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bobover3 (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:29 pm Punkypink has persuaded me in her many posts that gender is an identity, not an anatomy. If you feel like a man, and have played a man's part in society, then you are a man. That said, a man who didn't know you might think that opting for castration signified your rejection of masculinity, or at least a deep ambiguity about your identity. Many people, maybe most people, can not tolerate ambiguity. They prefer clear and simple identifications that do not require thought and do not provoke anxiety. What sort of group was this? Had you any reason to expect this man to understand your choice? Do not expect ordinary people, unprepared for the extraordinary, to be as accepting as they should be.

A rare rare occasion where i can actually agree with anything bob's had to say. Especially about how most men may look at castration as a rejection of masculinity and ambiguity. Even most trans people cannot accept ambiguity, as acknowledging the existance of ambiguity may feel like a cornerstone of their own affirmation being removed. I myself only finally came to terms with accepting the existance of gender ambiguity in the past couple of years, once I understood that it did not apply to me at least.

I think it is perhaps common for most people not to be able to understand something outside of their own sphere of existance, not initially at first, especially if there is a sort of perceived "threat" to themselves. For example I've often felt that women could accept trans women more easily than men, because a trans woman symbolically may appear, similiarly as with castration, a rejection of masculinity. To a man who doesn't understand what makes gender what it is, especially one who has confidence issues with his gender, he may feel that if it is possible for someone male to reject masculinity and identify and present as a woman, their own identity may feel rocky.

I am sure there are men of all sorts. Castrated men and non-castrated men. I am also sure there are eunuchs of all sorts. Castrated eunuchs and non-castrated eunuchs. Ultimately if you feel like a man, who cares what sort of body you have and what you've done to it.

Elizabeth (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:16 pm I played the part of a man in society and that did not make me a man. So I would keep the definition simple. You are whatever you believe yourself to be. You have no control; however, if others believe you to be something else. In the end, what you believe about yourself is your reality.

Elizabeth

Giggles. I believe I am a cyborg with built in 20mm autocannons instead of arms. But everytime I try to fire them I am sadly disappointed when nothing happens =(

sorry, couldn't resist! xD

Is a eunuch a man? A eunuch can either be male or female. Born-eunuchs are often assigned to be females since at birth they lack male genitalia even though they also lack any female capacity to bear children in the future. Preborn-eunuchs are almost always assigned as females although they also lack this capacity to bear children. Many born-eunuchs do not get discovered as having "eunuchoid habitus" often times even on into many of their late adolescence. Most of these have been assigned the male gender and many today are given testosterone treatments. However nearly all of these are unable to have children either. Made-eunuchs nearly always get assigned as males since birth but then later due to medical intervention they become eunuchs also. They will range from pre-pubescent on into late manhood. In many societies pre-pubescent and early pubescent males can be considered as non-males. However our society needs all the warriors it can get. So in short as long as a eunuch was asigned to be a male at birth then this person (a eunuch) is a man.

jako9999 (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:03 pm Sorry this has probably been on here before. I was a bit hurt yesturday when someone I didnt know in a group said I was no loger a man and he ment it and was realy negative towards me. I stood up for us all and said I am among the elite group (then through my pint at him not realy) So ok may be here is correct my nuts are gone which iam still very happy about but I have 3 children, a dick, like sex and feel and look the same apart from a slightly smaller bulg in the trousers.

So officialy what am I apart from special and amongst freinds.

Thanks

Interesting choice of words by your "critic." He says that, in his opinion, you are no longer a "man." Since definitions of "manhood" are fraught with cultural and psychological baggage of all sorts, he was no doubt reflecting some narrow set of criteria that he, or others of a similar mindset or background, use to define who is a "man." To say that you, or anyone, is not a "man" because of the presence or absence of two masses between your legs is just plain ignorant. To some, one is not a "man" unless he regularly belches, farts, drinks large quantities of beer and enjoys demeaning homosexuals and watching contact sports.

He didn't venture into the more subtle definition of "male" and "female," whereby one is female if one has two of the same kind of sex chromosomes (XX) or male if one has two different kind of sex chromosomes (XY). He might have been confusing your situation with that of a 47,XXY male, who can exhibit hypogonadism and develop Klinefelter's syndrome, but he doesn't sound quite that sophisticated. It gets a lot more complex when you consider hermaphroditism and pseudohermaphroditism, but that sounds way beyond his IQ level.

IMHO, it's up to you how you identify yourself gender-wise. As a eunuch, you can identify yourself as "male," "eunuch," or "transgendered." It all depends on who you are.

.................

punkypink (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:42 pm I am sure there are men of all sorts. Castrated men and non-castrated men. I am also sure there are eunuchs of all sorts. Castrated eunuchs and non-castrated eunuchs. Ultimately if you feel like a man, who cares what sort of body you have and what you've done to it.

