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Well there are two approaches society has to make to reduce or prevent rape and sex crime:

1) Teach our sons to have a healthy sexuality, one where frustration is a minimum so that views won't be warped. That includes teaching empathy (for women) etc. To acheive healthy sexuality, moderate masturbation should be encouraged, the child's sexual orientation needs to be understood and supported, and their fantasies must be guided toward adults.

2) Deal with those who have made it to adulthood with warped sexuality. I still maintain that for those who know they are primarily driven by sexual urges, that castration will provide immense relief which will set the basis for rehabilitation. For those whose psychology has been seriously warped and continues after their sex drive has diminished, I think rehabilitation is futile (how can you correct 30 years of warped development) and they should be locked up as long as possible.

In all cases, I think people should have sympathy for rapists and sex criminals. I have no idea why people hate them so much. I see them as poor troubled souls. I think very few of them really want to hurt others, but something in them takes over occasionally and makes them act in ways that do. The amount of hate people have for sex criminals just shows how little most people understand about the human condition.

I knew a guy quite well. He was a juvenille delinquent, an occasional drug user and certifiable sociopath. I know he was a sociopath. I know he used to have nightmares that he killed someone. They would go on, sometimes there would be an altercation, and a shooting or stabbing. The dream would always end with the judge handing down a sentence of guilty with life or the death penalty. He would wake up in a sweat.

His friends were murders, rapists, crack cocaine addicts, theives and other assorted convicted criminals.

He was having a bad season and one day he just snapped. The police found him in a psychotic fit. After placing him in cuffs, the arresting officer held a ammonia salt up to his nose. Leaning against the back of the patrol car, he thought the officer was attempting to kill him. He was an athletic young man who worked in the trades. At anyrate, he quickly broke from the officer and running in shower shoes with hands behind the back made his way down the street. He ran down the middle of the street.

Anyway before long he found himself surrounded by emergency personell and police officers. A police officer and a firefighter held him down waiting for the ambulance. Well, before the unit could arrive the young fellow broke the hand cuffs and was rising off the ground. You should have seen the expression on the officers faces. Four or five more firefighters, standing nearby, came to the rescue off the two others in their moment of crisis. Feeling eventually came back to the thumbs after about a year and a half.

A trip to the hospital and a visit with the on-call mental heath worker was enough to send the chap on his way. The psychatrist walked in and asked if there were any wierd or strange thouhts. The response was "What is wierd?"

I guess the mental heath dude figured the kid was beyond help.

So he was released back onto the street to walk the twenty miles back home. He walked about sixteen miles, from midnight until dawn. All he had was less then ten dollars in his pocket. As the people strarted their mourning commutes and his legs felt like they could go no further he hailed a cab for the last three or four miles. He walked into his garage and over to his bed and went to sleep. He felt safe in his bed, not two weeks before gang bangers had tried to shoot him. They drove and leveled a gun. The kid was to fast and escaped, running to his garage and the bed.

The next day he was rounded up and taken to a lock down facility. He stayed for two weeks voluntarily and then another thirteen days. The hospital was a private facility much better than the county hospital he was droped at the night before. After release he was encouraged to take some antipsychotics. The pills sailed out into the street as he thought about how much he liked his brain.

After leaving the hospital he served in Desert Storm and left with an honorable discharge. He choose a education and profession that would allow him the time and oppurtunity to rehabilitate himself. The army paid his way. Today he is a successful businessman with thriving company. If you were to ask him how to solve the crime problem, he'd probably have to say better mothers, defineitly better mums.

Hi Everyone,

I've read every post and there are some very good points made, but I'm afraid that there is no panacea to crime. What I can add are the thoughts I was given as a child.

Thought 1: Laws exist for the most part because they defend society as a whole.

My Definition: Laws exist for the most part because someone had an interest in making them. Laws that were created to protect the innocent are the finest laws we could have. Victimless crimes are ridiculous in my book and should have never been enacted. I have broken some of those laws. Get the handcuffs. Just helping to run the Archive is probably an offense somewhere.

Thought 2: The worst thing you could do is hurt another.

