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In reading several biographic posts on here , I noticed that being molested as a child seems to be a common thread. I was molested twice as child. It did not impact my sexuality , I have known I was gay for a long time, but I wonder if it has made me uneasy with sexual pleasure ... I have gone from wild episodes of sexual indulgence, to horrified abstinence and back again for years. Castration appeals to me as relief from this constant struggle and the chaos that the wild episodes cause.... How do others feel about this subject. Is molestation common among EA members?

Milkman (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:20 pm In reading several biographic posts on here , I noticed that being molested as a child seems to be a common thread. I was molested twice as child. It did not impact my sexuality , I have known I was gay for a long time, but I wonder if it has made me uneasy with sexual pleasure ... I have gone from wild episodes of sexual indulgence, to horrified abstinence and back again for years. Castration appeals to me as relief from this constant struggle and the chaos that the wild episodes cause.... How do others feel about this subject. Is molestation common among EA members?

It all depends how you define "molested". Should children playing sex games with other children be considered molestation? There are other ways to abuse (molest) a child. I think we put too much emphasis on sex abuse. Much of the abuse is in the form of verbal or psychological abuse.

What many of us suffer from is sexual addiction. It is akin to alcohol or drug addiction. Childhood sexual molestation can be one of the causes.

Your description of wild sex sprees followed by abstinence, applies to me also.

No, not with other children, but forced sex with an adult....

Milkman first I want to say I am sorry you were vicitmized. Yes it does influence many aspects of your life. I was sexualized early before I was emotionally prepared for sex. In some ways I stopped being a child and locked into this hypersexual person. At 52 I am still trying to become a whole person.

I do not feel like my abuse caused me to be gay. Like you I think that was already a part of me. If anything I think much of what has happened in my life would make me straight. Males have not always been kind but I still hope to find a loving one.

I am happy and I enjoy life. I have work to do before I can enjoy it to the next level. Castration was a life saving surgery for me. My sexual addiction would have lead to my death. I would not have healed or figured out what was wrong all those years under the influence of testosterone. This is what helped me but it may not be the right choice for you.

I wish you the best on your path and deciding what is right for you. I wish you happiness and peace.

Still paying the price for others' pleasures.

I don't think that there is ever an excuse for molesting anybody of any age. My heart goes out to all who have experienced this.

I was molested by the neighbour's son; he was about 14 years old and I was 10. We went for a walk across the fields, paddled in the river and sunbathed naked. He got me to kiss and play with his penis. It made me feel like his special friend and I've always remembered that hot summer day with pleasure. It never happened again and we never talked about it. I'm certain I was already gay, and he's been happily married for many years now so I think it was just a bit of experimentation at puberty on his part. Don't think it made me want to be a eunuch.

eunuch2001 (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:11 pm I was molested by the neighbour's son; ... It made me feel like his special friend and I've always remembered that hot summer day with pleasure....

Sex with another person, to me, is a way of expressing deep friendship. Sadly there are those who are frightened by such a concept.

Milkman (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:20 pm In reading several biographic posts on here , I noticed that being molested as a child seems to be a common thread. I was molested twice as child. It did not impact my sexuality , I have known I was gay for a long time, but I wonder if it has made me uneasy with sexual pleasure ... I have gone from wild episodes of sexual indulgence, to horrified abstinence and back again for years. Castration appeals to me as relief from this constant struggle and the chaos that the wild episodes cause.... How do others feel about this subject. Is molestation common among EA members?

Can you describe what kind of molestation you suffered?

I feel that a phrase 'child molestation' has become close to hysteria. It is not defined what is it. Is it when a neighbour threaten to cut your balls after you have managed accidentally to brake some of his property? Or is it when somebody threaten your life and/or act his or her sexual fantasies on you against your will?

I do not consider myself molested as a child.

Life is full of psychic traumas and probable molestation could simply be one of these traumas in the row. For example, if somebody dies a child loves so much is big trauma. Bullying in the school is not a smaller trauma. And we know that it could lead to suicide or even shooting spree in the school.

I think that instead of (over)protecting our children from (bad) world we should teach them how to cope with psychological problems. How to overcome difficulties so that they would not cause trauma.

Problems and bad things happen, we cannot avoid them.

