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The term "detransitioning is being used for MTF transsexuals who return to their male status, but I would like to add that there seem to be a fair number of " former eunuchs", eunuchs who after castration reject the eunuch label, disassociate themselves from the eunuch support groups such as this one and apparently resume living as males. I have known four men in this category.. all of whom were castrated in their 20's. usually this takes place a year or so after castration. Has anyone else noticed this form of " detransitioning" among eunuchs?

Haven't noticed, but I would suspect that young castrates might detransition, simply because they made the decision when they were young; maybe too young. Castration, becoming a eunuch, is something that should not be done in haste or until after you're a bit older. I say that because sometimes young people are too rash in their decisions. But, I suppose that's not always true, older men can be rash in decisions too. As for the best time to get castrated? Maybe 45-50, before prostate issues arise, but I have no definitive time, what's right for one person might not be right for another, however, older men who get castrated, such as myself, seem less likely, in my opinion, to detransition. Perhaps that's because older men are more ready for it or have looked forward to it for more years.

This is a very interesting question. I view it as one of identity in my case. Castrated myself 6 months ago (at age 30), went on HRT earlier this month, still have my destroyed nonfunctional testicles but hoping to lose those...and more...soon. I view myself as a masculine eunuch both on and off of T, but most people will just treat me as a regular male, and that's fine with me.

I have been wondering if this mostly relates to those who get castrated specifically to rid themselves of T, only to change their minds. I know one guy who did that. I guess in that case one's identity can switch back and forth if one thinks of being a eunuch as being without testosterone.

I know it's a sensitive question for those here, but I think that the best people to talk about this are those who have done this. What does it mean to detransition back from eunuch to male? Is it a matter of hormones? Other shifts of identity?

you make the severely mistaken notion that most or all men who become eunuchs must necessarily not identify as male. I am an eunuch, and I am very male, and really always have been. Many others share the same situation.

He said, as he posed for the picture...

hehe

Kristoff makes a good point I identify my self as a male eunuch

Yes but all of you still identify yourself as eunuchs.. male or maybe neutral... The men I have stayed in contact with don't identify as eunuch any more...

Milkman (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:13 am Yes but all of you still identify yourself as eunuchs.. male or maybe neutral... The men I have stayed in contact with don't identify as eunuch any more...

Were they chemical eunuchs or surgical? If surgical, they're still eunuchs, no matter what gender identity they assume - physical nature and gender do not have to match in perceived equipment...

Milkman (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:04 am The term "detransitioning is being used for MTF transsexuals who return to their male status, but I would like to add that there seem to be a fair number of " former eunuchs", eunuchs who after castration reject the eunuch label, disassociate themselves from the eunuch support groups such as this one and apparently resume living as males. I have known four men in this category.. all of whom were castrated in their 20's. usually this takes place a year or so after castration. Has anyone else noticed this

kristoff wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:22 am form of " detransitioning" among eunuchs?

Were they chemical eunuchs or surgical? If surgical, they're still eunuchs, no matter what gender identity they assume - physical nature an

d gender do not have to match in perceived equipment...

It is true that more younger eunuch's have problems adapting to being an eunuch. Very often this is due to the young age being done. Most have not really thought castration out. Did not really know about all the side effects. Many also think that they will not get some side effects. Or can do mind over matter and undo the effects. After living as a eunuch, they have second thoughts. Often will go on HRT.

A eunuch life is a very special life. The outside world has an impression on what and how we feel. Living in this world takes on new meaning to life.

Some get castrated for the very wrong reason. That is to please another person. To make them self a better slave. Make them less masculine. Some have problems dealing with gender. They are confused on who and what they are. All to often it is done as part living out a fantasy. Can not separate thoughts from reality.

You did not mention the guys that go through sex change operations. Some of them do not adjust well and go back to a life of being a outward appearing male. (still well be an eunuch for life.)

Most of the people that are on the message board or in chat room can be very active till castrated. They may stay around for a short time. We never here about them months or years later. They are just gone. I think it is often that they are living out the fantasy. Once they are castrated the fantasy is gone. Or like you say

Milkman (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:04 am disassociate themselves from the eunuch support group.

As Kristoff mentioned the mind and body are two different parts.