My Definition: Absolutely. There is no crime worse than hurting another be it mentally, physically, financially, consciously, unconsciously, willingly, or unwillingly. I have unconsciously mentally hurt people then to find out of my actions. My atonement will be hefty and I believe that is one of the reasons I was mentally ill. Couldn't live with myself. I have never raised a fist.

Thought 3: Dreaming of rape is ok. Doing it is not.

My Definition: That was my Dad's saying and my belief was that even thinking of rape was a very bad thing because dreams often time lead to reality. Now older, I believe what he was trying tell me is that we are all sexual beings, desiring to have sex with someone, and undressing them in your mind is ok. To try and involuntarily force sex on someone reminds us of thought 2.

I know it isn't much of an addition to this thread, but it was my input.

Talula says (edited, obviously):

"

talula wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:51 am Thought 3: Dreaming of rape is ok. Doing it is not.

"My Definition: That was my Dad's saying and my belief was that even thinking of rape was a very bad thing because dreams often time lead to reality. Now older, I believe what he was trying tell me is that we are all sexual beings, desiring to have sex with someone, and undressing them in your mind is ok. To try and involuntarily force sex on someone reminds us of thought 2.

"Thought 2: The worst thing you could do is hurt another.

"

Nicely put. I agree completely. The original point that I tried to make above is that the bottom line is personal responsibility.

We are sexual beings. Yes. Animals sometimes. Too true.

We are also humans. Being human means making decisions about what we will and will not do. If we are incapable of subverting our bestiality to our humanity, we should at least be responsible enough to seek help from someone so that we can learn to do so before someone gets hurt.

To say "fuck it" and do whatever you want at the expense of everyone is to choose self over society, gratification over morality. If you want to behave in this manner, okay, but stay out of my neighborhood and away from the people I love. Hence my banishment argument.

Criminals who choose this path and refuse to take responsibility to choose to learn a better way cannot be rehabilitated or convinced because they have chosen to live the way that they do.

Criminal rehabilitation is impossible unless the guilty party sincerely desires a better way, punishment is cruel and ineffective, and mutilation or murder inexcusable. If rape is about sex, as has been argued here, we have to protect ourselves from people who would destroy safety and order because they "NEED" to bust a nut RIGHT NOW in that bitch right there wether she likes it or not. We need to remove these people from our neighborhoods so we can safely live our lives.

The idea that our psychology happens to us; we become warped without our permission is laughable or sad depending on my mood. It leads directly to the idea that we're all just innocent victims who blindly react to to our pain and when horrible crimes are committed, we should just accept them as part of life with the beasts. It's nobody's fault because it's everyone's fault. No way. If I rape someone, it's MY FAULT!!! JUST ME.

The ambiguity of who the victims are is troubling and complex considered broadly. Specifically, though, in a given case of rape, the rapist is the perpetrator no matter how mean or permissive his mommy was. We ALWAYS give our permission to our actions or we wouldn't do them. Simple as that. Our failure to heal and to seek the help needed in doing so; our DECISION to spread pain and hatred instead of healing ourselves of it, is our own, no-one else's.

Sorry to put heat on this one. I'd rather not yell, but I got all excited. It's really not my fault. My dad yelled at me when I was a kid. Blame him if you don't like what I have to say.

Frankie

Frankie said:

"

frankie (imported) wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2002 4:46 am The idea that our psychology happens to us; we become warped without our permission is laughable or sad depending on my mood. It leads directly to the idea that we're all just innocent victims who blindly react to to our pain and when horrible crimes are committed, we should just accept them as part of life with the beasts. It's nobody's fault because it's everyone's fault. No way. If I rape someone, it's MY FAULT!!! JUST ME.

"

Frankie, I am all for the idea of personal responsibility. However, I don't think people really understand the reality of physical addition and biochemistry in decision making. If you've ever taken an anti-depressant (Prozac or Celexa) you'd agree that after only a week of taking those pills that your decisions change drastically. Chemistry can drastically change thinking!

High libido is an amazingly difficult biochemical force to control. Imagine if you gave a coke addict a "magic" pocket which was always full of drugs. Do you really think that person could quit the drug with an unending supply always within reach? They might be able to exert their will for a couple days, but then it would fail and they would crash again into addiction. This is EXACTLY what it is like having a high libido. Every time I even think of women I get a huge RUSH through my body. I feel it. It is a wave of feeling. It is physical. How can I quit, if my "bad" thoughts are so powerfully reinforced? I have an unending supply of physical high ....

