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Quote by Allison from the Personal fantasies board...

People have also suggested that I change my avatar. I guess that they have a problem with GOD. You know, "God loves them too!

I am wondering, how many have a "beef" (nothing HINDU, mind you) with GOD that they are willing to share and discuss with the rest of us?

I will start out...

Me, my problem is this.

I feel like I have been taken out in the country or perhaps a desert in a car and then left. I mean, this world SUCKS and I didn't ask to be left here.

So tell me, how do the rest of you feel?

A-1

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2002 11:40 am Quote by Allison from the Personal fantasies board...

I am wondering, how many have a "beef" (nothing HINDU, mind you) with GOD that they are willing to share and discuss with the rest of us?

I will start out...

Me, my problem is this.

I feel like I have been taken out in the country or perhaps a desert in a car and then left. I mean, this world SUCKS and I didn't ask to be left here.

So tell me, how do the rest of you feel?

A-1

[/B]

For me, my real issue is not what or who God is, but what a few people insist that others believe what he or she is.

During my childhood I perceived that there was a benevolent God who mostly watched over everyone and occasionally made minor changes in our world for our happiness. I wasn't religious at all and felt that God only cared about how we treated each other rather than whether or not we had any formal religion.

But my mother, the Catholic schools, churches, and certain peers taught that I had to believe a certain way, and that this God would turn cruel if I didn't do what they claimed was his bidding. That included denying myself and what I really was during my late teens to mid 20s.

Those were my personal Dark Ages. Now I feel that I am well into my own personal Renaissance as I rediscover my real self and my potential to be all that I really am.

But now I have all kinds of feelings and memories from those dark religious days that I wish I could forget. I don't have an issue with the Christian God simply because I no longer believe in him. I find that most Christians mind their own business and keep their beliefs to themselves, but there are a few who try to shove their beliefs back in my face. Unfortunately, one of those people is my own mother. The real problem is not what religion my mom is, but what she thinks I ought to be.

I do not accept the Christian label for myself, because I don't believe in that. But that doesn't mean I should attack those who are Christians. Many of my TG/TS sisters manage to reconcile their faith with their gender, and remain Christian in their new found life. What I need is to return to the beliefs I had in my early childhood.

I strive to be indifferent to Christianity and all religion in general, becuse most Christians never bother me. People will always have varying beliefs and perceptions on God, so the real question is can people respect when others believe differently?

I don't have a problem with God, I have a problem with a few people who insist I believe what they believe.

Sherry (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:04 am I don't have a problem with God, I have a problem with a few people who insist I believe what they believe.

Amen!

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2002 11:40 am So tell me, how do the rest of you feel?

I more or less became an atheist due to reading Isaac Asimov from the time I learned to read at age 5. I suppose my main problem would be people who desire to proslytize me. I also have problems every now and then at my AA meetings. Myself, I strive for LIVE AND LET LIVE.

What was it that Pharoah's first born son did (or any of the first born in Egypt) that deserved death? When Moses was trying to free the israelites god sent the angel of death to slay all the first born in Egypt as a "sign" to Pharaoh. Its not like they little children could have done anything to save themselves. "Uh.....mom......dad? I um......really don't want to die.....so could you please not do anything to anger god tonight.....please?

Tally up the score in the bible of how many people and animals that god or his people killed compared to how many Satan or his people killed and then tell ME who is evil?

For a kind, loving god he sure is violent and eager to kill foolish, weak little humans and animals but not once do you ever see in the bible where he kills an evil demon.........nope he just "casts" them out and thats the end of it!

How much trouble would you get into today if you went down to the zoo and killed (if you could) a lion with your bare hands? Or grabbed a jawbone of a donkey and killed a thousand people with it?

King david numbered the people.......which for some (fucked up the ass) reason was a sin. So god punishes him by killing a certain number of the people...... .........How would you like to die.....or watch your first child die because president Bush does something that god doesn't like and god decides to kill YOU to teach Bush a lesson??

What a bunch of SHIT!!!!!

which is the perfect word to describe god in MY "Opinion"........SHIT!