Bobbie has a good point about adjusting well or not adjusting well. I think this applies to eunuchs as well as to some mis-gendered people. Someone I had known a long time ago went through SRS and then went back to living as a male. When I was castrated he stopped all contact with me without a word of explanation. My guess is that I reminded him of what he saw as his inability to adjust. --FLO--

I have always wondered about this from a fantasy story idea. the concept of re-balling a eunuch. Ungelding a horse. unsteering a bull.

What would cause this? an act of a god? medical technology? both? neither?

interesting story idea.

Eunuchorn (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:35 am I have always wondered about this from a fantasy story idea. the concept of re-balling a eunuch. Ungelding a horse. unsteering a bull.

What would cause this? an act of a god? medical technology? both? neither?

interesting story idea.

Magic! --FLO--

Milkman (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:04 am The term "detransitioning is being used for MTF transsexuals who return to their male status, but I would like to add that there seem to be a fair number of " former eunuchs", eunuchs who after castration reject the eunuch label, disassociate themselves from the eunuch support groups such as this one and apparently resume living as males. I have known four men in this category.. all of whom were castrated in their 20's. usually this takes place a year or so after castration. Has anyone else noticed this form of " detransitioning" among eunuchs?

The first thing that came to my mind was...Why did they get castrated? If it was cancer or another health issue, perhaps what has happened is that they don't want to accept the eunuch label so steer clear of those of us who have accepted and looked forward to our condition. They want to be "normal" in their mind and that means stay away from the groups that remind them of their status. I agree with others, the older the male, the more at ease he is with his new lifestyle. Perhaps the best thing is that anyone who knows someone acting this way continue to be friends with them but don't push the eunuch label on them.

Quite an interesting question. Kristoff said that being a Eunuch does not make it impossible to be "male" and I agree and hope that this is correct. Without regular HRT my life becomes a living hell.

I think its also true that once you've gotten up on the operating table and your testicles fall in the pan your a "eunuch" no matter how much HRT you do. At least if we use the classic definition. I think there is a certain class system however. No Hormone Eunuchs versus Estrogen Eunuchs or Testosterone Eunuchs. It also seems to be that Gender (or is it sex) starts to become less easily defined. Do Balls make the man? Do silicone ones count? Does the actual hormones running in your bloodstream make the man or the man a woman or the woman a man? I think so...

I tend to think that what ever "fuel" you use be it Estrogen or Testosterone can define you as male or female. As to the idea that a third sex (an asexual castrate) being part of this? I agree.

As a transsexual, transition has different meanings. There are different levels of transition.There is a stark contrast between transitioning one's life, which means to come into the open and live one's life as the target gender, and transitioning one's body, which means to physically and permanenty alter one's body, such as hair removal or growth, breast growth or removal, and gender reassignment surgery. One can detransition from one, but not so much the other.

Once one has their breasts, testicles, penis, ovaries, uterus or facial hair removed, it does not come back. One can not detransition from these transitions. So what we are really talking about is detransitioning from how one lives their life.

While "eunuchism" can be considered a lifestyle, it can also be considered a gender. So I believe it's important to know what it is we are talking about when we talk about detransitioning. In my opinion, an eunuch is a person that has had their testicles or their testicles and penis removed AND do not take male or female hormones to compensate.

Now, in this regard I know transsexuals that are in fact actually eunuchs. While they may continue to live their lives in female roles, they no longer have testicles or a penis and have stopped taking female or male hormones. They are still socially transitioned into their gender, they are no longer physically transitioned into their gender.

So for me, I am not so sure the term detransition really applies to eunuchs. I guess for those who live the "eunuch lifestyle", whatever that may be, one could no longer identify as an eunuch. However, to really detransition they would need to also take testosterone.

Now this is where it gets tricky. My experience here has taught me that many people who have had their testicles removed but are taking testosterone to replace the lost hormones, still identify as eunuchs. So if the simple act of not having testicles makes one a eunuch, then one could not detransition by simply taking hormones and not telling people they have no testicles.

I guess I need to have someone take me to school on this issue because I am somewhat confused.

Elizabeth

Seems to me , that no matter the disposition of HRT, if it ain't got balls its a eunuch. The lable is uncomfortable to some, but historically and factually , a male that has been castrated is a eunuch.

For this eunuch , the idea of not using HRT, and all the charming side effects that can cause is simply not an option. Of the eunuchs I have personally known, only one has never had HRT, and he was born without testicles. That descision to avoid HRT is one that he is quite happy with , although his own physiology creates some sexual desire, and he is occasionally capable of erection.

All the others I know , have tried a period without HRT, and found the side effects to be unbearable. Seems that the norm for that is around 6 months.

