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twaddler (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:40 am Homptydompty is in it.. cool. This should be an interesting film.

Hompty/Zac and Thefraj/Roger are two of our important members here. I spoke with Thefraj today on the phone. The director of the film is taking the train up from London tomorrow to give him a preview of the film before it is shown on national TV. They have also arranged for a publicity agent for him (as the most identifiable person profiled in the film and one who is in the UK). Thefraj has already had two interviews (with photographers present) and both interviews will be on the newstands the day that the film airs - one in a women's magazine and the other in a national newspaper.

I will ask Thefraj to post a brief comment on his reaction to the film after seeing it (and I've already scheduled a time to talk with him about it on Sunday).

If the film is as good as we hope it will be, every member here who can afford it should BUY a copy as soon as it becomes available in order to support the producer and director for their efforts. I would certainly plan to buy multiple copies to send to friends.

PUBLIC AWARENESS AND UNDERSTANDING

... This is what we all need. I think the first major step is to bring this out in the open, and to reveal that the men who want this surgery are sane, mature, thoughtful and deliberate. Elective surgeries have all had their initial difficulty with public acceptance. Facelifts. Breast enhancements. Tummy-tucks. All were at first scorned.

The real difference in male genital surgery is that most men have trouble with being objective with their "privates". And women are careful not to offend.

With so many men wanting "MORE" -ie. penis enhancement pills, potions and lotions that are being hawked everywhere - it's impossible for many to understand why some of us want LESS. Wouldn't it be great if we could sell or donate what we don't want to those who want more?

As for me: I'm deadly serious about having my full nullo surgery quite soon, and prefer the entire project - including plastination of my severed penis, testicles, scrotum and pubic scalp, and finally their display in the museum - be documented on film and shown to the widest possible public audience. The problem of filming the experience would have included the physician-surgeon, who was terrified of damage to his business.

If anyone out there knows how I can proceed, let me know.

Salami

PS: A major goal for me is to see my penis, Elmo (but not me) become famous.

Does your surgeon not wear a mask during surgery? And therefore during filming... Identities can be quite easily cloaked.

I don't know this for sure, but I doubt whether anyone can buy a copy of this programme or any other from Channel 4.

With a Broadband connection, 4OD (4 On Demand) is service where net users can watch programmes for a while after they've been aired. I believe you need to set up an account with the On Demand Service and have a UK ISP account and bank. I don't think they do overseas sales, but I just might be wrong.

As a suggestion I would urge all UK readers/ Guests/ Members of the Archive to record the programme whilst it is being transmitted nationally.If we have a selection of recordings made on both DVD and VHS, then maybe they can be tweaked so that viewers in North America and Germany etc.. might see it.

Sadly, although Channel 4 is on satellite and beams all over Europe, it is also encrypted (unlike the BBC and some other commercial broadcasters) which restricts access to Sky TV equipment. If you make a recording then why not send a Private Message to Paolo or Jesus or Huevon?

It would probably please the Channel and the makers of the programme if you include the commercial breaks also. If Form London dislike this suggestion, then please post your own suggestions to informed readers here from across Europe, N America and beyond, who want to see the programme?

After I have read the replies in this thread I have to disagree with the Fraj and the others that this documentary will be objective, balanced, accurate and fair.

Not everybody is a "voluntary" eunuch and becomes one after being castrated.

I am not seeing any mention of people who are part of this community and the fact of becoming eunuchs by medical negligence,accidents,mental disorders,sickness,disease,act of God and other reasons.

The documentary should include their point of view to make it a real documentary. Otherwise it just becomes a piece of one- sided propaganda. Sorry, that is my opinion.

I am able to provide NTSC DVD from a VHS PAL tape if anybody needs one,providing I have a PAL VHS of the film. H.

The film would seem to have been targeted to a specific topic, Voluntary Eunuchs. Not eunuchs in general, accidental eunuchs, negligently caused eunuchdom, etc. Voluntary eunuchs. Let us keep that in mind when we watch the video (if we can watch it) to see if it accurately and fairly portrays that segment of this community.

Just to let you all know, Danny was kind enough to come all the way from London to the North-West with a copy of the DVD to watch. Before I comment on the documentary itself, I would like to address the issue of anonymity which was mentioned since I last posted.

A few days ago, I found the publicity getting on top of me a little, until Tugon reminded me of something. It would have been very easy for me to remain anonymous and be interviewed, hoping that this would keep my family life, my work life and my friends unaffected. But what would have been achieved if not further segregation from mainstream society? Had I done something wrong? Am I ashamed of myself? Of course not! When - then - should it follow that I must cower in the shadows?