Sherry (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:04 am For me, my real issue is not what or who God is, but what a few people insist that others believe what he or she is.

Unfortunately...it almost always comes down to a child like "My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend"

I am quite happy and willing to accept a person's belief in anything they want..as long as it doesn't hurt anyone...but it can become a little annoying when someone goes into a hard sell.

Maybe I'm different. when I was a kid, and I discovered that a certain red-suited man wasn't real, I pretty much immediately asked my mother if God was, too. She couldn't answer that one.

LonePanther88 (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2002 10:54 pm How much trouble would you get into today if you went down to the zoo and killed (if you could) a lion with your bare hands?

Or grabbed a jawbone of a donkey and killed a thousand people with it?

Well, The Taliban tried to kill that lion in the zoo in Kabul...

and, if you want to rip the jawbone off of an ass maybe somebody can find that binLauden guy...

...and the Al-quada...they need to see the results of Osama's jaw being flapped while it's NOT attached...

just a few thoughts...

What LonePanther88 says sounds curiously like some recent world events.

I really don't have a lot of anger...but...

To me God is a comedian playing to an audience who is afraid to laugh...

If people would just quit trying to be too righteous and just try to be nice to each other a lot of things would fall into place.

But NO! We all have to be manipulating, controlling, power hungry idiots. Where does it get us?

God should have cast the Earth into the Sun right after they crucified Christ. It's what we had coming, the lot of us...

A-1

I haven't posted for a while, but I had to jump into this.

I am not a church-goer or a Native American, but I have found that my own beliefs closely parallel the Native American beliefs. I prefer "Great Spirit" to "God". He (she) exists. I have no doubt. I had a great deal of spiritual help in the form of visions and real physical phenomena during my hormonal crash and the ensuing illness that happened last year. I asked for help and I got it. (I'm still getting it.) All you have to do is ask (and really mean it.) The Great Spirit always give us what we need (not always what we want.) But you have to ask. "We have not because we ask not."

Yes, a lot of things in this world suck. We have been given the free will to screw things up as much as we want. But there is good in the world and good people of any religion, or of no religion at all. I think some of us need to get out and "smell the roses" once in a while.

JayBee

My personal feelings on religion are that I believe in a god, but I don't follow the "scripted" organized religions in the world. They are the cause of probably 99.99% of the problems our planet faces in the way of war and conflict.

Not to mention that most of them tell me I am wrong for being who I am (gay). Why would I want to put up with that?

So until the organized religions of the world stop using their beliefs to rearrange thier prejudices and discriminatory practices, they can mind their own F***ing business. Nothing makes me angrier than a person telling me they can help make me something I have no desire or feeling I need to be.

Just my .02 worth.

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2002 11:40 am Me, my problem is this.

I feel like I have been taken out in the country or perhaps a desert in a car and then left. I mean, this world SUCKS and I didn't ask to be left here.

So tell me, how do the rest of you feel?

A-1

[/B]

**************************************************

Hi All,

A problem with God?

To understand God forget for the moment the Bible, the Koran and any other written revelation. Instead contemplate the works of God. Consider the infinity of the universe, the countless number of galaxies within it. The vast number of stars within each galaxy and attached to those stars may be planets and moons.

Then consider the laws of science that describe the behaviour of bodies in space: Newton, Kepler, Einstein plus all the other laws of chemistry and physics that describe what goes on in those bodies. Just have a shot at the math involved in all that.

At the other end of the scale we have the atom, infinitesimally small yet made up of protons, neutrons and electrons which are themselves made up of quarks which in turn are electromagnetic waves or quanta of energy.

On our own tiny, insignificant planet we have a superabundance of life to fill every ecological niche on the planet. Each form of life is a miracle of design and production far beyond our own ability to create. And on top of that heap of life we have Homo Sapiens, ourselves, with our own unique miracle: the human brain. It's an electrochemical system of such infinite genius and complexity that we can only regard it with awe and with very little understanding.

And that is just our own known physical universe. Scientists are talking of parallel universes and other wonders that are mind blowing in concept.

