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Not so long ago one of my forum friends quit coming to the EA. several of us wondered what had happened to her and if she was alright. In fact there was a whole thread on the matter. I am speaking of Punky pink. Today I noticed that she had posted and then a moment later I saw that she had been banned. So I decided to look at her most recent posts and find out why.

The first thing about the forum is that we have moderators who work very hard at keeping things civil. Theirs is a thankless task and a very tedious one. Whether you are right or wrong in a debate is one thing, but you are always in the wrong if you are making such a difficult job even harder for the moderator, and you are the one who will come up on the loosing end. I understand why Punky pink was banned, but still I am sorry to see her go.

If it were all this simple that would be the end of it and I wouldn't have bothered to post, but this issue is a lot bigger than one person getting banned for poking their finger in the eye of a moderator. The EA is supposed to be a friendly place where we can discuss things and feel safe. We are lucky to have a forum like this and we need to take care of it and keep it inclusive. It is not just the job of the moderators to keep things civil and friendly. It is also our job to keep this forum safe, friendly and inclusive.

To some degree we all self moderate. There are words that we all agree not to use. I will forgo making a list as we all pretty much know what they are. We know that when we use these words it hurts people, and we don't want to hurt others nor do we want to cause offense. Unfortunately despite our own best efforts, and without any malice of forethought, we say and wright things that hurt other members of our community. We do this because we have inherited a lexicon that is from a less than perfect past. There are words in it that were intended to put people into categories and assign them a class or status in society.

Most of the time we use these words without thinking of the original intent. We forget that many of these words were intended to keep a certain social order, and to sanction those who challenged that order. But our society today is not the one that our parents lived in. We live in a much more tolerant society than did our parents. We here on the EA share the special distinction of benefiting from this and understanding how much further there is to go. As we have this understanding, it falls upon us to conduct ourselves in a way befitting our special place in history. In short we need to make the effort to be fair and equitable in our conduct and in our speech so that we help build a society that not only accepts our diversity but is open to the diversity of others. If we do not do this, then truly we are hypocrites. I do not want to be the person demanding my own equality in this society while at the same time I am denigrating someone else for being different.

Now let me be clear on this matter. There are the ways we hurt other, and it should be noted that there is a diference between hurting someone on purpose and doing it unintentionally. When it is done intentionally it needs to be delt with differently than when the hurt was not intentional. When someone causes offense with the intention of hurting another, this is a matter that need the attention of a moderator. I notice the moderators here are very quick to take action on such occasions. Instead of getting embroiled in a flame war or tangling with a troll, just report the matter to a mod, and move on.

But there are the times when people hurt others without meaning to. That lexicon we've inhabited has an awfull lot of awful words that we don't see for what they are. Form time to time we are going to cause offense to others without intention, and in the same way we will be hurt by others who are not trying to hurt us. In such cases we need to take the right action to remedy the situation in a way that raises us all up to a higher level of understanding and compassion.

My heartfelt advice to all who will surly find themselves on either side of this hurt is to practice patience and compassion. Now you may think I am asking for patience on behalf of the person who caused the hurt, and for compassion by the person who was hurt toward the person who caused the hurt, but in fact we all need to be patient with each other, and we all need to be compassionate toward each other, no matter what side of the hurt we find ourselves on.

We don't need to wait for the next flame war to start before we put this into practice. We can practice compassion now by understanding that our words can hurt others, and by choosing better ones. We have the power to take these words out of our own lexicon, and as a forum and a community we can take them out of circulation. That is the compassionate and right thing to do. This won't happen in the blink of an eye, so let us also be patient with each other.

Up until this moment I have avoided using the word tranny, because I know it offends and causes hurt to others, but at some point the word needs to be said if only to say that it should be removed from use. If everyone does this then the EA will be a safer more welcoming place for everyone. Just remember that the words you use say a lot about who you are as a person. I hope they say you are a compassionate, loving and fair human being.

First you are right that we should have a discussion about etiquette here on the board, what word offend and why as we have tried to make this a friendly place for everybody and all walks of life. We are straight, gay, transgendered, bi, post opp, pr opp, old, young, middle aged, use English as a first language, use English as the only language and the list goes on.

If somebody makes a mistake there is a right way and wrong way to say that its offensive, Punkypink is a loose cannon ready to go off at a moments notice to anybody and everybody who she thinks is offending her, without realizing that she is doing the same.

Just for the record, several of us ops had our finger on the red KILL button but were not fast enough. We never like to ban people but when a person is so disruptive to the flow of the boards then they will be ban and rightly so, as we must look out for the welfare of all our members over just one, in this case it was not the first time a moderator has talked to her about her posts, like all things its always a last straw kind of thing. In this case enough was more then enough and we wish her well however suspect that this will be a life problem for her.

