EA Forums

I think there are a number of us who are interested in bodybuilding but doing so without our nuts. Anyone out there trying to castrate themselves using large doses of test which will cause testituclar atrophy. I wonder if the atrophy could be taken to the point that our balls are actually finally absorbed by our body. Interested in all levels of experience.

Testosterone also destroys your liver. It might be a contest between your testicles and your liver.

Dave (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:15 pm Testosterone also destroys your liver.

Not generally. Oral testosterone tends to have that effect. Not transdermals or injectables. Of course, not mega doses either.

I'm shooting, not oral, about 750 to 900 mg per week. Yea my liver is going to take its toll but what price perversion. LOL

twineagles (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:19 pm I'm shooting, not oral, about 750 to 900 mg per week. Yea my liver is going to take its toll but what price perversion. LOL

Death or liver failure and transplant, asuming you can get one after intentional self-abuse.

The average dose for men who need T is 100mg per week. That is enough to shut down the testicles as any exogenous hormones tell the body to quit making it. Taking excessive amounts will just convert to Estrogen and it doesn't sound like the kind of body you are trying to build.

The term testicle atrophy with respect to steroid use is misleading -- it is just a temporary shrinkage of the testicles when they are not needed because exogenous testosterone is already in your body. It does not damage your testicles, or if it does it would require true pro bodybuilding levels of roids, meaning about $3k per month, and even then I've never seen literature that says that that causes castration due to permanent testicle damage.

Also, this desire doesn't make that much sense except purely in a self-harm manner -- if you want to be castrated then you usually don't like what testosterone does, so taking extra as an objective doesn't make sense. There are certainly guys who are already castrated who take some HRT, but that is because testosterone has many beneficial effects (muscle mass, mood equalizing, bone density, etc.) but those people probably would prefer if they didn't have to take HRT.

So I don't really don't understand your goal, and also question whether it is a practical goal whatever your motivations are.

twineagles (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:19 pm I'm shooting, not oral, about 750 to 900 mg per week. Yea my liver is going to take its toll but what price perversion. LOL

I hope you enjoy a shortened life span since you're taking this seemingly without the advice of a physician and at about 8 to 12 times the amount needed to maintain male characteristics in the absence of testicles.

You may get what you want in the short term, but I hope you enjoy the unpleasant side effects of doing this now once this part of your life is over.

To the OP,

Large doses of testosterone, will NOT castrate you. It will tear up your liver, and make you a rather unpleasant person to be around, and it MIGHT shrink your testicles some, but is all that worth it ?

Steroids are slightly different than just testosterone, and work on the system a bit differently. They too can damage the liver.

Your goals seem to me to be very mixed. If you desire to not have balls from an esthetic standpoint, ok, well thats one thing, if you desire to build up and bulk up , well thats another. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am a eunuch using testosterone, and trust me, the usual dose will NOT turn you into "HeMan ". It will maintain your muscle mass, keep away hot flashes, and provide you with a libido , that can sometimes be a bit over the top.

Seek out the advice of a medical professional who has dealt with "lifters" and ask honest questions. Those who work with body builders know that their patients are doing illegal things with testosterone and steriods. They can best advise you on what is safe, and what is risky behavior.

If you desire to atrophy the testicles is because you wish to lose them , then look into having them removed, not trying to destroy them.

Raymar

750 mg sounds excessive. I am on 2.5 daily of AndroGel. That puts it on the low side of normal for a guy my age according to my Dr. Actually I feel good on 1.25 daily. But, I'll go back to the 2.5 daily about 30 days before my next blood work appointment. Since my Insurance pays for my HRT, I don't worry about using a little or a lot. But No way, Jose, on the megadoses. The 5 gm dose was more than I wanted. Made me feel like a 15 year old sex-drive wise.

And since I'll be 73 in a couple of days, I don't need the hormones raging through me.

twineagles (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:50 pm I think there are a number of us who are interested in bodybuilding but doing so without our nuts. Anyone out there trying to castrate themselves using large doses of test which will cause testituclar atrophy. I wonder if the atrophy could be taken to the point that our balls are actually finally absorbed by our body. Interested in all levels of experience.

