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Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:34 am
by msgtron (imported)
Many of he stories posted, including mine, speak of young boys. Your web

site shows images of men and young boys. Is writing about this legal? Well,

am I exploting a mental image of a child for erotic pleasure or am a meerly

writing erotic literature?

Anybody out there a lawyer?

R.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:13 am
by kathie (imported)
Unfortunately, I have no answers for your question. I can only say that I am a bit confused, myself. The other day we were having a discussion about whether male homosexuals were pedophiles. I had always maintained that they were two separate issues, yet when you go over to the story section, many of the gay stories include young boys being deprived of their sex organs so that they could not enter puberty, but only service intact males. I guess then, that these erotic stories involving young boys could be called kiddie porn. I have a few male homosexual friends and I notice that they, who are in their 50's are going after young fellows in their twenties who drain them of their money. I keep telling them to go after men their own ages who are lonely and would appreciate a nice boyfriend, but they say they are not attracted to aging men, and that I don't understand. I guess that they are right. Can any of you gay men, or anyone in the know for that matter, straighten me out.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:32 am
by erikboy (imported)
Pederasty is cross-cultural phenomenon and I think that stories posted here about boys - it is just one form of it.

If it is legal or not I don't know. Depends on country of course.

There is an interesting article about Pederasty on Wikipedia with many more interesting links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

E.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:44 pm
by A-1 (imported)
kathie (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:13 am Unfortunately, I have no answers for your question. I can only say that I am a bit confused, myself. The other day we were having a discussion about whether male homosexuals were pedophiles. I had always maintained that they were two separate issues, yet when you go over to the story section, many of the gay stories include young boys being deprived of their sex organs so that they could not enter puberty, but only service intact males. I guess then, that these erotic stories involving young boys could be called kiddie porn. I have a few male homosexual friends and I notice that they, who are in their 50's are going after young fellows in their twenties who drain them of their money. I keep telling them to go after men their own ages who are lonely and would appreciate a nice boyfriend, but they say they are not attracted to aging men, and that I don't understand. I guess that they are right. Can any of you gay men, or anyone in the know for that matter, straighten me out.

Kathie,

The most difficult thing is to correctly interpret what thought processes are going through the human mind. If you call ANY literature "Kiddie Porn" the implications are such that children are being hurt by it. Nothing is further from the truth here at the E.A.. Most probably, what you are seeing are the feelings expressed by adults who were hurt as children or whose fixations regarding such issues go back into their childhood.

Your few male homosexual friends probably are attracted to young boys (not necessarily children, but from 18ish to 25 or 30) IF the truth were known, heterosexual men also have such an attraction to females of the same age. I need only mention the most recent revelations (excuse the word) that emminates from the Fundamental Latter Day Saints 'church' in Texas. Of course, that seems lower on the repugnancy list since it IS heterosexual. In reality, children are children and it is NOT.

IF you read the literature in the E.A. many of the stories involve males who are nutered by females. There is even one about frontier times when a male is castrated because he expresses a desire for a girl his own age who is to be wed to a 50-ish patriarch in a polygamous marrage.

Remember, you cannot be ARRESTED for thoughts. Otherwise, the prisons would be much fuller than they are today.

Also, note that NO CHILD IS ALLOWED in the Archive as a member or anywhere where they can be harmed. However, an inner child exists in each of us and we are that child and that child IS us. It NEVER leaves and it must still be protected as a child is protected if our collective psyches are to remain intact.

In addition, there IS a difference in society between those who THINK of heinous deeds and those who commit heinous deeds. Just as there is a difference between those who write stories about heinous deeds in a fictional format and those who try to actually LIVE out their so-called 'fantasies', we CANNOT lump the thinkers and the doers into one catagory, even though the thought usually preceeds the deed. Sometimes, the thought can FOLLOW the deed such as that which happens in Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

I know of an E.A. member who lives every day contending with the serial molestation memories from his childhood. I am NOT a Psychologist nor a Psychiatrist. However, even I can see that the writing of these stories that bothers you is a catharsis for some and the only way that they remain sane. It is the only way for them to exorcise MULTIPLE demons from their memories of childhood abuses that MAINSTREAM society denies ever happened. In addition, insanity is measured by ACTIONS, not thoughts.

Specific threats against an actual person with a name and identity IS a problem, because ideations are being made. However, fictional people are constructs, not real and nobody is being threatened, you see? Think of Silence of the Lambs. The people are fictional. IF a real person was being written about, then we have a problem that must be dealt with. Some ARE real stories, but they are autobiographies that are fictionalized.

As you read and are more and more disgusted with the E.A. Archives remember this. Man's inhumanity to man is without limit. If you are a Christian the sacrifice of Jesus Christ only covers this IF the victim first forgives the offender. If the one who wronged you IS dead, that one can no longer hurt you or anyone else. However, the fact that you have psychic scars cannot be denied nor dealt with easily and you no longer have an outlet to vent rage upon. That rage must NOT be allowed to be turned outward nor inward or violence will be visited upon an innocent. The only way to surgically revise a scar is to cut it out and dispose of it. Then the healing WITHOUT the infectious scar can begin.

Whatever you do, please do what you can to lessen the evil that humanity does to itself. Ignoring it or supressing it DOES NOT MAKE IT GO AWAY, it only allows it to fester and to breed corruption that infects the uninfected. Sometimes evil must be forgiven, but sometimes mankind is not capable of that level of forgivness. Sometimes evil must be extracted and placed in an isolated place where it can do no harm and it is isolated in a sterile environment.