I have a couple of jobs at the moment. And I wonder if some of the people who know me there are reading these words? I'm spending these last few days making sure everyone (even those I don't see very often!) knows the whole truth at one place of work. Everyone has been very nice so far. The complication is that one of my jobs is at a highschool. Some of the pupils have already told me they saw me on TV in the trailer already mentioned. This did worry me, as I'm sure - eventually - a parent will find out, and become (understandibly?) upset. Perhaps they are here reading these words now?

I also consider myself fortunate to have a very close (and understanding friend) who is currently a police community support officer. She took it upon herself to tell the people she works about me, and I suspect (hope?) some of them will be watching too. Which is probably quite important, as we are a minority too! And surely deserve the same rights and protection as any other. But the amount of awareness this must be generating in my little home town must be invaluable.

________________

Anyway, I was pleased with what I saw in the documentary itself. There were moments when I was worried where it was all going, but - often by subtle twist - there was usually a point to be made. The documentary itself focused on four people, but makes a good point of emphasizing that they are not alone.

It was opened with the "Master Rick" business (as we discussed in other threads!) but turned out to be far more tasteful than I had feared; there were no gorey scenes of blood and knives or cages from the ceiling or body parts in fridges as I first thought. But rather, Danny (beautifully! ^_^) narrates the event matter-of-factly as a brief background to the case of people wanting castration, but being shunned by the medical community and having nowhere to achieve it. This - as with much of it - gave me a great sense of relief that the gorey, surreal sensationalism was really not the aim.

Without going into too much detail, I was actually quite surprised at the choice of characters. They were very diverse and quite different people. But the choices do strike me as reflecting the range of characters likely to be found in our community. Even though I will openly admit that I had trouble connecting with a couple of them. But I particularly liked the interesting mix of people at different points in the gender spectrum. Anyone who believes things are as simple as male-female will find their head spinning by about half way through!

thefraj thank you and the others for putting yourselves out there to help educate the general public. I look forward to seeing the documentary and plan on sharing this with others. I do not have the courage to be in a video but I will make sure some professionals in my community view it.

I will be proud to say that is my friend in the documentary!

I do not encourage anyone to copy, distribute, share, or otherwise cut into the revenue stream of those who have made this documentary.

That being said, we are living in the 21st century. Television shows have a tendency to turn up in torrents, posted to usenet, or shared through P2P programs. Sometimes, they are on the net within 2-3 hours of their being broadcast on television.

I again stress though, watch it on television when it comes to your area. Perhaps even let the channel know you liked it. If the producers make money from this, perhaps we may see more interest. Or at the very least, they may deserve a reward for producing perhaps the most positive (or at least balanced) view of our corner of the asylum.

Re this programme , i was interviewed by Tania although i dont appear in the programme, the only thing that horrified me was, that at the time i was interviewed, i had quiet got round to explaining to my new partner, how or why i hadnt got anyballs i just was just quite content for him to like me for me, and not for anyother reason, it was suggested by tania that wouldnt i be interested in telling him while being taped for the programe- as in no was my reply and have had nothing to do with them since, now because of this programme i have removed all details or how to contact me on this web site, i am considering removing my profile and re registering

i have always been open about my status, but some over scrutiny into my life and my private work /life worries me. My fear is that this programme is double edged, yes it may help many but it also may bring the wrong kind of attention- also my concern is i know some of the contributors, too, i have never discussed anyone elses status position how safe is mine and my details

Yes, exposure IS a double edged sword. It may be necessary for the community, and for developing a better understanding in society as a whole. But the individuals participating in that first exposure may feel very alone doing it. Thefraj and anyone else daring to do that deserve huge credit.

In the long run even some of the unbalanced exposure may have a good benefit. If there are enough "freak shows" on the matter, the public gets numb and the freak value wears of. But that is an even higher price to pay - especially so for the individual who often don't know what they are getting into.

I guess - cynic as I am sometimes - that often it has to start with the "freak shows" though, to generate any interest and awareness at all. If this documentary is balanced and has depth, maybe we can all hope that we have started to pass that stage.

A lot of really good british documentaries are bought by swedish television and broadcasted here. I hope that this one makes it.

Just a quick newsflash everyone! this weeks issue of the UKs Reveal magazine which hits the shelves today has an exclusive interview with me on page 32, and The Independant has a double-page spread in the heath section. Both of which were extremely positive! And - oddly enough for someone so ugly - included some nice photos! All mention our community, and I'm quick to stress that I am not the only one, but one of many.

