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Probably the best place to start getting educated about estrogens is by starting with the "phytoestrogens" (which are plant estrogens). There are three types of female estrogens which a few plants do have. However most of the estrogens that these plants have are neutral and may or may not correspond with some of the neutral estrogenic compounds that the body has naturally. There is a ton of chemical analysis being done right now on exactly which estrogenic chemical compound is going to where in the body (the bones, the heart, the brain, etc.) The body does seem to be able to convert any type of estrogen-like compound and convert it into another type. I really wish I could easily read all of these scientific papers but I can't. In a matter of a few years our school kids in science class will be correcting us on our old-fashioned notions about estrogens in this day. Actually it turns out your Grandma was right. Eat all your oatmeal and for lunch eat all your greens. The US soybean growers have really picked up on this and are promoting their product as the phytoestrogens that your body needs. However most of the soybeans grown in the US is tainted. They actually make me sick. But there are plenty of other sources of phytoestrogens. There is also a lot of hype and false information about phytoestrogens too among the "natural" crowd too. When it was discovered that my body and testicles had quit before I had competely matured (and I could not get hormone treatment: long story) I was warned that I should eat a lot of greens all the days of my life for my bones.

www.dietaryfiberfood.com/phytoestrogen.php

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens

www.ehow.com/facts_5405140_foods-high-p ... ogens.html

www.menopausetheblog.com/.../10-foods-w ... estrogens/

Hi Dev -

I think that the best source of Estrogogenic compounds is Estrogen. I am on Premarin for roughly 10 years now via an endochronologist and it definitely works. My body shape is a testament to that - - - major changes.

Prior to my involvement with Premarin, I played with phyto-estrogens. They did not work for me. But, Premarin/Conjucated Estrogens did the trick.

Danielle

ps - if you want to see pics, let me know and it can be arranged.

Taking vitamin K supplements are not a bad idea either. Plus along with calcium tablets I take the type of multi-vitamins that have greens (from the health food store). I generally buy things on sale. But I'm not sure that's always a good idea though. As soon as I use up my all of my phyto-estrogen pills I will be including "the pill" into my diet also, except quartered as I had described earlier. Also as far as the multi-vitamins are concerned probably the cheap generic stuff you get at the grocery store is just as good as the more expensive stuff that you get at the health store anyway. The problem with women's multi-vitamins is that they include iron which we should not have much of. And the problem with men's multi-vitamins is they have too much zinc and not enough calcium. So children's or else straight multi-vitamins would be better along with calcium, K, and premarin or whatever would be a better choice. One should be making sure that they get all of their nutrients from eating right rather than by taking pills in the first place BUT that's much easier said than done. Oh well.

Hi dev,

Good advice. I take a general purpose daily multi-vitaman along with a Calcium pill, and potassium (K) along with my daily dose of 1.25 mG Premarin. I may need to adjust those regimines as my T levels fall, but not sure.

Danielle

This is my own 2 cents worth and I'm NOT a doctor. But natal women need some testosterone in their "mix" to feel right. Mrs T went on HRT after menopause and needed some Testosterone in her combination. I think talking to someone about dialing in a true female mix is of great value to TS people like yourself. I think some TS women are so "anti" testosterone that they dial it down to abnormal levels and loose some of the benefits that Natal women have with a normal mix. Testosterone is not just "male" its the balance and amount that make us Male or Female. And btw men NEED Estrogen! Just not lots of it.

Note female levels of Testosterone are still very low in relation to normal male ones.

Hi,

Danielle (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:59 am I am in the process of becomming castrated. I have learned though reading here and at other venues that once castrated, some hormone level needs to be maintained for good health, emotionally and physically.

I have seen discussions describing Eunuchs going back on low dose Testosterone to level things out a bit - - - to improve both mental and physical health.

But, I am a transexual, and my hormone of choice is Estrogen/Premarin. I have been on that (1.25 mG/day) for around 10 years now.

My question is this: Does Estrogen/Premarin provide the necessary health benefits post castration as does low dosage Testosterone? Is the real story here perhaps that a human being must have some level of either Testosterone or Estrogen in order to enjoy good mental and/or physical health?

Put another way, does a genetic male who has been castrated need Testosterone if he is taking Estrogen? (I have a theory on this, but I do not want to bias the group with a simple theory.)

Does anybody have any theories or knowledge of this? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Danielle

Natal women DO have sex drives when they have healthy hormone levels. TS women should as well! Why short change yourself? Anyone who thinks transition should equal destruction of their sex drive should do transition in a new and improved way (I think...)

Quoting Erica Ann:

EricaAnn (imported) wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:03 am Once your testosterone levels have been reduced substantially by castration, you will see a big difference in the way that the estrogen affects you both mentally and physically. Your breast development will increase greatly as well as the development of the subdurial fat layer under your skin which soften your skin. You will also begin to see the effects of fat transfer in your body and will begin to develop hips and what we girls call a "mother's pouch" which is a little tummy below your naval. The final effects will be an increase in your hair density, lessening of your general body h

Danielle (imported) wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:04 am air and the softening of your facial features.

