Eunuch Hall of Fame

[WheelyFixed]

Thanks for your list, NulloGuy, and your comments on eunuchs in the military...

I know it was supposedly not allowed if one was a eunuch when enlisting, at least if they noticed... Would it have been an automatic discharge (presumably medical) if a person lost them while serving? I think it is a somewhat ridiculous prohibition if a person was otherwise suited for a given role, but then the military has never been noted for a high level of sensibility...

I'm all in favor of people being able to achieve their goals, and it is good when they reach them, but to me it makes a bit of difference whether it was done while enlisted or as a civilian...

WheelyFixed

[dandelion]

Would it have been an automatic discharge (presumably medical) if a person lost them while serving?

I have no idea about the military, but I would think it would be treated as any other amputations? Plus... If they lose their package from an IED, wouldn't it be extremely cruel to get discharged because of that? (Though if they sustained so much damage to their groin, they most likely would have suffered great damage to their lower limbs and continued service would be unlikely....)

[WheelyFixed]

I'm drawing a blank on the name, but IIRC the Commanding General when the US invaded Kuwait in order to kick out Sadam, (which one of the Gulf Wars was that one) was a leg amputee as a result of a service injury... According to a book I read he said the military policy was that if a person could show that their wounds weren't such as to prevent them from doing their jobs, they could stay in if they wanted... Apparently since he was already high enough rank, he was able to make a case that he could get around well enough with his prosthetic to do the job since he wasn't going to be fighting in combat himself....

Presumably a soldier might have a harder time at low rank since their jobs are more physical.... In the case of a soldier losing his junk, it might be a question of how bad any other injuries might be, and possibly whether he was in a combat role, or a 'support' role...

I remember reading that one of the combatants in WWII, pretty sure it was Germany, had developed what was described as a 'castration mine' that was deployed at least some... It was an anti-personnel mine that supposedly had a spring loaded charge that when triggered would shoot the shaped charge up about 2-3' before it exploded sending out shrapnel horizontally - but I never saw any info about how effective it was in practice, or what happened to the guys hit by it... (Definitely not a "humane" weapon for sure!)

WheelyFixed

[dandelion]

Let me bring this discussion back to the older times. What better than to nominate a historic historian from more than 2 millennia ago? Pueros may find this interesting. (Spoiler: Don’t get on the wrong side of a historian!)


Sima Qian (司馬遷)(c. 145 - c. 86 BCE) was a Chinese historian during the early Han dynasty (漢朝) who is widely regarded as the father of Chinese historiography[3]. Born in Longmen (龍門, now Hancheng, Shaanxi province 陝西韓城), he was the son of Sima Tan (司馬談), who served as the grand historian (or astronomer royal) at the Han court[1][3].

Career and Contributions

Sima Qian succeeded his father as grand historian in 108 BCE after his father's death[1]. This position combined responsibilities for astronomical observations, calendar regulation, and keeping records of state events[1]. In 105 BCE, he was among the scholars chosen to reform the Chinese calendar[3].

His most significant achievement was authoring the Shiji (史記, "Historical Records" or "Records of the Grand Historian"), which he completed around 94 BCE[2][3]. This monumental work was the first comprehensive history of China, covering more than two thousand years from the legendary Yellow Emperor (黃帝) to the reign of Emperor Wu of Han (漢武帝, "The Martial Emperor")[3].

Innovations in Historical Writing

Sima Qian revolutionized Chinese historiography in several ways:

1. He created a universal history that covered not only China but neighboring nations like Korea and Vietnam[3].
2. He used diverse sources, including interviews with witnesses, site visits, and examination of documents from different regions[3].
3. He broke with the traditional chronological structure by dividing his work into five sections: basic annals (often reserved for rulers), chronological tables, treatises, accounts of ruling families, and biographies[3].
4. He included people from all walks of life in his biographies, not just nobles and officials, featuring poets, merchants, comedians, assassins, and philosophers[3].

Personal Tragedy

In 99 BCE, Sima Qian defended General Li Ling (李陵), who had been blamed for an unsuccessful campaign against the Xiongnu (匈奴, the nomadic peoples of the Eurasian steppes)[3]. This act deeply offended Emperor Wu, and Sima Qian was given the choice of execution or castration[3]. He chose castration so that he could complete his historical work[1][3]. Despite this humiliation, he continued to serve in the Han court as a court archivist, a position reserved for eunuchs[3].

The Inclusion of Xiang Yu (項羽) in Basic Annals

One of the interestering aspects of Sima Qian's work was his decision to include Xiang Yu in the Basic Annals section, despite Xiang Yu never being an official emperor. Xiang Yu was the King of Chu (楚王), the biggest rival and enemy of the Han dynasty to a unified China. Xiang Yu was ultimately defeated by the founding Han Emperor Gao Zu (漢高祖) and committed suicide about a century prior (202 BCE). Sima Qian justified including the defeated king into the Basic Annals by noting that Xiang Yu, "though not officially emperor, in actuality ruled the country for a time"[13]. This placement reflects Sima's approach of organizing historical figures based on their actual impact rather than just their official titles.

Interestingly, Emperor Wu of Han, under whom Sima Qian served and suffered castration, does not appear to have received a dedicated Basic Annals chapter. As Sima Qian drew closer to his own time, he tended to record "mere summaries of the official acts of the emperors, quoting at length from memorials and imperial edicts," possibly to avoid direct criticism of the reigning emperor. In my very humble opinion, it was a a very subtle protest to his mistreatments by the emperor.

Legacy

Sima Qian is remembered not only as a historian but also as a master of flexible Chinese prose[1]. His work served as the model for official histories in China and throughout East Asia for centuries[3]. The Shiji changed how history in China was written and understood, establishing a standard against which all later histories would be measured[1][2].