Think of the E.A. Archive as a JAR OF SCARS soaking in PUS and things start making a lot more sense.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:31 pm
by Slammr (imported)
msgtron (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:34 am Many of he stories posted, including mine, speak of young boys. Your web

site shows images of men and young boys. Is writing about this legal? Well,

am I exploting a mental image of a child for erotic pleasure or am a meerly

writing erotic literature?

Anybody out there a lawyer?

R.

It depends on the country you're from. If you live in the USA, the Bill of Rights, Freedom of Speech, does protect you. As long as you don't have the kid you're writing about tied up in your basement, what you're writing is not illegal. You probably wouldn't want your family or employer to know what you're writing, though. They might not understand that it's all fantasy.

Why would someone write erotic, castration, stories about kids?

Writing is therapeutic. It's a way to resolve childhood issues. Often, once put down on paper, certain things no longer have control over one. Also, many here have wished since they can remember that they were castrated, and many wish they were castrated as children. Writing about that is - in some ways - a means to fulfill that wish.

Why, then, write about kids having sex?

Some people were abused as children, and writing about it is a way to work through it. When I write about a kid, I put myself in that kid's place. I'm not writing about what I'd like to do to a kid, I'm exploring what I would feel like, were I in his position.

Going through puberty is possibly one of the most intensely emotional periods of one's life. Why wouldn't one want to explore that period and write about it?

Sometimes, an erotic story about a teenage boy is just fun. Hollywood has even made several of them. It doesn't mean that the author intends to run out to find a boy to have sex with.

18 is an arbitrary age determined by society that has little to do with sexuality. Does anyone think kids are waiting until 18 to have sex? I doubt that any kids were influenced to have sex or to be castrated by any stories posted on the Archive.

Look around the forum. There are pages and pages discussing this subject. Perhaps someone will post a link to one of the threads.

I'm a Freedom of Speech freak. Although I'm very much against Child Porn, pictures of a REAL child being abused, I'm against all restrictions on all other forms of expression. I thing one should be able to think, write, or post on the Internet ANYTHING that didn't require someone being harmed to produce. There should be no restrictions WHATSOEVER on the writen word, on drawings, or on computer generated graphics.

I'm always pushing the limits, so by all means, stay away from any website I run, althouh, y
kathie (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:13 am ou won't find stories or pictures of chidren on them.

Unfortunately, I have no answers for your question. I can only say that I am a bit confused, myself. The other day we were having a discussion about whether male homosexuals were pedophiles. I had always maintained that they were two separate issues, yet when you go over to the story section, many of the gay stories include young boys being deprived of their sex organs so that they could not enter puberty, but only service intact males. I guess then, that these erotic stories involving young boys could be called kiddie porn. I have a few male homosexual friends and I notice that they, who are in their 50's are going after young fellows in their twenties who drain them of their money. I keep telling them to go after men their own ages who are lonely and would appreciate a nice boyfriend, but they say they are not attracted to aging men, and that I don't understand. I guess that they are right. Can any of you gay men, or
anyone in the know for that matter, straighten me out.

There are homosexuals that are pedophiles and there are heterosexuals that are pedophiles, probably in equal percentages. Haven't we had ample evidence that older heterosexuals like younger women, too? Just read the newspapers. Far more reports of older men chasing younger women make the news than does reports of older men chasing younger men, and plenty of men in their 50s are being drained of their money by young ladies in their 20s.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:00 pm
by StefanIsMe (imported)
My answer to this question is always to refer the person to mainstream and not-so-mainstream published media. Guy Madden films (out of Manitoba, Canada) (he did one about slave-boys, 10-12, on a sex farm one time); Anne Rice, who wrote of underage gay vampires; The Heart is Deceitful above all things; etc etc. Talking of movies, I've seen even more blatant stuff in the foreign-films bin.

Canada tried to jail one guy, I forget his name.. he wrote some scathingly sexual stuff online, it was pure kiddy-porn, extreme stuff from the edited portions published. They did arrest him etc etc but freed him after a time, written off as a failed exersize. However, as stated above, I've never felt that anything I've read on the E.A. is as gratuitous as this particular author was.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:52 pm
by stewie69 (imported)
Fiction is fiction. As long as it isn't based on some real life event, what's the problem? There's a wide variety of disturbing subjects in this world than many folks enjoy in literature and film. As long as they're enjoyed as a concept and not an actual act, there's no harm. What if everyone who enjoyed slasher flicks became serial killers?...

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:39 pm
by IbPervert (imported)
At the moment there is no crime for writing ones thought down. Although, other people could be alarmed if found, and there is the potential for legal officials to step in. A good example is a written journal. A written journal is considered private, but in the court of law can be used against you with or with out your consent and a court order....at least in the United States.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:05 pm
by BossTamsin (imported)
Ok. A question has been asked, and will be answered.

The question of legality largely depends on what country you live in. Unfortunately there exist a number of countries which have 'child pornography' laws so sweeping that even fictional stories about imaginary children are enough to convict you as a pedophile. I cannot say whether or not any of the readers are living in such a country, for that answer you will have to consult an attorney in your jurisdiction.

I am not a legal expert, I'm not even a legal amateur, but to the best of my knowledge such writings are covered under 'freedom of speech' within the United States. At least for the moment. I somehow suspect that this will eventually change. If an elected official gets riled up enough to propose a bill banning such activity, I would fully expect it to pass. "Freedom of speech" is one thing, but I doubt any member of government would be willing to go on record as being FOR child pornography, which is how the press would see it. Even if it is a first amendment issue, that won't matter. The headlines screaming that "Senator X supports kiddie porn" would be enough to sink them for life. In today's world, you don't even have to be convicted. All the police have to do is lay charges, and your life is over. The courts could throw the case out, nobody would care. Matlock himself could prove you innocent, it wouldn't matter.