Children who start taking Roids for body building around puberty and take them for years, their testicles never develop and atrophy. Adults taking Roids and Testosterone it will take years before the testicle will not recover, now fertility is a different maybe as little as 6 months and you may be infertile. I would not use it a birth control as there are too many variables.

_g

What Dave and Losethem said.

I am a competitive strength athlete, and plan on using Test post-castration. I am hoping this will prevent losing any strength or muscle mass. Maybe it could even help me gain more since my natural test is on the low-end of the scale.

I have considered just staying on-cycle for a long period of time to cause the atrophy, but I'd rather be without them at all as they cause me great discomfort and pain. Trying to find a local Urologist to do the procedure, otherwise some travel is in my near future.

I just have to comment that I find it both ironic and a bit obnoxious how the instant someone brings up testosterone on this forum, multiple people jump in and *immediately* start talking about liver toxicity.

It's well known that cyproterone (aka Androcur) can be *extremely* hard on the liver, but I've hardly ever seen folks grumpily jumping at those who've posted about their interest in using that substance (or Provera, or countless other medications, some of which are clearly being used/mixed/experimented with at maximum dosages). Likewise, there are plenty of risks associated with using estrogen (to say nothing of lifelong risks of breast cancer once one is feminized), but I don't see anyone harassing the transgendered about their choice in hormones.

This is supposed to be a gathering place for open-minded people to discuss castration issues and interests. I understand that some of the folks here hate testosterone and couldn't care less about having objective discussions, but I had to call a spade a spade. Seriously people!

italmusclebtm (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:48 am I just have to comment that I find it both ironic and a bit obnoxious how the instant someone brings up testosterone on this forum, multiple people jump in and *immediately* start talking about liver toxicity.

It's well known that cyproterone (aka Androcur) can be *extremely* hard on the liver, but I've hardly ever seen folks grumpily jumping at those who've posted about their interest in using that substance (or Provera, or countless other medications, some of which are clearly being used/mixed/experimented with at maximum dosages). Likewise, there are plenty of risks associated with using estrogen (to say nothing of lifelong risks of breast cancer once one is feminized), but I don't see anyone harassing the transgendered about their choice in hormones.

This is supposed to be a gathering place for open-minded people to discuss castration issues and interests. I understand that some of the folks here hate testosterone and couldn't care less about having objective discussions, but I had to call a spade a spade. Seriously people!

Before you start telling the rest of us how intolerant we are and that we're not allowing objective discussions, you need to go back and read the thread and figure out why we are making these comments. Here is what TwinEagles posted back there:

twineagles (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:19 pm I'm shooting, not oral, about 750 to 900 mg per week. Yea my liver is going to take its toll but what price perversion. LOL

He's a F-ing idiot for injecting 750 - 900mg per week into his body. He is going to slowly *kill* himself doing this, or at least need a liver transplant. He is injecting testosterone at a rate nearly 10 to 12 times what his body actually requires.

You make the statement that androcur is toxic as well. Yes, it is. But I've never seen anyone come on here and boast about taking *mega* doses of it. TwinEagles stated in this thread that he is taking doses in an amount widely recognizable as abusing testosterone. He's going to end up killing himself (albeit slowly) if he continues. All we're doing is warning him about it.

If you guys want to kill yourselves with mega doses of testosterone outside of a doctors supervision, be my guest. Just don't expect me or any of the others you're calling out here to be supportive of your actions. Also, don't expect us to pay for your liver transplant when you need one.

--LT

Losethem (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:23 am He's a F-ing idiot for injecting 750 - 900mg per week into his body. He is going to slowly *kill* himself doing this, or at least need a liver transplant. He is injecting testosterone at a rate nearly 10 to 12 times what his body actually requires.

Well, injecting testosterone is not very liver toxic. I don't think it is really processed by the liver when injected. Just guessing but taking 10 times the amount of normal test by injection is probably about the same as taking 1 times the amount orally.

Steroid abuse does cause other issues, like cholesterol, enlarged heart, and high blood pressure being the three most dangerous one.

