EA Forums

As most of you know, I have been putting together a list on the effects of castration, aimed towards those thinking of becoming eunuchs. I have had very useful help and feedback from many in the EA about this. So time for another revision.

This is because of my learning the MOST distressing news that The Fraj now regrets his decision, and is now fighting depression. I've also been reading other threads.

In theory, it is legal to have yourself castrated at age 18 or 21, depending on where you live, and assuming you can find a Physician, Doctor, or Surgeon willing to do the operation. In such cases, tthose Doctors might be more willing to prescribe chemical castration.

So I am wondering if I should do a rewrite, with a suggestion that age 25 is the cut-off date (pun intended), under which a person should try chemical castration before making the final decision for surgery?

If not 25, what age? 30? 40? Castration before age 40 increases your risk of ostreoporosis.

TS youth can have this done at age 16 in some countries and 18 in others. And that is after taking chemical castration drugs since childhood in order to prevent having a male puberty in the first place.

Hugs,

Kelly

i'm very sorry to hear that fraj is unhappy with his decision. people do lots of things that trouble them later; heck, i've been pretty annoyed with my prince albert several times when i peed on my foot. but of course, reversing a piercing is a simple procedure, and testicles cannot be reattached.

hopefully, fraj can start on HRT and reconcile himself to his status.

and if you're reading this fraj, hang in there.

TB

Andrew,

I was thinking about this very question after reading about Fraj. I've heard it said that life really doesn't even begin until 40, so perhaps such a life altering event would be best taken after that point. The problem with that is what to do with all those raging hormones that guys have from age 13 on. I know I personally would have appreciated some other way of dealing with them other than the "rosy" method.

This is not a comment on anyone in particular, I don't know enough about any person's situation in the previous posts to make any comment about their decisions.

That being said, people should realize that not all relationships last forever. Permanent modifications made at one persons request (or as a perceived desire) may not be wanted or desired in five or ten years. So make decisions carefully.

Also, my opening comments in mind, please consider the idea that maybe the doctors who insist that a person justify any drastic change in their life may be right. Not that I am unsympathetic to anyones desires. I do understand that some believe they are the wrong sex and I do understand that they need the change. But the doctors, in their experience want to be sure that the change is not going to be regreted.

So if I were to pick an age...

I knew at 15 y/o that I wanted to be a chemical engineer and that is what I became at one of the best colleges and that is what I have spent nearly 30 years working at. I've even been published in technical journals...

But I have lots of other 'regrets' about what seemed to be less important things in my life - - things I would do differently - - From the perspective of 50 some years old, those things of lesser importance seem much more important now. That is the sad fact of life is that what once seemed important when I was young is very different when viewed from 10, 20, or 30 years down the road.

Those 'regrets' might be depression (I have the classic symptoms) so I know not to act on those thoughts. At least not without professional help.

Be careful of what you desire and be even more careful of what you do when it is irreversible and permanent.

You want my opinion? The doctor that castrated The Fraj (and we all know who that is, his last name begins with a "K") is more than a little guilty in this whole thing. He castrated a very young man without a letter of recommendation from a therapist -- so who the HELL does this doctor think he is being able to perfoem mutilating surgery on young men like this?

Of course you may think The Fraj was of age, and of course he ASKED POLITELY for the surgery, but you know what? Lots of crazy people ask for lots of crazy things. And yes The Frag was / and or is crazy in the sense that he was at a minimum depressed, and prone to self mutilation.

There are therapies and medications for what the Fraj was/is suffering from. Having two very important pieces of his anatomy chopped off obviously wasn't the solution to his problems -- now he's not only a depressed young man, he's an impotent depressed young man who is probably sprouting little embarrasing man-boobs (which, by the time he's in his 40's, will be positively pendulous) and with a penis that is slowly retracting into his body.

OK now is when everyone jumps in and says "Well, you're mileage may vary" -- but everything I've learned about having no testicles leads me to state the above.

Is there ANY case of anyone under about 50 years old being castrated who is actually HAPPY with the operation? I haven't heard of one (aside from the occasional transvestite, but that's different than a eunuch).

one person I know of started in his late 30's and it took five years but she is now back in the same profession and happy as a woman.

Wow, sticking your head above the parapit on this question is difficult!

The fiction stories and some Guy's nicks/ids in the Chatroom suggest they are

young and very aroused etc by this subject. In my opinion there are probably young people born the wrong sex who are getting the right help from the right people whom they should be - but clearly young TS's have so many hurdles to cross and I salute their courage and hope they get full social and medical support, of course. I salute older people also adjusting their gender.