And I've just been lucky enough to speak with a lovely girl from the Liverpool Echo, which will be running an article tomorrow! And - (hopefully!) - will be the best one yet! I'm praying, and a little nervous about the reception of the documentary itself. And I'm lucky enough to be watching it with some close friends who's support is so needed at this point in my life.

I hope all this publicity will help raise peoples' awareness and generate further - hopefully positive - media interest.

Fraj,

That's no way to talk about the reporter.

Ugly media folks need love too.

The article in The Independent is very positive. I will properly format it for easy reading before posting it here. But, in the meantime, you can read it directly on the newspaper's web site. They also deserve a high hit count for it. I plan to write directly to the reporter to thank her for her sensative work.

No Sex Please (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health ... 415348.ece)

That was an excellent article. I thought that it really approached the subject in an unbiased and truthful way. The reporter stated the facts without putting a personal spin on it. It is nice to see that some people in the media are open to looking at new ideas and ways of life in such a light. Hopefully the documentary will be along the same lines. Fraj, you should feel very proud of yourself. It appears that you represented the community in a dignified, honest, open, and good way. Your efforts seem to have helped to produce some much needed resources to give the world insight into the lives, motivations, and thoughts of the people who belong here. Also, it will hopefully help others who have this desire yet either feel all alone and don't know where to find out information. You're helping to raise awareness and open the world's eyes to this choice. Thanks for all your hard work and good luck as the documentary airs. Take care!

Indeed a very excellent article. It shows you as person, not as a freek. I also hope this article and maybe the documentary will help change attitude of people towards the community.

Thefray, I have to congratulate you. A lot has to go through your head now. Hope you're doing fine !

Vesal.

An excelent article and I'm looking forward to the documentary. As is my way with these things I'm worried. There will be a backlash from all of this attention. The usual " I know best and no other opinion counts" people will be working hard to make sure this positive approach counts for as little as possible. There will be calls to eradicate the "perverts". There will be shouts of "crime against nature". There will be calls to psychoanalyze anyone who has ever had a desire to alter their sexuality (The poor things are quite mad, you know). Some of our members, friends and even strangers to us who feel the need to change their body are emotionaly fragile as it is, we need to be aware and offer them all the support they deserve and require if this issue heats up. --FLO--

For those of you who either missed or could not view the channel 4 documentary here is a link that gives some details of what was aired hope some of you find it useful.

lookinginuk (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:08 am http://www.channel4.com/health/microsit ... index.html

Uncle Flo said:

"

Uncle Flo (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:55 am As is my way with these things I'm worried. There will be a backlash from all of this attention. The usual " I know best and no other opinion counts" people will be working hard to make sure this positive approach counts for as little as possible. There will be calls to eradicate the "perverts". There will be shouts of "crime against nature". There will be calls to psychoanalyze anyone who has ever had a desire to alter their sexuality (The poor things are quite mad, you know). Some of our members, friends and even strangers to us who feel the need to change their body are emotionaly fragile as it is, we need to be aware and offer them all the support they deserve and require if this issue heats up. --FLO--

"

**********************

I don't know. I'm age 60 and have spent all my life dealing with other people, which often involved trying to please others. I'm the age now where I deserve respect.

If other people want to do whatever with their bodies, I say, "so what?" - as long as they don't impose on unwilling others.

But the line stops here: I will do as I wish with my own body. We all have the basic rights to do as we wish, with the understanding that each person's rights end where the next person's rights begin.

You don't like it? Tough shit.

A member may some day be famous and make the Letterman or Leno show.

...although try to not schedule during the Easter Season. They are ALWAYS trying to CRUCIFY someone for a sick laugh or two.

Are there any reactions to the documentary from U.K. members who were able to watch it?

What worked? What didn't work? What did you like? What did you not like? The version shown on U.S. television may be edited a bit. Here's your chance to have some input.

Haven't seen it yet. Will try signing up for C4's view on demand system this evening if I can.

Meanwhile it received an odd review in The Guardian. Odd in tone, as if the author wanted to make fun of the issue but didn't quite dare.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv_and_radio/ ... 94,00.html

There was a single criticism though:

"As well as literally, the film didn't have any balls metaphorically. It told the stories without attempting to ask or answer questions about how we construct masculinity, what there might be to fear in belonging to an ostensibly privileged gender that you would rather cut off its physical markers than remain part of it, or what part an internalised cultural hatred of homosexuality might have played in the men's decisions. There was definitely something missing."

Perhaps a valid comment about masculinity, but I wonder if the casual conflation of homosexuality with eunuchism was the critic's or the program's?