I know there are some here who truly enjoy their testosterone deprived state, and I suppose if your real desire is total asexuality that is fine, and certainly not for me to criticize, but the vast majority seem to prefer HRT, even if in small doses.

There are many reasons to be a eunuch, and therefore many ways to live after it occurs.

As to the age thing, I used to be quite friendly with a guy who was voluntarily castrated to please a partner. At the time he was really into the idea, and stayed that way for several years. Once the relationship was over, he regretted doing it for a time. It was much more about acceptance from new partners than any personal feeling, and he soon learned that most didn't really care if he had balls or not.

There is a certain stigma that seems attached to eunuchs that in many cases is totally unfounded. When I was castrated I was totally honest with all that I know, and to date no one has reacted in a negative way, I am "out" as a eunuch, and no one ever even mentions it. Its just a fact of life.

So, once a eunuch always a eunuch, its just a matter of personal preference if you do the HRT thing or not ......

Raymar

What about women who have their ovaries removed ?

Is there a term for female eunuch?

If you loose your sex hormone producing organs (or never had any) is that alone what classifies you as a eunuch?

Or do you just need to loose the hormone and not the organ to be classified as a eunuch?

If the only factor is a very low hormone level which causes one to loose their sex drive and/or create loss of hormone negative health factors, then There are a lot of men and women who are naturally have such a low hormone level, not by choice or desire, that they could technically be called eunuch.

It just seems there needs to be better terminology for anyone who has no sex organs vs anyone who has sex organs but has a hormone level that is so low that they are, for lack of a better term: Virtual Eunuchs.

I think we need to distinguish between three separate things that seem to be tied up in the original question.

One is the case of people who were castrated for whatever reason, but don't identify themselves as anything other than 'men who happen to have no balls'. In this case there's no real 'transition' involved in the sense that they don't consider being a eunuch to be an essential part of their identify. (Obviously there's a physical transition, but not a social one.)

The second scenario is where a person has been castrated as part of what they view as a transition into a new sort of identity, or to change their body such that it conforms to their psychological sense of (gender/sex) identity. Inevitably a certain number of people who undergo this will find that the new identity doesn't suit them as well as the one they transitioned from did, and so return, physically (HRT) and/or socially, to their origin sex/gender designation. To these people I think it is appropriate to apply the term 'detransitioning', as they are in fact retracing the path they came, to the extent that that's physically or socially possible. (Others might go on to transition to some other identity.)

The third scenario would be people who have been castrated and identify themselves as eunuchs, but who just don't participate in the Eunuch Archive or similar communities because their friendships are build around other social identities and interests. They might temporarily post here prior to and while they're transitioning, but afterwards drift away because they're not as interested or invested in their eunuch identity than they are in, say, chess or fishing or baseball. These people are still eunuchs, they just don't participate in our community for the same reasons that post-op transsexuals might not continue to participate in similar trans communities: their primary associations with people are just based on other identities or interests, or on different sites of identification, such as their local communities.

There are those like myself who feel like eunuchs because of low testostrone (hypogonalism) and still are intact.

ghostautumn (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:10 pm I think we need to distinguish between three separate things that seem to be tied up in the original question.

One is the case of people who were castrated for whatever reason, but don't identify themselves as anything other than 'men who happen to have no balls'....

The second scenario is where a person has been castrated as part of what they view as a transition into a new sort of identity, or to change their body such that it conforms to their psychological sense of (gender/sex) identity......

The third scenario would be people who have been castrated and identify themselves as eunuchs, but who just don't participate in the Eunuch Archive or similar communities because their friendships are build around other social identities and interests.....

I find this discussion extremely interesting. We just to remember that they're all social constructs. There was certainly a time in the past when a eunuch was anyone who'd had their balls - often their entire package - cut off. Those without balls or external genitalia were also without male androgens (testosterone). There were no dependable artificial hormones 'til Shering's (pharmaceutical company in Berlin) Afolf Butenandt and Ciba's (pharmceutical company in Zurich) Leopold Ruzicka successfully synthesized and began mass-producing artificial equivalents in the late 1930s - and for which they deservedly received the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1939. Since then it's been possible to retain complete masculinity w/o testicles.

