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Hi Curious,

I think you're right, in a way, that doctors need psychiatric reports about people in certain situations. But perhaps the problem sometimes lies in the fact that doctors, along with most of society, don't always understand that some people consider themselves to be of a third gender, neither male or female.

There is a tendency, in the medical world, to assume that everyone should fit into what we call the 'binary system' (meaning male or female, two genders).

There are some people who are transgendered (t/g), they are born into what they feel to be the wrong body. For a very long time, this wasn't accepted as a medical diagnosis and people who were t/g were, for the most, either shunned or thought to have all sorts of peculiar psychiatric problems. Then, following a lot of research, it was finally realised that some people really ARE in the wrong body. Thus it was that the concept of gender reassignment (commonly referred to as an 'SRS' - sexual reassignment surgery) was born. I happen to know the person who had the very first gender reassignment in the UK, he began life in a male body and had a gender reassignment to bring him into line with what he felt in his head. He then lived very successfully as a female (in fact, she was, for a time, a female fashion model). But then I also have a friend who had an SRS from male to female. He was not properly assessed (for whatever reason) and was desparately unhappy afterwards. He now swings between both genders. He is lucky, he has a partner who has been with him throughout the entire thing and really doesn't mind which gender he prefers to be (I refer to him as male because, at the moment, he presents himself as male).

The problem for people who feel 'third gendered' is that they don't feel they fit into any gender stereotype (I'm certainly not trying to speak on behalf of Roger here, I'm talking more generally), BUT society more or less insists that we must ALL conform to either male or female.

Once you let go of the two-gendered system, then things change quite dramatically.

For me, for example, it's not about what society expects of me or about societal expectations of masculinity or femininity, it's about what I feel I am. And THAT doesn't fit into any of the currently existing categories.

I'm not a freak, I'm not even a freak-of-nature, I'm quite a nice person most of the time! But society will always deem me as 'odd'. Speaking personally, I think that this is society's fault and not mine.

But people such as you offer the chance for some of us to try to explain things and that's a great opportunity.

I'm glad you're here.

Thank you for not being too hard on me with my questions as sometimes I seem to offend people when I ask about things. I was once interested in religion and spirituality and wanted to find out about all religions, so went onto a Jewish message board and they were all accusing me of preaching and how I shouldn't be on there if I didn't agree with them, so it's nice to have a proper discussion. It has been enlightening and interesting to find out your opinions and think I found out what I wanted to know.

Oh, just thought I would add, I'm studying law and we will cover about the legally recognised sex of a person.

Curious241 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:08 pm If I was a man I don't think I would like a pair of balls flapping around, although you are lucky with your penis that you can use the toilet standing up.

*i sit down when i pee, it feels much more comfy...*,

As for the question about the three chromasomes, for us humans the Y chromasome will always make you male however the extra X chromasome (60% cases from the maternal side) will make you the type of person that needs to come up with some excuse when the boys are forming teams and of course they are happy that you're leaving. Also under the microscope it can be determined that you're cells have barr bodies (just like a girl!) and are therefore eligible for the women's olympics (in the past) if it weren't for the two marbles in a bag between the legs and some other formation above. In the cases where the extra X is paternal they come out with long limbs as in the extra Y cases.)

I just thought I should mention: xxytalk.com. Great board, packed with lots of info on XXYness.

You ask a good question. There was a long thread some time ago that talked about what a Eunuch was. For some it just means no testicles. But if you have that issue and take hormones? Are you a Eunuch? I think no. As with those that have testicles that don't work but take hormones. Are they a Eunuch? Again I think not.

Most agree that a Eunuch is a person who has lost both of his testicles (Or they don't function) at an early age and thus grows up without going through puberty and has no defining features of being male. Others tend to add in men who were castrated later in life but refuse to take Testosterone (or Estrogen) to "define" themselves.

And while I would be relieved to loose my painful, broken, shrunken testicles and get (At least) a healthy set of Silicone Testicles I would not wish to be defined as a eunuch. As Jerry and George said "Not that there is anything wrong with that!"

mrt (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am You ask a good question. There was a long thread some time ago that talked about what a Eunuch was. For some it just means no testicles. But if you have that issue and take hormones? Are you a Eunuch? I think no. As with those that have testicles that don't work but take hormones. Are they a Eunuch? Again I think not.

