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The World Professional Association for Transgender Health has just embarked on a project to write the next version of its Standards of Care. Version 7 (published in 2012) had the first mention of anything beyond the standard gender binary (pigeonholes for "male" and "female" with no recognition of anything else). Eunuch got a brief mention in the appendix as a possible gender identity.

The biennial WPATH conference that just concluded in Amsterdam had several entire sessions on genders outside the binary. Non-binary gender was also mentioned in papers scattered across several additional sessions. It was a frequent topic of hallway discussions. (I was pleased that our paper on voluntary eunuchs at the 2009 WPATH conference in Oslo was mentioned as the first paper on non-binary ever presented at WPATH.)

At the session devoted to beginning the process to rewrite the SOC, Eli Coleman, the editor for the new version, pointed at me and announced that I was expected to provide input on eunuchs for the revision. Now is our opportunity to help devise the standards of care that will be most helpful.

What needs to be in the SOC? For those who have read version 7 (available as a FREE PDF on-line in 13 languages at http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_a ... bpage=4655. (They will happily sell you a print version, if you prefer that to the free PDF.) What needs to be added, and where, in the standards? What needs to be removed or revised, and how.

For example, should a short period (no more than 6 months) of hormone blockers be required as a "test run" before any surgery? How much emphasis should be placed on fertility issues in counseling? What should any counselor make certain that a potential eunuch knows and understands? (E.g., what does "informed consent" mean before castration?)

Some information that would help me to write a proposal for WPATH would be

1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered "eunuch"?

4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

Any additional information about your personal path toward becoming a eunuch would be helpful. Any suggestions that you are willing to make will help to strengthen the SOC.

You can either comment below or send me an email with your thoughts at:

JAzevado-at-gmail-dot-com

Hi Jesus,

Really? A test run of hormone blockers? Hell AND no! That pigeon holes people like me into doing something we're entirely uncomfortable with. My intention wasn't to end my masculinity, it was to end the discomfort living in this body that I was on the verge of killing because the genitals on it made me so uncomfortable... By the way, I no longer feel that way now that I've made it to my goal. Hormone blockers might be a reasonable thing for men who are desiring some state of asexuality as a result of their transition, but for the vast majority of men who have had their testicles removed, at least in my experience, this would be an incredibly unproductive thing to require us to do. A complete waste of time and incredibly frustrating.

For men in my position, there is absolutely no way to perform a 1-year real life test of any sort. How on Earth do you real life test what it's going to be like to be a nullo (or eunuch) with testosterone replacement? The answer is, you can't. So that leaves us with the psych letter and that interview process. That's about the best that can be done.

Fertility quizzing, perhaps if desire of children comes out in the therapy process. At that point those options would need to be explored with the person, but in my case I knew I wasn't suited to be a parent. I'm happily childless. I only like those that visit then go home and scream in their parents house.

After two decades of knowing what I needed, being given unnecessary hoops to jump through would have made me more despondent. By the time I went through with getting castrated, I think I pretty well had my mind set on giving informed consent. I would have consented to complete emasculation at the time I was castrated if a surgeon would have done so. I only did that much at the time because it was as far as I felt I could safely go then (back in 2005). Once a door opened to me for complete nullification, I took the opportunity and walked through it with the legitimate surgeon for the rest. Best. Decision. Ever.

Answers to your questions:

1. I was castrated at 35, and had my penis and remaining genital tissues external to the body removed at 44. I think 30-35 was right for me and castration, and I would have consented to have my genitals completely removed then in a legitimate setting.

2. N/A

3. Yes, I thought I was an MtF at a very young age, because back in the late 70's and early 80's, in the era before the internet, that's all a young boy of 10-13 could find where men had their genitals removed. But that never felt completely right... Enter the Internet around 1994-95, and I found out I wasn't alone and that what I actually was is a variation of Male-to-Eunuch (MtE), a guy who wished to remain a guy but wanted to have his external genitalia removed.

4. Self-surgery... If defined as using a cutter, then yes. It's how I got castrated. Now that legitimate routes are available, I encourage my yet to be eunuch brothers to see a surgeon. I also did a meatotomy on myself, but I don't consider that much of a self-surgery or self-harm, that was more to enjoy playing with urethral sounds and get bigger ones down the urethra. The castration at Age 35, the meatotomy at 37, penectomy and the rest 44.