My personal opinion is that free speech means just that. Someone can do the most horrible, awful, stomach-turning things to an imaginary being, but that does not mean in any way shape or form that they would ever do anything of the sort to a real person. If you are willing to try, convict, and sentence a person based on a work of fiction then everyone who has ever played Quake, World of Warcraft, Max Payne, any FPS game, 90% of any games on the market - all of them should immediately stand trial for first degree murder. If writing fiction about children makes you a pedophile, then clearly playing any violent game makes you a murderer.

My opinion, of course, is just that. It's not legal advice. The official EA position is that we accept these kind of stories. We always have, and if I can help it, we always will. Thoughtcrime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime) should never be allowed to exist. That being said, there are times I wish the EA had the budget to consult lawyers in both the US and Canada regarding these issues, to determine what kind of liability the Archive (and management) may have regarding these stories.

Issues like these are what keeps me awake at night.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:01 pm
by FianceeUvBigGuy (imported)
Good Morning, all.

Yoli at the keyboard (Not a Steinway.)

I must confess that this issue has troubled me since my initial foray into the EA.

Not only do I share the concerns re the legal ramifications of some of the stories and links, but I'm curious (Note that I did NOT say "condemnatory") as to the motivations of those create or seek stories involving minors.

I've made myself try to read some of the stories of the nature in question, so well as checking out related links. Suffice it to say that I was saddened and, yes, even repelled by some of it.

PLEASE! Note that I am NOT singling anyone out, NOR am I intentionally insulting anyone. It's just that I think the safety and innocence of children should be "Job One" in all aspects of life.

I don't want any, not one, of my "family" here to find themselves in legal troubles and I sometimes wonder when the hammer will fall.

If, by creating or reading tales of that nature, a person is able to sublimate, rather than act on, some dark impulse then perhaps it's better that they have that outlet. Still, I wonder if some "passer by", might stumble over these things and thereby a dreadful seed be planted.

We do, often, have casual visitors to the EA and we cannot be confident that they all know where the boundaries of behavior are or that they will respect them.

Love to all,

Yoli

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:03 pm
by kathie (imported)
Thank you for this thought provoking discussion. I really caught a good glimpse of myself in my immediate reaction to your replies. For instance Slammr wrote, "
Slammr (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:31 pm Just read the newspapers. Far more reports of older men chasing younger women make the news than does reports of older men chasing younger men, and plenty of men in their 50s are being drained of their money by young ladies in their 20s,
" and A-1 wrote, "
A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:44 pm Your few male homosexual friends probably are attracted to young boys (not necessarily children, but from 18ish to 25 or 30) IF the truth were known, heterosexual men also have such an attraction to females of the same age. ", and, "IF you read the literature in the E.A. many of the stories involve males who are nutered by females.
"

When I read this, I said to myself at once, "Oh, Yeah, that's true." then I immediately understood what was meant. It is interesting that I forgot about the males being neutered by females.

At first I wondered where A-1 got the idea that I was disgusted with the gay writers in the Archive, but in noting my reactions to the replies, I have to admit that I'm not treating the straight men and the gay men equally, or at least not with the same amount of understanding.

Many good insights came to light about the functions of writing the stories. there is food for thought here.
A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:44 pm As you read and are more and more disgusted with the E.A. Archives remember this. Man's inhumanity to man is without limit.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:26 pm
by mrt (imported)
Speaking as a parent I'm against it. I think it serves no purpose other then evil.

BTW "it" being stories about Kids in sexual or forced into castration porn.

I'm not a prude. I've read some of the more mainstream stuff but the kids stuff just chills the shit out of me.

A-1 had some interesting points but I don't think any of this is worth getting one weak minded sex idiot "into" this and hurting one kid.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:42 am
by IbPervert (imported)
No matter what country you live in...How would feel you if the local authorities decide to look into your past, and then it became public? What your doing could be perfectly legal but in the eyes of your local authorities, the press, and the public could see it in a completely different light.

A Good example....

You write some stories that contain children and post them to the Archive. One day your in a restroom a little boy can not get his pants up, so you become a good person and help the kid out. eWhile helping the child pull his pants up and close his zipper someone else walks in, and sees you bent over with you hands around the child groin area! This person screams and runs for help, and soon the police are involved and your in handcuffs and this time its not fun type of handcuffs! :D The police obtain search warrants and go ransack your house. During the course of there investigation they search your computer and obtain your records from your internet provider and the search engines you use. Soon they find out you come to the archive and order them to hand over your records in which they find your stories that happened to have children involved. This is more evidence against you! They then start questioning the child, and soon the boy is telling them what they want to hear. That is more evidence against you! In some areas of the world those two pieces of evidence would be enough to convict you.

Now I realize the above is a very hypothetical situation, but it is possible. So is it legally wrong (making a distinct line in the sand between legally and morally) to write stories about youth? It Depends on your country and the current attitudes of that nation!

Is there potential for getting into trouble over writing suggestive stories about minors or writing any questionable stories? Yes!

People still have an attitude that everything on the net is temporary, and it is gone at the drop of a hat! Well that is the furthest thing from the truth! In actuality the Internet has a very long memory of activity, and if someone wants to find it they most likely can.

How long is this internet memory?

That depends on how long your ISP keeps the data it collects on your surfing habits and email received.