Conversely:

(1) Is a woman who has had a hysterectomy no longer a woman?

(2) Is a woman who has had her ovaries removed no longer a woman?

(3) Is a woman who has had a masectomy no longer a woman?

(4) Is a flat chested woman (one who never developed breasts) not a woman?

What would be the difference between:

(1) A man who has his penis, testicles, scrotum (and possibly prostate) removed.

(2) A woman who has her breasts, uterus, ovaries (and possibly vagina) removed.

They no longer have organs or genitals of either sex and can't engage in penetrative

sexual activity so which are they (woman or man)?

punkypink (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:23 pm What about a genetic female dressed, looks, acts and sounds like a guy in the restroom? What if it was a

C&TL2745 (imported) wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:24 am cisgendered genetic female who's a drag king?

I have no idea, Emily. I imagine that I'd find another place to go pot

ty in the case where a genetic female appeared as a guy. ..................

Sandi

What difference does it make once you enter a private stall and close the door? Having a common area with sinks and mirrors for washing hands and fixing hair, etc should not present a privacy or gender related problem.

It isn't a penis or testicles that make a man, it's his actions, feelings (yes, men do have feelings), and attitude that make him a man. if you feel like a man, act like a man, and maintain a masculine demeanor, you're a man. If you feel like you have to attack others about their life choices, act like a whiny little snot, and your attitude sucks as the aforementioned person who questioned your being a man did, you're a misinformed, cynical asshole.

Well a bull is a bull and a beef is a beef, when a man lose the use of his testicles he can no longer do what a man has got to do, reproduce himself, If a castrated man is still a man what's an eunuch then?

Mac (imported) wrote: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:35 am What difference does it make once you enter a private stall and close the door? Having a common area with sinks and mirrors for washing hands and fixing hair, etc should not present a privacy or gender related problem.

I agree with this actually. Same for fitting rooms and the like. I don't see a problem at all when there are private stalls.

paring (imported) wrote: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:06 pm Well a bull is a bull and a beef is a beef, when a man lose the use of his testicles he can no longer do what a man has got to do, reproduce himself, If a castrated man is still a man what's an eunuch then?

Judging a book by its cover is inapplicable when one is talking about a sentient species like us. If the ability to reproduce in a certain defines gender, then you're indirectly saying that a trans woman is a man and a trans man is a woman. On this boards, I'd advise you to carefully reconsider making such ignorant statements about gender.

How a person acts defines them as a Man, Woman, or other? Now a eunuch is a male which may not have the male genitals, but it does not define the persons gender, as may other things do that.

_g

This discussion always breaks down because there is no workable definition of what a man is or what a Eunuch is. I have been in this discussion many times except instead of Eunuch, insert woman. Other than DNA it can be real difficult to actually find a significant difference. While we can make generalizations about how men, women, or eunuchs behave, all are capable of the actions, feelings, and perceptions of the others. Man can pass for women, women can pass for men, eunuchs can pass as men or women, women can pass for eunuchs.

I think that when people talk about being a "man", they are not really talking about genitals. What is it to "man up" or "get a pair"? It means stereotypical behavior of a male or what society expects of a male bodied person. But those expectations alone are not enough to make anyone anything, because many people just give up on what people expect of them once they realize they can not fulfill the expectations. I always believed that being a "good man" meant first and foremost to be honest, take care of my responsibilities, put my family first, have integrity, be dependable, be loyal, be a hard worker, pay your taxes, take the worry off of everyone else. I just don't see where having testicles or not really makes a difference in those things.

Elizabeth

Take the old definition of a duck, and put in human attributes and you have your answer!

smoothie36 (imported) wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:45 pm Take the old definition of a duck, and put in human attributes and you have your answer!

I can think of a lot of real life examples that would definitively disprove this claim.

The answer is real easy, simple and always correct, If you are a man and you are castrated and you still think of yourself as a man you are, you are just a man without balls.

I am a eunuch, I am also a man, its just that simple.

If you are a eunuch and you believe in your heart you are no longer a man then you were most likely not a man when you had balls.

Its all between your ears its never been between your legs.

River

By definition from dictionary, men who have had theirs testicles removed or rendered non functional are eunuchs. needless to tag those men with the word eunuch but they are no less eunuch. If a man is not a shame to be balless why should he be a shame to be called eunuch, unless they them self perceived eunuchs as something less than a human being. Peoples can still love them as much as before perhaps even more. I've had few dogs that have been castrated and I loved them very much and I've cried every time I lost one.