My biggest suggestion... as MtE is added, do not insist that we all need to do a chemical castration trial first. MtE is not cookie cutter, and in my and many other MtE's cases, it wouldn't be productive and would likely have upset our partners, if we have one. This is because the goal is not to become asexual, it's to be more comfortable in our physical bodies. We enjoy sexual contact. MtE is not always done to become asexual (definitely not in my case), and that's the only reason a chemical castration trial would be of any use. For those who wish to become asexual as a result of losing their testicles, then perhaps this would be o.k. to do. Those who do not wish that, please don't, we'll just get more despondent.

At the end of this, if they grew back, I'd be seeking to have them removed again. I absolutely love being a nullo... and I no longer wish to do any sort of self harm.

--LT

HI. Here are my nswers.

1 67. I would have preferred to have them removed when I had my vasectomy at around 35. I think, no believe, I would have been much happier. Of course, being married put a crimp in that thought process and desire.

2. N/A

3, Yes. As early as 4 years. It never really left me adn I can remember standing in front of a mirror and hiding my genitals between my legs and thinking it would be wonderful to be smooth like that, nothing dangling between my legs.

4. No.

My ultimate path to castratin was extreme pain in my testicles that no medicine would astop. My second urologist was wise enough to accommodate me in the removal of them witha proviso. If my health provider covered testosterone replacement. I was fortunate it did so he consented to do the surgery. I am cutting down on the amount of testosterone I am using now. 20.25 mg every other day. I feel great and am not gaining weight unless i forget to watch what I eat and how much..

Line Losethem, if they grewe back I would want them removed again. I would not mind losing my penis now but at 78, I doubt i can get that done.

1) I was castrated at 49, and in retrospect would have preferred to have been castrated at a young age, maybe in my 20s. My only hesitation thinking back is that, if I had found the right mate, I would have liked to have had children. I found a doctor to castrate me as I was about to turn 50 because I completely ruled out the possibility.

2) N/A

3) No, never on Male-to-Female. I found eunuch as a gender identity in my teen years. I first learned about a vasectomy and then about castration.

4) Yes, many times since my mid-30s because castration seemed so out of reach.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you want more information.

Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:46 am A test run of hormone blockers? Hell AND no! That pigeon holes people like me into doing something we're entirely uncomfortable with. My intention wasn't to end my masculinity, it was to end the discomfort living in this body that I was on the verge of killing because the genitals on it made me so uncomfortable...

That's exactly the response that I expected from you (and from many others as well). The question, though, is a critical one if we are to get "eunuch" into the Standards of Care, Version 8 so as to get proper care (and even insurance coverage!). Experiences with the Version 7 are such that WPATH will emphasize INFORMED CONSENT in the next version. We need to have a very clear statement of what it would look like for those wanting to be castrated.

It turns out that, despite counseling, there have been many Male-to-Female who get to the other end and have regrets because their Sexual Reassignment Surgery included castration and they can no longer produce children. It was, of course, included as a topic in the counseling, but it didn't penetrate. We need to be very clear on the issue in any statement we want included.

I hope that you, and others, will be able to come up with steps toward an effective statement on exactly HOW a counselor can be certain that you know what you want and that you will have no, or are at least very unlikely to have, regrets after surgery. For those who are MtE, a trial run could be a central part. For those with xenomelia/BIID, it wouldn't work. We need a SINGLE standard, however, that works for everyone.

Any thoughts?????

Well I guess I'm going to be something of a fly in the ointment on this one.

1. 62. I started thinking about ways to either cut down or eliminate my libido in my late twenties. I was quite surprised to learn that medical castrations were performed as part of the treatment of prostate cancer. So it was possible for a human male to be castrated in a safe environment not like my friends farm animals. That was in my early thirties and given the chance, I'm pretty certain I would have opted for the procedure at that point.

2. N/A

3. Never really considered MtF although I was curious what it might be like to be female. I was probably about 10 when I ran across references to "Eunuch" in some of the books I read, mostly having something to do with harem guards, but I never thought it actually happened.

4. Didn't ever try "self surgery".

I did spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out ways to restrict my ability to masturbate including a several year run with serious chastity devices and a willing partner. I seemed to be much calmer and less irritable with not having the ability to masturbate at will but I knew it wasn't the answer because the urges were still there and although I'd given up on women after a nasty divorce and subsequent issues with the fairer sex, I was indulging in increasingly hazardous auto erotic activities. By that time, the Internet had become available and it was made known that Thailand was a place you could get MtF surgeries including the orchiectomy with no questions asked.