All that creation we attribute to God, or Allah or Jahweh. A supreme being. It makes sense to me to do so. It is possible that God simply is creation but for me, the more I think about it, there simply has to be an intelligence behind it all. And a purpose.

To get a better idea of the nature of God, take your pet cat, sit him comfortably on your lap and them imagine you could download everything that you know into the cat's brain. You want to give the cat all your language skills, all your years of education, share all your memories with him.

Stop there. You've already blown the poor cat's mind. His brain cannot deal with all that. Likewise how can we ever hope to understand the whole of creation?

It is possible that parts of the Bible contain revelations from God but we know that much of the old testament is simply Rabbinical propaganda or Jewish ancient history. We know that the new testament was written decades, if not centuries after the events it purports to describe. In any case the original manuscripts were heavily edited by the early bishops to correspond with church dogma after the church was established enough to have political influence.

In any case all religions and all churches are far more concerned with controlling people's behaviour and promoting their own self-interest than they are with understanding God. Therefore all churches that have permanent full time priests or clerics should be regarded with suspicion.

Now we come right down to ourselves and our own tiny part in the great scheme of creation. For me the only way to make sense of it all is to see our own lifetimes in our physical bodies as some kind of test or period of growth for the soul. That would explain all the horrible things that can and do happen to people.

What is the test for? Maybe it is Nirvanah or oneness with God. That we don't know. Probably if we did know it would blow our minds.

Having finished the test I don't think for one moment that we sit on our angelic butts and play the harp for all eternity. Neither do we burn in hell either. More likely we go on to another test or another growth experience.

Just an anecdote to finish. A brilliant mathematician of my acquaintance was doing a Master's Degree in Cosmology. He told me that it was fine all the time you stuck to the math and the equations but from time to time he would try to get his mind around what the whole thing really meant. He felt he was getting close to an understanding when suddenly he really understood everything in the field of cosmology he was working on. It was so awesome that he had to immediately back off from it. He told me that it was as if, for the briefest instant, he had gazed upon the face of God. That guy quit his degree and now lives in a cottage in a forest in Africa.

Does any of this make any sense?

Regards

Kortpeel

Summer Night

Now that, more nearest even your fate

and mine (or any truth beyond preceive)

Quivers this miracle of summer nights

Her trillion secrets touchably alive

While all mysteries which I or you

(blinded by merely things beliveable)

Could only fancy we should never know

Are unimaginably ours to feel-

How should some world (we marvel) doubt,

for just

Sweet terrifying the particular

Moment it takes one very falling most

(There! did you see it?) star to disappear,

That hugest whole creation maybe less

Incalcuable than a single kiss.

Master Waddie

I go along with all of you and your reasons, even an atheist believes in something,

I am not sure there is a god, at least not the god we have been forced to believe. Maybe its gods, after all if we are to believe the bible only one of several books on the subject, god said there shall be no other gods before me. So there's a #1 god and lots of other gods? My head hurts.

Haven/Hell no such place, man made invention, used by shamans and priest to keep the population in line. If you look at the mythology of any culture, then start to compare them with each other, include Geneses in the bible you fine there all alike, I think it's a conspiracy, not sure who started it but today's religions sure are trying to keep it alive.

I have several bibles, I read them, yes they don't agree, words and meaning are changed from one to the other.

I don't care what your religion is or how you believe just leave me the hell alone, because I know for a fact I don't believe the way you do.

Life is like climbing a ladder, with each life we go up or down or stay. When you reach the top of the ladder then you can finally go to the next plain of existence. Me I am on step 13 and still not sure what I was suppose to do in this life so I will probably have to do the damn thing again.

This does not upset me much, as I believe I have been castrated in past lives and I get to do it again.

Riverwind the Happy Eunuch

Kortpeel says...