I've never heard of a pro bodybuilder having trouble with their liver, except those that are also using a lot of orals. Almost all that use heavy injectables also stack some others such as Anavar orals, so it is difficult to really separate out the effects when you hear about a bodybuilder with liver problems.

If you stay below abuse levels, and stick to therapeutic levels of test injection there is no know health effect at all except acceleration (not caus though) of some cancers.

He hasn't, at least from what I have seen, made any remarks about the duration he's planning on continuing that dosage. And I have no idea how 750-900mg/week constitutes

Losethem (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:23 am 10 to 12 times what his body actually requires.

I know three people (NON bodybuilders) who are on doctor prescribed testosterone, and none of them are on that small a dose of testosterone. If you are suggesting 75mg/wk is enough testosterone to meet the body's requirements, I would be interested in reading the resources you are reading, so please post some links. That MIGHT be enough to prevent bone loss, but it sure wouldn't do much else.

Lastly, the "F-ing idiot" comment is EXACTLY why I posted. I am NOT suggesting that 750-900mg/week is a good idea. I am saying we can do without the needless attitude and grumpiness. If you disagree with what he's doing, go post in another thread... or at least show some damned manners. Plenty of other people expressed countering views without being rude.

Losethem (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:23 am He's a F-ing idiot for injecting 750 - 900mg per week into his body. He is going to slowly *kill* himself doing this, or at least need a liver transplant. He is injecting testosterone at a rate nearly 10 to 12 times what his body actually requires.

Trying to deny my true feminine self, I began body building and developed quite a physic with the help of some roids. However, being true to myself I could no longer continue in male form and began female HRT, eventually I found a way to get castrated. Now being castrated and continuing with my HRT I find myself working out again and to my surprise I am losing body fat percentages and really like this cut feminine body I'm in now all without a drop of testosterone in me

italmusclebtm (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:27 pm Lastly, the "F-ing idiot" comment is EXACTLY why I posted. I am NOT suggesting that 750-900mg/week is a good idea. I am saying we can do without the needless attitude and grumpiness. If you disagree with what he's doing, go post in another thread... or at least show some damned manners. Plenty of other people expressed countering views without being rude.

When someone is being an f-ing idiot because of what they are doing, I'm going to point it out to them. There is NO DOCTOR that should be prescribing 750-900mg per week. This is the thread in which they are being an idiot, so therefore this is the place to discuss it.

You're ready to challenge me on my statements by making me prove it to you. Since you're so ready to jump on that bandwagon, why don't you provide me with proof that 750-900mg per week is appropriate?

I doubt you'll be able to. However, since you've asked me:

http://www.drugs.com/pro/testosterone-cypionate.html

And I quote directly:

For replacement in the hypogonadal male, 50-400 mg should be administered every two to four weeks.

That is 10mg to 100mg every week, since per week is the basis we're using. The best case scenario on the numbers you provide above is that the testosterone is being abused at nearly 8x the dose, and worst case is 90x. In either case you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

You've not given me proof that you have the education or background to support your claims. I've actually gone to school to learn this stuff. All I've seen thus far is your locker room observations with your other body building friends about what you can and can't do, and that's hardly scientific, lab tested, or medically reviewed to ensure your long term health.

I think you've let your vanity cloud your judgement on what is an appropriate amount of testosterone to be injecting.

As I stated before, if you want to inject that amount and slowly kill yourself

Losethem (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:23 am , be my guest. Just don't expect me or

the rest of society to pay for your medical care when this becomes an issue for you.

--LT

Losethem (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:23 am Before you start telling the rest of us how intolerant we are and that we're not allowing objective discussions, you need to go back and read the thread and figure out why we are making these comments. Here is what TwinEagles posted back there:

He's a F-ing idiot for injecting 750 - 900mg per week into his body. He is going to slowly *kill* himself doing this, or at least need a liver transplant. He is injecting testosterone at a rate nearly 10 to 12 times what his body actually requires.

You make the statement that androcur is toxic as well. Yes, it is. But I've never seen anyone come on here and boast about taking *mega* doses of it. TwinEagles stated in this thread that he is taking doses in an amount widely recognizable as abusing testosterone. He's going to end up killing himself (albeit slowly) if he continues. All we're doing is warning him about it.