It also depends on which search engine you use. If you have an account with Yahell, Google and MSN then they have your legal name and its easy to track your activities. If you do not have an account with a search engine then they track it by your IP number.

( Note- For those who do not know what an IP number is...every computer connected to the web is assigned an IP number. Some are temporary like dialup, and others are more permanent like DSL or cable modems, and when was the last time you turned off your dsl or cable mode box and turned it back on to reset your IP address. Also, when you type a domain name in that is quickly compared with list of other names and then they use the IP number next to that name)

The search engines typically keep data for at least 12 to 18 months at a minimum it could be longer! Not only do they get to use it for what ever they want, but can turn it over to police if they ask and/or serve the right warrants.

Plus, the legal officials can also search through your computer as well and thanks to the history file see where you have been and when. Then go look through all your files and temp files!

So I think the real question should be....

The potential future problems with writing minor related stories something you wish to deal with? Not trying to down grade the legality of stories involving minors, but there are other aspects that need to be addressed as well.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:43 am
by erikboy (imported)
Long time ago there was an interesting case in Canada. Two clearly underage boys took naked pictures of each other and sold them. Police was soon there, but there was noone to blame on taking advantage of youth. I don't know how this case ended.

This type of cases are rather rare I think but what if I write a story that is partly true, and that is based on my own experience when I was young? should I prove it somehow?

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:02 am
by ramses (imported)
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v.

FREE SPEECH COALITION et al.

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-795.ZS.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. 00—795. Argued October 30, 2001-Decided April 16, 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA) expands the federal prohibition on child pornography to include not only pornographic images made using actual children, 18 U.S.C. § 2256(8)(A), but also "any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture" that "is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct," §2256(8)(B), and any sexually explicit image that is "advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression" it depicts "a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct," §2256(8)(D). Thus, §2256(8)(B) bans a range of sexually explicit images, sometimes called "virtual child pornography," that appear to depict minors but were produced by means other than using real children, such as through the use of youthful-looking adults or computer-imaging technology. Section 2256(8)(D) is aimed at preventing the production or distribution of pornographic material pandered as child pornography. Fearing that the CPPA threatened their activities, respondents, an adult-entertainment trade association and others, filed this suit alleging that the "appears to be" and "conveys the impression" provisions are overbroad and vague, chilling production of works protected by the First Amendment. The District Court disagreed and granted the Government summary judgment, but the Ninth Circuit reversed. Generally, pornography can be banned only if it is obscene under Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, but pornography depicting actual children can be proscribed whether or not the images are obscene because of the State's interest in protecting the children exploited by the production process, New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 758, and in prosecuting those who promote such sexual exploitation, id., at 761. The Ninth Circuit held the CPPA invalid on its face, finding it to be substantially overbroad because it bans materials that are neither obscene under Miller nor produced by the exploitation of real children as in Ferber.

Held: The prohibitions of §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are overbroad and unconstitutional. Pp. 6—21.

(a) Section 2256(8)(B) covers materials beyond the categories recognized in Ferber and Miller, and the reasons the Government offers in support of limiting the freedom of speech have no justification in this Court's precedents or First Amendment law. Pp. 6—19.

(1) The CPPA is inconsistent with Miller. It extends to images that are not obscene under the Miller standard, which requires the Government to prove that the work in question, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value, 413 U.S., at 24. Materials need not appeal to the prurient interest under the CPPA, which proscribes any depiction of sexually explicit activity, no matter how it is presented. It is not necessary, moreover, that the image be patently offensive. Pictures of what appear to be 17-year-olds engaging in sexually explicit activity do not in every case contravene community standards. The CPPA also prohibits speech having serious redeeming value, proscribing the visual depiction of an idea-that of teenagers engaging in sexual activity-that is a fact of modern society and has been a theme in art and literature for centuries. A number of acclaimed movies, filmed without any child actors, explore themes within the wide sweep of the statute's prohibitions. If those movies contain a single graphic depiction of sexual activity within the statutory definition, their possessor would be subject to severe punishment without inquiry into the literary value of the work. This is inconsistent with an essential First Amendment rule: A work's artistic merit does not depend on the presence of a single explicit scene. See, e.g., Book Named "John Cleland's Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure" v. Attorney General of Mass., 383 U.S. 413, 419. Under Miller, redeeming value is judged by considering the work as a whole. Where the scene is part of the narrative, the work itself does not for this reason become obscene, even though the scene in isolation might be offensive. See Kois v. Wisconsin, 408 U.S. 229, 231 (per curiam). The CPPA cannot be read to prohibit obscenity, because it lacks the required link between its prohibitions and the affront to community standards prohibited by the obscenity definition. Pp. 6—11.

(2) The CPPA finds no support in Ferber. The Court rejects the Government's argument that speech prohibited by the CPPA is virtually indistinguishable from material that may be banned under Ferber. That case upheld a prohibition on the distribution and sale of child pornography, as well as its production, because these acts were "intrinsically related" to the sexual abuse of children in two ways. 458 U.S., at 759. First, as a permanent record of a child's abuse, the continued circulation itself would harm the child who had participated. See id., at 759, and n. 10. Second, because the traffic in child pornography was an economic motive for its production, the State had an interest in closing the distribution network. Id., at 760. Under either rationale, the speech had what the Court in effect held was a proximate link to the crime from which it came. In contrast to the speech in Ferber, speech that is itself the record of sexual abuse, the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not "intrinsically related" to the sexual abuse of children. While the Government asserts that the images can lead to actual instances of child abuse, the causal link is contingent and indirect. The harm does not necessarily follow from the speech, but depends upon some unquantified potential for subsequent criminal acts. The Government's argument that these indirect harms are sufficient because, as Ferber acknowledged, child pornography rarely can be valuable speech, see id., at 762, suffers from two flaws. First, Ferber's judgment about child pornography was based upon how it was made, not on what it communicated. The case reaffirmed that where the speech is neither obscene nor the product of sexual abuse, it does not fall outside the First Amendment's protection. See id., at 764—765. Second, Ferber did not hold that child pornography is by definition without value. It recognized some works in this category might have significant value, see id., at 761, but relied on virtual images-the very images prohibited by the CPPA-as an alternative and permissible means of expression, id., at 763. Because Ferber relied on the distinction between actual and virtual child pornography as supporting its holding, it provides no support for a statute that eliminates the distinction and makes the alternative mode criminal as well. Pp. 11—13.