From a biological standpoint, among the primates a male is one that is born with a 'y' chromosome and no over-riding second 'x' chromosome (as in a few rare cases of 'xxy' females). Certain males can get mistaken for females but being childless and lacking certain female anatomical parts, upon investigation they are found to have a 'y' chromosome. These are 'xy' CAIS which technically are 'male'. However since their testicles (since they do not have ovaries but instead their glands are structured like testicles) are unproductive they are deemed as 'eunuchs'. Then there are many other types of eunuchs as a consequence of 'xy' PAIS, xxy, the mumps, other diseases, accidents, and finally surgical removal of the testicles. A male may not necessarily be considered an adult (a 'man') that lacks full mature adult developement.

In this respect many of our matriarchal native american societies which considered there to be a 'third gender' were right afterall.

paring (imported) wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:09 am By definition from dictionary, men who have had theirs testicles removed or rendered non functional are eunuchs. needless to tag those men with the word eunuch but they are no less eunuch. If a man is not a shame to be balless why should he be a shame to be called eunuch, unless they them self perceived eunuchs as something less than a human being. Peoples can still love them as much as before perhaps even more. I've had few dogs that have been castrated and I loved them very much and I've cried every time I lost one.

Because as I have pointed out earlier, eunuch is both an identity AND an adjective. There IS such a thing as an eunuch man, if one happens to be a castrated man who still identifies as a man. The very existance of trans people disproves that someone without balls automatically becomes not a man, since conversely someone who has balls is not automatically a man.

Devi, I'd point out that being female and being a woman are 2 different things. I think you assign too much importance to the physical, and too little to the soul/psychological/whatever-else-you-may-call-it. Also, to pre-empt what I'm half expecting as a counterpoint, please don't start with the "if you have a cock you are a potential rapist" thing. I've had quite enough of being called a potential rapist the last time, thank you.

I know I'm quite late to this discussion, but;

There's a town near here called Estes Park. It being a park, a wide flat valley, it annually

has a large congregation of elks. Males and females who come to graze and have romantic

encounters. It is also a popular tourist town, and elk are not the least of the attraction.

A year or so ago a particularly handsome elk, call him Bruce, was very boistrous in his

courting, and put on much show of chasing off human animals The local humane authorities

decided that something had to be done about Bruce and after much consideration they

tranquilized him and sawed off his fine rack of horns. On awakening Bruce was mortified.

Heartbroken and despondent Bruce skulked away to the mountains, never to show his

mutilated head again.

That is what I like about this site and this thread, keeping things in perspective, Thanks Sweetpickle.

River

hi y thinks so yes mean iam still having my penis but no longer a sack and balls but feel my self not other then when y had my sack and balls so for the answer is yes iam still a man but my male hormens to still be a man y get now from injections

punkypink (imported) wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:16 am Because as I have pointed out earlier, eunuch is both an identity AND an adjective. There IS such a thing as an eunuch man

Devi, I'd point out that being female and being a woman are 2 different things.

PLEASE Re-read what I had written over again. You have constantly miconstrued my words throughout our discussions.

Fact is there are eunuchs which are identified as female from the time of birth, most as male, and so many of us as in between in a sort of separate all inclusive category, sort of a third gender construct which in this society other than India are told that they are male.

And yes biology has everything to do with male and female and why we're even living and breathing on this planet in the first place.

One thing that a eunuch can be said to be unique about is trying NOT to explain to a lady that they can have sex but cannot ever have children. The lady will always think or say something like, "Yeah RIGHT!!!". So when that kind of conversation starts coming about and they start becoming more and more inquisitive, it's just better to back off otherwise you'll see that snicker of "Yeah RIGHT".

The eunuch , even if he have no shred of tissue of his reproductive system, is MALE. How he regards himself, as well as how others regard him, is irrelevant. Every cell in his body is MALE. His DNA has a Y chromosome. That's all it takes.

No matter what he may do to his body chemically or surgically, he cannot get rid of his Y chromosomes. He is irrevocably and irreversibly MALE. Similarly, Chastity Bono may call herself Chaz , take testosterone, have a prosthetic penis installed, ,or whatever she wishes, but, lacking a Y chromosome, she is and always will be FEMALE.

xsmasturbator (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:42 am The eunuch , even if he have no shred of tissue of his reproductive system, is MALE. How he regards himself, as well as how others regard him, is irrelevant. Every cell in his body is MALE. His DNA has a Y chromosome. That's all it takes.

No matter what he may do to his body chemically or surgically, he cannot get rid of his Y chromosomes. He is irrevocably and irreversibly MALE. Similarly, Chastity Bono may call herself Chaz , take testosterone, have a prosthetic penis installed, ,or whatever she wishes, but, lacking a Y chromosome, she is and always will be FEMALE.

You are absolutely correct, from a chromosome point of view ONLY.

However, those of us who have been here a while and studied this know that its not your chromosomes or what is between your legs that make you male or female, its what is between your ears that counts.

River