The I went on a run one day (I'm a retired Paramedic) where we found a male college student dead in his room from suffocation. He'd gotten himself into a hog tie position usine self bondage techniques, with a noose around his neck. Now anyone who's played with bondage stuff will know that after a period of time, those muscles will start to contract and there's nothing you can do to stop them outside of a release. I'm not sure how he figured on getting out but he didn't make it. That was enough for me, I started trying to find out the specifics and costs of getting overseas. It was always more money than I could lay my hands on, I didn't have a prayer of getting the two letters since at that point you could get them for MtF but what man in his right mind would want to be castrated to become a MtE?

Finding Dr. Arnkoff was a godsend for me and I started saving money immediately. It had become possible to obtain the anti-Androgen drugs in the US and I picked the generic Androcur. I felt it was important for me to have a trial run of the symptoms and for me, it was a good choice. I first contacted Dr. Arnkoff after being on the med for six months and I wanted to know how to get things done. I had the procedure five months later so I was on meds for eleven months total. I really liked the change in myself and the only real issue was the breast development after I went to the max dosage at six months in, strangely enough I was never able to get my Testosterone levels down to castrate level with the single med. After the orchie, it didn't take long for the symptoms to get more pronounced, the night sweats were awful.

Now four years out, I'm extremely glad that I did it but outside of the trial run, I'm not sure I'd have done it right then even though I'd wanted to get it done for quite a few years. So while I know you asked that a SINGLE reason come out of the discussion but I don't really think that's possible. I believe that those suffering from different medical issue like testicular pain should have an open and direct shot at getting some help. Those who feel identity disorders are a different proposition. I've seen to many fellow humans make decisions that they later regretted and always felt sorry for those who'd gone through all the MtF stuff including the surgeries and then felt like they'd made a mistake. I don't see a way around that other than a time period spent with a counselor, they've thought about things or felt certain ways for quite awhile, waiting a few more months should not be that big of an issue.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

Can't help you with this, sorry.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

I am in my early thirties. The first time I wanted to be castrated, I was about sixteen, and had strongly mixed feelings - I was also afraid that I wanted it. This came out of a misunderstanding in my biology class during high school leading to some internet research.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered "eunuch"?

I never seriously thought about it, though in hindsight, I had some minor gender-noncomforming tendencies before entering school. During high school, I flirted with the idea of male-to-hermaphrodite, though - that was when I was reinventing transhumanism, and I was extremely pleased to find out that there were other freaks out there like me who enjoyed the thought of that kind of weird shit.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

No. I'm well aware that I am not capable of guaranteeing my own safety, and my standards for doing anything in regards to body modification is "The right thing, for the right reason, in the right way." While it's certainly a high standard, self-surgery doesn't get anywhere close to meeting it. (I'd also like to add "...at the right time" to that list, but if I need to see four specialists before local doctors will do anything surgical, as my urologist requested, and they're backed up, that's not even anywhere close to realistic, either.)

I have no interest in doing a trial of chemical castration. My hormone levels are already FUBAR; I'd probably spontaneously feminize. I have active interest in NOT doing it. What I might be willing to do is to spend a while using hormone blockers and supplements to dial in a hormone level I like, though - I must echo those before me who said they have no interest in becoming sexless. If the emphasis is on informed c

JesusA wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:34 am onsent, then let us make informed consent to hormone replacement of whatever form we want, with the option to fall back to natural levels if it doesn't work for the patient.

It turns out that, despite counseling, there have been many Male-to-Female who get to the other end and have regrets because their Sexual Reassignment Surgery included castration and they can no longer p

roduce children. It was, of course, included as a topic in the counseling, but it didn't penetrate. We need to be very clear on the issue in any statement we want included.This will be less of an issue, going forward. Why? New 3D Printed Ovaries Allow Infertile Mice to Give Birth (http://singularityhub.com/2016/04/10/th ... y-in-mice/) and Lab-Grown Testicles Could One Day Help Injured Soldiers Have Kids (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/lab-gr ... -have-kids) There's a lot of work being done to fix being fixed, thanks to DARPA. My answer to possible regrets is the fact that in about ten years, a sex change will be reversible.

As for waiting periods, well... For example, if I decide I want to be a neutered twink, I'd like to look like a twink - with the waits some here have described, you'd end up looking like one of Tom of Finland's gay-and-gray types.

I have another (completely optional) question for the survey, if you've read this far and it amuses you to answer it - would you make any other changes to your body if the technology was there?