In the case of this eunuch, I can say I was initially shocked when I was advised by a senior urologist at a major US teaching hospital at age 24 that I should consider having my testicles amputated. He advised that I had a congenital defect (almost non-existent cords connecting my testicles to my body), the only real remedy for which was removal. However, he also advised at the same time that all was not lost, as artificial hormones would allow me to retain my masculinity. The only major downside to the recommended bilateral orchiectomy procedure would be sterility. After thinking about it, I almost went back to him a week later for the procedure. However, I also took to heart his advice to hang on to my testicles as long as I was able to cope with the discomfort. I had them removed only after I had sired a son. While I always knew it was optional, I never really considered going without hormones. I'm thus a physical eunuch in that I've had my testicles removed, but not a eunuch in the sense I'm still totally male, but ballless.

In terms of social constructs, I think many of us know that gender itself is a social construct. The South African female athlete that was allowed to keep her gold medal in running despite being found to be a hermaphrodite probably has more testosterone than I ever had or have now. I'm a male for 2 reasons: 1) I possess a penis with which I was born; and 2) I ingest male androgens.

The title "eunuch" was a title given to castrated men. It's simply a title denoting that certain men no longer have testicles and in some cases, no penises either. So you can look at yourself as being male, but because you're castrated, you're called a eunuch to distinguish you from intact males. Some eunuchs might consider themselves a third sex or gender, others won't, it depends on what you like. I'm a castrated male and I like the word eunuch, but I'm not transgendered or transsexual, in my opinion. I would guess that a psychiatrist might beg to differ with my assumption, but I have no desire to be female. I've even trained my wife to call me her eunuch, though she doesn't do it public, just behind closed doors. I dote on her a lot.

I think the comment about transexuals is a good example for many of us who are not seeking to be defined as a Eunuch instead of just being whoever / whatever we are.

Many Transexuals seek to be "Female" or "Male" not to be in "Transition" There are people who are very proud they were able to do transition and are happy to be defined as Transexual. But I respect those that say "I'm a woman / man" now.

For Eunuchs its kind of a one way street because as someone else said once we have our testicles removed thats 'it' we are Eunuchs. But this really is just a social term thing not a lot more in my opinion. I say that because who ever brought up women who have had their ovaries removed is 100% correct. No one goes around calling them Eunuchs or says they were Castrated. In fact not very much is thought or said of this and the procedure is not even thought of as a really big deal. Why? That question I think lends itself to the male centered society we live in.

Which might be why I don't care a lot for either of these terms. Castration is for farm animals. Eunuchs are (In my thinking) more clearly defined along the lines of the Chinese Eunuchs from long ago or Harem Guards. Both being rather negative to my thinking.

I am only a chemical eunuch at this point, but i still consider my self to be male. And after going forward to the next step I will still consider myself to be male. The lack of a body part qualifies me as an eunuch, just as much as if I was missing a limb I would be an amputee. I dont believe that because one is by default an eunuch he is automatically another gender.

...

mrt (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:38 pm I tend to think that what ever "fuel" you use be it Estrogen or Testosterone can define you as male or female. As to the idea that a third sex (an asexual castrate) being part of this? I agree.

Not only this. I think that most crucial factor here is psycho-social identity- i.e. how one identifies themselves and how one strives to appear in the eyes of others.

I'd like to add to what MRT said

nullorchis (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:23 pm about women who have their ovaries removed.

I'm not sure when doctors started removing ovaries, probably not until the last 100 years, though I'm not sure. However, men have been castrated for centuries, which is how the term "eunuch" was formed.

It was noticed that castrated men no longer demonstrated outward sexual behavior and if they were lucky enough to keep their penises, it was noticed that they no longer got erect. Hence, eunuchs were sexually non-functioning men and were employed because of their status. I believe that's how the term "eunuch" was formed. It was used to differentiate the functioning male from the non-functioning male. Eunuchs were highly sought after to protect harems and even kings. If there weren't enough eunuchs to do the job, more were made. Since they couldn't perform sexually, but were still fairly strong, they protected the harem.

Castrating women on the hand, was unheard of until the last 100-175 years. I would guess that most people in the past 5-6 centuries never even knew that women had testicle like organs up in their bodies. So that's why there's no stigma or label for castrated women. It's a recent surgical procedure for women and if they're castrated, it's considered menopausal. That's because most women who have hysterectomies have them after 45 years of age. Also, castrated women don't exhibit such a drastic loss of sexuality since their sexuality isn't very high to begin with, at least in a lot of women. It's also true that outwardly there's nothing showing that reflects their lack of ovaries. That's my two cents on the subject.