So don't be too quick to talk about free will and personal responsibility -- it is a nice ideal but you'll be constantly disappointed by reality. There are very few people in the world that exert free will all the time. Science actually says there is no free will at all -- that we are just a collection of molecules obeying immutable physical laws. I believe there can be free will, but I think we also cannot deny that we are biochemical.

You know that people's thinking can be changed by alcohol. Why don't you believe it can be changed by testosterone? If thinking can be changed by chemical stimulus, why do you think people can have full control over their thinking?

I think it is nice to say that everyone should try to have personal responsibility. But we also need to recognise that it takes a supreme and constant effort that is more difficult for some. And some will fail. Society must be able to accept those people.

First of all, "Science" does not say there is no free will. "Science" doesn't deny anything, it only supports that which there is strong emprical evidence for. It says there's no scientific evidence for free will, and thus free will is left to philosophers and theologians. The bounds of science currently find themselves neatly in line with the bounds of Materialist thought: we are only our matter. We are certainly in part our matter, this much is irrefutable. I argue that our physically objectively analyzable traits are only that; traits. Our matieralistic nature is not mutually exclusive with a nonphysical existence. The facts of science are not the whole show. Science looks at these things and leaves the rest alone. Materialism, the argument that only "Science" can provide the "Truth" is simply a philosophical stance; an opinion amoung many opinions. This is surely another debate.

I would offer the point that legality and public policy, as well as the thinking that guides most people to their conceptualization of human nature, is not only scientific, but also philosophical and theological.

To get to something that actually applies to this thread: I had not considered Testosterone as an addictive drug. An interesting point. An exremely good argument for castration on demand for those who ask for it. It's still the individual's reponsibility to ask for it when it is needed, but I see that this is not currently an option. Well said.

Let me be very clear on this, I'm worried that I'm misunderstood. I do not advocate abandoning anyone who makes a drastic mistake as a first step. The definition of the word "drastic" would change over time to include things like forgetting to salt the sidewalk. An old lady busted her hip, you're BANISHED!!! I advocate the type of system I do as a replacement for life- and death-sentences. The rest of the system should emphasize education and therapy MUCH more heavily, but my point is that for those who refuse to "get it" and reform, we should deny them the right to parasitically live off of our taxes without killing them. Their blood should not be on our hands, but niether should thier lives.

Frankie

p.s. This is seriously a shitload of fun. Thanks everyone for the great discussion!

I will gladly pay you Thursday for a cheeseburger today:D

Splitdick says:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:30 am High libido is an amazingly difficult biochemical force to control. Imagine if you gave a coke addict a "magic" pocket which was always full of drugs. Do you really think that person could quit the drug with an unending supply always within reach? They might be able to exert their will for a couple days, but then it would fail and they would crash again into addiction. This is EXACTLY what it is like having a high libido. Every time I even think of women I get a huge RUSH through my body. I feel it. It is a wave of feeling. It is physical. How can I quit, if my "bad" thoughts are so powerfully reinforced? I have an unending supply of physical high ....

So don't be too quick to talk about free will and personal responsibility -- it is a nice ideal but you'll be constantly disappointed by reality. There are very few people in the world that exert free will all the time. Science actually says there is no free will at all -- that we are just a collection of molecules obeying immutable physical laws. I believe there can be free will, but I think we also cannot deny that we are biochemical.

Well, I disagree about the philosophy of "biochemical predetermination".

As one who has two undergraduate degrees and a Master's degree in science I can tell you that probability plays a BIG part in behavior.

The Psychologists always have much trouble in attributing behaviors to "NATURE or NUTURE". It is my experience that our nurture, that is our upbringing, has a GREAT deal to do with how we behave. While it is true that a Trumpet will never sound like an Oboe, both instruments acn play the same melody if the player is properly trained and educated.

Even a Sousaphome can be made to play a melody that is the same as the Oboe or Trumpet, just a few octaves lower. NOt better or worse, just different.