Most agree that a Eunuch is a person who has lost both of his testicles (Or they don't function) at an early age and thus grows up without going through puberty and has no defining features of being male. Others tend to add in men who were castrated later in life but refuse to take Testosterone (or Estrogen) to "define" themselves.

And while I would be relieved to loose my painful, broken, shrunken testicles and get (At least) a healthy set of Silicone Testicles I would not wish to be defined as a eunuch. As Jerry and George said "Not that there is anything wrong with that!"

Actually, age has nothing to do with defining a eunuch. The only qualification for that title is the absence of testicles. Non-funtioning but present testicles could probably qualify, but does not meet historical standards. But then things evolve, don't they?

devi (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:35 am As for the question about the three chromasomes, for us humans the Y chromasome will always make you male however the extra X chromasome (60% cases from the maternal side) will make you the type of person that needs to come up with some excuse when the boys are forming teams and of course they are happy that you're leaving. Also under the microscope it can be determined that you're cells have barr bodies (just like a girl!) and are therefore eligible for the women's olympics (in the past) if it weren't for the two marbles in a bag between the legs and some other formation above. In the cases where the extra X is paternal they come out with long limbs as in the extra Y cases.)

And don't forget people who have so-called 'mosaic genetics', some cells containing XX chromosomes and others containing XY.

kristoff wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:39 pm Actually, age has nothing to do with defining a eunuch. The only qualification for that title is the absence of testicles. Non-funtioning but present testicles could probably qualify, but does not meet historical standards. But then things evolve, don't they?

I bow to your wisdom. I looked it up and your right. It says "Castrated human male."

Nothing whatsoever about age or use of testosterone. I guess I would have to admit a desire to not be "identified" in the future that way but.... What can you say? eunuch lite?

So for those of our friends who use drugs to perform a chemical castration they can claim that title (if they wish) and of course they have the unique ability to be un-castrated thus no longer a eunuch assuming they can stand the effects of going of the anti-androgens.

The endocrinologist I see includes those of us with non functioning testes but, he doesn't much like the term "eunuch". I do. --FLO--

I personally don't have any problems with the term eunuch, and do consider myself one despite taking HRT. It's almost as much a personal decision as it is a biological condition.

Many men who have had prostate cancer are now technically eunuchs, although I doubt that more than a few would ever acknowledge or see themselves as such.

Testicularly-challenged, maybe?

In your original post you stated "....perverted fantasies of being castrated" and "

Curious241 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:57 am maybe perverted is the wrong word, but can't think of another

". Here are some alternatives for you: abberant, deviant, eccentric, abnormal, atypical. By the way, the clinical term for sexual perversion is "paraphilia".

In my youth I took offense when people referred to people with castration fantasies as "perverted". Eventually, I got over it. I accept the fact that society considers me a "pervert" because of my paraphilia. I freely admit to being "eccentric", "deviant", "perverted", and "abnormal. I am not particularly proud of my paraphilia and I am not ashamed of it. I am glad that I will never be labeled "normal" by society at large. Unfortunately, the label of "pervert" has the unfortunate consequence of being associated in general with a group of people that includes child molesters and serial killers.

Sticks and stones....?

Hummm.... Well words mean things. I really r e a l l y have to wrap my head around that one. If being hormonally challanged makes you a eunuch I've probably never been anything but one except for a short period between puberty and having my pair fried by the mumps.

IEunuch (Who never gets enough respect) you say you take HRT? I'm way curious on how you feel on it, what you take and what kind of levels your at. Without intending any offense to those who seek a testosterone free life my life just sucked with even low levels. I don't want "Body Builder" levels but normal range for males is like heaven for me.

I think the idea that Eunuch = Non Male? Is the gist of why this doesn't float my boat. But of course I'm a dolt and probably not thinking this out clearly. :-\

I think as I read my post that its probably insulting to some... If I can end by saying I really don't intend that I'm thinking (rethinking) out loud.

mrt (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 pm Hummm.... Well words mean things. I really r e a l l y have to wrap my head around that one. If being hormonally challanged makes you a eunuch I've probably never been anything but one except for a short period between puberty and having my pair fried by the mumps.

