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OK, I'm an historian, and I know that what I'm about to say is going to get right up some people's noses. The US has done some really bad things on the World's stage in the past 150 years. There have been all kinds of justifications, all kinds of promises, and all kinds of injustices. We (the US) cannot make those go away with a mere wave of a Presidential order. What we can do is help people out as much as we can, and if their government isn't helping them, take the help directly to the people.

The first thing we have to do is to stop differentiating between the corrupt regeimes that say they are all for us and are secretly (or openly) oppressing their people and those out there who are doing the exact same thing but saying that they oppose us.

That said, the US is still one of the best countries in the world. It does have some flaws, some areas that could be improved, but over all, it is still a great country. Men like Bin Laden hate us because we are great, but we have given him and those who follow him enough to use to justify the attacks on America simply with all the broken promises we have made in the past 50 years.

Thank you for listening to my rant. A true patriot is someone who loves their country despite the problems, and works to fix them.

Ravenwings,

Well put.

I call myself a patriot, I think the USA is great and love living here. Hell I have lots of ideas on how to express my patriotism. My Apartment is basically decorated in red, white & blue. I'm getting my first tattoo (American eagle & flag on upper leg) this weekend to demonstrate my patriotism. I've got other Ideas for tattoos to display my pride in America, right now thinking about a tattoo on my full back as a tribute to America and the 9/11 tragedy, and how patriotic would I be having my dick tattooed with red an white stripes and sac done in blue with white stars. A patriotic poker :tongueout

I love America even though I know there are problems that need to be resolved. I don't think it will be easy to wipe out all the corruption that occurs in the government. Especially after the last president demonstrated that you can get off real easy for lies corruptions, etc.

Well I'll stop ranting and making any more comments to piss people off.

Ravenwings

As a History buff myself I would agree with you. We have not ever been in a war we did not want to be in. We do give aid to country's to fit our own needs. Granted this is true. I still think the good that we do out weights the bad.

Example, the peace corps, not much more needs to be said on this one. When a country has a disaster be it volcano, typhoons, hurricanes, earthquake, or what ever, what country is always the first to offer help, to send aid, aid in food water medicine housing, clothing, you name it.

I can't and don't always agree with what goes on in Washington as a matter of fact I don't think I have voted for any president that has won in years. I still vote. The American people have a sprite that is different from any place else, any place in the world. There are a lot of wonderful country on this old earth that I have only read about and a couple that I have been able to visit. I would never wish to insult any of them.

I think that part of our arrogance comes from knowing that we are a country of philanthropist, all of us are that way, 911 proved that to me more then ever by the amount of money that was donated. No other country on earth has done that, at the scale that Americans give to my knowledge.

It hurts when you know a lot of your tax dollars are going to aid to other country's and then get sand kicked in your face for it.

Remember the words of one of our presidents of the past. "You can please some of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but don't expect to please all of the people all of the time." Abe Lincoln. His words we true then and now. No matter what we do or say, somebody is going to be pissed at us, that's just the way it is. And at this point in my life I would just as soon the USA stopped all aid to all country's, let some of the other rich proud country's of the world pick up the slack. For that matter we should get out of NATO and the United Nations, we no longer need to belong to them everybody hates that we are in it. Pull our forces back and just protect our shores and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. OK before you go into shock, what does history tell you, If the USA did that there would be a world war in no time, how can I make such a statement? Simple, history repeats its self. The world has always had a tyrant, and if other country's wish to look at us that way, I am ok with it. Hopefully we do more good then bad.

The best thing about our country is we are made up of a little of everything, we come from every country in the world speak every language, we are every color, and we are every religion. There are others that can make that claim, but not many.



OK I am a flag waver

I do agree with much of what you are saying. Though, I think that we should remain in the UN and to try and help people as much as we can. If you get a chance, read "Struggle for the Soul of the 21st Century." I think it is still on the BBC web site. It was a speach given by former President Clinton last year about the rise of terrorism and tribalism in the world. In there he mentions that under his administration a programme was begun that gave out microloans to people in developing countries. This money was almost always paid back with interest and helped to build up the economies of those areas it was started in. Unfortunately, the current administration did not continue that programme.