So back to etiquette, maybe we should have a thread that shows,

Trans = bad, Transgendered = good

and so on, I am not up on all of them and over the years have made my mistakes so in the spirit of Jema's suggestion lets use this to list them all and when complete we can put it together in one place.

River

I agree entirely with Jema and River. A discussion on words and their meaning is very important and needed. Punky initially made a good point about the word "tranny." Personally, I was not aware it was offensive to some and appreciate learning something new and important. (As an example, I don't like the word "handicapped," preferring "disabled" or "challenged.") It could have been a good teaching moment and provided some good insight and discussion. Jema, you give some sage advice to "practice patience and compassion." If only we all were so wise.

Here is the question: Shall we have a list knowing that it will never be complete, or shall we practice patience and compassion knowing we can never be as patient or compassionate as we need to be?

Are you saying we should not speak of MacWolf's age, looks and personality?

jemagirl (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:23 am Here is the question: Shall we have a list knowing that it will never be complete, or shall we practice patience and compassion knowing we can never be as patient or compassionate as we need to be?

I am of the opinion that we always need to be tolerant and flexible in regard to the speech and opinions of others on the message boards; if I were not exercising restraint at all times there would, indeed, be very few people posting here. I do not think we need a list, I think we each need to examine our language and our behavior more closely. We don't need a list - we need consideration of others. --FLO--

What it boils down to is this:

I was the one who banned PunkyPink, and I almost did it on her next to last post - but I didn't.

I invited her to use the door, and she didn't.

Instead, she did her usual thing - coming onto the forum finding offense in everything, stirring up tension, pouring derision on everything, and as usual, taking offense. It seemed that the only reason she was coming here was to try and start fights.

I'm sorry your friend has such issues, and maybe if she'd taken your advice and been a bit more polite HERSELF, none of this would have happened.

But I'll come right out and be totally honest, and probably offending - what she needs is a good slap to knock some sense into her. I've met a LOT of people who offended me, both in person and online, and I have to say, she's goddamn near the top of the list.

PunkyP is very thin skinned. I could never achieve a PM without committing foot in mouth.

If I were asked or suggested to avoid some term I never regarded as derogatory, I would.

I would not take responsibility over another going off the deep end over a "word".

I hope someone better acquainted with PunkP then I will do some therapeutic outreach,

and maybe "rehabilitate" her membership.

I remember some good PunkyP times when she shared how she could tease.

Going Transgender must be a really, really difficult life commitment. They are brave people.

Sincerely

Moi

On Punky's part I would say that she could have handled things much differently and I don't fault Palo for banning her. However I do wish people would stop using the term tranny as it is as offensive as any racial or ethnic epithet. Would we be as harsh on another member if they were responding to the word faggot or the N word? Would we tolerate any thread where that were in the subject line? I agree that we don't need a list, but we should also need raise our own level of conduct, such that when we see someone using hurtful language, that we do not remain silent.

Um, Does this mean we can't ever have a discussion about the automotive product that Aamco services? (the one between the engine and the universal shaft?)

Give me the term you prefer, and I'll retitle the thread, please and thank you.

As for discussing automotive parts, I think we're good on that.

I think there is a difference in using a term for purposeful derision, put-down, insult, or diminishment of a person or group, and using a term to describe something without intent of harm. Where I think this went off the rails was the immediate drawing of guns and knives by Punky Pink instead of her using it as an opportunity to educate people about why the term is wrong.

On the other hand, I've also felt often that the moderators hit the close or ban buttons often reactively and much too quickly or emotionally. Though I am often on their side in a given conversation I find myself wondering at times if a differing opinion or dissent is allowed here, and many times I'm left bewildered by actions they take and at others somewhat amused and entertained. This said, I'm not the owner here, so they can do what they want and if I or anyone else don't like it we're all free to go elsewhere.

My point to all this is that we all can use a bit of stepping back and thinking before we act. Or as it is at times called in colloquial terms, we all need to avoid "opening our mouths and inserting feet..."

--LT

jemagirl (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:26 pm On Punky's part I would say that she could have handled things much differently and I don't fault Palo for banning her. However I do wish people would stop using the term tranny as it is as offensive as any racial or ethnic epithet. Would we be as harsh on another member if they were responding to the word faggot or the N word? Would we tolerate any thread where that were in the subject line? I agree that we don't need a list, but we should also need raise our own level of conduct, such that when we see someone using hurtful language, that we do not remain silent.

