features as Italian castrates described in books. He was tall and a little bit feminized. His voice has no changed and I can say that it wasn't female voice as mine, for example. He had higher pitch then I have and I can say that he had voice as young boy. I was a pupil of the integration-school where there were "normal" people and handicap. It was embarrassed for us when we saw him dressed as a boy with face of girl and with this voice no male nor female. I changed school due to my parents movement and it was my new school close our home. I admit tha by a long time I was ashamed to say something to him. It was easer for me to help my friends on vehicles then to be closer the eunuch. Of course, we never asked what happed in his life because it was unwritten law in our school - "don't ask because your friend on a vehicle is your friend but not an object of unhealthy curiosity.

The eunuch fascinated me and later we became very good friends. We were at the age 16 when we met. I thought that eunuchs should be like zombie from horrors. My friend was quite different. He was very nice and very lively, maybe too much lively then me. Sometimes he disappeared from school because he was in hospital.

When we were more close then I was more brave to talk more intimate topics. Then he told without inhibition that he was a eunuch. I know how it is difficult to say. I was rather tense hearing it. I asked whom he felt male or female. A reply was - 'I'm in the middle.' and he added something what was strange for me that he didn't regret he became a eunuch because he didn't know life as male. Many opinions about 'mental disease' of such eunuchs base on stories of eunuchs who had problems with mind before castration. He told me that he had never depressions and suicidal thoughts. I saw a movie about castrato who had primary fatal circumcision. My friend was quite different. I think that an young castrato's behavior depend on an individual and personal characteristics.

Later before we became a student's he changed gender formally. In our student's time I shared with him a room. He was very good friend and we have never had even a little quarrel.

Unfortunately, before our graduation he died after a traffic accident. He was ridding a bicycle and he was hit by a car.

How can I describe his body?

He was tall and he had female loins and no breasts. Of course, I saw him under shower and I can say that I'd like to have such smooth body as he had. Below eyes his body was total hairless. He had very beautiful face rather as a child.

I was really fascinated his body and mind too. I think that he was more physically stronger then me because I always was in jitter before examine but he didn't.

I don't know statistic how many boys were castrated before puberty and how looked theirs life after but I'm a follower castration of pre-puberty boys if it is associated with illness, preservation supernatural talent (boys' choir). I'll be always against emasculation of boys because parents want it or if this is associated with sex or if it is caused by unhealthy fantasies. In such cases people want it should be undergone treatment or prisoned.

Again sorry for my English.

I'm an inactive member since a year. Many posts aren't interesting for me. I'm 26 years old eunuch. I was castrated at the age of "castrati choristers". I don't remember myself as a boy because I had removed both testicles and vas surgically at the age 13. I remember only a fright before surgery. Boys treat male organ as jewelery which leads to shock after castration. So, I wasn't different. My disease caused that I was a long term with contact to hospital. Doctors didn't recommend HRT/T and within 5 years after the surgery I was without hormones but under control of endocrinologist. I was 17 when I begun hormonal therapy. I had many attributes as such 'castrati' usually had. My body has many women's and eunuchoidal features. I'm rather tall (183cm/6ft) with disturbed body proportions. I have "barrel" chest and a little breasts in a style "fried eggs". Below eyes my body is hairless. I have never had pubic hair. Of course, my voice hasn't changed and remains similar to boyish soprano. At the age 18 I have changed my official sex and I become a woman in documents. I take small doses of female hormones in the sticky patches on the back. My libido is rather very low. I can't say that I regret the loss of masculinity but the life as a eunuch wasn't pleasure. Of course, it was easy visible whom I was because I was different then my contemporaries. I have old friends who don't care my my otherness but a lot of people have stupid smile noticing me as a eunuch. It is easer to have no hand or legs because many people want to help but eunuch is still considered as 'defected male'. I have to point out that I have never had depressions and suicidal thoughts due to T absence in my body.

I joined the EA because two years ago I decided for srs but without the vagina reconstruction. I wanted to know about srs-after-efects. Since August 2009 I am completely "cleared".

Nice fantasy story, but according to the IP trackers here, you and LB are the same person.

Enough.

I hope this string is not "dead" as I would like to add something. If we lived in a world where there was no social stigma or public disapproval associated with preteen castration than having a boy castrated would be no different from having his touncles removed. If there was not a pregidous of and hatered for eunuchs and transgenders then boys might be neutered for virtually any reason at all.

A boy might asked to be cut just because he felt it would be more comfortable than having to wear a cup for little league baseball or because he didn't like getting hit in the balls. But let's face it, whether we like it or not, someone has to carry balls. Someone has to reproduce or we die out. In other words the stigma about preteen castration might just be a good thing for society. Without it where would we be?

Josh Goodman (imported) wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:02 am I hope this string is not "dead" as I would like to add something. If we lived in a world where there was no social stigma or public disapproval associated with preteen castration than having a boy castrated would be no different from having his touncles removed. If there was not a pregidous of and hatered for eunuchs and transgenders then boys might be neutered for virtually any reason at all.

Even, if eunuchs were as accepted members of society as any other normal members, castration mean a lot of changes, many of them are irrreversible. Thus, decision to get castrated continues to be difficult. especially for preteen boys.

but you never know. In societies where individual rights are not so valued, things might be different.