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I had to think quite a while before I decided to post this. I'm really confused about who I am. I still feel totally comfortable being a transgender person, but I'm wondering what this eunuch/androgynous female-leaning gender ID really means.

This is important now because I'll be seeing the gender clinic endocrinologist Monday, and that has me thinking really hard about what my desires are. I've talked about possibly taking some estrogen at a dosage lower than required for a male to female transition. This would be in part to help combat my osteoporosis.

I've never been able to imagine myself living in a woman's body. I don't think I've changed my thinking on that but I'm so damned confused today I'm not absolutely sure. I do not like being confused!

I've reported that I'm finding myself increasingly attracted to men and in ways I never felt when I identified as a gay man. Lately, I've been openly flirting with men. I never understood flirting before I started Androcur over 3 months ago and I didn't know how to do it. Now, it just seems to happen. I don't feel gay when I'm doing this but feminine.

I find myself wishing that a man would grab me up in his arms (and I mean hold me over the ground), kiss me passionately and then make love to me.

When I was in seventh grade, my teacher took me outside class for a talk. He told me that I needed to walk a different way to fit in as one of the boys. He gave a demonstration of proper walking for a guy. I know he meant well but ever since I've got a low level kind of background awareness of how I'm walking. If I don't feel my style is quite right, I'll modify it. I can't believe I've been making these adjustments for decades.

Yesterday, I found it very easy to abandon this masculine walk for a more feminine one and it felt comfortable and enjoyable. I was really getting into it from my hips on down.

I've mentioned in my blog a memory from when I was four or five. Despite my mother's pleading, I didn't want to run around outside in warm weather without a shirt. I said something to the effect that it's not OK for girls to go around without shirts so why was it OK for me. I never took my shirt off and in later years it was still a difficult thing for me.

I absolutely hated puberty and would shave off my body hair before high school physicals. For years, I wouldn't wear shorts and short-sleeved shirts because I didn't want people to see that hair.

Yesterday, I was having a terrific time shopping for nice jewelry and had no problem telling the woman at the store that it was for me and that I'm transgender.

Last night, I went out to dinner and wore a new necklace I bought yesterday, which was pretty feminine, and one other necklace, admittedly fairly feminine too, on the outside of my dress shirt. I flirted with the waiter quite naturally.

Over the last three months, I've been very happy with the effects of chemical castration and feeling 'not male' and more emotional besides. I haven't felt depressed. I somehow cannot see myself in a woman's body, but I feel what I interpret to be very feminine feelings.

Where does this leave me? With feelings like these can I still be considered as having a eunuch gender ID? If I take some estrogen am I still a eunuch? I find the idea of taking some estrogen more attractive than having any level of testosterone replacement after castration. The problem with all this is that perhaps my feelings will change over time. I'll work through all this just like everything else. I made an extra appointment with my gender therapist for tomorrow afternoon. I want to talk with her again before seeing the endocrinologist next week.

This evening I am feeling a little depressed but I think it's temporary and will be gone by the morning. I made the mistake of taking a mood stabilizer last night that leaves me out of it and kind of more in a daze than is typical for me. Very foolish of me. I was feeling a little manic and should have waited until this morning and called the shrink. My psychiatrist has agreed to try a different drug when I next need it.

The most important things of all are site-related. Will I be disbarred from the Archive if I take some estrogen? Will members be saying, there goes that person who used to be male, then a eunuch (and one of us) and now who knows what?

Writing this has helped me gain some perspective. Time to soak in the tub and finish reading 'Cry to Heaven'.

-Danya

While I soaked in the tub, I was wondering why I was feeling even a little depression. I thought the mood stabilizer played some role but really couldn't be the whole explanation.

What I left out of the original post here was the hour-long phone call I had last night with a guy who likes dating transgender woman. He found me on a dating site where I was very clear I was not male 2 female, but something androgynous in between. He was still very interested and has persisted in trying to talk, which we finally did.

I was amazed at how feminine I felt as he spoke to me. Of course, he's done this before with other girls and was feeding me a line. Still, it fed into something and I was very aroused. As in hard, as in erect (lest there be any doubt since I've been on Androcur since Nov 2, 2007) for nearly the entire time we spoke. I wanted him to be the male, take charge and make love to me. He wants to come over. I told him that if I allow that, we'll meet in public first and I will let some friends know he is with me. On the one hand, I really want him to visit. OTOH, I'm a little afraid of allowing it. Once I make up my mind on how to handle this, I'll feel better.