Setup of your mind when meeting troubles is more important than blaming others later.

Perhaps I have been grown up in perfect conditions and I do not know what molestation mean... So please forgive me in advance if I hurt somebody!

E.

eunuch2001 (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:11 pm I was molested by the neighbour's son; he was about 14 years old and I was 10. We went for a walk across the fields, paddled in the river and sunbathed naked. He got me to kiss and play with his penis. It made me feel like his special friend and I've always remembered that hot summer day with pleasure. It never happened again and we never talked about it. I'm certain I was already gay, and he's been happily married for many years now so I think it was just a bit of experimentation at puberty on his part. Don't think it made me want to be a eunuch.

I would like to add to Kangan, that it is a crucial importance how we percieve acts of other person.

I read somewhere in the book long ago, that there is a tribe on Papua New Guinea where it is normal to have sex if you want to express your positive feelings toward other person. Even underage boys and girls have sex just for relaxation. The greatest orgasms you are able to give the greatest you are considered. Such a tribe!!!

Another example is a coming of age rite where grown up men cause pain and suffering to teenage boys. Like hunger, circumcision without anesthesia, suspension by back skin etc... we could think that this is a child molestation. But they think, it is their pride to come through it. Is it causing a trauma? Perhaps.. Perhaps not. It depends how you think.

When I speak of molestation I am speaking of an adult using a 6-7 year old child for their sexual release. The normal development of the child is stunted.

Erikboy,

You don't consider forced sex with an adult, which happened to me molestation.. just another event???? What an odd statement you are making..

Milkman (imported) wrote: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:55 am Erikboy,

You don't consider forced sex with an adult, which happened to me molestation.. just another event???? What an odd statement you are making..

I have to apologise for my poor ability to explain myself. English is not my first language. I try to put my thoughts into simple sentences.

Forced sex with anybody is simply rape. Rape of any form is not acceptable.

As I said I do not know the definition of 'molestation'. Is molestation considered as a rape?

I am not familiar with your molestation case. If you liked to reveal details, it would be interesting for others to learn of your experience. Including me.

It is always easy and safe to say that I am against any rape and molestation. No further discussion of the problem will follow.

Constant and repeated abuse is the worst kind of abuse. No matter if sexual or not. Think of bullying in the school or of a perverted grandfather.

Single episodes are more easily recoverable. But very traumatic events, like death of a loved parent or divorce of parents can be as traumatic to a child as sexual abuse.

In that sense we can not say that sexual abuse is worst of all abuses. Or most traumatic.

I don't think that children sexual abuse is only a western countries problem. It seem to be global. Only we speak more openly about that.

In countries where child labour is everyday life and child trafficking is widespread, child molestation simply can not be uncommon.

There is an interesting article about child sexual abuse in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

There are some definitions too:

sexual molestation - a term defining offenses in which an adult engages in non-penetrative activity with a minor for the purpose of sexual gratification; for example, exposing a minor to pornography or to the sexual acts of others

sexual exploitation - a term defining offenses in which an adult victimizes a minor for advancement, sexual gratification, or profit; for example, prostituting a child,[115] and creating or trafficking in child pornography.

sexual assault - a term defining offenses in which an adult touches a minor for the purpose of sexual gratification; for example, rape (including sodomy), and sexual penetration with an object.[112] Most U.S. states include, in their definitions of sexual assault, any penetrative contact of a minor's body, however slight, if the contact is performed for the purpose of sexual gratification.[113]

sexual grooming - defines the social conduct of a potential child sex offender who seeks to make a minor more accepting of their advances, for example in an online chat room[117]

Protecting our children is good. Only keeping them in sterile environment makes them much more vulnerable when they need to start to make their own decisions. We should teach them to recognize problems early and teach them how to seek for help. I understand, that this is problematic when one of parents is a molester. But somehow we need to make our children stronger.

E.

I wish to talk about my own experince as a child.

I remember that I had sexual feelings at very early age. Before puberty. I had some sexual fantasies. They were quite simple and not very strong but they were there.

I started to masturbate at age 7 or 8. Regularily. I found it out how to masturbate by my own. I didn't know even how to call that act.

I felt it to be pleasureable, thats why I did it regularily. Still at the same time I was not sure if it was right what I was doing. So it remained my big secret until I learned that most boys masturbate.