JesusA wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:34 am I hope that you, and others, will be able to come up with steps toward an effective statement on exactly HOW a counselor can be certain that you know what you want and that you will have no, or are at least very unlikely to have, regrets after surgery. For those who are MtE, a trial run could be a central part. For those with xenomelia/BIID, it wouldn't work. We need a SINGLE standard, however, that works for everyone.

Any thoughts?????

You NEED a single standard that works for everyone, but everyone is different. There's that dreaded cookie cutter showing up again. The cookie cutter needs to be thrown away, as I can think of at least 7 variations of MtE, 4 of which would have chemical castration as a component and the other 3 are more common from my experience here. Finding a single, unified response for MtE is like trying to find a unicorn. It's not going to happen. The seven variations are:

Non-asexualization - wishes to remain with testosterone post-op, the most common variety of MtE (and where I am):

1. Penectomized

2. Castrated

3. Both (nullo)

Asexualized - Wishes to reduce libido/eliminate sex drive:

4. Penectomized

5. Castrated

6. Both (nullo)

7. Neither (wishes long-term chemical castration)

I'm not sure you can unify all that into one thing for a therapist or an MD to go, "Aha! A diagnosis..." This in many ways is going to be more complex than MtF or FtM. While some of those go for only top surgery, bottom surgery, or both, it's more clear-cut what they ultimately desire to present to the world. We MtE's are not so easy to define. Unless this single standard is a standard with subsets/variations, it's impossible to create just one.

--LT

I was castrated at 41 years of age. I wish it had been done in my early twenties.

I was not happy being a boy and thought about being a girl. The feelings started at a young age and I was still thinking about it until my early twenties. Once I learned about eunuchs and castration I knew I found my answers.

In my case I do not think hormone blockers would have been needed. I had already waited so long. As far as fertility as a gay man and now a gay eunuch I never considered having a child. Storing sperm was a non issue for me. Just get the T out of my life. As a therapist it would be interesting to determine if someone is happy with their birth gender or not. Once it is determined they are not comfortable determining rather M to F or M to E is the answer.

Losethem (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:57 am You NEED a single standard that works for everyone, but everyone is different. There's that dreaded cookie cutter showing up again. The cookie cutter needs to be thrown away, as I can think of at least 7 variations of MtE, 4 of which would have chemical castration as a component and the other 3 are more common from my experience here. Finding a single, unified response for MtE is like trying to find a unicorn. It's not going to happen. The seven variations are:

Non-asexualization - wishes to remain with testosterone post-op, the most common variety of MtE (and where I am):

1. Penectomized

2. Castrated

3. Both (nullo)

Asexualized - Wishes to reduce libido/eliminate sex drive:

4. Penectomized

5. Castrated

6. Both (nullo)

7. Neither (wishes long-term chemical castration)

I'm not sure you can unify all that into one thing for a therapist or an MD to go, "Aha! A diagnosis..." This in many ways is going to be more complex than MtF or FtM. While some of those go for only top surgery, bottom surgery, or both, it's more clear-cut what they ultimately desire to present to the world. We MtE's are not so easy to define. Unless this single standard is a standard with subsets/variations, it's impossible to create just one.

--LT

That's really a good point, LT.

MtF or FtM cases are mostly quite easy in regards what surgery is desired and what hormone treatment is applicable. There are only few varieties, but as you describe, MtE is not so easy. I don't know if it is possible to cover all the different types of MtE in one standard. But all these seven types NEED to be covered, if a proper treatment shall be possible.

TEST RUN. Obviously the doctors like to suggest chemical castration before surgical castration. On the other hand, the same doctors always will tell you that you will need HRT after castration to stay healthy. So, why a mandatory test run, if later a HRT is strongly recommended? I think a test run is only useful if it is wanted to live without HRT.

Chemical castration is not suitable to simulate the physical fact that testicles and/or penis are removed.

FERTILITY. This subject should be covered during counselation. It needs to be stressed that castration causes infertility. Maybe there are wannabees who haven't thought about this.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

N/A

2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

I am 41. Taking into consideration what I know today about castration and also about myself, I think a good age for my nullification would have been between 16 and 19. Unfortunately I wasn't aware of the existance of MtE at that age, so I struggled a lot with my feelings because I could't understand my wish for becoming a nullo, I simply didn't know that MtE is existent, so I wasn't able to handle my feelings.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered "eunuch"?