His approach to history was distinctly Confucian, viewing his historical work as an act of filial piety, completing the project his father had begun[2][3]. Yet he was also innovative in treating non-Chinese peoples, such as the Xiongnu, as human beings equal to those of the Middle Kingdom, rather than as savages[3].

Sima Qian likely died around 86 BCE, possibly around the same time as Emperor Wu[3].

Sources
[1] Sima Qian | Chinese Historian, Scientist & Father of ... - Britannica https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sima-Qian
[2] Sima Qian - World History Encyclopedia https://www.worldhistory.org/Sima_Qian/
[3] Sima Qian - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian
[4] Sima Qian's Imperial Dilemma | Oxford and Empire Network https://oxfordandempire.web.ox.ac.uk/ar ... al-dilemma
[5] [PDF] Sima Qian's Conquest Of History" By G. Hardy - Swarthmore College https://works.swarthmore.edu/cgi/viewco ... ac-chinese
[6] Sima Qian | 司馬遷 - Tao Te Ching https://laotzu.xyz/author/display?id=560
[7] Records of the Grand Historian | Columbia University Press http://cup.columbia.edu/book/records-of ... 0231081672
[8] The reception of Sima Qian in the world—Editor's introduction https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 24.2350897
[9] Literature and History in the Shi ji of Sima Qian http://cup.columbia.edu/book/literature ... 9882373280
[10] Sima Qian: China's 'grand historian' - BBC News https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19835484
[11] The History of Others: Foreign Peoples in Early Chinese ... https://www.ias.edu/ideas/2008/di-cosmo-historiography
[12] Worlds of Bronze and Bamboo | Columbia University Press http://cup.columbia.edu/book/worlds-of- ... 0231113045
[13] [PDF] Introduction to “The Records of the Grand Historian” “Sima Qian - edX https://courses.edx.org/assets/coursewa ... OCR_1_.pdf

[rufusdomition]

I know of at least 3 nullos who have worn a US uniform. One army, one navy, one marine.

wish to know more about theirs stories

All three are gay and did their mods in stages, being castrated first, then sometime later having the rest removed. They all did it AFTER they took off the uniform, so they were no longer part of the military when it happened.

Before they did it, the army and navy guys were both hung about the same, with 7" cocks and large-medium to large nuts. However, the Marine had a rather large package, I'd say reasonably large nuts and a cock that was at least 9".

The army guy is a former paratrooper.

The army and navy guys are about the same age, in their mid-50's, and the marine is retired and over age 70.

There are also at least 3 currently active members of the US armed forces I know are planning mods once they retire or otherwise get discharged. I'm not sure about 2 of them, but the third is planning to get nullified fairly quickly once he's released from service in a few years, about a week after he gets out, if he can arrange it.

Glad to know there awesome stories. Thanks for sharing.

[Pueros]

I'm very ashamed to confess that I had never heard of Sima Qian before reading Dandelion's last post to this thread. His clearly expert knowledge of Chinese eunuchs has fascinated me, so much so that I'll have to research much more of the subject when I can.

Thank you, Dandelion, for enlightening me yet again!

PUEROS

[dandelion]

I'm very ashamed to confess that I had never heard of Sima Qian before reading Dandelion's last post to this thread. His clearly expert knowledge of Chinese eunuchs has fascinated me, so much so that I'll have to research much more of the subject when I can.

Thank you, Dandelion, for enlightening me yet again!

PUEROS

Thank you pueros. You are too kind. These are just people I learned from history class years ago. My teacher would probably come out of retirement and lecture me if I tell him I forgot!

[Friotler7]

Just discovered a tragic story about David/Brenda/Brian Reimer that is quite remarkable and maybe fitting here.

His parents took him and his twin brother to do circumcision when they were 4 months old. While during the surgery, something went wrong with the machine and it completely burned Brian's penis to a point of having to be amputated.

Parents visit a psychologists that advised them to grow him like a girl, without ever speaking to him what happened. They did so and also castrated him (making him a nullo for the rest of his life), but David, now renamed to Brenda, grew as a quite masculine girl. When reached puberty, he was very lonely and unfitting to other girl's life. His parents decided to tell him the truth and he decided to make a penis reconstruction surgery.

He ended his life at 38 years old.

Apparently, the gonads are not the only factor to influence the differences between male and female behavior. Also, I don't get why people do circumcision without real medical reasons. There's a movement that is classifying circumcision as genital mutilation on young boys, and I tend to agree.

Here's the article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11814300

[WheelyFixed]

Back on EAv2 there was some discussion of research that had found differences in the brain structure between 'normal' males and M->F trans individuals, including ones that had not had any hormones, surgery, or other medical transition care.

This was research on deceased individuals, so presumably at this time of limited value as a diagnostic... Also no mention of us voluntary eunuch types as I recall...

The claim was that some of the structures around the pituitary gland in the trans individuals were closer to those of women than they were of men. Since at least some of the people studied had not had hormones it seems that the changes weren't due to any transition care. The argument was made that this showed that there was an actual biological basis for being trans, as opposed to the claims that it was "only" a mental issue...

I don't have the details, but I think Jesus might...

However it may make sense of the failure of 'David/Brenda' to be happy as a girl, and possibly some of the other 'detransitioners' that found their surgery to be a 'mistake'... If there is a brain difference, and a person does not have it, then it seems there would be a problem.

WheelyFixed

[dandelion]

If I remember correctly the psychiatrist believed in nurture over nature when it comes to sexuality. The accident was an opportunity for him to prove his point so he convinced the parents to do SRS for the baby. Obviously he's been proven wrong instead.