IEunuch (Who never gets enough respect) you say you take HRT? I'm way curious on how you feel on it, what you take and what kind of levels your at. Without intending any offense to those who seek a testosterone free life my life just sucked with even low levels. I don't want "Body Builder" levels but normal range for males is like heaven for me.

I think the idea that Eunuch = Non Male? Is the gist of why this doesn't float my boat. But of course I'm a dolt and probably not thinking this out clearly. :-\

I think as I read my post that its probably insulting to some... If I can end by saying I really don't intend that I'm thinking (rethinking) out loud.

This kind of thinking often shows up here. It is a good place to explore it

I don't think that "eunuch = non-male" is accurate. Male is a genetic condition (defect to some) that is not changed by eunuchism. Typicaly male behavior may change as will reproductive capacity but that is hardly the same thing. --FLO--

mrt (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 pm IEunuch (Who never gets enough respect) you say you take HRT? I'm way curious on how you feel on it, what you take and what kind of levels your at. Without intending any offense to those who seek a testosterone free life my life just sucked with even low levels. I don't want "Body Builder" levels but normal range for males is like heaven for me.

I t

ake cypionate, 200mg every other week. Personally, I don't find it as good as the 'real' thing, and not as effective in terms of things like libido, etc. However, since my tests keep coming back in the 'normal' range*, that's what they're keeping me on.

mrt (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 pm I think the idea that Eunuch = Non Male? Is the gist of why this doesn't float my boat. But of course I'm a dolt and probably not thinking this out clearly. :-\

That gets into one of those personal definition areas. There are a lot of people around here who see castration as a way to become a third sex, neither male nor female. There are those who just want to be rid of their sex drive, but don't necessarily want to stop being male, as well. There are those who lost them involuntarily, and definitely don't see themselves as any less male because of it.

*Canada uses a different measuring system, but my last test (done just before having my next shot) came back with levels of 11.9 nmol/L, which is on the low end of 'normal', or just under depending upon which values you consider 'normal'.

Hi Curious241 and welcome to EA!

I wanted to thank you for watching This Morning, and - particularly - for taking the time to ask the questions. People here are particularly lovely and I'm sure you will get some very friendly responses. As you know, we are a very diverse group; some are here voluntarily and some involuntarily. Of those who are voluntary eunuchs, the only commonly perceived connection is the idea of castration itself. And of these, it seems there are two distinct groups; those who see it as a gender dysphoria and those who's desires are probably better described as fetishistic. But before dismissing the fetishistic group as completely different, I would like to suggest something which has occurred to me recently.

Before castration, even I would harm myself. I may even have displayed some of the "perverted"(?) attributes you described. But before dismissing these entirely as simply a perverted sex act, I would like to remind people of something.

Many (if not most?) male-to-female transsexuals will have experienced some form of self-harm directed at the genitals, or the desire to loose them. I know one or two myself with very similar 'fantasies' to the ones I used to have.

I am here now, with them removed with absolutely no desire to harm myself further. I've come to absolutely love my body. It makes me shiver with cold and makes my skin crawl to think of some of the things I did to myself back then. It wasn't me. But a different me.

Testosterone is what makes someone male. It grows facial hair, builds body mass, but above all promotes sexual arousal.

Maybe there is some connection? Is it possible that the subconscious desire to remove this private (and sexual!) part of the body - in the presence of more testosterone than this person is happy with - can manifest itself in a strange kind of erroticized hatred (resentment?) of that part. These 'mutilations' being subconsciously directed at the self? (and ultimately the desired removal?) of the offending part?

Maybe there is more connection that just the act of castration itself?

I t

BossTamsin (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:42 am ake cypionate, 200mg every other week. Personally, I don't find it as good as the 'real' thing, and not as effective in terms of things like libido, etc. However, since my tests keep coming back in the 'normal' range*, that's what they're keeping me on.

That gets into one of those personal definition areas. There are a lot of people around here who see castration as a way to become a third sex, neither male nor female. There are those who just want to be rid of their sex drive, but don't necessarily want to stop being male, as well. There are those who lost them involuntarily, and definitely don't see themselves as any less male because of it.