Clearly NO. Being MtF came never across my mind. When I first discovered "eunuch" I was about 12.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

Not really. Sometimes I banded my genitals for a few minutes, first time probably aged 14 or 15.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am Any additional information about your personal path toward becoming a eunuch would be helpful. Any suggestions that you are willing to make will help to strengthen the SOC.

Since puberty my genitals became a growing source of discomfort to me. At first I had quite much difficulties to understand my interest in castration and growing desire to become a nullo. Things became clearer after I became access to the internet when I was about 25. Then I started to realize I am not alone and things became clearer. The first time in my life I had a name for what I felt all the time. After many years of struggling and fighting against my feelings I realized in 2013 that I need professional help, so I started counseling at a therapist. Unfortunately there are no established standards of care here in Germany, so I still didn't get proper help. This caused massive problems, for example strong depressions and, as a result of that, loss of my job. Things got a little better now, I have a new job and my health also improved. But there is still no big hope that a surgical treatment will be supported in the near future. Now there is a litte progress, the diagnosis GIDNOS is taken into consideration for the first time.

My biggest problem was the lack of information. As a teenager I knew that I was somehow different, but I couldn't identify the problem. I knew about transgender, but the only thing that was clear to me I'm not MtF. The missing knowledge made it impossible for me to identify myself as a MtE transgender. An other problem was to accept my own feelings, as things like a third gender simply didn't exist.

Sometimes it feels like the past 25 years are somehow wasted because I wasn't able to live in the body that feels right for me. I know a castration being still a teenager would have been quite early, but "normal" transgenders today start transitioning at the same age, so I think it is quite probable that my life would have taken a significant better way when my genitals would have been removed at that age.

One last word regarding HRT. In the beginning I thought being without T would be absolutely necessary. Some effects of T I don't like at all, especially the body hair. But when being without T my fear is that feminization and weight gain would start. Both are things I absolutely don't want, so now I think some kind of HRT would be necessary. Maybe some level below normal, but high enough to prevent unwanted effects.

My big hope is that we Eunuchs will soon get the same access to proper treatment as it is already established for other transgender. There are so much parallels, we are not much different to MtF and FtM, so why don't treat us in a similar way?

1) Surgically castrated (testicles and scrotum removed) at age 50, which is only about 3 yrs after I first became interested in becoming a eunuch, so I did not have to wait long. Had I developed my desire to be castrated earlier I would have wanted it sooner.

2) N/A

3) Never wanted to be MtoF. I learned about castration in High School but never really wanted to be a eunuch until late 40s.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery?

No.

As far as informed consent goes, there are only so many ways you can confirm a person knows they will be rendered infertile after castration. Imposing a lengthy psych counseling requirement could be financially burdensome for some. A waiting period between initial consultation and castration might be considered, as it will weed out some impulse decisions. I had to wait about 4 mo. to get a surgery date from date my Dr. agreed to castrate me, so I had plenty of time to re-think it.

Perhaps have prospective eunuchs write out a letter saying what they understand castration will mean for them, including not being able to father children.

Other effects of castration should be included in consent counseling as well, like loss of sensation from having testicles (and scrotum, if applicable) removed. Sex is less pleasurable now for me without my testicles and scrotum to play with, and I don't think I fully realized how much pleasure sensation involves the balls and scrotum. Also, loss of volume of ejaculate should be covered. I know they say this is same as vasectomy and only results in about a 10% loss of ejaculate but mine seems to be more, perhaps because of less stimulation. This would be in addition to the effects of no testosterone if the eunuch decides not to go with TRT.

I'm so glad this conversation's happening. Thanks so much, Jesus, for soliciting our thoughts on this.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

I was castrated by Arnkoff at the age of 33. In fact, I just celebrated my one-year "Eunuchversary." I think I could've done it a bit sooner (31-32) and still have been fine. It was mostly a matter of needing time to get my partner on board.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

N/A

3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered "eunuch"?

I've never once thought of myself as MTF. However, all my life I've felt "outside of" maleness. I feel a real attraction to qualities that western society has labeled "masculine" and sometimes I even enjoy enacting them myself. I love my beard, for instance, and am into weight training, and have zero interest in growing breasts or undergoing surgery to create labia. But I still don't feel exactly like "a man." This is further complicated by the fact that I enjoy exploring "femme" and "androgynous" gender expressions from time-to-time, AND I want to go nullo some day. I'm definitely outside of the binary; rather than being male or female, I think of myself as varying degrees of "butch" or "femme" on a given day. If I have to pick a label, eunuch fits, and so does genderqueer, gender fluid, agender. Hell, sometimes even "male" fits. Like everyone else, it's impossible to squeeze myself into one box.