Secretary General Annan of the UN told Africa point blank that 'we cannot expect everyone else to help us out until we help ourselves.' He said that at the first meeting of the African Union, which is based upon the European Union. I think that the world needs to hear a lot more of that, to be honest.

In the past we have tried isolationism, and it did not work. Durring the Cold War, we interfered in everyone's afares and that didn't work. We need to tread a light path between those extreames. Unfortunately, yes, we are arrogant, and not just because we are so philanthropic. We have always been this way; it is a legacy of Manifest Destiny. To me, it is time to put aside the idea that we are the greatest and there can be no better. Rome felt that way, and it was destroyed. Britian felt that way, and its empire came tumbling down. We are at the point that Britain was after WWI, slidding downward in the world power game.

There are many ways to go, but I feel that we are already neck deep in the problem as it is. If we pull out of everywhere, then we will be hated just that much more. And when the next attack occurs, we won't have anyone to help us track down the people who did it because everyone will be turned against us.

But then, this is my oppinion, and you have yours. As Voltaire said "I may disagree with what you say, but I shall defend unto my death your right to say it."

First of all, welcome to our community.

Next, I have a bone to pick with you, (so to speak). You say that...

...but we have given him [binLaden]

RavenWings (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:57 am and those who follow him enough to use to justify the attacks on America simply with all the broken promises we have made in the past 50 years.

Well, I suppose that we should just grease up the 'ol bunghole and bend over the 'ole barrell and say here, Mr. binLaden, come and fuck us over some more. We need it, real bad! But, please, SIR, would it be to much for us to ask you for just one little kiss before you 'put it to' all of us bitches again?

We Americans really like for you to come over here and knock down tall buildings in big cities, kill women, children, crash domestic air liners and terrorize the civilians just to make us feel guilt for how we have treated the Arabs, especially the ones from your home country of Saudia Arabia.

Oh, Mr binLaden. How can you ever forgive the American Oil companies for making you and your whole family multi-millionaires with our filthy American dollars supplied mostly by the working class of America trying to make an honest living commuting to work and such?

Would it put us in better stead if we took a platoon of Marines and nullified them and sent them to be the foot servants of your noble Al-Quada?

I suppose that next you will expect us to actually believe that it is our own faults that America has been attacked and offer to pay all Arabs $$ reparations $$. If so, I will start the fund by sending Paolo 50 cents on Pay Pal.

Perhaps Kristoff will correct me if I am wrong, but there is a DSMIII classification for this type of twisted reasoning. I won't get into the technicalities, but blaming the victims for a crime committed against them is a sign of mental illness. Now, I didn't say that you were sick,,,,well,,,,not really. But if it flies like a Pigeon and coos to us while it shits on patriotic statues, then, WELL! 'NUFF SAID!

So, with that, you didn't really mean what I took you to mean in your quote, did you?

If so, actually, I just love discussions with terrorist sympathizers...but then again, I love T-bone steaks and open pit hog roasts, too.

Why do you think that they call me A-1?

Ah, you don't have any religous rules against eating pork, do you? Cows are a little big to roast in a pit.

Hey! I have a GREAT idea! Perhaps we can meet sometime at a Indiana country farmhouse that I know. It is somewhere where we can discuss this in more detail undisturbed over an open pit hog roast?

You can just fly into Indianapolis International and then go to the zoo and try to kill a lion or two just for the hell of it! I will meet you at the Orangutan cage so that you can have a chance to converse with some of your close relations. Maybe they can tell you that real primates do not kill each other for no reason.

Not to worry, I think that if you fly first class nobody will notice as long as you break down and bathe first. Oh, please leave your box cutters at home this time, O.K.? I wouldn't want some pilot to off you with his '38 because that would just ruin my chance to have you for dinner.