Matthew

"Most users ever online was 1,086, Yesterday at 11:27 PM."

Hi,

I saw the documentary last night. As TheFraj already mentioned, I was a bit surprised by the choice of people they included, but perhaps that's more down to my own ignorance about the subject.

I found myself having no problem whatsoever with those who felt themselves to be a third gender and wanted castration for that reason, I had more difficulty with those who appeared to have made the decision based on some sort of strange logic about proving to the world that we all have the freedoms to do whatever we want to our own bodies. If you take a look at today's vote on the subject that Channel Four are running, it asks 'should men be allowed to voluntarily have castration if they wish it?' and over 80% of people who have voted say they should (based on 'yes' or 'no' answers).

In principle I agree that we all should have the ability to have a body we are comfortable with but I'm not sure about 'political' reasons for castration.

I'm transgendered (although I don't much like that term), biologically female but consider myself androgynous. I have considered gender reassignment surgery but decided it is not for me because I don't feel myself to be wholly male or wholly female. I feel myself to belong to a third gender which is neither one nor the other. It's a very different situation for me and I am fortunate in that I have naturally very low oestrogen levels, no idea why (although perhaps it lends some credence to the biological not social argument) but my oestrogen levels have been about half what is considered normal for all of my life and therefore my sex drive is very, very low. The interesting thing, which wasn't covered by the programme, is that my 'love' drive (if you can have that) isn't altered, I still want to find someone to love and to be loved by, it's just that the sexual angle isn't really relevant to me (not sure if that makes sense, sorry).

In the transgendered world, if you want to be considered for Gender Reassignment Surgery, you have to fulfill the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association's 'Standards of Care' before you will be considered. The Harry Benjamin rules are very complex and involve all kinds of (not necessarily appropriate) psychological testing. I know of many mixed gender people (myself included) who find the Harry Benjamin rules unacceptable. For myself, I find them unacceptable for a number of reasons but the primary reason is that they attempt to 'lump' all transgendered people into one group, into something concrete that can be proscribed for. I do not believe this is true and I do not believe that this is a fair OR an accurate representation of mixed gender people. Thus, in my opinion, the Harry Benjamin rules are fairly pointless. Perhaps they work for some people, I'm not sure, but they don't get to the heart of the issue, they're much more concerned about the 'why's' and 'wherefore's' and not the reality. Perhaps the reality is too difficult for society to deal with? I'm not sure.

I was genuinely interested in this documentary because it raised the issue of mixed gender without pushing a third gendered person into the 'transgendered' environment where we doesn't necessarily belong.

My own situation is obviously very different to yours but I think, in many ways, we probably have similar situations to confront.

I thought the Channel Four documentary was fair and reasonably non-judgemental although I would query the inclusion of one person in particular who appeared to have a totally different agenda for castration and that certainly impacted VERY negatively on the documentary as, in my opinion, it confused the issue and added in all sorts of other issues which really don't need to be included in a documentary about eunuch-ism. This person was clearly interested in 'experimental sexuality' and that's fair enough, I've got no problem with that but I just, personally, don't think he belonged in the same documentary as his situation was markedly different from, for example, Roger's, Zee's or Bill's. (I'm not talking about Master Rick, we didn't see enough about him for me to make a judgement).

Perhaps someone here can enlighten me? My previous assumption about eunuch-ism was that it fell into a third gender of people who felt themselves to be (like me) fairly androgynous. The addition of testicles felt like a 'growth' which they wished to be rid of (in much the same way as I have an issue with my breasts, feeling them to be almost a 'tumour' which shouldn't be there, hard to explain but it's how I feel, this doesn't meant that I want to be male, it just means I don't feel comfortable having breasts as they 'sexualise' me in a way I don't feel comfortable with). I'm now not sure as I felt that the documentary seemed to imply that castration had proved NOT to be the solution for Zee (for example) as they ended the programme telling how depressed he was and how he was now considering taking Testosterone injections. It's left me rather confused. Was he too young? I don't think so, I knew when I was about 5 about my own androgyny and, as I got older, I just got more sure. Zee seemed to have other issues. So I'm not sure if he felt fairly represented by the documentary.

Please excuse me for butting in to your group and I really do hope that no-one minds but I would like to understand further, not for any mawkish reason, but because it impacts upon my own life in a very real way.

Thanks.