I discovered voluntary eunuchs and nullos in my mid-20s and there was no turning back.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

Nope. I played with an elastrator as a masturbatory tool, but I never left it on long enough to cause damage. I think 20-30 minutes was my record. Hardly a high score.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am Any additional information about your personal path toward becoming a eunuch would be helpful. Any suggestions that you are willing to make will help to strengthen the SOC.

I concur with LoseThem and many others that the SOC should not require a trial run on hormone blockers. If somebody's motivation is asexuality or to become a eunuch who doesn't take HRT, I think a good therapist would push for such a trial run, but if there needs to be a unified, general SOC, leave that out. Like so many of us, I had zero interest in going without replacement T. Admittedly, I briefly flirted with the idea of trying out chem castration, but it was more because I felt I needed to do something castration-related or else I'd explode. Fortunately, I got my appointment with Arnkoff around then so there was never a need to try out chem.

Fertility discussions should happen, I suppose. It was never an issue with me because I've never wanted kids and never will.

Having discussions with countless eunuchs and nullos on the EA and on MBM helped me immensely, as did working with a therapist who's versed in trans issues (he was just at the Amsterdam WPATH, in fact). I think part of the SOC should involve some counseling with a therapist who has an understanding of the unique motivations, needs, and experiences of our community. I'd advocate a minimum 3-6 months of therapy before getting a letter. The therapy sessions should, in my opinion, accomplish two primary goals--

1) Help the client clarify for himself why he wants this procedure. Gender issues? Asexuality? An aesthetic body mod? Sexual fetish? Or does it come from a really bad place of "I need to punish myself because I'm 'not man enough'" or something similar. More than likely it's a combination of many factors. I know that figuring out my gender issues and my preferred sexual proclivities really helped clarify things for me.

2) Educate the client. I think informed consent simply means knowing the health risks, the irreversibility of the decision, and the psychological impact.

"Forcing" the client to spend 3-6 months talking through his desire in person will probably help guide him in whatever the right direction is. Keep in mind that for most of us, this was either something we kept locked in our heads or only discussed on the EA, through the lens of a computer screen. Discussing it out loud with somebody who isn't going to judge you or try to have you committed helps a lot.

Qunuch81 (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 am "Forcing" the client to spend 3-6 months talking through his desire in person will probably help guide him in whatever the right direction is. Keep in mind that for most of us, this was either something we kept locked in our heads or only discussed on the EA, through the lens of a computer screen. Discussing it out loud with somebody who isn't going to judge you or try to have you committed helps a lot.

I'm working with a guy in the Northwest US that has been treated horribly by therapists thus far. I think his issue has been seeing the wrong type of therapist. He said any time he brings up the idea he wishes to have his genitals removed, the therapist would immediately start treating him differently and threaten having him committed. After talking to him a bit, I told him he was likely seeing the wrong kind of therapist and that he needed to seek help from a therapist that deals with gender non-conforming issues. I've since, with the help of an other soon to be nullo, pointed him in the direction of such a person in his area.

He has been so scared to approach that he asked I approach the suggested therapist first and ask about things. I told him I would (and I did), but that he was going to have to do this himself and that I couldn't act as a proxy. At this point, I'm not sure if he has contacted or not as it's only been a week since I let him know the therapist was interested in speaking with him.

My point in bringing this up is, we need to concentrate on getting these people pointed to the right kind of help. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and this is a prime example. Even doctors don't know where to send patients that bring this up, they need to learn where to send them.

I hope the guy I've been chatting with does go see this therapist. I feel very badly for him and know he needs some help. He's not likely to self-harm, but he's incredibly skittish because the medical professionals he's run into thus far label him crazy or worse.

--LT

1) not castrated yet.

2) 42 now. And I think that age 15-16 would have been the right age, if I had plenty of information, mentor, trial period to feel what it really meant and no big social pressures to behave like or look like everybody else. Then I would have been mentally ready for castration and happiest person in the world.