A-1

Erik,

First of all, have you ever been to Canada? Ever met any Canadians? Do you honestly think that they WANT to be part of the US? Heck, Canada is ahead of the US on many social issues. Besides, if we started a war of global domination, Russia will bomb us into the ground. So will China, and Europe.

Nah...The way to take over the world isn't to conquer everyone. It is to make everyone like you. Right now, the most respected 'nation' on the planet is the European Union. Just about everyone wants to be like them. The US is becoming increasingly marginalized.

Of course, all of that schpeel is based upon the idea that you weren't being sarcastic. I'm very bad at spotting sarcasm. I find English to be very confusing at times.

Welp, off I go...bye

RavenWings (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:58 pm Of course, all of that schpeel is based upon the idea that you weren't being sarcastic. I'm very bad at spotting sarcasm. I find English to be very confusing at times.

ME too.

But, seriously, folks..

I do not think that global domination is what anybody wants. At least not in the USA, at any rate. Well, with that being said I want everyone to think about Ravenwings quote...

RavenWings (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:58 pm Nah...The way to take over the world isn't to conquer everyone. It is to make everyone like you.

...which cuts right to the bone of the present world situation.

The sooner that all groups and their leaders realize that this is never going to happen, then the sooner we can have world peace. The groups in the world are making us like them. Pugnacious! The only difference is that after they lose, and the USA wins, the USA will go back to what it was before.

Since I, personally, have faith that many fanatics do not have the intelligence to realize how futile their desire to force America to kow-tow to their obscene demands is, I sincerely believe that they all must die. If there is something wrong with that, then so be it! That is one belief that I will die with and I won't die easy.

Until they demonstrate tolerance it will simply be a "kill or be killed situation" I am strongly opinionated that they should die first.

What is wrong with that?

Ravenwings also says...

RavenWings (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:58 pm Right now, the most respected 'nation' on the planet is the European Union.

Which is "loosely" modeled after the United States. If you look at governmental structures the European Union can be paralled with the U.S. federal government and the government of each nation can be compared with the state governments of the U.S.

It is not the same, of course, but, look at the structures.

It is obvious that as this European Union goes on and gets stronger they will be a great world power. But they are not there yet. War is a terrible thing. In a war for world dominance in the present day world there could be no winners.

In a war for world dominance I look to the teachings of the martial arts. It is always easier to defend ones' self than to attack another. America will never dominate the world. But America will never be dominated by outside influences.

This is something that is historically documented time after time. Just look what a country like Viet Nam has done. Over 20 years of battle with the French and then almost 20 years of battle with America. Through it all they were never dominated. Their autonomy came at a terrible price. They paid it without so much as a whimper. It was a war of mis-understanding. We were fighting against Communism. They were fighting for survival. I think that we all fail to realize the gravity of that time of history and the lesson that it holds for all.

They did not conquer America when America pulled out, but neither did America conquer them, either. The price that America was having to pay to accomplish its goal was just too steep. The people of America would not tolerate it. Perhaps the wisest statement that I have heard recently is Ravenwings...

RavenWings (imported) wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:58 pm Nah...The way to take over the world isn't to conquer everyone. It is to make everyone like you.

You cannot be taking over the world by war. World dominance comes by negotiation. Therefore, there will never be a total control of the world. The people and governments of the world can only be controlled by degree. You cannot dominate somebody until you can get into their heads and force them to think in a certain way. The historical background for this is the fact that the Spanish Inquisition failed to convert everyone to Roman Catholicism. It should be quite obvious to even the most idiotic human that there will never be a world religion.

Guess who won the "war" in Afghanistan. IT WAS NOT America. It was instead, the Northern Alliance. THINK ABOUT IT!

This is where the Arabic peoples have gone wrong. Bringing violence and terror to America has worsened their world position and not helped them at all. In short, the fanaticism of the Islamic fanatics has given both them and Islam a black eye in most parts of the world.

America has always been willing to negotiate. Sometimes what we have to say is not what the world wants to hear, but we are always willing to talk. We are willing to fight, too. America is strong enough to accept the ramifications of that decision, too.

Think about it.

A-1

Boy, I DO love to ramble, what?