Splitdick, just becaue you have an insatiable sex drive that is difficult to control does not mean that you cannot do it. Maybe you should have had an outlet or maybe been allowed or even taught to use the Jocelyn Elders solution. Maybe you should have been around the right lady who as a girl complemented your condition. Chance, not pre-determination. Nurture, not nature. See?

At any rate, life is difficult to varying degrees because of #1 our nature and #2 our situation, neither of which do we have any control initially. Later, as we become aware, we can learn how we are and learn how to be kind to ourselves and keep ourselves away from situations that are not good for us. For example, if you were born blind, you might not want to become an artist. That would be difficult.

Take for example a child with a condition such as autism or perhaps severe cerebral palsy. Certainly, there can be no argument that these individuals would have a great problem becoming even SEMI-independent. This is by comparison not much different than one learning NOT to act on their tremendous sex drive. I doubt that you would want to put yourself into the position of being a gyneocologist with an insatiable sex drive.

On the other hand, it would be much easier for one with an insatiable sex drive to find a non-hazardous profession for himself and appropriate methods of dealing with a sex drive other than forcing himself or even herself on people who are not interested.

I guess what I am trying to say is that life is NEVER easy. If you are lucky you will have a life that is not as hard as the next person, but if you think about it, you can ALWAYS find somebody who is worse off than you are, and who has a harder life regardless of your circumstances.

So this is the point. Bottom line, there can NEVER be an acceptable excuse for rape. True, some people come accross as more "rapeable" than others, but just because they have a problem that is no excuse to take advantage of them. Most of the time a person who allows temselves to get into a compromising position is a casulaty of a "victim" syndrome and feeds of the attrention that being a "victim" brings.

LEARN TO LIVE AND LIVE TO LEARN. Predetermination is no excuse, it is a cop-out.

A-1

A-1,

I think we are saying the same thing. Both nature AND nurture create the biochemical process in the brain. Your brain function is nature and your brain patterns are nurture. So the great philosophical question is whether anyone can actually overcome their biochemical programming.

You said "

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:49 am LEARN TO LIVE AND LIVE TO LEARN. Predetermination is no excuse, it is a cop-out.

"

I totally agree that that is the ideal to which people should strive. But I believe that reality is that some or even many people will fail to acheive self-responsibity all the time. And as a society we must understand that. If we hold up everyone to ideals, then everyone will fail.

So we need both. Personally we should strive to be self-responsible. But when judging others we must acknowledge the difficulty of being self-responsible. That is the only way to truly address the human condition.

You said:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:57 am So we need both. Personally we should strive to be self-responsible. But when judging others we must acknowledge the difficulty of being self-responsible. That is the only way to truly address the human condition...

also...

So the great philosophical question is whether anyone can actually overcome their biochemical programming.

It is not an ideal that I am referring to. Ideals are something to strive for. Surely we all have something to strive for. This idea of Rape is not something to take lightly. We just cannot tolerate it in a civilized society. We can not easily "overcome" biochemical programming, but we can use our power of intellect to chanel it in a non-harmful manner. This is being self-responsible. Indeed, it is a necessary trait for survival in society.

Remember, the vast majority that do anti-social things will get caught. It is just a matter of timing and circumstance. WE need to know that those who get caught are usually never caught the first time that they do something wrong, despite what they say to the contrary.

Now, with that being said I am willing to think about the biochemical things, but again our biochemisty is affected by our environment. If we allow ourselves to be overcome constantly by our baser instincts that does not mean that we have to do things that are harmful to others.

Suppose that the argument that you use was applied to a serial killer such as Jeffery Dahlmer or perhaps Ted Bundy. Is the "human condition" something that we should be using as a way to excuse the terribly harmful actions of these two serial rapists / serial killers?

To me the answer is obvious. If a person has the urges but finds a socially acceptable outlet such as fantasy / role playing / masturbation then we can be accepting of their needs and obsessions. They are hurting none with this type of outlet. They are giving in to their biochemical urges but they are doing it in a manner whereby no one gets hurt.

This is what I mean. People need to be trained or encouraged to accept their "human condition" by doing things that are NOT harmful to others. If people cannot control themselves and LEARN not to harm others then they need to be put away so that the rest of us can be safe.