If you guys want to kill yourselves with mega doses of testosterone outside of a doctors supervision, be my guest. Just don't expect me or any of the others you're calling out here to be supportive of your actions. Also, don't expect us to pay for your liver transplant when you need one.

--LT

I am also a body builder and I am currently on 1 gram of test a week (2.5cc @ 400 mg/cc). There is no evidence that injectable test is dangerous, although I would run from the orals. I have been cycling for 3 years now and I get the liver enzymes checked and each time they are fine. The other issue is with cholesterol, and mine is always less than 200. My doctor is well aware of what I am doing and deals with it (frowning, but not warning me of imminent death). As far as the side effects, I have never really had much...little to no ball shrinkage, never acne, and only rarely had roid rage (once), although I am sure that I am sterile at the moment. While the injectables are safe, the orals will cause liver failure, especially oral trenbolene, if used long enough. Its hysterical disinformation like this that makes those of us who juice outlaws when in reality we are your neighbors, friends, or even relatives.

copecowboy (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:47 am I am also a body builder and I am currently on 1 gram of test a week (2.5cc @ 400 mg/cc). There is no evidence that injectable test is dangerous, although I would run from the orals. I have been cycling for 3 years now and I get the liver enzymes checked and each time they are fine. The other issue is with cholesterol, and mine is always less than 200. My doctor is well aware of what I am doing and deals with it (frowning, but not warning me of imminent death). As far as the side effects, I have never really had much...little to no ball shrinkage, never acne, and only rarely had roid rage (once), although I am sure that I am sterile at the moment. While the injectables are safe, the orals will cause liver failure, especially oral trenbolene, if used long enough. Its hysterical disinformation like this that makes those of us who juice outlaws when in reality we are your neighbors, friends, or even relatives.

Yes, we wouldn't want to believe anyone that works in healthcare and sees the results of what you guys do. Nope, I don't have an informed opinion at all. Nope, I didn't receive any training or education about this. Nope I'm just a stupid idiot.

I'll just sit here on the sidelines and wait for you to walk through my door when all this steroid abuse finally causes you health issues. It's going to, but you guys just don't want to see it because of your vanity.

So let's take a look at some of the wonderful things you've got coming to you...

Hepatitis, suppression of blood clotting factors, hypernatremia, hyperkalemia, hypercalcemia, hyperphosphatemia, hypercholesterolemia, edema, acne, and sleep apena among the many things that will likely happen.

In plain English - hepatitis, you're gonna need a liver transplant if you keep abusing this. Lack of blood clotting factors, I sure hope you don't get into an accident where you bleed in any significant amount because you're gonna bleed out. High cholesterol, let's hope you don't have a heart attack because your heart has to work hard to get blood around the blockages. Oh, you'll probably also get muscle twitching and screwed up hearth rythms from the hyperkalemia so perhaps you'll need a pacemaker at some point, and I sure hope you don't go into renal failure from the hypercalcemia, when the calcium hardens in your urinary system or maybe it will manifest itself in your arms breaking in two when you lift those heavy weights due to the calcium being sucked out of your bones. Sleep apnea... I hope your body doesn't forget to breathe for you when you're sleeping, which will cause you to eventually die of suffocation.

Yup, you don't have any problems coming at all.

--LT

My body is a temple, I only put in it things that are natural like good food and lots of it, if you are putting steroids into your body you will pay the price, everybody who does, has.

I wish you the best because you will need all the luck you can get.

River

Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:02 am Yes, we wouldn't want to believe anyone that works in healthcare and sees the results of what you guys do. Nope, I don't have an informed opinion at all. Nope, I didn't receive any training or education about this. Nope I'm just a stupid idiot.

I'll just sit here on the sidelines and wait for you to walk through my door when all this steroid abuse finally causes you health issues. It's going to, but you guys just don't want to see it because of your vanity.

So let's take a look at some of the wonderful things you've got coming to you...

Hepatitis, suppression of blood clotting factors, hypernatremia, hyperkalemia, hypercalcemia, hyperphosphatemia, hypercholesterolemia, edema, acne, and sleep apena among the many things that will likely happen.

