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Hi,

I'm writing a piece of fiction about ancient Persia, a time and place where eunuchs were created for the purpose of guarding the royal women and performing many other domestic tasks. Some may have become scribes or held positions of responsibilty in the government. Does anyone have any information on eunuchs in ancient history?

Thanks,

Marcia

At the risk of being insulting, my first response is to suggest you stop being a lazy writer and do your research instead of asking everyone else to do it. There are numerous books on topic, likely available in your local library, or nearby university library, to say nothing of materials on the internet. If after doing your essential, basic research, you have specific questions, then ask them - there are a few folks here who do have some expertise on the topic, historically.

Check out, "The Physician" by Noah Gordon.

He describes what went on to create modified men for

harem duty, and how far the modification need go

depending on being stationed, outside or inside with the ladies.

After surgery, urination was aided with a quill.

Thanks. Will do.

I would have been a bit gentler than Kristoff, but he has it basically right. You need to do a bit of research FIRST, before you begin asking questions. Eunuchs held a very wide variety of positions in the various kingdoms and empires of the ancient Near East. Harem duty was only a very small part of it. Military officers and government administrators were often eunuchs - mostly eunuchs in some times and places. I could probably write 30 to 40 pages of detailed information off the top of my head (mostly with proper academic citations from memory), but I'm not about to try to tackle something this broad.

Check out the many posts on the Non-Fiction board here on the Archive. Do a bit of web research (not trusting Wikipedia or other non-academic sources too much). THEN you'll be equipped to ask more specific questions which someone here can probably answer easily.

Jesus,

Thanks for the tip. I did look for some non-fiction articles on your site before I submitted the question but I couldn't find any. Now I see that 5 pertinent articles are linked at the bottom of the page, including several of yours. I've started reading them.

I've seen some sources that say that the vast majority of Persian eunuchs were conquered subjects and could not have risent to positions of responsibility. Like you, I had been under the impression that some eunuchs *did* rise to high ranks so I have been looking for some evidence of this. A little piece of my plot depends on it.

I'll read the Eunuchs in Power article and the rest tomorrow and ask more specific questions later.

Thanks,

Marcia

marcialou (imported) wrote: Sun May 03, 2009 12:58 pm I've seen some sources that say that the vast majority of Persian eunuchs were conquered subjects and could not have risen to positions of responsibility.

On the other hand, the eunuchs were ripped from their natal families and support network. They were castrated so that they could produce no descendants. Their only loyalty was perceived to be toward their ruler and their new colleagues in the administration. This made them more loyal and much more deserving of advancement than natives who were concerned about supporting kinsmen....

Another role eunuchs played in ancient times was as priests in many of the religions. From Egypt and Sumeria on religions often contained gods castrated to ensure the fertility of the fields. A good place to research this is Frazier' The Golden Bough. Male followers would re-enact this in wild orgiastic celebrations. A historian describes them thusly "in Babylon an annual ritual involved young men slicing off their own genitals, including the penis, and flinging these into nearby houses as they ran bleeding and in great pain through the streets of the city. In return for this sacrifice women's clothes were handed them and thereafter they spent their time at female tasks." I often wonder why they didn't bleed to death. Often these priests worked as trans temple prostitutes. The Roman poet Catullus describes in his famous poem #63 a young follower awakening the next morning to grieve his nullifying himself in a wild orgy the night before. I have often wondered why the EA story archive has so many stories of castrated harem guards, and so few of castrated priests. I would think Catullus' poem would make a great place to start.

Transward

MarciaLou,

Some of my early education (and prurient kicks:D) came via reading already published works. I recommend the following:

"Byzantium" (I can't recall the author and my copy is lent.)

"The Persian Boy" by Mary Renault (she made cute cars too;) )

Of the two, the latter deals more with Alex T. Great and his doings re war and sex while the former reveals far more re the inner workings of the Byzantine empire and the role of castration as an avenue to advancement, creation of eunuchs for sex play, and as a punitive measure.

Should someone recommend "Cry To Heaven" by Anne Rice be aware that it deals purely with Italian boys castrated to preserve their soprano voices, not the era to which you refer. Lots of sex, though, between eunuchs and women...eunuchs and intact men...and eunuchs with eunuchs. Hot stuff.

Frankly, there seems to be more than enough already published on the topic but another is always welcome.

BTW, I am a genetic female, bisexual (the Lipstick Lesbian type, not at all butch,) with what I admit is a "Castration Fascination". I personally know four castrated individuals and am intimate with two of them...what fun! I am a member of a group of like-minded females and we meet often to discuss and have "Show and tell" with the persons mentioned above.

I cannot invite Private Messaging, sad to say, since my time is limited and my "PM Pal Dance Card" is full...with a whole TWO members Still, if I can assist in some meaningful way you may address that here in open forum and I'll do what I can.

And now, ladies and genitals, I'm off to (are you sitting down?) a prayer breakfast!

Luv and Luck to all,

Yoli

Certifiably Fun chica in San Antonio

Hi Folks,

You've given me a lot to read and think about. Let me tell you a little more about my project.