You know the thing I don't really understand.

why is it ok for gays to call each other the "f-word", similarily a black guy calls his compatriots the "n' word.

The T-word fall under the same category for transgendered/transexual folk .( Oh were only allowed to use it, but.......it's not ok for everybody else to use it.)

Is it any wonder how the word is still being spread nonchalantly as if it were ok and cool to still use hmmm?

Sure it has it's terrible meaning, when taken in a derrogatory context, but let's not forget it's a word used to describe trans folk.

Regardless of its inceptual harmful meaning, it doesn't have to be harmful. In end it's just a word and nothing but a word till its backed up by the rest of the phrase and context from which it is being used.

I don't condone it but I'm not going to cry spilled beans over it. But it ain't going away anytime soon.

It's like that catch phrase many outside lgbt use that's become mainstream. I don't like it but what can you really do except try to educate masses against it's use. That it's hurtful.

phrase : "That's so gay!"

I try to ignore it as best I can unless the offender is seriously asking to be beaten if pushing me to the limit

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G1zhe85spsw& ... 1zhe85spsw

Hey guys. I propose a profanity tax LOL.....naw just joking but you see what I mean

Paolo wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:43 pm Give me the term you prefer, and I'll retitle the thread, please and thank you.

I'm pretty sure that with a little thought and sensitivity anyone of us could find a way of talking about the subject without using such an offensive word. As for me, I do feel somewhat out of place saying exactly what should be, but if I were pressed on the point I would retitle the thread this way. Transgendered woman cuts off her penis.

If the subject of the thread were "Faggot cuts off his penis" we would all know that we could say the same thing by writing it as "Gay man cuts off his penis".

foxytaur (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:10 pm You know the thing I don't really understand.

why is it ok for gays to call each other the "f-word", similarily a black guy calls his compatriots the "n' word.

The T-word fall under the same category for transgendered/transexual folk .( Oh were only allowed to use it, but.......it's not ok for everybody else to use it.)

You raise an excellent question. I wish there were an excellent that should safely guide us through such a thorny topic but I am afraid there really isn't one. The best I can tell you is that when you are a member of the group for which the derogatory term is applied you automatically get usage rights. After all you have already paid for them, am I wrong?

In other words, as I am not black, were I to use the N word I would be doing at the expense of someone else. Also I think that when we speak within our group, we can take the sting out of the word by using it. However Punky pink did make the point...

The problem with reclaiming the word "tranny" is that it usually implies a denial of our identities.

It doesn't help stop the word's influence when the same marginalized group adopts it social wise in a non harmful way. The flow of information is neverending.

There's a reason words in the english( or for that matter other laguages) lexicon become discontinued, people change with the times, so do the liguistics, I bet if you search up ye old english terminology theres an entire stockpile of words that have been discarded in favour of new ones. Some that replace the word in favour of another to mean the same thing. Sometimes the culture changes drastically that the word is dropped indefinetly bc it doesn't describe the original settings in which it took place.

The same needs to apply with the word "tranny".

Its really simple jema if we continue using it, its never going away.

Its a slow process, we might not even be alive to see it vanish, but we need to lay the foundation to educate others no to use it.

Just like there's those banners about homosexuals

quote: "That's so gay is so yesterday"

I view the quote above as positive activism.

If there's something I'm not really in agreement with Punky pink it seems is the beligerance of her activism.

Beligerance rarely gets you anywhere and rarely unless coordinated.

Punky pink showed none of that from what Ive gathered from everyone so far.

NB = I guess you could say transfolk have the right to use the T-word but it really doesn't make it right.

I would like to address a couple issues,

First for an old guy like me, I am still confused as to why one is ok and the other is not, and its not just Transgendered I am talking about. Remember where I came from AIDS was a pill to reduce weight, and RPG was a computer language I wrote in. I remember once in the service where the commander said to get some TP, I reported back that there was plenty of toilet paper in the loo, he meant Transportation.

So the first thing is if someone says something offensive it may not have been meant that way, be polite and correct it.

Second as for being quick to ban someone, when a person has been here a while and it ban it is because all other means to correct the problem has failed. In the case of Punky we talked to her several times about going off on people because she felt offended, this was not the first time, or second. There comes a time when we as moderators must weigh the value of the member to all the other members of this site. Being rude to a moderator will get you ban, its like when a cop pulls you over and asks you if you know why he pulled you over and your response is 'because your an asshole?' Yes you will get a ticket and fix your tail light.

Remember not everything you see on this site is everything going on and when several of us are trying to hit the ban button and loose out because another beat us to it, its most likely for the right reason.