In plain English - hepatitis, you're gonna need a liver transplant if you keep abusing this. Lack of blood clotting factors, I sure hope you don't get into an accident where you bleed in any significant amount because you're gonna bleed out. High cholesterol, let's hope you don't have a heart attack because your heart has to work hard to get blood around the blockages. Oh, you'll probably also get muscle twitching and screwed up hearth rythms from the hyperkalemia so perhaps you'll need a pacemaker at some point, and I sure hope you don't go into renal failure from the hypercalcemia, when the calcium hardens in your urinary system or maybe it will manifest itself in your arms breaking in two when you lift those heavy weights due to the calcium being sucked out of your bones. Sleep apnea... I hope your body doesn't forget to breathe for you when you're sleeping, which will cause you to eventually die of suffocation.

Yup, you don't have any problems coming at all.

--LT

LT, my objection was that you mentioned liver problems when he indicated he was using injectibles. That is not an issue. There are the other issues, which I mentioned, and now you are mentioning, more related to cardiac health.

Secondly, we have to distinguish between use and abuse. The therapeutic dosages you cited are for replacement therapy, so let's call that a 1x dose. Professional body builders (in my definition abusers) take incredible doses. They will take several CCs per day, plus multiple orals, plus anti-estrogens, insulin, and clenbuterol, all at the same time. The dose being talked about here is not at the abuse level, but more at the "intermediate" level (see typical stacks at http://www.steroid.com/intermediatecycle1.php) and you'll note that those stacks usually include additional orals and an anti-androgen (all of which are admittedly harsh on the liver).

Then it depends on the actual steroid used as they have different potencies and half-lives. Some only last about 8 hours and need to be injected daily. Others stick around and can be done weekly.

Next, steroids are generally unfairly villianized. Mainly I think this is because (a) most people are thinking of the effects of major abuse, (b) most guys taking major amounts include orals.

Seriously though, how many steroid users have you ever heard of who have outright died from effects of the drugs? Every beefy guy in every local gym is taking them, every hollywood hunk actor, many politicians, many top businessman, are taking them regularly at significant (x5 normal test) levels. There really is no evidence that steroid use is particularly fatal, especially if done at moderate levels using only injectables. There are not guys dropping dead from this stuff any more than guys are dropping dead mowing their lawns.

Lastly, it is really easy to monitor all this stuff. My doctor does regular blood work, and if I'm taking an oral will immediately note elevated liver stress. Cholesterol and blood pressure are easy to monitor regularly. And heart size can be checked every couple years with a general health scan.

Also, your comment about "someone in the health field" is not really valid. Every nurse and most doctors I see are not epitomes of health themselves. Many of them are just as happy to prescribe other meds which are much worse than steroids. Cholesterol meds such as Crestor have worse side effects. Pain meds, sleeping pills, anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxants, etc. are just as dumb.

You also need to put things in perspective. Recreational stuff is also harmful to people's health. Drinking is just as stressful on the liver. Smoking is really dumb. Lots of people are abusing painkillers, ecstacy, even viagra. Overeating is really killing people. Basically, it is fine to be worried about one's health, but it is perfectly reasonable for people to compromise their health for something.

I'd rather be an in-shape, energetic, athletic, successful person with chance of hypertension than being a fat smoker, or going about in a daze of pain killers and sleeping pills, or any number of standard modes that people seem happy to live in.

So your warning is good, but your delivery of that warning is over the top and uncalled for, and you're really mixing up the scare factors that have been sold to you. Looking at the particular case presented -- a guy taking moderate doses of injectables -- I'm very confident you will not find much medical literature showing that it is any worse than eating a cheeseburger and couple beers and popping an Ibuprofen (which is standard way of life for most Americans).

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:43 pm LT, my objection was that you mentioned liver problems when he indicated he was using injectibles. That is not an issue. There are the other issues, which I mentioned, and now you are mentioning, more related to cardiac health.

Also, your comment about "someone in the health field" is not really valid. Every nurse and most doctors I see are not epitomes of health themselves. Many of them are just as happy to prescribe other meds which are much worse than steroids. Cholesterol meds such as Crestor have worse side effects. Pain meds, sleeping pills, anti-inflammatories, muscle relaxants, etc. are just as dumb.