Maybe I didn't word that right. I didn't mean make carbon copies of the US, but more pursue a policy that would make most countries feel more amicable towards us, while saying things like 'you really need to take care of your own afares. I never said it all made any sense.

Of course, I just ended up in a conversation that if I wasn't so bloody tired, I'd be angry about. Mostly, just one of those ignorant bullshits who thinks that just because he knows a few small number of people in one area that means that everyone else is like that. One who has bought into the idea of war with Iraq hook, line and sinker. He cannot seem to understand that what I was talking about was not the way in which we were going to go to war, just that people are not behind this war, either here in the US or in the world in general. And that if we do go to war with Iraq again, all we'll do is anger everyone.

I think that this will be my last post on this subject. I'm tired of debating it, defending myself, or getting upset over it. In the words of Madeleine Kahn "I'm tired"

Everyone have a good day and enjoy yourselves.

And yes, A-1, the Northern Alliance won the war with US and British support. If one looks at the EU one sees the possibilities of a negotiated world peace, but it is a slow process and can take years to arrange. Mbecki of South Africa is trying this in Africa, and Fox of Mexico is trying this in Latin America. If it works, then it will be the bigest evolution in governance seince democracy came into full being. It is a long road to go, and a long time to come before much of it can be done, but it will probably happen eventually.

Please get your rest, but stay here with us.

No place ever suffered because of diversity.

What the future holds in store, I cannot say. What I can say is that we have learned lessons form history.

After WWI and before WWII saw the rise of fascism in Europe. The world sat quietly by and watched the rise of Adolph Hitler. Joseph Stalin of Russia found out that there could be no negotiated peace with him. We soon ended up in a war. Despite popular opinion, it was a war that America DID NOT want, but ended up with anyway. We did not declare war until after we were attacked. Remember Pear Harbor?

Flash forward.

Albert Einstein said regarding the Atomic Bomb...

"...for there is no secret. And where there is no secret there can be no defense..."

Sadam has consistantly thumbed his nose at the world. He is comparable to Hitler in many ways. He has practiced genocide against the Kurds. He has invaded his neighbor Kuwait. He went to war with Iran. He is a despicable despot to his own country.

As an American I could care less what happens to him. I would suppose that those who I trust that are running America know much more about him that do I. If he needs to be taken out of office then they are better judges that I am.

With the echo of Albert Einstein's words ringing in your ears surely in your heart of hearts you know that we as humanity cannot stand by and watch Saddam get the capacity to manufacture weapons of mass destruction and do nothing.

To do so would certainly threaten the lives of ALL of those living in or around the Middle East. The area is primarily Islamic, if that is of any consequence. Clearly, the Islamic Clerics who run Iran know that the first victim of atomic attack would most likely be Iran. They cannot trust this pit viper any more than Stalin could trust Hitler. We cannot allow this man, Saddam Hussain, to do what it takes to become the Adolph Hitler of the 21st century.

Either he allows UN inspections, or he must go.

It is that simple.

So call me ignorant if you will, but I ain't no fucking idiot!

A-1

Oh, A-1, I do agree with what you are saying. I would like to see Saddam removed from power by one means or another. I am not entirely certain that he has any large amount of WOMD on hand. He would have to smuggle those components in, and right now, neither Iran nor Turkey are too keen on seeing that. But, he has probably managed to get some items into the country.

I just finished a course in Political Terrorism. The group I had to do a profile on was the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command. In recent years, the PLFP-GC has managed to get a lot of weapons for Hamas and Hizballah through the mountains of Turkey and Iran. They have a limited capability on the front of WOMD, but they may be able to procure some of the technology that Saddam needs to build these weapons.

Right now, I beleive that we need a lot more caution in dealing with this than we are currently showing. If we hadn't alienated so many in that area already, I, personally, would find someone who could assassinate Saddam. Then again, I don't exactly fight clean.