I wish I was more educated before I started to masturbate. I wish I was aware of my sexuality. I wish I knew that it was nothing wrong with my sexuality.

As a child I played games with other children that had sexual agenda.

Also we discussed sexual issues with children too.

I remember that there was an issue if one should show his or her privates to somebody he or she really likes. If other person asks. We were 2 boys and 2 girls between ages 8-10

I never discussed any sexual things with any adult. As we, children, were considered to be sexless. Somehow we knew that without asking.

Once there was a man in our playground who liked to show us his privates. He came there quite regularily for a short time period. As there were many of us around at any time, we felt quite safe and had a lots of fun of him.

Now I think that there should have been at least one adult who I trusted and who would have been a reliable source of answers to my simple but very private sex related questions. no matter if it was my father or just a friend. We, children often did not know correct answers and we spread rumours instead. Like masturbation is a bad habit. Only fools or queers do it etc...

This topic confuses me greatly. Though the main reason I want to post is because erikboy's posts make some sense to me (though, admitedly, we're veering off topic...).

Nothing traumatic happened to me before my whole identity crisis started in sixth grade. Yeah, I went all that time with only one functioning eye (in itself not at perfect power), but I think that contributed to the fact that nothing really bothered me until the twenty-first century.

My parents never really hid anything, but at the same time never explicitly discussed supposed deep meaningful stuff. Death was something I just accepted early on. I knew about unhealthy habits like smoking and alcoholism and drug abuse and theft and lying and all of that, and somehow the way it was handled around me made it easy to just look at those sorts of things as obviously stupid. I came up with this "it doesn't matter what the crowd says; just do your best" mentality (which later pushed the limits of "Now I'm intentionally flipping off social norms", but I digress...).

But with regards to sexuality, I knew absolutely nothing until... when? In third grade I had a friend who had apparently learned something about it and would jokingly mention it in the same vein as bodily humor, but I didn't pick up anything about what it was. There was something about the penis, two people, and at some point I heard mention of sexual intercourse on some court show... (I think it was "We the Jury", if I remember correctly... just one line that revealed that sex could involve man atop woan in bed).

I'm not entirely sure how much I put together before sex ed, though. But then we get to Junior High, and it's one of those things you can't get away from because of hw eighth grade boys tend to talk about things...

So I come out of all of that and am starting to get frustrated by the fact that apparently in this "new amazing adult world" peple won't shut up about something that, for all intents and purposes, didn't exist for over half my life. And then I learn about sex abuse of childrn, and how people seem to believe that sex has something to do with affection or relationships and I'm all confused.

And I think what leaves it bothering me so much is that out of nowhere comes something completely new and bizarre, that somehow relates to things that interested me before (In the "I'm bored before falling asleep at night and imagine random ye non perverted adventures involving large amounts of nudity" way... and the fact tat I am in no way comfortable with the way my body has changed since, oh, around the same time...). And yet, it's something so completely different from that... almost antithetical to everything, and adds an unnecessary layer of complexity that won't leave me alone.

I guess that ties in, somehow.

Mortal Kombat never bothered me. And yet sexuality in general bothers me immensely. Why?

Violence is straight forward. Darth Vader slashes Luke Skywalker's hand with a lightsaber, Luke's hand goes flying into the distance, and he screams in agony. Nothing hard to understand about that (though admitedly I never thought about the psychological impact of losing a hand... mainly because there's always a replacement or something in stories like Starwars and Peter Pan...).

Sexuality... isn't. It's something that needs either explaining, or discerning through experiences that are less universal than death. No matter what age you are, where you're from, or whatever... death still happens. But sex is something else entirly... it happens everywhere, right? What with the population and all. And yet, what has it ever had to do with me?

You can't ignore the existence of death. You can try to sidestep it by covering up the disappearances of friends and family and animals, or by inventing ideas about the afterlife forcomfort... but death is still there. Pain still happens.

But it's easily possible for one's only exposure to sexuality to be their own creation. I understood pregnancy rather promptly... but I never particularly cared to inquire as to what caused it.

And apparently sexuality is more than just conception.

I don't know what to make of any of this.