Kortpeel (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:24 pm Just an anecdote to finish. A brilliant mathematician of my acquaintance was doing a Master's Degree in Cosmology. He told me that it was fine all the time you stuck to the math and the equations but from time to time he would try to get his mind around what the whole thing really meant. He felt he was getting close to an understanding when suddenly he really understood everything in the field of cosmology he was working on. It was so awesome that he had to immediately back off from it. He told me that it was as if, for the briefest instant, he had gazed upon the face of God. That guy quit his degree and now lives in a cottage in a forest in Africa.

Does any of this make any sense?

YES.

A similar thing happened to me.

Probably, to Ted Kazenski (Sp?)

To make a long story short intellectual stress, especially in the areas of Physics and Mathematics, can do terrible things to brilliant minds. (Not that I possess one), I am so fried by 45 years of school, on one side of the desk or the other, that I am prone to flights of fantasy and recently said to hell with science, math and medicine and took up music.

Fuck that science shit. I'm gonna have Antonia cut my nuts off and then I'm gonna fly away. I have already put too many innocent children on this painful orb. Now they are doing what I did. I am a G-*&%#)$(*) Grandpa! HELP! SOMEBODY STOP THE CYCLE OF ABUSE OF HUMANITY.

Extinction is the ONLY answer....

OH GOD, YOU DID ME THIS WAY>>>>>>>>

A-1

Well if you guys couldn't catch it by the name, I'm the biggest Matrix fiend in the universe....trust me, this applies to the thread.

1999 - New Years Eve

While the US partied and danced to Prince's 1980's hit, I tossed and turned in bed with the worst case of food poisoning. I for SURE knew I was going to die. I was scared, yet I refused to go to the hospital. The drama queen I am, I opted to stay and suffer this long and grueling death. Well, it didn't seem so bad afterall in the current light of my life. I'd had a degree in English Arts for four years with nothing to show for it; I was working as an underpaid and under-respected secretary at a social & golf club; I'd been trying to crack into screenwriting for three years and failed miserably; I was slowly breaking up with my girlfriend...it was a bad way to go into the New Year, let's just say.

But all that was trivial because my biggest issue in life was religion. I'd been raised Lutheran up till 12 or 13, then my mom decided we were going back to the Baptist church. By 15 I discovered heavy metal, and hence all the wonderful Anton LeVey and Aliester Crowley books. By 16 I was Wiccan and had NO problem in letting my not-too-educated parents know it.

By 18, I was a college freshman who got bunked with a born-again x-tian. It actually didn't take long for her to covert me because on the first day of college, I was so distraught with my spritual and sexual life that I just wanted to be a nun anyway. Hell, Catholics had prettier churches and cool chamber music. I could live w/ it.

But no, back into the Pentacostal, dancing, spinning give-all-your-money to the building fund, the tithes, the offerings, the other offerings and even more offerings while we buy our pastor a BRAND NEW JAGUAR! yes, we did that one year and I actually was happy...as I drove my '88 clunker Chevy.

By 1992, I dropped out of college to go to a local university closer to home. By 1994, I'd found so much wrong with the Church and its interpretation of the Bible, that I went back to Wicca and called myself the hybrid X-tian Crafter.

And all the while, I possessed a paralying phobia of death. Dreamt of hell, dreamt of heaven, dreamt of demons and devils - those Ozzy records will do it to you, I'm tellin' ya.

In 1997 I was introduced to Buddhism (the one Tina Turner practices). I shrugged at it. It was WAY too different for me, yet the practice attracted me a bit.

By 1998 I was practicing quietly, all the while BEGGING GOD for answers, saying, "if you don't want me to practice this, why did you show it to me?" It was the Adam Syndrome, you all know that one, where Adam blames GOD for giving him Eve who ate of the fruit and bade him to eat it too? Heh, I LOVE reading that.

I prayed nights, sobbed, cried, wanted to committ suicide because the world was soooo effed up and there were no true answers. And as an astrologer and tarot reader, I was grossly distraught because I found my crafts to be accurate and useful, yet they were abominations to many of the mainstream religions.