The US missed a golden opportunity back in October when Osama's son showed up in Pakistan. All we needed to do was caputure the boy, and tell his father to surrender. First of all, by doing this, we prove just how much of a coward Bin Laden is (especially after we parade his son around on TV), and then give Bin Laden 48 hours to turn himself in or we broadcast his son's castration. This also has the effect of hurting his image in the eyes of the Arab nations. The Soviets did this back in '79.

What I urge is caution, simple as that. Most Middle East leaders want to see Saddam gone as well, but they fear what could replace him.

How the future will go? I think that it will eventually get better. Eventually, people like Bin Laden will fade away. BUT, that is a long ways away. I think that the US has a lot of amends to make in the world, but I also think that we can do that. We must come to understand that we cannot foist our own beleifs on others and that democracy for a people with no history of democracy is always a dicy issue.

I beleive that tolerance is the best path in the world, and that hatred is not something to be passed on. Unfortunately, this is not how many people view the world.

Well, that seems enough for now. Thanks for letting me ramble on.

RavenWings,

The best opportunity to remove Saddam Hussain, once he got into power was Desert Storm. Unfortunately, the Allies blinked.

I would like to thank you for bringing a little reasoned argument into this debate. Having listened to the utter crap written by A-1 and the denigration of any person from another country who dared to criticise the US I am glad that someone is prepared to put the other side.

Yes there are a lot of countries which have received aid from the US. The UK is included in this list too, but we are one of the few which have actually repaid the debt, in spite of the fact that the US has screwed us at every opportunity.

A-1 may not realise, but the US was behind Saddam Hussain taking power in Iraq and one of the reasons was to dilute the influence of the UK which at that time was a major player in the country. The US knew about his activities for many years before they finally condemned it publicly.

I regret the fact that our Prime Minister gives a very good impression of being President Bush's poodle, but I agree that of the possible choices of ally the US is the only real option. This country will continue to support yours for as long as there is a considered course and a moral basis on which to proceed.

What A-1 is doing, is shroud waving, totally disregarding the fact that the US has filled plenty of other people's shrouds. All that can do is to prolong any conflict. No right thinking person can attempt to justify September 11th, any more than they can Mei Lai - but I forgot, that massacre was not Americans it was carried out by them - Lt. Calley if I remember correctly. The US did not deserve that attack but taking the sort of indiscriminate revenge advocated by A-1 is not justified, either.

No, you do NOT have to bend over and allow yourself to be fucked by Al-Quaeda - but you should not expect to be able to do the fucking without consequences! No country is perfect, a little restraint, every now and then could stop things getting out of hand.

LOL

Hello Collin,

I do try to be rational and try to be very well informed. Not to spark any arguments, but I do read a lot of different news sources, and I watch the BBC World New.

The unfortunate fact is that the US feels hurt and bewildered by what happened. Of course, a number of us kind of expected this would happen eventually. I said at one point that the US did not start this 'War on Terrorism' simply because countries such as Britain, Germany, Spain, Israel, etc. had been waging this war for a long time.

And yes, the US helped Saddam get into power. Heck, the US has never really managed to put into power anyone who was either stable or kind. My great-grandfather, Ramon Antonio Delgado y Carbonell, protested the constant American intervention in the Dominican Republic. As far as anyone in the family has been able to determine, upon his return to the DR he 'disappeared' into one of Trajio's jails. There are a few rumours that he may have managed to get out of the country with the rest of the family, but we just do not know. Eventually, such men go away. Trajio did, Quaddaffi is in the process of doing so.

I have been monitoring what is going on in Parliament lately, and it seems that Blair is doing his best to back away from a solid stance behind the US. This is a tough thing for him to do, to be honest. How to stay freinds with a country that is as mentally unstable as the US is right now while not becoming a syncophant. Over all, I like what Blair is doing, but sometimes the closeness to the US is rather unnerving.

Watching the world stage, I constantly see where the US is being very quietly snubbed, such as Russia's cooperation with Iran over nuclear power. Putin said something about how the US gave Israel all of that tech as well.

I could say a lot more, but I need to be going. I am as well informed as I can be on world issues and politics. I look to Europe now as being the leading light in the world today, mostly because it is being blunt about how everyone needs to start taking care of themselves. And yes, while 9/11 was a tragedy, it is not a justification for the slaughter of others.