This is what caused me further confusion today. The increasing feelings of sexuality, in a very different way than I've ever experienced, despite being on Androcur. The feelings of feminity. I just hadn't thought anything like this would happen when I began this adventure at the start of November.

My reaction to being chemically castrated is turning out to be much more complex than I would have imagined.

-Danya

Hummm.... more pondering... Well I would say its worth sending a post to Jesus and ask if its ok to talk to Prof W. He was very male but had prostate issues and needed to undergo some form of castration. He also went on Estrogen to make life easier and reported some modifications to his wiring. Talk to him and others who have tried castration with Estrogen. I "think" it changes you.

I know this is not a popular idea for many but I truly think Hormones do more to wire how we "are" then we give them credit. Having swooped back and forth between low and high Testosterone (and Estrogen) I know how it makes me feel. And I've then had hormone labs that verify this.

I admit feeling so different on adult levels of Testosterone that I almost backed out. I felt a little like Mr Spock turning into Horny Capt Kirk and it was kind of overwhelming for a short time. The thing is this. After I got over my short second puberty I liked how I was. Not perfect but clearly better. If I were in your shoes I would have a good sit down with the Gender Therapist and maybe set some kind of goals for what I wanted Estrogen to do for me and what I didn't want it to do and ask is this going to be right? Then, assuming I went on Estrogen I would start a Diary of my experience and see if it was mapping onto what I had for expectations and so on.

Make sense?

Anyway I think you will want to ponder this fully. I don't think anyone (who is not a jerk) is going to berate you no matter what you decide. We have our share of TS folks that we know and love and purists who are all Eunuch all the time and weirdos like me that are what? Medical castrates that want to be all male?? Anyway if "I" can stay here and be a part of this zoo why not you?

MrT, old buddy,

You offer some excellent advice and I really appreciate it. I also agree!

I'm not taking the idea of using estrogen, in any amount, lightly. The whole of idea of it was making me a little anxious last night. That's a healthy reaction, whether or not it winds up being the right thing for me to do.

I will approach Jesus about the possibility of emailing or speaking with Richard Wassersug. It's possible he may be a really private person and not want to speak with individuals. Or he may simply be too busy. He's been very open about his experiences in published articles. I admire Richard for helping to raise awareness of the plight of prostate cancer eunuchs. He's done that in a very sensitive way while telling his own story.

Today's visit with my gender therapist when very well. Part of the reason I made the appointment was that I wanted to get clear on something I thought she was saying on the last visit. I don't remember exactly what she said now but we were very clear that we understood each other at the end of today's visit.

She told me that I was free to explore my gender in any way I choose as far as hormones goes. I sort of knew that already from her report on my psychological fitness. The technical nature of her report still left me wondering a little about what her conclusion meant, despite the fact that it was plainly stated. It was good to hear in in plain English today.

It may have sounded, to some, like I was totally joking about still being welcome on the Archive if I go in a direction other than 'pure' eunuch. I was trying to make it light-hearted but this really is a concern for me.

The sense of community here and the caring and support that go with it are very important to me. I don't want to lose them.

-Danya

Todd

After much research on the Internet, I think I have discovered your true identity..or at least who you were.

You were, at one time in the past, the leader of a small planet. You were Emperor Todd Spengo and you ruled for several years before being deposed by stupid barbarians led by an earthman.

Hollywood even made a movie about entitled, "Mom and Dad Save the World."

Well then I want to add that I have few to no exceptions been made to feel welcome here when I still had "real" testes. I had an amazing time at last years MOM when I was still hefting my original pair (or was I half snipped? - when was the MOM?) anyway it didn't matter. Everyone was great. The only negative thing anyone said was that I wasn't black... Ok! I'm still working on that!

Anyway its a supportive group as far as I could tell so I would not give it a second thought. And btw if there are some people who are jack asses? Sister K has the right idea. Piss on em or "F" em...

