Is a Eunuch a man

[lostemnatural (imported)]

Why is it that when a man looses or has removed his balls is not considered a man but becomes a eunich, yet a woman who looses or has removed her reproductive parts is still called a woman with no discrimination?

[punkypink (imported)]

I have read that in India they have created a "eunuch" gender entry on passports. India, and several other countries, are very open to a third sex. I think that we should all be open to whatever gender identity the individual has. The only opinion on your gender that matters in the end, is your own opinion.

The problem I've seen with societies that practice a "3rd sex" is that 1) they don't realise that physical sex itself really shouldn't matter anyway and that it should be about gender, and 2) there are 4th and 5th and 6th and 7th and 8th and 9th and 10th genders.... you get the idea. Finally, 3) often societies that practice a 3rd sex, FORCE their perception of a very rigid fixed 3rd sex on anyone who doesn't fit into either of the 2 main cisgendered spectrums, it's awful really.

These countries really aren't open, but rather are in fact, very conservative. The reason that a 3rd sex exists within their society is due more to dogmatic traditional and cultural beliefs than because they genuinely are open minded and understand gender and identity. Don't forget that India for example, often still carries out honour killings of women, and that frankly a lot of 3rd sex-ed people aren't actually 3rd sexed nor did they choose to end up outside of the 2 main spectrums by choice.

[punkypink (imported)]

I to tell people I am a eunuch as that is what i am and have no problem people knowing but I also see myself as a man.

There are 2 ways of looking at this frankly.

1) Eunuch as used as an adjective, meaning a word that is used to describe someone, but not define them. Examples of other adjectives are "white, black, chinese" (ethinicity) "tall, short, fat, thin" (body shape) etc.

2) Eunuch as a noun as being a gender identity that falls outside of the majority man woman spectrum. Man and woman are both also gender identities and nouns.

In your case, you'd be an eunuch man. The usage of english that denotes that an adjective preceeding a noun is perfectly logical and within acceptable usage.

[punkypink (imported)]

While I agree intellectually that it's what's between the ears that counts rather than what's between the legs in determining gender, still, if a "woman" comes into the ladies' room wearing jeans and a teeshirt, obviously having facial hair, a deep voice and no boobs, and "she" stands in a stall with the stall door half open to pee, I think I'd go find another restroom regardless of what "she" feels "she" is. Maybe just my personal hangup.

Sandi

speaking as a woman who fits most of your description, i think you're perhaps being a bit whimsical when you think that we're not frightened enough to death of being publicly embaressed as it is, to take great pains to avoid a situation like that ever happening, to the point of bordering on paranoia when we have to do something as basic as use the toilet. that was rather unkind of you, if I may be frank.

Edit: oh sorry perhaps i should have referred to myself as "woman" too.

[punkypink (imported)]

Is a MTF person a woman?

Is a FTM person a man?

When do they achieve those designations?

Frankly, when they were born.

Ok maybe not. It would have been girl and boy respectively till they reached whatever the legal age for adulthood is in whatever country they're in.

[C&TL2745 (imported)]

Why is it that when a man looses or has removed his balls is not considered a man but becomes a eunich, yet a woman who looses or has removed her reproductive parts is still called a woman with no discrimination?

As a woman who had a hysterectomy shortly after marrying my hubby over 20 years ago, maybe I can address that. I suppose the main reasons are that (1) there's no way for anyone to tell from external appearances, even when I'm nude, and (2) it doesn't render having sex impossible. In short, nobody knows I don't have a uterus unless I choose to tell them. I suppose the situation might be different with a woman who lost her ovaries before puberty, but that's really rare.

Sandi

[punkypink (imported)]

Why is it that when a man looses or has removed his balls is not considered a man but becomes a eunich, yet a woman who looses or has removed her reproductive parts is still called a woman with no discrimination?

Because this is a patriarchal society. The "pinnacle" of social standing is still to be a man, and anyone who doesn't fit men's ideal of what a man is, is summarily "demoted". Women are already "beneath" men in a patriarchal society, so men don't bother to give us a different term when a cisgendered woman loses part of her reproductive parts.

[punkypink (imported)]

As a woman who had a hysterectomy shortly after marrying my hubby over 20 years ago, maybe I can address that. I suppose the main reasons are that (1) there's no way for anyone to tell from external appearances, even when I'm nude, and (2) it doesn't render having sex impossible. In short, nobody knows I don't have a uterus unless I choose to tell them. I suppose the situation might be different with a woman who lost her ovaries before puberty, but that's really rare.

Sandi

Even when a woman loses a breast or 2 to breast cancer, you will seldom see them labelled as "not-a-woman". The reasons are far less to do with physical appearance and function, and more to do with the bias of society. Believe you me, if this was a matriarchal society, we wouldn't care less what a man has to be considered a man either, because they're not the "pinnacle" of society anymore.

Edit: oh sorry once again i forgot I should probably use "woman" instead...