My novel in progress is a retelling of the Book of Esther from the Hebrew Bible. The main characters are not eunuchs but Hegai, "keeper of the women" is an important secondary character. To develop him as a character and understand who his friends might be I need to know where he comes from, what the circumstances were in his becoming a euncuch, how old he was when he was castrated, what his social status is, whether he dresses as a man, woman, or eunuch, what kind of intimate relations he is capable and desirous of, what he looks like as eunuch and more. When I say "know" I mean I'm going to make it up based on research.

Eunuchs in ancient history is only one of the topics I have been researching. I need to learn about all aspects of the royal court, the status of women, the religions of the time, the rabbinical interpretations of the Esther story, marriage ceremonies, funerals, etc. etc.

Thanks for all your interest and advice. I'll keep you posted as Hegai's biography emerges.

Marcia

This is always a good resource, a simple google search and choose wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

Renault's The Persian Boy and Funeral Games deal with Persian eunuchs from the late Achaemenian period; they are works of fiction, but readable and well researched, and Renault has an afterword detailing the assumptions she makes about various historical problems associated with the scant information concerning Bagoas, the Achaemenian eunuch who became one of Alexander's advisors.

The Cambridge History of Iran is the source for historical background on the period you mentioned.

Roland Grubb Kent's Old Persian Grammar, Texts and Lexicon (American Oriental Society 1952) is breathtakingly boring but it contains translations of all of the then known Old Persian texts including the great Behistan inscription in which Darius the Great describes in excruciating detail how he defeated, tortured, and dismembered his political rivals.

Though it deals with the Ottomans, Penzer's The Harem, originally published in 1936 but with later reprints, has detailed material on the castration and training of eunuchs which is probably valid for antiquity as well. Since Renault's description of Bagoas's castration parallels much of Penzer's material, I assume she consulted it.

marcialou might like to know that I have already written two multi-part stories here about ancient Persia, although this fact should not deter him from producing his own.

One, also based on the Biblical Book of Esther, was, given this fact, rather incongruously titled 'Spartans'. The second, based on Heroditus' works, was 'Tribute', and both contain fairly comprehensive historical information relating to the period.

PUEROS

Hi,

marcialou (imported) wrote: Sun May 03, 2009 5:38 am I'm writing a piece of fiction about ancient Persia, a time and place where eunuchs were created for the purpose of guarding the royal women and performing many other domestic tasks. Some may have become scribes or held positions of responsibilty in the government. Does anyone have any information on eunuchs in ancient history?

Thanks,

Marcia

Dear Marcia,

Though not 100 % correlated please find below the link for "Ottoman's Harem" which at those times especially between 1500 till 1840, there were countless of eunuchs at the Harems, think then we were of the countries having q huge population of eunuch. At the link it gives info about where they have come from and alittle about the castration procudure...

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/harem.htm

Greetings from istanbul

Hakan

While I would always caution about trusting Wikipedia articles, I would be especially cautious about their article on eunuchs. I was asked a couple of years ago to check it for accuracy and found some glaring errors. I made a copy of the article and went to my set of academic resources on the history of castration and eunuchs (nearly 12 feet of bookshelf space) and spent a couple of days rewriting the article to reflect the best current scholarship.

A few days after posting the revision, I checked back and discovered that nearly every change that I had made had been removed and the previous error put back. About the only bit that remains of my corrections is a single UNATTRIBUTED point that I had taken from a letter that had been sent to me by Prof. Maekawa Kazuya, one of the world's foremost Sumerologists. I had read a couple of his articles in Japanese academic journals and had written to him asking for clarification.

You should also be aware that there is no solid evidence that I have been able to find that prepubertal eunuchs in the ancient Near East had their penises removed. That seems to have been reserved for use as a judicial punishment and the resulting eunuchs would not have been in administrative or palace service. In fact, the early Moslem conquerors of the area (as well as of the Byzantine Empire) saw the lack of penectomy of harem eunuchs in those areas as a sign of sexual perversion. They were the ones who insisted that eunuchs serving in the women's quarters be "clean cut."

A couple of Eunuch Archive posts that give information relevant to the proposed piece of fiction can be found at:

http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12171

http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12344

Once again, thanks to everyone for your interest. I just got Persian Boy out of the library but I haven't started it yet.

Pueros, How do I find your fiction? I'm eager to read another story based on Esther.

Marcia

In answer to your question, marcialou, go to the story board here & the grid representing the alphabetical author index. Click on 'P' & scroll down to 'Pueros', where you'll find all of the stories I've written for the board, including the 12-part 'Spartans', based loosely on the Biblical Book of Esther, although that fact is not revealed until towards the end. My other completed story about ancient Persia, 'Tribute', set at a similar time, is there too.

PUEROS

In the printed word, or spoken word, the content is either

Fabricated

Inaccurate

Incomplete

Altered

Based on one or more of the above

or

True

The statistical odds are thus against something being true.

In all things: doubt, question, multi-source research for validation.

I just finished Persian Boy by Mary Renault. Thanks to those who recommended it to me. It's a great source.

Jesus: I'm trying to track down some of those scholarly sources you cite in your article. No luck yet. I've traced the Llewellyn Jones piece to a Harvard library to which I don't have access. I know a few students who might be willing to borrow it for me, so with luck, I'll get to look at it.

Marcia