If I booted all estrogen bestowed individuals from this site, there would be no site inasmuch as we ALL have some in us. The only question is how much, and I really could not give shit.

This week I am principally banning left-handed wankers who beat off ambidextrously while whistling dixie backwards. Got it? Good!

Mac,

Was this small planet at least a bit larger than the demoted Pluto? I've always felt I had a bit of royal flair about me , btw.

I need to sue for some of the royalties from the movie! Then I can retire as the now Empress Danya Spengo to my palace in Tahiti.

I always appreciate your humor and this post had me chuckling for quite some time.

-Danya

Yo Kristoff,

I would agree that '

kristoff wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:01 pm left-handed wankers who beat off ambidextrously

' are damned annoying and, even worse, embarassing to those of us with less well-developed wanking talent. Certainly, being able to simultaneously whistle Dixie backwards should earn them a place in front of a firing squad!

Thanks for your comments, pal.

-Danya

kristoff wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:01 pm If I booted all estrogen bestowed individuals from this site, there would be no site inasmuch as we ALL have some in us. The only question is how much, and I really could not give shit.

This week I am principally banning left-handed wankers who beat off ambidextrously while whistling dixie backwards. Got it? Good!

As your boss, I hereby officially prohibit you from singling me out for banning. Do you hear that?

Geez.... the nerve of some people.

Danya (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:28 am When I was in seventh grade, my teacher took me outside class for a talk. He told me that I needed to walk a different way to fit in as one of the boys. He gave a demonstration of proper walking for a guy. I know he meant well but ever since I've got a low level kind of background awareness of how I'm walking. If I don't feel my style is quite right, I'll modify it. I can't believe I've been making these adjustments for decades.

-Danya

I experienced something similar when I was attending camp at Stanford Children's Health Center. Only in my case it was just a comment made by one of the camp consolers to the other consolers about how I moved my hips like a girl when I walked. I don't even know if I was meant to hear it. All I know is it made me very aware of things and how it might not be OK to be myself. Sometimes I wonder who I would be now if I hadn't had to worry about who I was then.

Turned out I was a slow learner in 7th grade. I couldn't copy my teacher's walk on the first attempt! He had to show me several times. This reinforced my feeling of being different, although he was very kind in the way he approached this.

My parents, and most frequently my mother, would often make comments that I ran like a girl. I had no idea what she meant. I was simply running and having a good time.

Another teacher, 9th or 10th grade, taught my health class. He was adorable with dark hair and in his low 20s. He was also well-built, but I'm getting off topic here I got to class early one day before the other students. So this really handsome man, who I had a crush on, looks at me and says 'It's OK to be different'. I was stunned. I just stared at him. The last thing I wanted to be seen as was different, although I knew I was but I thought I had it well hidden I later viewed his comment as one of the kindest, most understanding things anyone had ever said to me. On one level, he was likely indicating that he, too, was different. Even if that wasn't the case, he was clearly letting me know that I was OK just being myself. He wasn't trying to change my behavior as my 7th grade teacher had done. I wish I knew where that teacher is now so I could thank him.

All of us are OK, and beautiful people, just the way we are, however we identify sexually, in gender expression and other ways of being our true selves. Our greatest gift to people around is to be authentic. Admittedly, this can sometimes be really hard to do.

-Danya

I want to add here some paraphrased comments from a member I very much admire just as many of you do. I'm referring to Jesus. I'm finding that the longer I know him, the wiser he's becoming Perhaps I'm just learning to listen better. The thing is, he's got a wealth of information on gender issues that extends far beyond his published papers. To top it all off, he genuinely cares for the people on the Archive.

He's mentioned to me that some gender clinics, or at least one in Berkeley, CA, are finding that many men who initially think they are male to female eventually settle into a eunuch identity and are really happy with this. Some have even gone all the way through sexual reassignment surgery to later decide the the eunuch gender id is really who they are. Part of his reason for telling me about these people is a warning to be clear on what I'm doing and I really appreciate that. I am listening. Going through all the stages of transitioning from male to female is time-consuming, expensive and involves a number of painful procedures that one could find unfufilling in the end.

Besides, there are all kinds of gender expressions. It's really quite an amazing thing, this gender stuff!