I am an historian, and one of the most talented in a generation (not to be modest or anything). I try to look at all sides and all angles. I also try to be as objective as possible.

Bye all

Colin,

Damned right the USA is not perfect.

I am enjoying the international flavor of this discussion.

Let us keep it up. Maybe you all might be able to improve me. That is really what I am after.

Say, what did you all think of those web sites a few posts back.

Do any of you read arabic? What about you, Ravenwings? I am intersted in the discussions there but I am linguistically challenged.

I recall that the USA did help Sadam a lot during the Iraq-Iran war. But Saddam is an opportunist, and that is only a minor problem. I venture to say that every politician in America is also an opportunist.

Do you recall the story of Gerald Bull, the Canadian and the "so-called" Super-Gun? Who do you think killed him? There has been a lot of speculation that it was the Moussad, but I have never seen any proof.

Looking forward to your response.

A-1

je parlez francais un peau. Je ne parlez pas arabique. Translated, I speak French a little. I do not speak Arabic. Sorry, A-1, but that is how it is. I'm planning on taking German this upcoming semester. Unfortunately, they don't teach any really exciting modern languages here at our local college. I wanted to go to UGA, but I couldn't get in. And I, too, am enjoying the conversation.

So, NEWS FLASH (Opens her overcoat ), Iraq is setting up meetings with the UN weapons inspectors as a prelude to allowing them access to the country. How well and how long this will work is unknown, but lets go with the flow here. Of course I love what one person said, 'the lower the stock market, the more chance we have of going to war with Iraq.'

Just to throw out this rather divisive issue- I truely beleive that Bush is after war with Iraq in order to boost his approval ratings. Trouble is, only 33% of Americans favour going to war with Iraq unconditionally. The other 74% favour going to war only if Saddam attacks someone else or there is a proven link between Saddam and 9/11. (all statistics are thanks to the Gallup Organization) The feeling in a lot of the world is that Bush is bent upon finnishing what his 'daddy' didn't. So, maybe what needs to be done is not talk about war openly, but to build the case against Saddam and prove to the world that he must be taken out as a danger to the rest of the world.

Well, the Islamist regime in Iran is slowly crumbling. If we can stay out of that argument, we may actually see an end to Islamist extreamists as thier only victorious country falls appart.

Well, I'm off to bed, night all

Ravenwings

I was being extreamly sarcastic.

And as a matter of fact I have been to Canada many times in my life and in a lot of ways Canada is the same as the USA, and in some ways the USA is like Canada. I even rememebr reading a local paper once while in Canada and it had a poll in it and a supriing 45% of the peopel polled sia dthey would like to see the USA and Canada become one country. Saying the merger would help both countries.

You are new to the board and do not know me so eevn thougth I felt insulted by yoru comments to me, I shall not hodla grudge.

Have a nice day.

I have found that a year or two of 3.5 GPA or better will allow one to transfer to any University in America.

Georgetown would probably be my pick if I were you because of their excellent programs in the fields in which you have interest.

From what you ave told us International Studies would be more up your alley than history.

Colin, as always, thanks for the critical input. Why did you wait for so long?

Let's keep up this conversation as it is a lively one and I am sure that it is interesting for others, also.

Erik, no apoligies necessary. I was sarcastic also, but it was done in a way that is hard to argue with.

So, I am sorry if I offended, but I do believe a lot of what I have said.

Re: Sadam and UN inspections.

This man plays cat and mouse better than anyone else in the world today. If hs has made noises about U.N. inspections, he is doing it as a stalling tactic. His strategy is a huge shell game.

One thing for sure, in a constantly changing world Saddam Hussain is a constant that may be relyed upon to stay the same way. He will never change until he assumes room temperature.

Well, good night!