River

I think any word can be used in a way to cause offense. I have learned in my 57 years that a word spoken by a friend vs. that same word spoken by someone unknown can cause different reactions. This site is in my opinion is composed of kind and concerned people who either share or have compassion in each other's struggles. This is the last place I would look for offense.

When someone makes you afraid of ever misspeaking regarding titles, names or pronouns it tires you out. We all make mistakes and if I am overcorrected I tend to say offensive things for fun, shock value. I transitioned from male to eunuch so I consider myself transgendered. Sure it was a hell of a lot easier than it is for M to F or F to M but the internal struggle is still there. So I am offended when someone calls me sir.

Just few thoughts

Certain words do not make people offending. It is their thinking behind these words.

What I do respect a lot is honesty. It really does not matter what words are used. If person is not too aware of word meaning one is using, honesty and respectfulness solves just every situation. Even if someone is honest about negative feelings he or she has. These can be understood and respected.

Paolo certainly has that quality. And I like him also because he is able to apologise if he is wrong.

It is not meant to boast Paole here, it is rather an example

Actually I think PunkyPink does have a extremely valid point and that in fact it was the title of the thread she was angry about that was the much more offensive and should have never been allowed in the first place. Sometimes we do forget that we are a bunch of no-good middle aged men (eunuch or no) that have become very set to a certain type of attitude pertaining to yesteryear. But in fact we are very offensive to people of other groups particularly of the younger age group and among women. The problem with Eunuch Archive as I see it is that it does limit itself to older white men mainly in the United States when in fact it could be SO-O-O much more than that. And it's this old country club attitude that does put people off that would otherwise normally join the EA. So whereas she didn't voice it right, you do have to nevertheless understand how exhasperated she was. Where she was one, there were certainly probably many, many others that reacted in the same manner without making any replies. They simply left is all even if they were eunuchs themselves. Myself, being here long enough and so used to it simply rolled my eyes and ignored the thread as I had become accustomed to doing a lot. I didn't even know what this was about until I decided to search her last posts since I had ignored that thread that she and no doubt many, many others were offended at. I know in the past me and her may have had our disagreements but as far as the etiquette issue is concerned I think somebody at the top blew it (no doubt somebody with the caloused attitude of an older male. Just saying.

I can summarize things in two words.. Tread Lightly.

Yes, tread lightly. Another thing, READ what you are going to submit before you submit it. You might find you want to change the comments so they are less "inflamatory" but more constructive. Quite a few have said, "In my opinion (or case or thinking), I feel this way or that way. I, personally, did not know that the word "tranny" was anathema so I guess I am glad I did not comment on the title.:-\

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:39 pm Second as for being quick to ban someone, when a person has been here a while and it ban it is because all other means to correct the problem has failed. In the case of Punky we talked to her several times about going off on people because she felt offended, this was not the first time, or second. There comes a time when we as moderators must weigh the value of the member to all the other members of this site. Being rude to a moderator will get you ban, its like when a cop pulls you over and asks you if you know why he pulled you over and your response is 'because your an asshole?' Yes you will get a ticket and fix your tail light.

Remember not everything you see on this site is everything going on and when several of us are trying to hit the ban button and loose out because another beat us to it, its most likely for the right reason.

River

I understand the difficulties of moderation myself, but when I sit back here as a user I can politely say that I've seen many threads get closed down before I've had a chance to see a single post in them.

I'm not sure if you're able to do it in this system, but where I perform the same duties, I do not outright ban someone unless they have done something so horrible that they're not going to be allowed back in ever. On MBM the theft of materials and reposting them without permission is the big one, and I can only recall banning someone over that on one occasion.

I tend to suspend accounts and send the user messages telling them what they have to do to return their account to good standing. I'm not sure if you have a system in place here to simply suspend rather than ban. I've found suspension with a note to the user generally gets their attention. For 'infractions' like Punky Pink had I usually suspend them for a day, then lift it and send them a note saying why it was in place and that they are welcome back if they cease doing whatever it was that got the account suspended. I give 'em a chance that way, and losing access for a day is usually a good enough attention getter to get them to stop the behavior without alienating them completely.

--LT

That "somebody at the top" had had enough of her attitude, and the raft of complaints in my inbox about her posts.

All that was required was a simple post of "Can you change that title, please? I find it offensive." And it would have been done with a "sorry about that" tagged on.

BUT NO, someone has to come in screaming and throwing insults about it...oh well...

And for the record, it takes a LOT for me to get angry at someone, much less ban them from the forums. A LOT. And believe me, I'd had a LOT.