The process I'm going through now is an exploration of who I am, not a final commitment to anything. Yes, this can involve estrogen for a time. There's no rush for me and I can have fun on the adventure.

-Danya

From what I've learned there is a standards of care that insists you live female, be on HRT etc before they will consider surgery. I think that in many cases this has a good side because it does force a person to test drive things before expensive and irreversable surgery is done.

I did some surfing on the web and Jesus is correct

mrt (imported) wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:41 pm there are some people who are

happy in various stages of transition. Some quit at living Fem and on hormones. Some get an orchiectomy (Castration) and quit either on or off hormones. Quite a few that I've read about say its money issues and not a desire for the Eunuch life.

The goal to be male, female, eunuch or some where in between is perhapes not the main goal right now. In any trip I think you have to ponder why you want to get to a particular place and then break out the map and chart your course. The happyness you feel being free(er) from Testosterone is I think a clear indication that your already on the right direction. It might be worth talking to people further down the fem path to see if going beyond that is correct for you or not. Erica Ann perhapes? Or one of the other ladies that might be able to sync up with what your feeling or be able to point out that his is the wrong direction?

Anyway don't let it all make you crazy.

Danya (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:36 am The process I'm going through now is an exploration of who I am, not a final commitment to anything. Yes, this can involve estrogen for a time. There's no rush for me and I can have fun on the adventure.

-Danya

Rebecca Auge (http://rebeccaaugephd.blogspot.com/), the Berkeley psychologist, has pointed out many times that there's a vast gender space between "male" and "female." Many people can fit comfortably within this space. As you explore that space, it's best to relax and enjoy the journey.

MrT,

What I'm finding is, that with some spots on the gender continuum, I need to build a comfort level with a gender expression that has seemed incomprehensible in the past. This actually goes along with my initial reaction to the thought of becoming a eunuch.

When I first met a eunuch for dinner (our dear, beloved, on the path to sainthood Sister Kristoff), I was initially nervous. It was almost as if I were wondering if there existed an etiquette for speaking with eunuchs. How would I pick up on clues as to the right things to say? Would I blurt out something embarrassing? The fact is, we're all humans beings and want to be treated with respect and sensitivity.

Turned out we had a very nice 3-hour long conversation. Our personalities are very different, though, and I had an irrational concern that should I become a eunuch I would somehow morph into Sister II. Not a bad thing at all but just not me. I enjoy Kristoff's personality and humor very much and the contrast with my own makes it even more fun. Now, I'm totally comfortable being around eunuchs.

In a similar way, I need to go through additional mental adjustments to feel comfort with other gender expressions. I view all of this as a result of severe ignorance on my part. As I educate myself, what formerly seemed foreign and strange become more every day types of things.

There are the transgenderists, for instance, who (in men) view themselves as female and wish to modify their bodies, often through the use of hormones and surgery, to reflect a female presentation. They enjoy their male genitals, though, and do not seek out sexual reassignment surgery. For a naive guy like me, who until a few short months ago held to the binary, male or female only, gender view (I was awesomely ignorant), the concept of a transgenderist still seems a bit hard to grasp. Not nearly as difficult as it would have in October, when I started seriously posting on the Archive. On an intellectual level I now get the concept of the transgenderist. I believe that if I have the chance to meet one or more, and I hope I do, I will quickly develop the same sense of comfort I have with eunuchs.

Part of figuring out who I am is becoming comfortable with all the wonderful ways gender can be expressed.

-Danya

Is Eunuch the space between being Male or Female, or is eunuch one of the many things in the space between Male and Female.

Pauline

I might give a fairly good answer to your question, Pauline. It think it's best though, that one of the Archive heavy-hitters (e.g., Jesus or Kristoff) provide the details.

Oh, I'll give it a stab and hope others will chime in with corrections or a clear explanation. The term eunuch is essentially the physical description for a genetic male who has no testicles. Sometimes the term may be limited to someone without a penis or to those without both penis and testicles.

For those who consider being eunuch a gender identity, I would say this is one of the possibiities between what we'd view as traditional male and female.

It seems to me that even within a eunuch identity, there are different expressions. Such as use of testosterone, no hormone supplementation or the use of estrogen. I hope one of the folks who really knows this stuff will give a better explanation.