3) I have never thought about being Male-to-Female. For me male and female gender roles always seemed kind of strange (I understand reproductive logic of course), sexuality (sex drive) has always been something that is not an integral part of me, attatched to me forcefully that I have to endure, still at times I can feel quite lustful. And I never felt like I want to become masculine. I don't like beard and moustache, I wear clothes that do not stress my masculinity. I am just me, not a masculine male. I remember that when my legs started to get hairy it made me feel very unhappy, it caused me intense discomfort, so that I shaved my legs but that made things worse and I just kept my legs covered. In fact any additional bodyhair that appeared on my body made me feel unhappy, may be except pubes. I was 12 or 13 when I first learned about eunuchs, but it really didn't ring any bells. At 15 suddenly I developed intense interest in eunuchs and a thought that it would be right to become an eunuch, There was something magical in act of castration that always aroused me sexually, but my interest didn't stop with the act. I imagined myself without all that sexdrive and sexuality that was attached to me and it felt kind of right. But back then I thought I am the only weirdo in the world and tried not to think about impossible stuff.

4) Well, I didn't attempt exactly self surgery, but at age 22 I was very close to killing my balls exactly the same way like Trentag lately did. I put rubber band around my balls and cooled them down to about 10 degrees above freezing and kept them this way for 1,5h. Obviously there wasn't much pain and if I kept them tied off for longer I would have ended up in emergency room which I didn't want to happen. I did this several times. I became so afraid about ending in emergency ward that I stopped any further attempts.

Regarding fertility, if MtoE person is young enough, at least some sperm must be frozen for future. When I was 25 I had no great desire to have my own children. Later, at age 35 desire to have my own children grew to irresistible urge. I would say that without my own children I would have been very unhappy now. And having children made me feel 'complete'. They bring me joy every single day. And damn, I am so proud about them!

So, yea,

It seems kind of symptomatic that people start to notice their gender identity or its difference from normal during puberty. For MtoE person life before puberty seems exactly ideal, as children before puberty are naturally eunuchs, person without excessive sexual desire or without pronounced gender behaviour. It is difficult thus to detect MtoE person before puberty. Many people here, including me, think that it would have been ideal for them to become an eunuch at their teens. Years between their teens and actual castration have been full of doubt, self hatred, confusion, uncerntainty. If I think of myself, it would have been ideal if EA was around during my early teens, so I knew that MtoE people exist and that I might be one of them. Then the next step would have been finding a real life mentor or counselor that I trusted and could openly discuss all related issues including chemical castration and stopping or delaying puberty. For MtoE there are obvious health issues that do not exist for MTF or FTM persons, as later in their lives they will mature physically as Females or Males without any problems. If MtoE persons puberty is stopped very early, eunuchoid gigantism may developed or voice remained high pitched. Still chemical castration would buy time for MtoE person to discuss and understood his options experience eunuchdom and proceed accordingly, making informed decisions. Becoming an eunuch early for MtoE person is as important for MtoF or FtoM person in order to live happy life.

Losethem (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:21 am My point in bringing this up is, we need to concentrate on getting these people pointed to the right kind of help. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and this is a prime example. Even doctors don't know where to send patients that bring this up, they need to learn where to send them.

Even though my doctors are well aware of my case, they have great difficulty to give me proper help. They simply don't know how to proceed. All available standards are not really applicable to me, because I'm wether MtF nor FtM, so they wonder what to do. Furthermore, they point out there is no evidence that a castration is able to help me, so it is very hard to find a way towards this. Years go by, but things are moving only very little. The doctors recognize my problem very well, but nevertheless they can't give me the help I need. It's really disappointing and makes me often feel bad.

Losethem (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:21 am My point in bringing this up is, we need to concentrate on getting these people pointed to the right kind of help. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and this is a prime example. Even doctors don't know where to send patients that bring this up, they need to learn where to send them.

GNC people are becoming much more visible. Jesus mentioned that non-binary genders were a robust topic of discussion in Amsterdam. My therapist works with a lot of trans folk and had worked with one other eunuch wannabe previously. My endocrinologist who prescribes my HRT is a trans woman who works with clients who are all over the gender map.

Even though eunuchs and nullos may not register in the public consciousness when people think about trans folk, I think a lot of people are at least becoming somewhat aware of GNC. My point is that the general consciousness seems to be shifting, especially inside WPATH. It's essential for doctors and therapists who want to have a background in sex/gender health to know enough about people like us, and if papers are being written and panels are being presented, I think the medical establishment's stigmatization of GNC people will begin lessening in the near future. People in the profession should encourage more of this kind of research.

(1) Castrated surgically in a hospital, by a urologist, days before my 49th birthday. In retrospect, I wish I had been castrated at least a decade earlier, perhaps even in my 20s, had non-binary genders been better understood--including by me.