But how does introduction to the concept through sexual abuse or other experiences impact one's views on it?

I wonder if I'm not confused purely because I didn't know about it for over half my life.

(And something I keep noticing, and is reenforced by some experiences I've read here... the presence of "big brother" type figures--friends or relatives that are older, but still kids--seem to have quite an impact on people. Whereas I was an only child for five years, and still act(ed) like it in many instances after my sister was born... I had older cousins, and all, but I never spent a good deal of time with most of them--I was born kinda late, so most of them were at least ten years older than me. Mostly I was around girl cousins if anyone, or my parents or grandparents. And even then, the most extent of any adventures with others would have been... Hmm.).

I'll end this before it turns into something I'd consider publishing if asked for memoirs. -_-. But I do have to wonder how my relative isolation compares to the apparent opposite for others?

I also want to bring up another cultural thing. Mainly the apparent differences in what is acceptable between American and Japanese children's entertainment. Take something like Dragonball, which is most certainly a show for a younger audience in Japan... and there are plenty of breasts, exposed boy genetils, and characters whose noteworthy traits are their pervertedness. (Oh, and plenty of violence).

In Japan, noone particularly cares that we have a twelve-year-old boy (who acts and looks more like five, who we see naked quite a lot) walking in on a sixteen year old girl taking a bath (and said character has been living in the woods for al of his life, so doesn't particularly get the whole sex thing either). Actually, this kid only learns the difference between boys and girls by accident, and for the more lighthearted parts of the series there's a running gag where he makes a point of finding out the gender of new people he meets.

... but when we try to bring that to someplace like the U.S., all kinds of sensorship goes down. (I'll also mention we had that "Nakey" episode of Rugrats in the nineties on Nickelodeon... and nowadays US cartoons are getting away with a lot more, but... why the difference? I genuinely don't understand any of this stuff, and this thread really just hits my confusion switch very hard... which... I guess explains the novel post.).

Ur... yeah. Sorry about that mess. I hope I'm not rambling off in my own little world again... (then again, my own little world might be less confusing if I could just distinguish what's real and what's balls-related. o.o. ).

This is a fascinating, necessary discussion. If we with our fantasies and determinations cannot accurately define some of these terms and actions then it's a conversation that will always stumble.

It is of concern that the media and "interested parties" have appropriated these terms and ideas and made them flash points to the public while completely ignoring the realities of the victims and the offenders. Certainly I do not support the latter but they are a factor. Is an offender a child who may be only slightly older than the victim? And there's the uncomfortable thought that the young can and do seduce older persons: I speak from experience. I took my first lover when I was 12 and he was 37. I will grant you that when I was twelve I was physically akin to a 25 year old and I was very much the predator. But in the eyes of most that changes nothing. We dismiss "children" as blameless in many, many things. If a person under, say, 15 commits murder every effort is made to show that the guilt for their deed lies elsewhere. Do we always know that's correct?

Not everything can be easily and simply codified in law or in our frames of reference. For example, rape and molestation are not necessarily the same. Rape is a violent, physical act. Molestation can vary from the subtly psychological to the overtly physical. How each of us defines that is necessarily personal but we must always be willing to hear other versions from other persons.

Things sexual of all stripe are the third rail of life. That I will be castrated is a horror to many I know. However, here, it excites no comment other than encouragement. I would suggest that we, here, have the broader view as we can see and consider far more sides than those who withdraw in disgust that any human might tamper with the imbued right to procreate.

Each of us needs to consider what constitutes molestation but not totally define it. We need to retain an open definition for, I assure you, once we think we've now heard it all, that's precisely when the "worst" we've ever heard occurs.

Considering (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:06 pm This is a fascinating, necessary discussion. If we with our fantasies and determinations cannot accurately define some of these terms and actions then it's a conversation that will always stumble.

It is of concern that the media and "interested parties" have appropriated these terms and ideas and made them flash points to the public while completely ignoring the realities of the victims and the offenders. Certainly I do not support the latter but they are a factor. Is an offender a child who may be only slightly older than the victim? And there's the uncomfortable thought that the young can and do seduce older persons: I speak from experience. I took my first lover when I was 12 and he was 37. I will grant you that when I was twelve I was physically akin to a 25 year old and I was very much the predator. But in the eyes of most that changes nothing. We dismiss "children" as blameless in many, many things. If a person under, say, 15 commits murder every effort is made to show that the guilt for their deed lies elsewhere. Do we always know that's correct?