(3) The Court rejects other arguments offered by the Government to justify the CPPA's prohibitions. The contention that the CPPA is necessary because pedophiles may use virtual child pornography to seduce children runs afoul of the principle that speech within the rights of adults to hear may not be silenced completely in an attempt to shield children from it. See, e.g., Sable Communications of Cal., Inc. v. FCC, 492 U.S. 115, 130—131. That the evil in question depends upon the actor's unlawful conduct, defined as criminal quite apart from any link to the speech in question, establishes that the speech ban is not narrowly drawn. The argument that virtual child pornography whets pedophiles' appetites and encourages them to engage in illegal conduct is unavailing because the mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 566, absent some showing of a direct connection between the speech and imminent illegal conduct, see, e.g., Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (per curiam). The argument that eliminating the market for pornography produced using real children necessitates a prohibition on virtual images as well is somewhat implausible because few pornographers would risk prosecution for abusing real children if fictional, computerized images would suffice. Moreover, even if the market deterrence theory were persuasive, the argument cannot justify the CPPA because, here, there is no underlying crime at all. Finally, the First Amendment is turned upside down by the argument that, because it is difficult to distinguish between images made using real children and those produced by computer imaging, both kinds of images must be prohibited. The overbreadth doctrine prohibits the Government from banning unprotected speech if a substantial amount of protected speech is prohibited or chilled in the process. See Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 612. The Government's rejoinder that the CPPA should be read not as a prohibition on speech but as a measure shifting the burden to the accused to prove the speech is lawful raises serious constitutional difficulties. The Government misplaces its reliance on §2252A(c), which creates an affirmative defense allowing a defendant to avoid conviction for nonpossession offenses by showing that the materials were produced using only adults and were not otherwise distributed in a manner conveying the impression that they depicted real children. Even if an affirmative defense can save a statute from First Amendment challenge, here the defense is insufficient because it does not apply to possession or to images created by computer imaging, even where the defendant could demonstrate no children were harmed in producing the images. Thus, the defense leaves unprotected a substantial amount of speech not tied to the Government's interest in distinguishing images produced using real children from virtual ones. Pp. 13—19.

(b) Section 2256(8)(D) is also substantially overbroad. The Court disagrees with the Government's view that the only difference between that provision and §2256(8)(B)'s "appears to be" provision is that §2256(8)(D) requires the jury to assess the material at issue in light of the manner in which it is promoted, but that the determination would still depend principally upon the prohibited work's content. The "conveys the impression" provision requires little judgment about the image's content; the work must be sexually explicit, but otherwise the content is irrelevant. Even if a film contains no sexually explicit scenes involving minors, it could be treated as child pornography if the title and trailers convey the impression that such scenes will be found in the movie. The determination turns on how the speech is presented, not on what is depicted. The Government's other arguments in support of the CPPA do not bear on §2256(8)(D). The materials, for instance, are not likely to be confused for child pornography in a criminal trial. Pandering may be relevant, as an evidentiary matter, to the question whether particular materials are obscene. See Ginzburg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463, 474. Where a defendant engages in the "commercial exploitation" of erotica solely for the sake of prurient appeal, id., at 466, the context created may be relevant to evaluating whether the materials are obscene. Section 2256(8)(D), however, prohibits a substantial amount of speech that falls outside Ginzburg's rationale. Proscribed material is tainted and unlawful in the hands of all who receive it, though they bear no responsibility for how it was marketed, sold, or described. The statute, furthermore, does not require that the context be part of an effort at "commercial exploitation." Thus, the CPPA does more than prohibit pandering. It bans possession of material pandered as child pornography by someone earlier in the distribution chain, as well as a sexually explicit film that contains no youthful actors but has been packaged to suggest a prohibited movie. Possession is a crime even when the possessor knows the movie was mislabeled. The First Amendment requires a more precise restriction. Pp. 19—20.

(c) In light of the foregoing, respondents' contention that §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are void for vagueness need not be addressed. P. 21.

198 F.3d 1083, affirmed.

Kennedy, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined. Thomas, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment. O'Connor, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and Scalia, J., joined as to Part II. Rehnquist, C. J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Scalia, J., joined except for the paragraph discussing legislative history.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:44 pm
by Slammr (imported)
IbPervert (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:42 am A Good example....

You write some stories that contain children and post them to the Archive. One day your in a restroom a little boy can not get his pants up, so you become a good person and help the kid out. eWhile helping the child pull his pants up and close his zipper someone else walks in, and sees you bent over with you hands around the child groin area! This person screams and runs for help, and soon the police are involved and your in handcuffs and this time its not fun type of handcuffs!

If one is stupid enough - in this day and age - to help a kid pull up his zipper, one probably deserves to go to jail for stupidity.