We can NEVER accept people who harm others as being enevitable because of the "human condition." Even though we all know that monsters such as Adolph Hitler and Osama binLaden sometimes spring forth we must deal with them harshly because that, too, is part of the "human condition" Everyone should expect monsters such as this to get their comeuppance sooner or later.

So, in this sense perhaps we can agree. Surely we can do nothing about our feelings and urges but to channel them in such a manner where they are not harming others.

In doing so and demanding that society have rules to keep people from harming each other we insure our own safety. If just one of us is not safe from this then none of us is safe. If we harm others with our actions we will end up just harming ourselves more.

So, I say that RAPE is a heinous crime. Child molestation is not any different. Neither is murder. Although we all know that there are degrees of wrongness of crime, we also know that crime is not something that we should EVER tolerate. People who do the acts that I mentioned need to realize that they will be dealt with harshly if they are caught. Why, because the "human condition" demands it!

We may EXPECT crimes against others as a result of the human condition, but we should ACCEPT it, NEVER tolerate it, because of the human condition.

I hope that you can see my point.

A-1

A-1,

You said:

"

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:43 pm It is not an ideal that I am referring to. Ideals are something to strive for. Surely we all have something to strive for. This idea of Rape is not something to take lightly. We just cannot tolerate it in a civilized society. We can not easily "overcome" biochemical programming, but we can use our power of intellect to chanel it in a non-harmful manner. This is being self-responsible. Indeed, it is a necessary trait for survival in society.

"

You ARE talking about ideals, because in reality society and people don't work the way you want them to. They say that a woman is raped every six minutes in the US -- that is reality. If there are that many rapes, then there are more attempted rapes, and probably every second a man is considering raping. That is reality. It is a harsh world, and rape is not an unusual act.

Reality is that humans are predators, in fact the best predator on the planet. That is why our population is so large. We have automated our predation so we no longer need to hunt animals, instead we breed and raise animals by the millions just so we can eat their flesh. It is common sense that humans will naturally turn their predatory skills against each other. Even when individuals are subdued, countries predate against each other -- the US could easily feed starving nations, but it prefers not to.

You have the ideal that no one should hurt other people. That is cute, but not everyone shares that ideal. I like living in a world where death is always close at hand -- it makes life worth living. I like the fact I have to carry a gun to walk through my city. I like wondering if someone is going to crawl through my window at night. To me, that is the essence of being a man. If you don't understand this, I suggest you watch a Clint Eastwood movie such as "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" -- even "the good" is a ruthless killer. That is the morality that many men, throughout the world and history, live by.

It is a mistake to assume that society is a protective bubble. The world is harsh, even in the US. That is reality. That makes life exciting. Some might like the ideal of people living in suburbs, masturbating their fantasies away. Not me.

You said:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:33 am Reality is that humans are predators, in fact the best predator on the planet.

Indeed humans are great predators. Indeed we do are best hunting or fighting in packs. Similar to dogs it is the social and emoyional bounds that make us the best predators on earth. I trust that you would aknowledge a obvious defeat against a lion if left naked in the jungles of Africa.

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:33 am I like the fact I have to carry a gun to walk through my city. I like wondering if someone is going to crawl through my window at night. To me, that is the essence of being a man. If you don't understand this, I suggest you watch a Clint Eastwood movie such as "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"

You have a very harsh view of existance, in which conflict is the driving force motivating behavior. I came from a very harsh environment, and many of the guys I hung with had such an attitude. For the most part they are all dead or in jail. Victims of their minds and resulting lifestyles.

I must comment on the Clint Eastwood thing. Any man who has been in combat or lived in any life threatening situations will tell you that the image on the screen is false. Half the time you are running like hell. You see they leave this out of the equation. It is a male fantasy to regain power in a violent fashion. Often we feel so powerless in or lives that we fantasize about regaining the upperhand on some identified object, and yes usaully it is the "bad" guy.

Free your mind and your ass will follow. That is to say look at why you are sitting in wait for a moment to redeem yourself. Use your mind to unravel these mysteries. Reclaim your manhood through the relentless pursuit of the truth.

Many, many men have a similar fantasy as you. They indanger their families by leaving loaded guns in the home. It is such a shame that so often the victems are innocent children who have such little control over their destiny.