A-1

A-1, of course Saddam is doing this kind of trickery. He'll probably allow weapons inspectors back in sometime around October. Actually, the real question isn't weather or not he HAS WOMD, but will lifting the sanctions allow him to get them more readily. You see, I'm not sure that he has them in any great quantity simply because of the difficulties of getting the materials needed to create them. Rumsfeld's claim of 'mobile laboratories' is baseless. Has the man ever tried to create two million units of anthrax in the back of a truck as it bounces around the country side? Conversely, the British say that he does have some WOMD and I trust their data a lot more than I trust the American. James Bond aside, I've heard CIA agents praise the British MI agents for their abilities. One former CIA agent said of the CIA that 'a CIA agent will only get to meet a member of Al-Quaida if he walks in the door of his office in Carachi.' The CIA has no competent field agents fluant in any Middle Eastern language who can pass for an Arab or any other ethnic group. This does not mean that MI6 has had a lot of luck penetrating most of these groups. The British managed to get a few agents into the lower levels of Al-Quaida and other groups, but many, such as Hizballah, are kinship based, and it takes a great deal of fanatasism to get into the higher ranks of these organizations. (Did I mention that I just finished a class on Political Terrorism with one of the best experts in the field?) So, what it comes down to is the that I trust our foreign allies intellegence services a lot more than I trust any of ours. In the days following 9/11, most of Europe managed to capture and even prosicute just about every member of Al-Quaida that they knew of. Partially because they took to heart what Ahmed Shah Masoud said back in April of last year. Masoud, the late leader of the Northern Alliance, went to the UN and warned the world that Al-Quaida was planning something very big against the west. He knew that one target was going to be in Europe- probably the EU parliament- and another was to be in the US- probably the White House. The Trade Center was actually a secondary target that was chosen when European security became so tight that it was impossible to carry out even a small attack on anyone. (that's thanks to Arthur Kent of the History Channel who did a wonderful show on Afghanistan, which he's been covering for the past 20 years.) Masoud's assassination, which was 9/9, was probably the message to begin the attack.

The question now is really, is going after Saddam going to cost us more in the long run, or less? To be honest, I think it will cost us more than we really can afford, and not just monitarily. I really would look at finding another way of taking him out, and only then, if all else fails, build a case against him in the court of world oppinion. All that said, I just wish that there was more caution in dealing with Saddam. What the administration seems to lack in understanding is that any invasion is gong to cost a lot of American lives. There really isn't any way to avoid it. Even the opposition forces within Iraq are not with us in an invasion.

OK, I'm about done rambling. Incidentally, just so you all know, I do have a minor learning disability, that is why my spelling is so terrible. As for my gramatical structure....well, I think that either I've spent too much time reading old documents, or some past lives are seeping through. I certainly do have a gramatical structure that dates back centuries. Sorry, I've done the best I can to compenstate for all of these problems, but short of talking like an idiot, there isn't much I can do.

Thanks, and until later

I understand that it is difficult to spell.

After my degree in Mathematics and Physics, my spelling went to hell so to speak. Now my math is rusty and my spelling is atrocious so you see that you cannot win.

I do not worry to much about any type of presence of a disability. I have fingers like the ends of ball bats so it is difficult for me to type.

Steven J. Cannell (sp?) who has written many telelvision dramas and weekly detective series for Television is said to be dyslexic.

So, disabilities are a problem only if you let them be a problem.

you say that

RavenWings (imported) wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:37 pm You see, I'm not sure that he has them in any great quantity simply because of the difficulties of getting the materials needed to create them. Rumsfeld's claim of 'mobile laboratories' is baseless. Has the man ever tried to create two million units of anthrax in the back of a truck as it bounces around the country side?

In the part of the world where I live there is a lot of methamphetimines being manufactured in clandestine home operations.

About the only way to stop it is to have the grocery stores keep track of their sales. They have ingenious ways to do this. One is by offering discounts if you get an bar-coded card. This way, they have the address of everyone and they have the records of how much they buy.

About the only ingredient that you cannot buy is anhydrous ammonia. In the area farms it is used as a source of nitrogen and sprayed into the ground from time to time. So this they steal from the farmers.