Certainly, it takes only an accusation to ruin a person not a conviction. Is it worthwhile to take the chance in order to write a story for the Archive for which an author might receive one email? That's a different question.

I think, given the current climate of censorship on the Internet, were the EA not on a server being operated by BME, it might have difficulty finding a web-host because of the stories about children in the archive.

I recently had my websites shut down because of images posted on one of them; and none of them were of minors. Newspapers and politicians in England are putting pressure on credit card processors and on web host to shut down sites that portray violent images; yet you can see much worse at your local theater.

I would also think the stories would pose more of a problem in Canada than they would in the USA. Here, they are still protected by the Constitution.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:15 am
by IbPervert (imported)
Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:44 pm If one is stupid enough - in this day and age - to help a kid pull up his zipper, one probably deserves to go to jail for stupidity.

I do agree about the stupidity factor, and only used it as one example. What if your out and about running errands, and your accused of rape or robbery? With out receipts or some type of proof your screwed.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 am
by kristoff
IbPervert (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:15 am I do agree about the stupidity factor, and only used it as one example. What if your out and about running errands, and your accused of rape or robbery? With out receipts or some type of proof your screwed.

That is carrying paranoia to the absurd I would expect

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:19 am
by strassenbahn (imported)
The above are all interesting, but I feel donot specifically address the key question of a potential EA fiction writer namely

-- Is WRITTEN fiction with no images in itself subject to laws against child pornography (laws I strongly support, by the way when it is a question of images.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:44 am
by kristoff
strassenbahn (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:19 am The above are all interesting, but I feel donot specifically address the key question of a potential EA fiction writer namely

-- Is WRITTEN fiction with no images in itself subject to laws against child pornography (laws I strongly support, by the way when it is a question of images.

Read the above Supreme Court opinion and you will have a pretty fair answer, notably in the USA. Basically, a lot of hot air is blowing for the greatest measure. Further I DONT support most of the laws and attempted laws as the right wing have proposed or enacted (most of which have been struck down). I DONT support the hysteria that has been created over the whole issue. I DO support protecting kids. But I also believe in protecting adults and one another. This hysteria reminds of nothing less than McCathyism

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:11 am
by IbPervert (imported)
kristoff wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 am That is carrying paranoia to the absurd I would expect

I do admit that it is just a bit paranoid, but it is an example of one possibility that could happen.

Let me put it another way...if one of your stories were to become public knowledge amongst your immediate family how would feel and react?

What about your friends, work associates, the local media?

I had a person that was spending a few months living in this house somehow sneaked into my room, and found gay porn on my computer. I got in trouble for having that stuff in the house! Yes everyone in the house knows I am gay, but they do not understand why i like that stuff. They did question what he was doing in my room, but the damage was done.

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:49 am
by kennath7 (imported)
Paranoid or not in this day in age you use good judgment you have to be able to think ahead of the different possibilities that may or may not happen as a result of the choice you make THE MERAINDA RIGHTS any thing you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:48 pm
by YankeeClipper (imported)
ramses (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:02 am SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v.

FREE SPEECH COALITION et al.

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-795.ZS.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. 00—795. Argued October 30, 2001-Decided April 16, 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA) expands the federal prohibition on child pornography to include not only pornographic images made using actual children, 18 U.S.C. § 2256(8)(A), but also "any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture" that "is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct," §2256(8)(B), and any sexually explicit image that is "advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression" it depicts "a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct," §2256(8)(D). Thus, §2256(8)(B) bans a range of sexually explicit images, sometimes called "virtual child pornography," that appear to depict minors but were produced by means other than using real children, such as through the use of youthful-looking adults or computer-imaging technology. Section 2256(8)(D) is aimed at preventing the production or distribution of pornographic material pandered as child pornography. Fearing that the CPPA threatened their activities, respondents, an adult-entertainment trade association and others, filed this suit alleging that the "appears to be" and "conveys the impression" provisions are overbroad and vague, chilling production of works protected by the First Amendment. The District Court disagreed and granted the Government summary judgment, but the Ninth Circuit reversed. Generally, pornography can be banned only if it is obscene under Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, but pornography depicting actual children can be proscribed whether or not the images are obscene because of the State's interest in protecting the children exploited by the production process, New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 758, and in prosecuting those who promote such sexual exploitation, id., at 761. The Ninth Circuit held the CPPA invalid on its face, finding it to be substantially overbroad because it bans materials that are neither obscene under Miller nor produced by the exploitation of real children as in Ferber.

Held: The prohibitions of §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are overbroad and unconstitutional. Pp. 6—21.

(a) Section 2256(8)(B) covers materials beyond the categories recognized in Ferber and Miller, and the reasons the Government offers in support of limiting the freedom of speech have no justification in this Court's precedents or First Amendment law. Pp. 6—19.