Not everything can be easily and simply codified in law or in our frames of reference. For example, rape and molestation are not necessarily the same. Rape is a violent, physical act. Molestation can vary from the subtly psychological to the overtly physical. How each of us defines that is necessarily personal but we must always be willing to hear other versions from other persons.

Things sexual of all stripe are the third rail of life. That I will be castrated is a horror to many I know. However, here, it excites no comment other than encouragement. I would suggest that we, here, have the broader view as we can see and consider far more sides than those who withdraw in disgust that any human might tamper with the imbued right to procreate.

Each of us needs to consider what constitutes molestation but not totally define it. We need to retain an open definition for, I assure you, once we think we've now heard it all, that's precisely when the "worst" we've ever heard occurs.

My friend,

You are 'blaming' the VICTIM, (You) for the commission of child molestation.

This is WRONG... you WERE the victim, regardless of who initiated the encounter...

Regardless of how you may feel, the 37 year old that you 'victimized' as a child, (that even types out more ridiculous that is sounds spoken), WAS AN ADULT!

IT is the responsibility of ADULTS to reject such an overture from a child and the person who 'succumed' to your 'so-called' advances did you a disservice by going along with you. They DID, in fact MOLEST YOU. While you cannot reject a bullet from a gun weilded by a child or an adolescent, you CAN reject a sexual advance. There IS a difference. Understand?

Regardless of how you feel about what I just told you, if you govern your adult life by this philosophy, you can get in a lot of trouble because I can assure you that anybody that hears this will judge the adult as the one at fault and so will the criminal justice system.

Here! Here!

A-1

You have unintentionally proved my point by immediately assuming that the adult had to be the aggressor. That I was molested and only because of my age was I not able to recognize that. Let me put this a plainly as is possible. I saw this man whom I did not know, plotted how to attract his attention-through things other than sex-and then in a very direct way explained to him precisely what I wanted to to do him. You might argue that since he agreed that makes him the predator but I think otherwise. That he may have ultimately been complicit is a given. But never did I make any effort to stop the situation which continued until his death, at the time I was 27.

How often do we hear disastrous stories of children who make the basest and emptiest of accusations at an adult for revenge or because they think it will get them out of a situation. If you don't know that these things happen you'd best learn for you may be the next target. Children have a certain level of cunning that they can and will use to intimidate adults. The most common threat is to say, "If you don't do X, then I'll tell you touched me in a bad place." Sound familiar? I hope not to you but that child is not victim, they are in a sense a molester. It is a function of their greed and intent to get their own way with no understanding of the consequences to others that allows them to make this sort of threat. Sadly, the overwhelming accusations are real and knowing when to disbelieve is difficult.

But please, do not take the attitude that all children are of necessity the victim and all adults the victimizer.

Considering,

So, are you then telling us that in YOUR case, there was no victim, no crime?

It certainly sounds like it to me.

I have to respectfully agree with A-1, however.

Even if you as a twelve year-old initiated the contact in that particular case, I imagine you did because you had been previously sexually abused. Otherwise, I can't imagine a twelve year-old coming on to a 37 year-old.

Still, he was the adult, and just because a twelve year-old came on to him, it didn't mean he had to respond. Ultimately, the adult, who has reached the age of consent, has the responsibility for the act. He is he one that has comitted child abuse. The child, no matter what his actions, can't be the abuser.

Most abusers place the blame on the victim. "I couldn't help myself. He/she came on to me."

Considering,

Please do not think that we are NOT hearing what you are saying. You have the right to feel any way you want about your encounter.

However, if this is re-visited with YOU as the adult with another child then perhaps that child might come to feel as you have told us that you feel. The adult in these encounters is sometimes called a "sugar daddy". The glue is not always financial, however. It can be a longing to be an adult on the part of the child. However, a child who initiates such an encounter is NOT normal and needs help.

Understand that regardless of your feelings or the child's feelings that this sort of thing is dysfunctional and illegal in every country in the world. The countries all have different ages of responsibility, and those are clearly written in the law books. The laws vary from state to state, also. Before you do ANYTHING read up on the laws in your state.