And then March 1999 came. It was the Wednesday before Easter and I was invited to my professor's church for an Easter play. It was okay. Their church was really quirky and funny, so I liked it. But that evening, I didn't want to go home for numerous parental reasons, so I drove around until I realized I had pop cans in my back seat. I cashed them in and decided to catch a movie. It was 9:00...the only interesting thing playing was the Matrix...and it changed how I looked at my own life.

NOW, while I see profound beauty in The Matrix on a gazillion-different levels (won't go into them here), I had to say all the above to say this one thing: Like Neo had to realize who he was and what his potential was to stop the agents, all of us must do the same to battle the everyday challenges that come against us. We all must go through the same catharsis and realize that the god man seeks is within himself. It is not a graying man sitting on a throne of heavenly clouds, an Islamic prophet, a carpenter's son, or an Indian prince turned esthetic. They, like all of us, are embodiments of god and the manifestation of god-like potential (power).

God, in the simplest of terms, is the will of man to do good, to progress and help his fellow man progress. God lives in the compassion of one's heart, the unconditional love and all the joy that comes with it. God is the ability to forgive and to grow. God is the ability to learn from errors and be responsible for one's actions.

In that, I simply call "god" the spirit of the universe. Much like the Native American's Great Spirit, I call upon the Universe often for everything from spiritual questions, to matters of my heart, to matters of my pocket, and yes even to matters of my sexuality. I mean, hell, if can't talk to the Universe (or God) who shares this body with my very soul, who CAN I talk to? Though I don't have all the answers, I do have a sense of peace now in my life I've never had since I could remember. Ever since kindergarten, I had a fear of death, and somewhere in my crazy life of 1999, I lost that fear altogether.

RE: The Science end of things.

I SUCK at science, yet it intrigues me. On a spiritual side, however, I've been where our earlier posters have when they said they "gazed at the face of God" and then ran like bats outta hell. I did it too. It's a scary thing to have burning questions and then be given the answers. Why? The more you know, the more you're responsible for. Nothing has scared me more than the revelations I've had in the past 3 or 4 years. I wake up mornings praying I can call my life just one huge drama laced with one coincidence after another, but I can't anymore. I have to accept what i am, who I am and why I was put here - like all the rest of you. Believing in God is not the test here, it's believing in your own ability to be the best human being you can possibly be and, hopefully, take a few others with you along that path.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Hell, no. Perish the thought.

If I had it to do all over I would have moved to New Orleans in 1970 and became a jazz musician.

A-1

All I care about is strengthening the positive and constructive energy of this universe. Next time You see a little snail crossing the sidewalk and heading out toward traffic do YOURSELF a favor and pick the little guy up and gently put him where he'll be safe. please? There are beings above You who may or may not help You when You need it.

I say be loving and kind, but at the same time also be strong and independant so that the weaker beings can have a hero sometimes:)

life is an adventure....so enjoy it:D

There may or may not be some form of supreme being who is responsible for existence. However, I'm sure that the being is not someone I really want to know if he/she/it wants to be worshipped.

My view is to proceed with life as best as possible, loving & taking care of others as much as you'd like yourself to be loved & cared for along the way.

PUEROS

peter4u (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2002 6:09 am It's a scary thing to have burning questions and then be given the answers. Why? The more you know, the more you're responsible for. Nothing has scared me more than the revelations I've had in the past 3 or 4 years. I wake up mornings praying I can call my life just one huge drama laced with one coincidence after another, but I can't anymore. I have to accept what i am, who I am and why I was put here - like all the rest of you. Believing in God is not the test here, it's believing in your own ability to be the best human being you can possibly be and, hopefully, take a few others with you along that path.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Yes Neoscrow, I can relate. I must confess there are times when I wish I had taken the blue pill (almost). Years ago, one of my teachers said that our path is like a train that costs nothing to get on, but you pay dearly to get off. I have found that to be true.

Farrell

Most of you will remember the girl that didn't sin but by the help of a spirit of some kind (hell, sounds like a lame exuse...*g) got pregnant and then mother anyway.

Remember what later became of that child?

Makes me wonder about what Antonias children are up to become since we can assume that she DID sin, most probably uses spirits for more obvious purposes, did NOT get pregnant but nevertheless has two (or more ?) !