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:33 am It is a mistake to assume that society is a protective bubble. The world is harsh, even in the US. That is reality. That makes life exciting. Some might like the ideal of people living in suburbs, masturbating their fantasies away. Not me.

[/B]

Indeed at some level we are all guilty of ingaging in fantasy. Fantasy is a way in which we humans work out emotions and desires. However it can indeed become dysfunctional.

-plezherus

you say that:

SplitDick (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:33 am It is a mistake to assume that society is a protective bubble. The world is harsh, even in the US. That is reality. That makes life exciting. Some might like the ideal of people living in suburbs, masturbating their fantasies away. Not me.

I see your point. With all due respect I want you to know that our lives are what we make of them. If you want to live life the way that you describe then that is what you want. It is also what you expect. From what you said in your quote it is your ideal. Ya see, you do have ideals, even if they aren't much by my standards. My faith in humanity is re-affirmed!

Hell, if all the men around here were like they were on "Deliverance" I would probably turn Gay and move to Miami or maybe even San Francisco. Vi wouldn't like it, but hell, she would be so busy getting raped by real studs that she wouldn't miss me, would she? I have a hard time believing that life is as desperate as you portray it where you live. But it may be, after all, you live there and I don't. Or rather you live there and I won't.

We do, however, live in a world of rules and laws. Even if they are enforced by street gangs, they are the rules of that society. Although the rules and laws get bent and broken often it is still no reason to suppose that it is a natural thing for man to be evil, show no remorse, live like an animal and rape, plunder and pillage. People who rape, murder and assault other people get locked up around here when they get caught.

Fortunately, we catch more of them than gets away so the rates of such things are stable here. Dirty Harry's world is an abberation. Either that or else everybody around here is so much like him that the creeps are afraid to get out of line. I guess that you could call the folks in these parts good ol' boys.

With that being said I want you to know that I am more rual than suburb and until two years ago I could walk out on my back deck and watch the corn, wheat, soybeans or what ever grow. In my part of the country one is more likely to see the tell-tale green of the 5 leafed cannibus plant growing between the rows, than the corner drug-dealer with his Ho's. Crystal methamphetimine is getting to be so much of a problem around here that most of the farmers that I know are ready to put landmines around their stock of anhydrous ammonia. The Pep Boys stores around here sure sell a lot of starting fluid.

I, too, have guns. But shotguns, 30-30's with deer scopes and the like are more the order of the day around here. Mine consists of 22 cal. squirel rifles and target pistols. We don't have to have any gun permits here. I guess that it is the same there, huh? But it is much easier to get a cow butchered now and then and put the meat in the freezer than it is to hunt squirrel, ducks and rabbit. So my guns are in a closet with trigger locks so that the grandchildren can't get at them.

So, good buddy, we have a culture clash. Or rather maybe an alternative life style. People who rape around here if they are as abundant as you say that they are there must be doing the livestock..... Hey!......That's it!

Maybe we could bring some ewes in a semi-truck there where you are and get some of the boys in your hood all cranked up and let them do the sheep for a while so as to leave the women alone. The women might actually get to like men again instead of converting to lesbianism, huh? Actually, the GAY population in THIS area have found a nice safe place to play. Sort of live and let live, you know.

Back to Barry HAD a little lamb...Of course, that would be cruelty to dumb animals turning the boys loose on the sheep and all but I guess that they would rather do that than to beat their meat, huh? Hell, everyone knows that REAL men don't masturbate, right? All the while the boys could be having crystal methamphetimine hallucinations that they are some kind of stud and that women enjoy being raped as much as men enjoy raping them and such.

Hell, I bet that if we shear the sheep for their wool, put a rubber mask of Pamela Anderson on their heads backwards and tie a couple of basketballs to their shoulders that the guys might not know the difference. We could even go to the local Wal-Mart and get some baby bottle nipples and some super glue to glue them to the tops of the basketballs so that the boys would have something to chew on until they came. Shit, if they were cranked up enough and the light were bad they probably wouldn't even notice the sheep shit. Hmmm,

Baaaah, maybe we better forget it, not a good idea. I just couldn't do that to a poor sheep.

As you were. Disregard this whole post, please.

A-1