[Hash (imported)]

A eunuch is a castrated man, just because I'm castrated that doesn't mean I'm not a man, though I prefer to be called a eunuch. I was born a man and though physically altered, it doesn't mean I'm not a man. It's chromosomes XY, of course it could be just ones opinion too. I believe the misunderstanding is the result of the ancient or historic meaning of the word eunuch. A man who was castrated in ancient times displayed the outward and obvious results of castration. He stopped having erections, stopped thinking about sex, put on weight, slowing beard growth, etc. They were dressed as eunuchs and became feminine in many ways. Some even were penectomized and some looked penectomized simply because their penises shrank, it appears that some eunuchs were required to be nude in the presence of their masters. Once castrated, these men became servants to their masters and if their masters had harems, they often looked after the women in the harems. There is not a lot of information as to whether eunuchs serviced the harem sexually. Certainly not with intercourse.

[scarnick (imported)]

Don 't feel bad. The guy is obviously a jerk.

[Elizabeth (imported)]

While I agree intellectually that it's what's between the ears that counts rather than what's between the legs in determining gender, still, if a "woman" comes into the ladies' room wearing jeans and a teeshirt, obviously having facial hair, a deep voice and no boobs, and "she" stands in a stall with the stall door half open to pee, I think I'd go find another restroom regardless of what "she" feels "she" is. Maybe just my personal hangup.

Sandi

That would be a very unlikely scenario. Transwomen are not hanging around women's restrooms in hopes of either catching a glimpse or letting a woman catch a glimpse of them. They are there to use the restroom. I am not sure you understand the implication of what you are saying.

I have a deep voice and sound like a man, but so does my mother in law who is continually called "sir" in person and on the phone. I also don't have "real" boobs. But what is that exactly? I mean I use breastforms, which are silicone breasts that go on the outside instead of inside. Lots of women have silicone breasts, both implanted and not implanted. Some appear not to have breasts at all. And again, not to single out my mother in law, but yes, she has facial hair too, as to many women. But still, when I use the restroom, it is the women's restroom I use.

I don't sneak around and try to peak at other women. I don't leave the door open so others can see me. And you know what? There is restroom etiquette in men's restrooms as well as women's. Men are not looking in stalls at other men, not even gay men. In fact, here in the US, men are expected to keep their head up, except to zip, and look forward. Talking is permitted as long as everyone just keeps looking forward. Just as women don't do this. Neither do transsexuals.

So if I have been driving all day, and I happen into a public restroom where you happen to be, you may be upset. I have a low voice, I would certainly have some facial hair growth noticeable at that point. And my boobs look pretty good. But I wouldn't particularly care that it upset you or any other natal female that I needed to use the restroom.

Elizabeth

[C&TL2745 (imported)]

....

So if I have been driving all day, and I happen into a public restroom where you happen to be, you may be upset. I have a low voice, I would certainly have some facial hair growth noticeable at that point. And my boobs look pretty good. But I wouldn't particularly care that it upset you or any other natal female that I needed to use the restroom.

Elizabeth

Thank you for the insight. I don't think I'd be upset having you in the restroom. My point was, rather, that a man who clearly looks, acts, dresses, and sounds like a man may call himself a woman, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy it. I have empathy for transpeople, but it wasn't transpeople that I had in mind.

Sandi

[devi (imported)]

The problem with this thread here is that there aren't hardly any true eunuchs.

(Actually I think that the rare 'XY' female is probably the most absolute form of eunuchism. -But it's doubtful that any of them would ever log into this site in the first place.)

[devi (imported)]

'XY' CAIS female that is are the most absolute eunuch of all since these persons are actually pre-born eunuchs. Not just born-eunuchs with undescended testicles and very little masculine developement from birth but rather they are pre-born eunuchs that hadn't even begun to start any male developement whatsoever. And then there are varying degrees of 'XY' PAIS which could either be pre-born or else born eunuchs.

[punkypink (imported)]

Thank you for the insight. I don't think I'd be upset having you in the restroom. My point was, rather, that a man who clearly looks, acts, dresses, and sounds like a man may call himself a woman, but that doesn't mean I necessarily buy it. I have empathy for transpeople, but it wasn't transpeople that I had in mind.

Sandi

What about a genetic female dressed, looks, acts and sounds like a guy in the restroom? What if it was a cisgendered genetic female who's a drag king?

[littletits (imported)]

I have been giving further thought to whether a eunuch is a man or not. He is definitely a human male. A steer is a male bovine but is not a bull. A gelding is a male horse but not a stallion and so on. A castrated man is a eunuch. I would be offended if my friends thought of me as a man,which I used to be,but now clearly am not. I do not, nor should anybody, feel diminished by being a Eunuch and I belive that any moron who insults a Eunuch and thinks of himself as superior is unsure of his own sexuality and feels threatened by what for him is his most primitave fear,castration.