...

Maybe the question should not go to US if we had a problem with god but to HIM, if he's got one with us!

And in that case, if he PLEASE could try talking about it in understandable ways and a civilized manner, because I'm sure then we could come to an agreement that satisfies all.

Hell, I** can tolerate a childish, touchy, vain but unfortunately allmighty Beeing as long as it at least TRYS to behave, but I don't think you should show TOO much tact there anyway. That way you only nurture dictators.

He/she may do to me whatever he/she wants but then will have to go on without me. No problem with ME!

gus.

I hope that there are still people listening to this thread.

Something recently happened that made me truely hope that the Rapture happens very soon. Now, listen to this VERY VERY carefully and see if you got what I got.

When the Rapture happens, all of the 'good' people, ie beleivers in Christ, will go to heaven, and Jesus Christ will come to Earth and rule over a Paradise here.

What's wrong with that statement?

So, Christ, who is the total embodiment of good to a whole bunch of people, is going to come down here where all the sinners are and rule while all the 'good christians' are going to heaven where Christ/God are no longer in residence. Does this mean that Christ, after 2000 years of celibacy, purity, and good is planning on coming down for a very large bender at the end of eternity??? Not only that, but a while back, the Fundamentalists claimed that Orlando would be wipped out by a huricane for letting Gays have work benifits and a Gay Pride day..... Does anyone remember what the very next huricane was??? it was Floyd. And where did Floyd hit? Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. Has Orlando been hit by a huricane yet? I'm really begining to think that we should do the opposite of what it says in the Bible simply because the imperical evidence is that God isn't on the side of all of those fanatics, but on the side of those who can think and reason for themselves. Those places that are more secular seem to be thriving while theocracies flail in the dark ages.

Seriously, though, much of my religious beleifs come from the author Terry Pratchett. In his book Small Gods, he sets up the idea that it wasn't the Gods who created man, but man who created the Gods. That and a lot of Native American/Celtic ideas.

So, I hope you all enjoyed this little rant. I may post more if there are more posts on the subject.

RavenWings,

Just for the record, it was not Pratchett who first postulated the idea that man created God but it has been around for a very long time. The concept really came to the public notice in the late sixties when the then Bishop of Winchester was misquoted as saying 'God is merely an idea in the mind of man'.

However, one thing which he did say was 'if God did not exist then Man would have to invent him'.

My own feeling on this is that humankind invented God many at about the same time that it came down from the trees.

The concept is re-invented by each successive generation. However, what has happened is that the idea has become bigger than the people who were originally involved and has become almost a force in itself.

Personally, I do not believe but respect those that do.

LOL

Dear Colin,

I did not think that Pratchett came up with the idea. I think I had heard a lot of the idea before that, just that he is the only source that I can point directly towards.

I have looked at a lot of the basic cores of many religions and found a lot of the same things expressed. Even Islam has, at its core, the idea of kindness and generosity towards other. Many of the problems in the world seem to stem from those who read but do not spend the time pondering the core of their religion.

One gospel left out of the Bible states that Christ said 'go into the woods to pray, for there you shall find me, go into your heart and you shall find me there.' This is a very transendental mode of thought. There is a lot more to the quote, but I can't remember it all off the top of my head. We also forget the ideas of the Good Samaritan, or the Muslim idea of the People of the Book.

A major proponant of each of the major religions (Islam, Christianity {Anglican}, and Buddhism) have stated that each religion is but a reflection of the Greater Truth.

At the heart of it, I cannot say with certainty what I directly beleive, only that I beleive in a lot of things. One day, I looked at Genisis, Chapter One and saw that the order in which God created the animals matches the way in which Science beleives that the animals came to be. And that St. Augustine of Hippo said, basically, that God programmed the world to become what it shall become, and that a day to God may be a thousand years to us humans. If that last statement is taken to it's logical conclusion, then Armageddon will be right about when the Sun goes nova, give or take about a million years.

That which is, that which will be, and that which has been, who is to say?