If that child should enter therapy and be made to realize that adults have a responsibility NOT to enter into sexual relations with children. If such a relationship becomes known testimony in a court where the child cries and demands your absolution in court or to prosecutors this will be looked upon as a control of the adult over the child.

Remember, there are no statutes of limitations on child molestation and there can be civil consequences years after the occurance after the victim becomes an adult as certain Priests have found out. Furthermore, patterns of molestation with multiple abused childen or adults who were molested as children are strong cases against a perpetrator.

Please seek help to discuss the feelings you have further. If WE make you nervous here, then seek professional help.

If you carry this philosophy and end up acting upon it you place yourself in serious legal jepardy.

It is no matter if it is a GAY or STR8 relationship child/adult relationships are destructive for the child and sometimes that destruction manifests itself only after the victim reaches adulthood, when this sort of thing moves into another generation.

Bottom line, especially in this day and age, do not touch ANYBODY that is under 18 in a manner that could even be percieved to be sexual in nature.

Furthermore, if such a threat is made by a child on an adult, the adult needs to report it to authorities.

I can tell you that any child who does this has had problems and that these problems will become known unless you start doing their bidding.

Blackmail is blackmail, regardless of if it is sexual or otherwise. Appeasement doesn't work with a blackmailer any more than it does with a terrorist. If the adult reports an incident of a child sexually blackmailing them and in absence of physical evidence on the child's person the state has very little with which to prosecute the adult.

Sometimes, my friend, children need to be protected from themselves. The authorities are not fools and they have seen it all, regardless.

I hope that everyone is keeping in mind that it is not necessary for someone to be a victim just because they were exposed to victimizing behavior.

Let me explain - with a true story:

There is a teenager who was receiving therapy from someone I know, not a therapist, but an honest to God psychologist.

The boy talked about how he was conflicted about an event in his past. A few years earlier his teen aged, female babysitter and two of her friends had sex with him while he was clearly underage.

He stated that he knew he was supposed to feel bad, violated, etc. about what they had done to him, but he didn't. In fact, he remembered the events that took place quite fondly.

He was struggling to be the victim society expected him to be.

The doctor explained to him that victimizing behavior and victimization are not the same. While it is true that he was exposed to victimizing behaviors, and considering the age differences a sex crime was committed, whether or not he was a victim of the things that took place depends on how he interprets the situation.

In other words whether or not a person is a victim depends on their own interpretation of what took place, in essence did they feel harmed by what happened? It was victimizing behavior regardless, but they were victimized by it only if they feel they were harmed by it.

There have been children who felt much more brutalized by family services then they ever did by the adult who committed a crime against them.

I know one who is 20 now and still not allowed to see her father (he is in prison). She petitions the courts each year since turning 18 to have a family services restraining order removed. It was put in place to protect her from her father who molested not her, but one of her friends.

The prosecutor in the case claimed that when this girl was questioned, to determine if she was a victim or not, that she answered questions with the kind of knowledge only a molested child would know. The damming question came after a lengthy interrogation using anatomically correct dolls, etc. The question was, "If he did touch you someplace where he should not touch you where would he touch you?" Of course she went through "Good touch/Bad touch" in school, so she knew the answer to the question.

While the prosecution's argument was weak, at best, the restraining order was put in place out of the need to protect the child "just in case."

This is part of the reason why sex crime laws are a failure. The pressure to protect the victim, at all costs, is enormous, even when the recipient of the behavior does not feel they are a victim. It is assumed that all of these crimes create victims. But not all do, and not all of the supposed victims believe they were victimized - some, few though they may be - even come away feeling that what happened was a positive thing.

Also do not forget that Victimology (based on emotions, not science) actually stems from the Radical femminist movement and women like Andrea Dworkin who has made such statements as:

"Violence is male, male is the penis, the penis is violence."

and

"Every sexual act of intercourse between a man and a women is an act of rape as it requires the violent thrusting of the man into the woman."

Of course as people learn to accept victimological philosophies they also assume that nailing convicted sex offenders to the wall will reduce the crime rate by more than three percent, they won't. But the assumption allows them to sleep soundly at night feeling like like they have made a significant contribution to the safety of society at large.