[C&TL2745 (imported)]

What about a genetic female dressed, looks, acts and sounds like a guy in the restroom? What if it was a cisgendered genetic female who's a drag king?

I have no idea, Emily. I imagine that I'd find another place to go potty in the case where a genetic female appeared as a guy. There's an old saying, "If it looks like a duck and quack's like a duck...." But this is all theoretical. I've never had it actually happen. Sometimes I react differently from the way I imagine I would. And I'm not sure what cisgendered means. There are some women who look like women but make me uncomfortable with their actions, so it's not just a gender thing.

Please understand, also, that I was discussing my (theoretical) reactions specifically in the context of encountering people in the ladies' restroom. There are many people I like, and even have affection for, whom I would not want to find in the stall next to me in the restroom. In other contexts, I get along fine with people of all sorts. I have no issues with people who look male or female or androgynous, be they straight, gay or not interested in sex at all. I'm not drawn to people who are rude, cruel or are looking for a fight, regardless of appearance.

Sandi

[Mac (imported)]

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[Losethem (imported)]

Gosh, this thread has gone way off topic.

--LT

[janekane (imported)]

The word, "man" has so many varied and divergent definitions that I have a simple remedy regarding whether a eunuch is, or is not, a man.

I ask the eunuch.

If I were to be asked, I would reply, "What meaning of 'eunuch' and what meaning of 'man' do you prefer that I use in answering your question?"

Am I a man? Yes and no and whatever. Am I a eunuch? I guess so. Am I something else? I suppose so.

What am I?

I am a valid person.

Back on topic?

[punkypink (imported)]

I have no idea, Emily. I imagine that I'd find another place to go potty in the case where a genetic female appeared as a guy. There's an old saying, "If it looks like a duck and quack's like a duck...." But this is all theoretical. I've never had it actually happen. Sometimes I react differently from the way I imagine I would. And I'm not sure what cisgendered means. There are some women who look like women but make me uncomfortable with their actions, so it's not just a gender thing.

Please understand, also, that I was discussing my (theoretical) reactions specifically in the context of encountering people in the ladies' restroom. There are many people I like, and even have affection for, whom I would not want to find in the stall next to me in the restroom. In other contexts, I get along fine with people of all sorts. I have no issues with people who look male or female or androgynous, be they straight, gay or not interested in sex at all. I'm not drawn to people who are rude, cruel or are looking for a fight, regardless of appearance.

Sandi

Let's just hope so hmm? Let's just hope so.

Personally, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone who looked like a guy walked into the female toilet. Unless he actually tried something funny, I am frankly not fussed. It might be odd, granted, but that's about it.

And also, do put yourself in the shoes of others in future and see how they may have felt about something you have said, to see if they're really being rude, cruel or looking for a fight, or if you've said something that is genuinely hurtful that you may not have realised could be to them.

[devi (imported)]

Sorry this has probably been on here before. I was a bit hurt yesturday when someone I didnt know in a group said I was no loger a man and he ment it and was realy negative towards me. I stood up for us all and said I am among the elite group (then through my pint at him not realy) So ok may be here is correct my nuts are gone which iam still very happy about but I have 3 children, a dick, like sex and feel and look the same apart from a slightly smaller bulg in the trousers.

So officialy what am I apart from special and amongst freinds.

Thanks

I'd think if you are a father and you had been able to have three children and you had raised them up as their father, then beyond any doubt whatsoever you are a man. No question. And elderly men always will lose their reproductive capacity for fatherhood anyway. You're just a step ahead of your peers is all. With most other eunuchs it's not always easy to define whether a eunuch should be a male or female within our binary society. But just because you've lost the jewels doesn't mean anything given that you've recieved all of your masculine developement and have had children and even much more importantly have raised them too.

[bobover3 (imported)]

Punkypink has persuaded me in her many posts that gender is an identity, not an anatomy. If you feel like a man, and have played a man's part in society, then you are a man. That said, a man who didn't know you might think that opting for castration signified your rejection of masculinity, or at least a deep ambiguity about your identity. Many people, maybe most people, can not tolerate ambiguity. They prefer clear and simple identifications that do not require thought and do not provoke anxiety. What sort of group was this? Had you any reason to expect this man to understand your choice? Do not expect ordinary people, unprepared for the extraordinary, to be as accepting as they should be.

[Elizabeth (imported)]

I played the part of a man in society and that did not make me a man. So I would keep the definition simple. You are whatever you believe yourself to be. You have no control; however, if others believe you to be something else. In the end, what you believe about yourself is your reality.

Elizabeth

[Hash (imported)]

Well, since the original subject has diverged, I'm wondering if you call a female who had a hysterectomy including having her ovaries removed, a eunuch? It's logical and though you might not see many or any outward signs of the ovarian castration, there are a number of changes that are similar to a man being castrated. Hot flashes, lack of sexual desire, depression, etc.