*Canada uses a different measuring system, but my last test (done just before having my next shot) came back with levels of 11.9 nmol/L, which is on the low end of 'normal', or just under depending upon which values you consider 'normal'.

I guess thats it for me. I spoke to a surgeon who does SRS (Sex Change) surgery about doing my Orchiectomy and Implants. She said she had done M2F mostly and some F2M but with me she would be doing what? m2M I told her and she thought this was great. And this is really how I feel. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting a M2E procedure. Its just not what I'm looking for.

On your levels. I know how it can suck being on the "low but normal" end of the lab tests when the labs are using old 1998 documentation on what is "normal" and acceptable. I had to be the squeeky wheel and did some research that I brought to my Doctor to ask "What about this?" One thing is an average Testosterone vrs Age chart and the other is the AACE guidelines for treating men with Hypogonadism printed in 2002. You should be able to find both with Google but email or PM me where you want it and I'll be MORE then happy to send this. There is a good book called the Testosterone Syndrome which I highly suggest if your trying to get feeling like the "old" you.

I'm going to try to get less uptight about the "E" word some of my best friends are ahh... that word. WOW do I sound like an idiot today....

mrt (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:17 am I guess thats it for me. I spoke to a surgeon who does SRS (Sex Change) surgery about doing my Orchiectomy and Implants. She said she had done M2F mostly and some F2M but with me she would be doing what? m2M I told her and she thought this was great. And this is really how I feel. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting a M2E procedure. Its just not what I'm looking for.

<<snip>>

I'm going to try to get less uptight about the "E" word some of my best friends are ahh... that word. WOW do I sound like an idiot today....

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to spring your m2M coinage on a flock of sex researchers on Thursday evening. It's certainly real and it needs to be considered in the spectrum of research and medical intervention.

While you've made it clear from the very beginning here that you were not interested in an M2E transition, I hope that you've found the kind of help (and sympathetic ear) here that has been helpful. I know that you have helped many others through your kindness and understanding.

You are a valued member of the group. Thank you for your many contributions. I hope to see many more in the future.

JesusA wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:10 pm I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to spring your m2M coinage on a flock of sex researchers on Thursday evening. It's certainly real and it needs to be considered in the spectrum of research and medical intervention.

While you've made it clear from the very beginning here that you were not interested in an M2E transition, I hope that you've found the kind of help (and sympathetic ear) here that has been helpful. I know that you have helped many others through your kindness and understanding.

You are a valued member of the group. Thank you for your many contributions. I hope to see many more in the future.

Thanks Jesus! I know that my slant is not the same as everyone elses and I really (honest) don't intend to offend those that I'm not in tune with. I've learned a lot about gender issues (for example) that people have and I've come to have a greater appreciation for those folks. As one example.

I started along this path rather unwilling. My MD listened to my problems and was very matter of fact that "fixing" my broken testicles was not in the cards. That since they were broken and shrinking - cosmetic replacements might be worth considering. The logic took a long time for me to wrap my head around. I felt that I was loosing my "manhood" but... Of course my manhood was shrinking and non functional. So what was I really loosing? Getting to the point of going back and saying I was now interesting in talking about this and moving forward was full of embaressment. This forum let me ask lots of questions (Many dumb but...) but it helped to speak to men about the pain of surgery, how they felt afterwards and most important the men I spoke to that were using HRT after the bilateral.

Jesus I applaud what you trying to do. Getting more mainstream doctors up to speed on this is a worthy cause. I think all the screwing around and time spent trying to get this taken care of has made me a bit of a zealot. I have greater appreciation for people like Dr Bowers in Colorado, Dr Alter in California and New York City (and others) who are open to helping men in a straightforward way.

I should probably ass that m2M defines part of my problem. Its probably was what made me first consider orchiectomy and implants as an option.

Chronic pain and the idea (from the last Surgeon I spoke to) that urologists are all trained to NEVER do an Orchiectomy to solve pain issues because of possible law suits needs to be looked into and solved. From a large amount of the medical literature that I've read it is a very valid final step to solving chronic testicular pain. For what its worth the surgeon I'm working with read over what I've collected, noted the names of the writers and the outcomes and did a 180 on his NO, NEVER, WE DON'T DO THIS policy. Which I think is progress.

Good luck with your talk! Tell us how it goes.