Sorry, until I have compelling evidence that you are medically educated, I'm going to disagree. The only people I've seen in here supporting those higher levels at 750-900mg per week are those SAME people who are abusing the steroids.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't buy your argument.

Since I was the one that was challenged to show why this high dose was wrong or against medical advice, I went and looked it up (in books, not online) and have that backing up what I said.

These excessive amounts of testosterone will cause hepatoxicity (that's the liver folks) which means that these drugs are ruining the liver if taken in excessive amounts.

For the record excessive amounts is anything that is above and beyond the levels stated on the label of the drug, and the levels that have been stated in this thread are significantly above what the label says is to be used. It also doesn't matter which form of the drug you're using. The references I looked in did not make *any* distinction between oral, bucoccal, injected, trandermal, or other forms of the drug. They are all listed on the same warning lists.

Until you can actually cite and show me where the scientific community is supporting your claims that what I'm saying are not true, then I have to dismiss what you're saying. For the record, anything you're citing from steroid.com (the link you provided above) is from the community of people profiting on the abuse and illegal use of steroids. When I went to the link you supplied, the first thing that showed up on the page was an advertisement for a site selling oral steroids without a prescription. Hardly a ringing endorsement for convincing anyone that this is a medically safe thing to be doing.

I was educated in actual schools and in hospitals about this stuff. The only education I'm seeing from those of you that are saying I'm wrong seems to have been obtained in a locker room.

These people that are using testosterone in the amounts mentioned *will* have problems, regardless of route of administration.

PERIOD.

--LT

Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:49 pm Sorry, until I have compelling evidence that you are medically educated, I'm going to disagree. The only people I've seen in here supporting those higher levels at 750-900mg per week are those SAME people who are abusing the steroids.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't buy your argument.

Since I was the one that was challenged to show why this high dose was wrong or against medical advice, I went and looked it up (in books, not online) and have that backing up what I said.

These excessive amounts of testosterone will cause hepatoxicity (that's the liver folks) which means that these drugs are ruining the liver if taken in excessive amounts.

For the record excessive amounts is anything that is above and beyond the levels stated on the label of the drug, and the levels that have been stated in this thread are significantly above what the label says is to be used. It also doesn't matter which form of the drug you're using. The references I looked in did not make *any* distinction between oral, bucoccal, injected, trandermal, or other forms of the drug. They are all listed on the same warning lists.

Until you can actually cite and show me where the scientific community is supporting your claims that what I'm saying are not true, then I have to dismiss what you're saying. For the record, anything you're citing from steroid.com (the link you provided above) is from the community of people profiting on the abuse and illegal use of steroids. When I went to the link you supplied, the first thing that showed up on the page was an advertisement for a site selling oral steroids without a prescription. Hardly a ringing endorsement for convincing anyone that this is a medically safe thing to be doing.

I was educated in actual schools and in hospitals about this stuff. The only education I'm seeing from those of you that are saying I'm wrong seems to have been obtained in a locker room.

These people that are using testosterone in the amounts mentioned *will* have problems, regardless of route of administration.

PERIOD.

--LT

I am not a medical professional of any kind, but I have cooked for the Catholic Community Services' residential drug and alcohol program for thirteen years now so I am familiar with those who abuse drugs of all kinds.

The point is that despite the absolute statement in your last sentence, things are not quite so cut and dried in the real world. With all drugs as with sex hormones "your mileage may vary." We all know the long terms effects of alcohol abuse, but I have a fan club of elderly Native-American women who have been abusing alcohol at ridiculous levels for well over fifty years and are still reinforcing negative ethnic stereotypes. One of them has a granddaughter who is also in the program and that granddaughter has grown children of her own. I watched another resident with a genius level IQ drink himself to death of liver failure at the age of 40. But everyone seems to thank that they themselves will escape the effects of their usage.

That these steroid websites exist means there are sizable groups of people using them at these dosages. These drugs are too new to know exactly how many will develop the bad side effects. We are very bad at delayed gratification, but we are very good at ignoring delayed ill effects.

Transward