The point of this is that it is possible to manufacture some chemical weapons in mobile laboratories but I am not sure of the particulars.

For the most part you are right, though. Many deadly substances have to be made in strictly controlled environments. With this being said, when Saddam avoids these inspections, which most believe will show little, he looks like he is hiding something.

If, however, he allows the inspections, he loses face and becomes less respected in the Arab world. It is a dilemma that he has brought upon himself. He should have been more prudent.

Well, hindsight is always 20-20, as they say. The problem is that if Saddam doesn't cooperate, and soon, he will be facing a war because America is tired of him and the whole situation and many citizens have "blood in their eyes" so to speak.

He better believe that the civilians in America will stand behind Geroge W. Politics or no, Saddam is in a lot of trouble.

As far as paying a price goes, America has many expensive weapons of war. They work very well. America conducts war much differently than they used to. Saddam's military in 1992 was arguably the strongest in the area if not the world, but his technology was not sufficient to match America. I believe that if a war comes this will still be the case. Iraq will fall. I am sure that some group in Iraq similar to the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan will come to power at that point.

Saddam will face the same fate as Slobodan Milokivic (Sp) if captured alive.

Inaccurate, maybe, but that is how I see it.

I do not believe that George W. will back down. Unless the UN inspections go with out problems I feel that we will see war in Iraq again. I cannot say that I agree or disagree with the prospect, but I fear that it is coming and is unavoidable because of the personalities of the leaders involved.

What do you think?

A-1

I agree, A-1, about a lot of that. I was more pointing out the difficulties of manufacturing a lot of these chemical and biological weapons. I know that it is possible to make some of the simple stuff in small batches in home or truck labs. Problem is, storing a lot of it in readily available places. Some of the problem is that the quantities needed to affect a large population require a very large storage facility, and that is very hard to hide. The other problem is that, as I said, our intellegence apparatus is not the best in the world. We tend to hit a lot of unrelated places while doing our bombing and missle runs.

Will there be war in Iraq again? Probably. I think that it is inevitable. I just think that the administration has to do a damn good job proving its case or it isn't going to survive the end of the war intact. Congress is adamant about what conditions need to be present in order to take out Saddam, and right now, they do not see any evidence of that existing. I think that one thing that could get Arab backing is one of those things we aren't too comfortable with. We need to start by pointing out that we put him in power, and that we feel that we should remove him from power for what he has done to his fellow Muslims....sort of a mia culpa type thing. That may actually work in the Arab world. The next thing is to either offer him up to the ICC or to an Arab court to hear about his abuses, after all, it is against his own people that he committed these attrocities, not to anyone elses. One offer that should be made is to the people of Iraq. Either to remain as one country or to split off into their respective groups, each with their own countries and recognized boarders.

On a side note, I enjoy this method of communications. I always feel so rushed while in chat or IM. This I can leave and come back to as much as I need to. And yes, A-1, I do find that one's disability is only a problem if you let it be a problem. I just always want to appologize for the spelling, I know that it can be difficult to read sometimes.

Until later

A-1,

I did not reply earlier because I felt that there was an element of hysteria in the posts both by you and by Paolo. I enjoy the archive and did not want to run the risk that I would get myself banned.

From past arguments in which you have been involved I am pretty sure that a lot of your more extreme opinions are expressed to provoke a response and may be, shall we say, a little more forceful than you truly believe.

I have no doubt that you are an American Patriot and sincerely believe in the US, in the same way that I am intensely proud of my own country. We may no longer be the great power that we once were, but we have done many things of which we can be justly proud. Of course, we have also done a lot of things about which we should be ashamed.

The hurt which Americans feel over 9/11 is genuinely shared by people all over the world. The fear is that President Bush may attempt to use that fear to involve the US and others in ill thought out action. As you say, if Bush mounted an action against Iraq he would gain a lot of support in America. At least until the body bags started to arrive. The fear is that at that point the US will pull out leaving any allies high and dry.

Finally, I should apologize. I should never have described your statements as 'utter crap'. Crap maybe, but utter crap? No!

LOL