I wonder how many men have found their way to sites like this one, drawn by the desire to escape the hatred of men that seems to ooze from the very pores of this society?

And as far as the younger person being the aggressor goes - I live in a society that will try a 12 year old boy as an adult, for murder.

My point being that if a 12 year old boy can be the aggressor in a crime of angry passion then why is it assumed that they are incapable of sexual passion of any kind, unless it is a criminal act directed at someone about their own age or younger? How is it that if their efforts are directed towards someone significantly older than themselves that they have suddenly become incapable of understanding their actions whereas if the recipient of their behavior is someone who is say ten, for example, they are a violent rapist and will be labeled as such, for life, because they are responsible for their actions? If this sexual passion is directed at someone much older than themselves should it really be considered a crime committed against them?

Regarding:

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:26 am Understand that regardless of your feelings or the child's feelings that this sort of thing is dysfunctional and illegal in every country in the world.

* The age of sexual consent in the Philippines is 12.

* The age of consent in Tonga is 12.

* Until recently there was not an age of consent in Japan (now it is said to be 18 or 13, depending on who you ask).

* There is a group of people who practice an unusual form of "conservation of prana." (I will need to edit this later to provide the name of the people and the location - for verification.) The young boys perform oral sex on the older boys until the older boys marry. In this way it is thought that the pranic energy of the older boys is not lost to activities like masturbation, but is passed on to the younger boys instead.

* It was once a common practice among the Polynesian islands for one of a boys grandmothers (maternal/paternal I don't recall) to blow into the foreskin of the boy while they were still quite young in order to enlarge it. Large foreskins were seen as attractive and desirable.

* States in the US consider it a crime for adults to have sex with minors, but they allow kids as young as 12 to get married with parental and sometime judicial permission. (Weird huh? If I marry a 13 year old girl we can do it like rabbits and it is a healthy, loving relationship, but if I do not marry her and we have sex it is rape.)

Blanket statements are rarely true.

Just few thoughts again...

Reading this thread, a post by Plix came into my mind. About maturity:

http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthr ... post100338

I feel that this is little bit related to this adult-child victim-victimizer theme.

Sometimes children can be more mature than adults.

I think it was in London where two 10 year old boys killed 4 year old boy. They killed him step by step. Killing process took several hours. Following day one of the killers returned to crime scene and brought a flower with him. They were sentenced for 10 years. Most people didn't give a sh... that they were only 10y old and perhaps did not clearly understood what they were doing. Unfortunately there was nobody there who could tell them that their behaviour is wrong. Just telling them by somebody they respected could have been enough to prevent this disaster. People who passed by mostly ignored obviously wrong situation they saw.

Why did they ignore?

Here, where I live, two underage boys set an abandoned house in fire. They did it intentionally - because They hate homeless men who lived there. There were 4 homeless men living in there, 2 of them managed to escape and 2 of them died. Boys were from normal families as were these London killer boys. Not perfect but, not worse than average.

A real life firsthand experience I heard:

There were around 5-7 boys aged 10-14 on the street that decided to make fun of 2 old people. First they started to throw them with snow balls and say nasty things. And whe they felt that they had the power they just started to rob them. Running by and taking things like bags these elderly people had. When old man finally catched one of the boys, the boy started to shout that he is being beated etc. Old man just released the boy in confusion. He didn't want to become 'child molester'. Who would believe him?

These were street children of course. Not a good environment to grow up.

Has anybody seen a movie 'Lord of the Flies' or read a book?

All psychopaths have been children too.

What is the age of consent? In US it is between mostly 16 and 18 for heteros. For example in Germany, Italy it is 14, Denmark 15.

Spain is even 13. Is it so that Germans do not protect their children?

There is an interesting series - Nanny 911

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_911

Many of you have seen it I think. There are plenty of examples how children take power from their parents. Who is victim there? Is it a child who manipulate his/her parents or is it a parent who is unable to control their children. Hard to tell which side need help. Both probably.

E.

Again...

It's disturbing that many are willing to make assumptions that are not correct. In advance of my affair which I initiated that I must have been molested. Wrong. To that point I had the usual very limited sexual experiences that children have.