(2) N/A

(3) I never considered myself MTF, but I never felt truly male. In fact, I did some stupid things to "prove my manhood," like enlisting in the Army Reserve. The one thing I do remember along those lines, from some of my earliest sexual thoughts, I was being penetrated by men from the front, yet I was clearly *not* a woman. Once my weight gets down to meet surgical requirements, that's going to happen. I will remain non-binary, however. Specifically, I identify as third gender. Because our culture has so little understanding of gender identities outside the binary, it took me until age 47-48 to grasp that I wasn't some unexplainable freak, and that I was actually *neither* male nor female. Again, this would have become clear to me at a much younger age, if only our culture had grasped such things earlier. As far as a eunuch identity, I knew the testicles had to go by my early to mid 40s, with increasing awareness and urgency.

(4) I did not attempt self-surgery, but I attempted various DIY means of trying to kill off the testicles that were attached to me.

For me, going on several months' trial of androgen blockers would not have accomplished much of use, aside from the degree to which they might have further shrunken the testicles attached to me. My focus wasn't on being without testosterone, but rather on being without the much-hated objects attached to me, that never should have been there from birth. I still suffer from dysphoria EVERY DAY regarding the penis attached to me, but at least it is shrinking some as a result of zero testosterone and low-dose estrogen. Since it IS a matter of huge dysphoria about the genitals currently attached to my body, I've no idea how I would ever go through a "full time living" test. It's not as if there's some magic pill out there that will make the penis still attached to me go away as a "test run."

Those of us who are non-binary gendered still present a challenge to professionals. I still wear a full beard, and so far have no intention of changing that fact. That strong "male signifier" was a bit of a hangup for my therapist and my medical professionals at first. At the same time, I am making other changes to my body to become more ambiguous in terms of gender presentation. When I finally get rid of the penis attached to me, I hope to have it inverted, but without the external labia, etc., of a woman. I'm aiming toward having no external genitals (a nullo), but having a sexually usable hole.

InkedFutureNullo (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:18 am Those of us who are non-binary gendered still present a challenge to professionals. I still wear a full beard, and so far have no intention of changing that fact. That strong "male signifier" was a bit of a hangup for my therapist and my medical professionals at first. At the same time, I am making other changes to my body to become more ambiguous in terms of gender presentation. When I finally get rid of the penis attached to me, I hope to have it inverted, but without the external labia, etc., of a woman. I'm aiming toward having no external genitals (a nullo), but having a sexually usable hole.

We have a lot in common. I too have no interest in having labia, and am quite attached to my beard! One of the first therapists I spoke to about my dysphoria asked me if I "liked having a beard" and when I said yes, that seemed to be enough evidence for her that I wasn't a good candidate for orchiectomy. ::eye roll::

Definitely feeling dysphoria around my penis the same way I did around my balls. It just hit several months ago and hasn't gone away. I admitted to BossTamsin in April that I've accepted going nullo is "a question of when, not if" and that felt good to say.

While I'm not interested in making changes to my body to appear more androgynous (other than the "minor detail" of a penectomy, LOL), I've been looking at all these gorgeous, masculine men at Pride who have beards and hairy chests but are also wearing make-up and dangly earrings and I'm thinking "Yes, that's exactly it. Sign me up."

PS: You mentioned joining the Army to prove your masculinity. I almost did that. Fortunately, lots of weightlifting and doing MMA for a couple years scratched that itch for me. I still exercise, but not with the goal of looking like Gerard Butler in 300.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

Right testicle at 28 (2007) left at 32 (2010)

Ideally immediately on the birth of my son. The pain issues I had later were not worth the trouble. I kept them around because my wife and I wanted more kids. After her hysterectomy the left one went.

I am a firm believer it should be an elective surgery, especially for anyone with prostate cancer risks. Women have radical hysterectomy oophorectomies for similar reasons. Even women as young as 18, men should have the same rights. Some prostate cancer is aggressive and hits young men.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered "eunuch"?

Not as such. If I could magically switch to a female body with all working parts I might be tempted.

I was around 19 when I went to the urologist for my first surgery scrotal exploratory that turned into an orchiopexy. When I went back to the hospital for pre-op tests the nurse assumed I was there to have the same testicle removed. I wasn't but later I floated the idea to the urologist who would not even consider it at my age. Her actual words where "you cut this one off then if you have a problem with the other one you cut it off too?" So yeah, I knew of it around that age.

JesusA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:24 am 4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

No.

I do use TRT. I am down to a half an amp of 125mg (so that should be 66.5mg) every 2 weeks now.