(1) The CPPA is inconsistent with Miller. It extends to images that are not obscene under the Miller standard, which requires the Government to prove that the work in question, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value, 413 U.S., at 24. Materials need not appeal to the prurient interest under the CPPA, which proscribes any depiction of sexually explicit activity, no matter how it is presented. It is not necessary, moreover, that the image be patently offensive. Pictures of what appear to be 17-year-olds engaging in sexually explicit activity do not in every case contravene community standards. The CPPA also prohibits speech having serious redeeming value, proscribing the visual depiction of an idea-that of teenagers engaging in sexual activity-that is a fact of modern society and has been a theme in art and literature for centuries. A number of acclaimed movies, filmed without any child actors, explore themes within the wide sweep of the statute's prohibitions. If those movies contain a single graphic depiction of sexual activity within the statutory definition, their possessor would be subject to severe punishment without inquiry into the literary value of the work. This is inconsistent with an essential First Amendment rule: A work's artistic merit does not depend on the presence of a single explicit scene. See, e.g., Book Named "John Cleland's Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure" v. Attorney General of Mass., 383 U.S. 413, 419. Under Miller, redeeming value is judged by considering the work as a whole. Where the scene is part of the narrative, the work itself does not for this reason become obscene, even though the scene in isolation might be offensive. See Kois v. Wisconsin, 408 U.S. 229, 231 (per curiam). The CPPA cannot be read to prohibit obscenity, because it lacks the required link between its prohibitions and the affront to community standards prohibited by the obscenity definition. Pp. 6—11.

(2) The CPPA finds no support in Ferber. The Court rejects the Government's argument that speech prohibited by the CPPA is virtually indistinguishable from material that may be banned under Ferber. That case upheld a prohibition on the distribution and sale of child pornography, as well as its production, because these acts were "intrinsically related" to the sexual abuse of children in two ways. 458 U.S., at 759. First, as a permanent record of a child's abuse, the continued circulation itself would harm the child who had participated. See id., at 759, and n. 10. Second, because the traffic in child pornography was an economic motive for its production, the State had an interest in closing the distribution network. Id., at 760. Under either rationale, the speech had what the Court in effect held was a proximate link to the crime from which it came. In contrast to the speech in Ferber, speech that is itself the record of sexual abuse, the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not "intrinsically related" to the sexual abuse of children. While the Government asserts that the images can lead to actual instances of child abuse, the causal link is contingent and indirect. The harm does not necessarily follow from the speech, but depends upon some unquantified potential for subsequent criminal acts. The Government's argument that these indirect harms are sufficient because, as Ferber acknowledged, child pornography rarely can be valuable speech, see id., at 762, suffers from two flaws. First, Ferber's judgment about child pornography was based upon how it was made, not on what it communicated. The case reaffirmed that where the speech is neither obscene nor the product of sexual abuse, it does not fall outside the First Amendment's protection. See id., at 764—765. Second, Ferber did not hold that child pornography is by definition without value. It recognized some works in this category might have significant value, see id., at 761, but relied on virtual images-the very images prohibited by the CPPA-as an alternative and permissible means of expression, id., at 763. Because Ferber relied on the distinction between actual and virtual child pornography as supporting its holding, it provides no support for a statute that eliminates the distinction and makes the alternative mode criminal as well. Pp. 11—13.

(3) The Court rejects other arguments offered by the Government to justify the CPPA's prohibitions. The contention that the CPPA is necessary because pedophiles may use virtual child pornography to seduce children runs afoul of the principle that speech within the rights of adults to hear may not be silenced completely in an attempt to shield children from it. See, e.g., Sable Communications of Cal., Inc. v. FCC, 492 U.S. 115, 130—131. That the evil in question depends upon the actor's unlawful conduct, defined as criminal quite apart from any link to the speech in question, establishes that the speech ban is not narrowly drawn. The argument that virtual child pornography whets pedophiles' appetites and encourages them to engage in illegal conduct is unavailing because the mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 566, absent some showing of a direct connection between the speech and imminent illegal conduct, see, e.g., Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (per curiam). The argument that eliminating the market for pornography produced using real children necessitates a prohibition on virtual images as well is somewhat implausible because few pornographers would risk prosecution for abusing real children if fictional, computerized images would suffice. Moreover, even if the market deterrence theory were persuasive, the argument cannot justify the CPPA because, here, there is no underlying crime at all. Finally, the First Amendment is turned upside down by the argument that, because it is difficult to distinguish between images made using real children and those produced by computer imaging, both kinds of images must be prohibited. The overbreadth doctrine prohibits the Government from banning unprotected speech if a substantial amount of protected speech is prohibited or chilled in the process. See Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 612. The Government's rejoinder that the CPPA should be read not as a prohibition on speech but as a measure shifting the burden to the accused to prove the speech is lawful raises serious constitutional difficulties. The Government misplaces its reliance on §2252A(c), which creates an affirmative defense allowing a defendant to avoid conviction for nonpossession offenses by showing that the materials were produced using only adults and were not otherwise distributed in a manner conveying the impression that they depicted real children. Even if an affirmative defense can save a statute from First Amendment challenge, here the defense is insufficient because it does not apply to possession or to images created by computer imaging, even where the defendant could demonstrate no children were harmed in producing the images. Thus, the defense leaves unprotected a substantial amount of speech not tied to the Government's interest in distinguishing images produced using real children from virtual ones. Pp. 13—19.

(b) Section 2256(8)(D) is also substantially overbroad. The Court disagrees with the Government's view that the only difference between that provision and §2256(8)(B)'s "appears to be" provision is that §2256(8)(D) requires the jury to assess the material at issue in light of the manner in which it is promoted, but that the determination would still depend principally upon the prohibited work's content. The "conveys the impression" provision requires little judgment about the image's content; the work must be sexually explicit, but otherwise the content is irrelevant. Even if a film contains no sexually explicit scenes involving minors, it could be treated as child pornography if the title and trailers convey the impression that such scenes will be found in the movie. The determination turns on how the speech is presented, not on what is depicted. The Government's other arguments in support of the CPPA do not bear on §2256(8)(D). The materials, for instance, are not likely to be confused for child pornography in a criminal trial. Pandering may be relevant, as an evidentiary matter, to the question whether particular materials are obscene. See Ginzburg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463, 474. Where a defendant engages in the "commercial exploitation" of erotica solely for the sake of prurient appeal, id., at 466, the context created may be relevant to evaluating whether the materials are obscene. Section 2256(8)(D), however, prohibits a substantial amount of speech that falls outside Ginzburg's rationale. Proscribed material is tainted and unlawful in the hands of all who receive it, though they bear no responsibility for how it was marketed, sold, or described. The statute, furthermore, does not require that the context be part of an effort at "commercial exploitation." Thus, the CPPA does more than prohibit pandering. It bans possession of material pandered as child pornography by someone earlier in the distribution chain, as well as a sexually explicit film that contains no youthful actors but has been packaged to suggest a prohibited movie. Possession is a crime even when the possessor knows the movie was mislabeled. The First Amendment requires a more precise restriction. Pp. 19—20.