PS If anyone hasn't seen them and would like to read the Harry Benjamin Rules, they can be found here : http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf

Please, continue to post your thoughts. I have no problem hearing from you. Your points are well taken. I'll have to see the documentary for myself before I can comment on it. As to "experimental sexuality", that seems to be what leads some to think about castration and then to realize that their situation fits well with the subject. In my case I've been sexually adventurous since quite young. I was therefore receptive to the idea of castration. Also I realized that I didn't quite belong in any of the generally accepted catagories. This is not the usual path but certainly not unknown. --FLO--

Hi Uncle Flo,

Thanks for replying to me.

I want to clarify what I said a little bit because, on reflection, it sounds horribly judgemental and I really didn't intend it to. My problem with the person who, in my opinion, didn't belong in the documentary, was not so much a problem with the choices he had made but with the way it was portrayed. Without wishing to trivialise, it felt a bit as though they should have had a little man with a trumpet playing a fanfare and holding up a board which said 'and now for the salacious, titillating bit' ( ) and, for me, the problem with that was that I felt it slightly undermined an otherwise very genuine attempt to tackle the issue sensitively and fairly.

It's hard to explain without sounding as though I'm making judgements about the particular choices this man made when that's really not what I'm saying. This was a man who had been castrated but had then gone on to partly have SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) by way of having a vagina 'made' (sorry for my poor terminology), he had also had a urethra re-positioning. Now, I don't have any problem whatsoever with those choices, entirely up to him, my problem was that I think it complicated the issue of eunuch-ism. They also included comments about him (made by the narrator) which seemed rather out of place (and sounded very judgmental) I'm not saying that eunuch-ism a simple issue, of course it's not, but it just felt very odd to have included him in this particular documentary.

For me, and bear in mind that I'm speaking only for myself here and I have no special knowledge or support for what I say other than my own experiences, I don't feel that I'm either male or female, I feel that I'm de-sexualised as a person (which isn't quite the same as being non-sexual in my opinion). This person seemed to have dual-gender which, again only in my opinion, just didn't seem to sit well in the documentary. I just found his inclusion quite confusing but that probably reflects more on me than it does on anything else.

I hope that's clarified what I meant a bit? Hopefully others who've seen it will be able to give their interpretations too.

I would also like to extend a welcome to dingbat. Your posts are thought-provoking and interesting. One of the things about this community that amazes me, is its diversity and openness. There are people here that doesn't fit any mold. And that's what's so very good. ("E pluribus unum" and all that...)

I believe that sexuality and gender are phenomenon far too complicated to fit into a binary system with only one or two dimensions. There are probably several more factors in this, and they seem to me to have a lot more nuances then our dicotomies represent. But equiped with poor concepts, we still have to make the best we can in life. But much of the confusion and distress, the feeling of being lost and out of place, may come from not being able to address the problem in the first place.

Not to long ago the difference between sexuality and gender were obscure and gay people were sometimes called "inverted". We're only just past that and who can say what we will discover about "the human condition" in the comming decades?

Thank you Sapient and Salami for the welcome.

Sapient, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I pm'ed someone earlier with the comment that I thought a lot of my confusion centered on definitions which, I think, is what you are saying too?

If my memory serves me correctly (and I'm searching back 20 years now!), wasn't it Havelock Ellis who first got into the 'inversion of sexuality' thing? I think he wrote his book in the late 1800's but I could be wrong and you're totally right, he did indeed call homosexuality an 'inversion'. But then I think it got even worse, it became a 'mental illness' for quite a long time, diagnostically entered into all the psychiatric textbooks etc. Now, I suppose a similar thing happens to those people who are labelled as either 'Gender Dyspohric' or as having 'Body Identity Disorder' (especially bearing in mind that the 'dys/dis' comes from the Greek meaning 'bad, difficult, wrong or, in some translations, simply 'ill') - doesn't really say much for clinical progress, does it?

I don't want to derail this thread but I'm interested in the definition thing. I think I'm defined in all kinds of ways depending on who's doing the defining. Those who don't really know me probably define me as a woman, those who know me would either say that I'm transgendered or bi-sexual. I don't feel comfortable with these terms though because they don't accurately describe what I am, they perhaps describe aspects of me but not all of me. I have many t/g friends who honestly believe that I really do want an SRS but I'm just too afraid (not true) and I have many gay friends who think I'm too scared to admit to being gay (also not true!) - the odd thing is, people seem to be able to deal with most of the above definitions (although most do find 'transgendered' hard to comprehend) but what no-one can deal with is the 'asexual' aspect of me, it's as though there is some law which insists that I MUST be sexual in some way in order to fulfill my requirements to be a human being. I find that quite difficult to understand.

I'm finding the replies really interesting and I'm very grateful to you for being so welcoming.

Thank you.