Did I over-identify with adults? Possibly. By age thirteen I was 6'5" tall and was usually mistaken for a thirty five year old. Childhood was a bore and, clearly, adults did more interesting things. It may also be that growing up in a foreign, far more restrictive country made the "thrill" enhanced.

But let me draw your attention to the more important point which I cannot find has been addressed and that is children using the threat of saying molestation had occurred as a controlling mechanism. This has led some to suicide because they felt their careers, their lives had been threatened by a selfish, manipulative child who wanted their way and had heard about how making threats could be useful. This happens more often than adults might like to think simply because threatened adults do not report their experience.

Again we as a society rush to protect that which correctly should be protected however we need to be aware that in some circumstances things may not be as they seem. No child should experience the devastation of molestation whether physical or psychological. All that I'm suggesting is that we be careful about whom we accuse of doing what. In an era when children have a level of faux sophistication that we as adults don't see, it's necessary to be thoughtful about how we consider what we hear.

To the many of you who have courageously discussed their own molestations, my sympathies are endless. You have every reason to look back and revile what happened. You are to be admired for being open about your experience and one certainly hopes that some of the trauma has been resolved.

Only when I was quite nearly an adult did anything of a negative physical nature happen to me. At age 19 I was beaten with a golf club by my American father so severely that I spent two years in a hospital having my spine, pelvis, both legs...etc. repaired and rehabilitative therapy applied. Indeed I finished my undergraduate work while there. But that does not approach the horror of sexual assault by an adult and the loss of trust for a child.

Again...

Considering (imported) wrote: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:41 pm It's disturbing that many are willing to make assumptions that are not correct. In advance of my affair which I initiated that I must have been molested. Wrong. To that point I had the usual very limited sexual experiences that children have.

Did I over-identify with adults? Possibly. By age thirteen I was 6'5" tall and was usually mistaken for a thirty five year old. Childhood was a bore and, clearly, adults did more interesting things. It may also be that growing up in a foreign, far more restrictive country made the "thrill" enhanced.

But let me draw your attention to the more important point which I cannot find has been addressed and that is children using the threat of saying molestation had occurred as a controlling mechanism. This has led some to suicide because they felt their careers, their lives had been threatened by a selfish, manipulative child who wanted their way and had heard about how making threats could be useful. This happens more often than adults might like to think simply because threatened adults do not report their experience.

Again we as a society rush to protect that which correctly should be protected however we need to be aware that in some circumstances things may not be as they seem. No child should experience the devastation of molestation whether physical or psychological. All that I'm suggesting is that we be careful about whom we accuse of doing what. In an era when children have a level of faux sophistication that we as adults don't see, it's necessary to be thoughtful about how we consider what we hear.

To the many of you who have courageously discussed their own molestations, my sympathies are endless. You have every reason to look back and revile what happened. You are to be admired for being open about your experience and one certainly hopes that some of the trauma has been resolved.

Only when I was quite nearly an adult did anything of a negative physical nature happen to me. At age 19 I was beaten with a golf club by my American father so severely that I spent two years in a hospital having my spine, pelvis, both legs...etc. repaired and rehabilitative therapy applied. Indeed I finished my undergraduate work while there. But that does not approach the horror of sexual assault by an adult and the loss of trust for a child.

First of all, considering, I want to congratulate you for your survival. In light of that which you have written in this post the fact that you are as sane as you appear to be is nothing short of a miracle.

I do not want to get into all of the dysfunction that your post tells me of but suffice it to say that anybody who has been beaten with golf clubs by their father, ... well, it could have not been the first abuse that was suffered by them at his hand. Remember, not all abuse is physical, and generally a pattern of abuse escalates from psychological into physical.

Nevertheless, I wish you to promise to yourself and to us here, your friends, that never again will you suffer abuse in this manner. You do not deserve this sort of treatment, nobody does and it IS illegal and I hope that your father paid consequences for doing this to you.

I wish to conclude by telling you that it is my sincere belief that much of the bad things that have happened to you in your lifetime so far are NOT your fault.

Remember, it is hard to tell when you are abusing others when you yourself are not fully aware of when and how you were abused. As you say, abuse is in the eye of the abusee. However, when that eye that you must look through has been injured by abuse, it is hard to see clearly from it.