-Danya

MrT,

Danya (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:40 am What I'm finding is, that with some spots on the gender continuum, I need to build a comfort level with a gender expression that has seemed incomprehensible in the past. This actually goes along with my initial reaction to the thought of becoming a eunuch.

When I first met a eunuch for dinner (our dear, beloved, on the path to sainthood Sister Kristoff), I was initially nervous. It was almost as if I were wondering if there existed an etiquette for speaking with eunuchs. How would I pick up on clues as to the right things to say? Would I blurt out something embarrassing? The fact is, we're all humans beings and want to be treated with respect and sensitivity.

Turned out we had a very nice 3-hour long conversation. Our personalities are very different, though, and I had an irrational concern that should I become a eunuch I would somehow morph into Sister II. Not a bad thing at all but just not me. I enjoy Kristoff's personality and humor very much and the contrast with my own makes it even more fun. Now, I'm totally comfortable being around eunuchs.

In a similar way, I need to go through additional mental adjustments to feel comfort with other gender expressions. I view all of this as a result of severe ignorance on my part. As I educate myself, what formerly seemed foreign and strange become more every day types of things.

There are the transgenderists, for instance, who (in men) view themselves as female and wish to modify their bodies, often through the use of hormones and surgery, to reflect a female presentation. They enjoy their male genitals, though, and do not seek out sexual reassignment surgery. For a naive guy like me, who until a few short months ago held to the binary, male or female only, gender view (I was awesomely ignorant), the concept of a transgenderist still seems a bit hard to grasp. Not nearly as difficult as it would have in October, when I started seriously posting on the Archive. On an intellectual level I now get the concept of the transgenderist. I believe that if I have the chance to meet one or more, and I hope I do, I will quickly develop the same sense of comfort I have with eunuchs.

Part of figuring out who I am is becoming comfortable with all the wonderful ways gender can be expressed.

-Danya

I understand what your saying and I think it was very good that my first meeting with anyone who was a Eunuch was at the MOM meeting. The reason is that there was a cross section of people from one end of the spectrum to the other. Gay, straight, Transexual, even Transexual Lesbian types. I met Military types, Academic types, Motorcycle gang looking types (Sorry IE! ) Star Wars fan types, Comedian types, very old and very young and everything in between types. Crazy left wingers, Crazy right wingers, Non crazy and crazy types We had Canadians, English. There were Eunuchs who seek the Eunuch Calm and Eunuchs who "Mainline" Testosterone to be as male as they can and everything in between. Eunuchs with no HRT, Eunuchs on Testosterone, Eunuchs on Estrogen and some going back and forth. The truly cool thing was how all of these very different people were able to sit down and enjoy each others company. Humm... World leaders?? Maybe you need to get a minor medical procedure??? Or at least a swift kick there...

My point is that there is no rule book (At least mine is lost in the mail) for how to behave as a Eunuch. I'm sure there are those that would love to nail everyone who "is" into a box and limit and define us. Just as they tried to do with Lesbians, Gay men and Transexuals and yes straight white males (At least on TV) which is why its called the idiot box btw....

I enjoy being able to talk to people about this clearly private stuff in an adult and non sexual way but I think its also good that we are able to go about life and not have to be on a soapbox saying "look at me - I'm a Eunuch!!" When I was talking to a couple of surgeons I had some nice emails back and forth with a TS women who said that she was relieved to be done with her own surgery and just wanted to live life as a normal female. And that the TS was going off her signature because the "trans" part was completed.

I've often wondered about the missing members of EA (No pun intended) who seek this and find it then go away. Perhapes some of them are no longer TS and just want to live life without it defining them? I dunno.

Even though Pauline's question hasn't been fully answered yet, I've been reluctant to post anything here that might detract from MRT's brilliant post on the nature of the eunuch community. He's captured it perfectly.

For Pauline, though, despite what Freud wrote, a eunuch can most simply be defined as someone who was born with testicles, but for whom they are now non-existant or non-functional. (There are a few complexities that could be added, but they are incredibly rare.)

Eunuchs make up only a small part of that vast diversity of human sex and gender that exists beyond "male" and "female." And, eunuchs alone are incredibly diverse, as MRT so well describes.