(c) In light of the foregoing, respondents' contention that §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are void for vagueness need not be addressed. P. 21.

198 F.3d 1083, affirmed.

Kennedy, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined. Thomas, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment. O'Connor, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and Scalia, J., joined as to Part II. Rehnquist, C. J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Scalia, J., joined except for the paragraph discussing legislative history.

As noted in the ruling above: Stories are not "Kiddy porn" with the laws of the US as such is considered material covered under the 1st Amendment. Any and all parts in the ruling only apply to persons residing in the US and should not be construe to be appropriate to countries outside the US. Holland, for example, and other western countries, have more relaxed ruling covering such material. HOWEVER, federal law prohibits the importation of such material into the US, either in person, or by electronic means.

"Kidddy porn" cover any "pictorials" of any persons under the age of majority, i.e. 18 in the US), This is generally meant to cover persons that appear to be clearly pre-pubescent. An exception to that is for such depictions to be of persons that can be documented to be above the age 18, in spite of lack of genital development (my friend Tim is an example of that exception). In careful reading of the above ruling, there is still some flexibly when it comes to adolescent youth that are not engaged in clearly sexual activities and/or the receiver was not involved in the further sale and distribution of such martial.

Keep in mind, that state laws may be more restrictive in the definition of what is defined as "pocession of child pornography" is.

Contrary to certain statements made by some conservative religious groups, a higher percentage of those that collect "kiddy porn" are heterosexuals, not homosexuals, as confirmed by arrest and conviction rates. This mirrors the rates involving all types of sexually illegal behavior and rape.

Pedophiles are those persons that are drawn (potentially sexually) to the naked form of the pre-pubescent youth.

Ephebophiles are those persons that are drawn (potentially sexually) to the naked form of the adolescent youth (that appear to be under 18). In many cases the young person is legally old enough to be photographed.

Both homosexuals and heterosexuals can fall into either category above or neither. The 2 types of groups are independent of each other, sexuality and/collector of pornography..

Many 18 to 22/23 shave themselves to appear to fit in the 15 to 18 year-old category to draw in those persons that will to pay for photographs of persons that have the appearance of that age range (15 to 18) but are legally certified to be 18 or above. This is exactly what the case above covered. the result was that as long as that age of the model can be certified is over the age of 18 (for photographs), the depictions are legal. That why Slammr always draws his drawings that clearly have adult genitalia.

The court also restricted the law further to limit the law as to cover only photographs of "real persons" (such photographs that may nave been created so as to victimize the person in the picture) but prohibited enforcement of the law when it came to such depiction that were clearly created by hand or by the use of a computer wherein no "actual person" was used in the creation of the depiction.

The commercial companies use lawyers that specialize in maintaining such certifications. A driver's license or passport is sufficient to meet the requirements of the law as it now stands given the Supreme Court ruling cited in the case. The purpose of the ruling was to draw a "bright line" that did not exist in the law as originally written.

Most times, local law enforcement will not pursue a case where the depictions are not of pre-adolescent youth.

Federal authorities WILL get involved when it involves sales and distribution of depictions of persons th at are obviously pre-pubescent, most commonly when it involves the use of the USPS to transport said illicit material across state lines, said material having been purchased by the end customer.

The USPS has run stings in this way in the past sending out solicitations that make it clear that material is offered for sale is of underaged youth. I can't recall if I ever received one, but if I did, it went straight into the waste bin, not caring in the offered material.

The simple implication is that don't keep photographs of "actual minors." (Adults like Tim are a legal exception, as long as clear documentation can be provided). Under the 1st Amendment, stories that are strictly text of any type, or content, cannot be restricted.

-YC

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:22 pm
by skivvynine (imported)
Your information is greatly appreciated. The only thing I find wrong with your article is that there is no country called Holland. Holland is a providence of the Netherlands. It is like making Texas and The US synonymous. I have a degree in Geography. The countries should be called by their correct names.🙏

Re: Where does writing erotica and doing "kiddy porn" separate?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:12 pm
by Paolo
If it becomes a crime to write about children in sexual situations, then the following books I have read should be banned, and the authors jailed:

Anne Rice - Cry to Heaven - castration of boys as the theme in Italy.

Orson Scott Card - Lost Boys - murder of boys, as well as the Alvin Maker series - castration of minors threatened. Also, Songmaster.

David Eddings - The Belgariad/Mallorean Series - castration of boys mentioned, one character is a eunuch who states he was 'nullified' as a baby.

Stephen King - take your pick - child abuse and molestation run through many of his works.

Dean Koontz - abuse here and there.

The Holy Bible - child abuse and circumcision, implied castration of minors, war, violence, slavery, murder, you name it.

And I'm sure the list goes on.