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Hi Erica,

Most of those things that you mentioned, I have already had occur via the Premaring for 10 years of steady use. The only thing that I have not experienced that I desire is a reduction of my body hair and a reduction in labido. I have had all of my beard removed via Electrolysis (expensive an

d time consuming and sometimes quite painful).

Danielle

Actually the body creates it's own testosterone out of progesterone and it's own estradiol out of it's own testosterone. The natural estradiol in women's bodies is actually derived from testosterone. The bodies of adult males do not create much estradiol and estriol out of the testosterone which all adult bodies produce, but adult women's bodies do. Women actually start out with natural testoserone and then it is converted into estradiol before most of it gets circulated into the blood supply. All of these estrogenic compounds however can be converted back and forth as needed by the body. Since the body also creates cortisol from progesterone, then probably progesterone is what we should really be having. This is converted into cortisol, testosterone, and other helpful estrogenic compounds for the heart and the bones, etc. However with a small amount of any one of these hormones the body can take whatever it wants and convert it into whatever it needs. The problem with taking large amounts of either testosterone or estr(ad)iol is that the body will use it one way going in and then likely the opposite way as it is passed through the blood supply the next time and you wind up with the "bearded big breasted lady syndrome".

Mrs T takes a cream with Progresterone, Estrogens and Testosterone and has no beaded lady issues.

Without HRT her levels are way below normal.

Obviously she's not shooting up with testosterone. By the way cortisol is also a good choice for preserving bone and heart tissue.

mrt (imported) wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:29 am Mrs T takes a cream with Progresterone, Estrogens and Testosterone and has no beaded lady issues.

Without HRT her levels are way below normal.

Is she happy with the HRT effects? Did the testosterone make her feel better, more sex drive, etc? How much does she use?

All that I'm just trying to say that when men (and women) who take way too much testosterone will probably wind up with their bodies producing too much estrogen too. This is because the pituatary glands arrange things in ratios rather than in quantities. It's up to the kidneys or liver to reduce overabundant quantities. Therefore whenever you have too much testosterone in your blood supply then your glands will turn right around and produce a certain ratio of that amount into estr(ad)iol, progesterone, cortisol, and many other compounds which we have no idea about and so forth. So as long as you have too much of one or the other in your bloodstream you will be getting too much of both testosterone AND estr(ad)iol. This is the basis for the "big-breasted bearded lady syndrome", --which is also probably a good title for one of the penectomy stories (that I never hardly read). Oh, and breasts actually grow only in relation to the genes that you inherit. So if none of your female relatives have to be wearing a shoulder to shoulder bolder holder then probably neither would you.

Yes, thats right and I agree. OD on Testosterone and you often just create too much Estrogen. Ditto the other way around. No, MrsT takes a very carefully adjusted mix that supposed to bring her back to where she was pre-menopause.

Yes she feels much better. No more 24:7 Anger issues. She can "think" clearly and her sex drive is back. I feel very blessed that we live in an era where this is treatable.

You've got me to thinking. I'm thinking that since my testosterone levels are typically would be between that of an adult male and an adult female and also since my estrogen levels are also typically between that of a man's and a woman's that I should just go ahead and combine a men's hormone cream along with that of a women's hormone cream and start using that instead. Probably 2 of 5 parts men's and 3 of 5 parts women's in order to offset the added T in the women's. This is because post-menstrual creams generally will only have enough for maintenance and not enough for developement and probably also for men's creams if they have that.

Now throw in no pituatary gland and try and balance the cortisol and testosterone etc. and see what fun you have. Its not easy and not near as good as what your own body should produce.

What hormones my own body should have been producing in the past it mostly never did after I was maybe fifteen years old or so. I had no idea my two under-glands had never matured and so here I am at over fifty years looking much younger than that and appearing to others as a young college or even high school aged male in a college town. As a male I am supposed to have a noticeable crossbrow and square jawline etc. and my hands aren't suppose to be small and soft but they are. So I guess I managed to have stayed a childrather than growing up. My voice is deeper than most females and therefore male. I guess I was too busy living and even enjoying my life to have taken notice. Others did and always wondered why the hell I had never bothered to date anyone even when I was the life of the party. Now I DO have two 'X' chromosomes which does mean that I was probably getting a good compliment of estradiol all along but it just wasn't enough to make me feminize much and yes I probably did have a good compliment of testosterone but that wasn't enough for much either. As far as cortisone is concerned I was thinking that I had a mild form of narcolepsy until I found out about that. Whenever I needed to take a nap, I REALLY DID NEED TO TAKE A NAP. I have fainted several times in my life. The last time I was so unable to find a place to lie down and collapsed on my way to go lie in the vehicle. They found absolutely nothing wrong with me. It was cortisone which apparently restabilizes during one of these episodes and the medics are unable to find the problem. What I had never understood until lately is that apparently certain activities (besides sex) require the use of more hormones and that sometimes the body can "crash". Coming off a flu and then going out into minus 20 degree weather after having possibly had too much cough medicine (the paramedics said it wasn't too much) and then trying to eat breakfast in a crowded place and having a lot on your mind (emotional distress) is just requiring way too much out of you hormonally. I crashed. Hopefully never again though.