Yes, I forgot to mention non-functional testicles even though I'm sitting here with a pair of them right now and consider myself to be chemically castrated and hence a eunuch.

MrT's response is indeed very good.

-Danya

JesusA wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:00 am Even though Pauline's question hasn't been fully answered yet, I've been reluctant to post anything here that might detract from MRT's brilliant post on the nature of the eunuch community. He's captured it perfectly.

For Pauline, though, despite what Freud wrote, a eunuch can most simply be defined as someone who was born with testicles, but for whom they are now non-existant or non-functional. (There are a few complexities that could be added, but they are incredibly rare.)

Eunuchs make up only a small part of that vast diversity of human sex and gender that exists beyond "male" and "female." And, eunuchs alone are incredibly diverse, as MRT so well describes.

Sir... I'm honored by your statement. Thank you!

Getting back to the 'Who Am I' title of this thread, I want to bring up a few things I've mentioned elsewhere and tell about two dreams I had last night.

I've already stated that I now view myself as very much more male to female than male to eunuch or even male to eunuch with heavy feminine characteristics. Damn, this stuff quickly becomes complex and mind-boggling. Perhaps I'm just too easily boggled

Jesus mentioned to Jemagirl and me, while I was visiting the Golden State, that the Navajo have something like (and Jesus will correct me if I get this number wrong ) 11 gender states that are clearly defined and accepted in their culture. Marriage, or the Navajo equivalent, is permitted between any of these two of these gender identities.

The more I learn about Jesus, the more clearly I understand the great depth of his knowledge on gender issues. He talks about gender fluidity over a lifetime, mentioning how only advanced gender theorists are discussing this.

I've got to say, until recently I've been having enough trouble figuring my birth brain, vs. genital, gender. Adding the idea of my gender fluctuating is disturbing but exciting, too. It seems that, at least for some, brain gender isn't entirely set at birth if it can fluctuate over a lifetime. Maybe there are only some of us with the ability to shift genders along a continuum, over time, with relative ease and lack of brain-body dissonance. Certainly I can conclude that, if I accept (for the sake of argument) the idea of gender fluidity as something at work in my life, what matters for me today is less my brain gender at birth than what that gender is now.

This brings me, in a round about way, to the 'who am I' right now, today, question. While I was in San Francisco over the last 5 days, I did something that is normally difficult. I allowed myself to experience my emotions about my gender largely free from analyzing what it all meant. I wasn't entirely successful at this but I'll blame that on my scientific training .

Admittedly, I was starting out at the point of considering myself MTF. This was a feeling 'experiment', though, and I had to start somewhere! I found that my feelings about being female were even stronger and more positive than before.

That brings me to the two dreams I had in the middle of last night, one of which I've mentioned on another thread. I don't normally remember having many dreams, so this was unusual. It's likely I wouldn't have remembered either one if I hadn't stirred soon after the dreams because I needed to use the bathroom. Or perhaps it's because I had started to stir that the dreams happened! I enjoy this kind of speculation so I hope some of you are able to bear with me

The first dream was of my birth and the doctor announcing 'It's a girl!'. This made me very happy.

The second seemed to occur more in the time I was stirring to get up and use the toilet. In it, I'm lying on my back on the bed and watch as the remaining vestige of my male persona leaves my body, never to return. Again, my reaction to this was happiness.

After returning to bed, I quickly fell back into what turned out to be a very restful night's sleep. That is unusual for me.

I'm not implying that these dreams, standing alone, definitively tell me who I am. They are certainly additional, and I think important, emotional confirmation of the feminine feelings I've been experiencing.

I don't have time to go into other things I noticed from letting my emotions run wild. By the time I got home tonight from California, the more female I was feeling.

It is entirely possible that this female persona could be happily incorporated into some gender identity that is not strictly at the female pole of the traditional and out-dated male-female binary. Let's just say I am open to that possibility. If I were a Navajo, although Jesus noted their attitudes are changing with modernization, this might be a non-issue. It's more difficult when you are a 21st century denizen of a culture that still insists that you are either male or female. The fact that my educational background is in hard-core science further complicates things. I am a product, through lots of education and experience, of the very society that seeks to trivialize gender identities by reducing them to two.

-Danya