There is alot of fantasy stuff which often revolves around some ideal stud who is super hung and then chopped; such stories may make good 2 minute friction material for readers but men should walk into this fully aware of the life changing consequences. Sex was never my forte as a young man, but I enjoyed my daily orgasms and erections and young men should enjoy their libido but when other's are involved always practising safe sex, please!

For adult men, I think this is an issue that possibly relates to the menopause.

Do you agree that around 35+, certainly over 40, most of us become aware

that either we've become impotent or that possibly the thrill of waking erections etc has worn over thin? Starting off as a Chemical Eunuch, under the supervision of a Dr and with the appropriate blood etc tests, gives a man the opportunity to fully experience the totally new changes that they would face from surgical action, but choosing a chemical route enables you to decide not to proceed also. Men who start on the chemical route are far less prone to feelings of deep depression because nothing is immediately permanent. Indeed they may well feel "Eunuch Calm", whether or not this leads to surgery, who knows? If it does, the chances are that all feelings/thoughts/attitudes have been considered first.

Incidentally, one man's horror at "sprouting little embarrassing man-boobs" and "retracting penises", can be a source of contentment and comfort to the

person who has chosen and desires both

This is a very difficult question to address and there is no single answer.

First and foremost though throw out all thoughts of fantasy before consideration. Fantasy castration can be "enjoyed" by the virile man concentrating on it in as many orgasms as he wishes, over and over and over.

Don't rule out fantasy but never, ever mix it with reality!

gosh fellas, when luvpain attempted his own castration, there were replies decrying the fact that almost no docs will do an elective castration without oodles of letters from mental health professionals. now there are letters disparaging dr. kimmel for accommodating someone's request.

freedom includes the opportunity to make decisions that we later regret.

TB

(planned to teach all my life. then i did my student-teaching and decided i hate the little high school weasels. now happily working in law enforcement.)

This thread really has people talking!

Okay, for TS people, the younger the better for them (pre-puberty even), but they get replacement hormones which are still physically important. The TS people I know who are indistiguishable from their gender orientation all started young. A 40-year old physical male who decides to transition to female is going to need a lot of work and will never quite get the full distance.

For eunuchhood, since you don't get much HRT, you need to wait until you are physically full grown. Castration without HRT at a young age will seriously affect growth and cause physical problems. I would say 18 minimum.

However, 25 is a long time for those who desire castration for overactive libido. Every year is hell and potential to get into serious trouble in those years. Your life is actually wasted until you get castrated.

The only big regret a person can have over castration is not having kids. So if someone is to wait, that should be what they wait for. However, if you are transexual or non-sexual, it is difficult to expect that you would have kids naturally. But I would still at least pay to have some sperm preserved, etc. Also note that many people nowadays don't have kids anyway, but that does not mean their life is over.

Maybe the Fraj can comment on his depression. Everyone regrets several things in their life -- that is not a big deal. Depression can also be medically based, so maybe he needs treatment for that. I would like to hear from him.

You see,

This is the reason why doctors prefer NOT to do this procedure.

Wrong decision...BINGO! Doctor's fault, find a Great White legal shark and see if we can draw some blood from those deep pockets...

A-1

2Beunuch (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:09 pm You want my opinion? The doctor that castrated The Fraj (and we all know who that is, his last name begins with a "K") is more than a little guilty in this whole thing. He castrated a very young man without a letter of recommendation from a therapist -- so who the HELL does this doctor think he is being able to perfoem mutilating surgery on young men like this?

Of course you may think The Fraj was of age, and of course he ASKED POLITELY for the surgery, but you know what? Lots of crazy people ask for lots of crazy things. And yes The Frag was / and or is crazy in the sense that he was at a minimum depressed, and prone to self mutilation.

There are therapies and medications for what the Fraj was/is suffering from. Having two very important pieces of his anatomy chopped off obviously wasn't the solution to his problems -- now he's not only a depressed young man, he's an impotent depressed young man who is probably sprouting little embarrasing man-boobs (which, by the time he's in his 40's, will be positively pendulous) and with a penis that is slowly retracting into his body.

OK now is when everyone jumps in and says "Well, you're mileage may vary" -- but everything I've learned about having no testicles leads me to state the above.

Is there ANY case of anyone under about 50 years old being castrated who is actually HAPPY with the operation? I haven't heard of one (aside from the occasional transvestite, but that's different than a eunuch).

Time for me to put in my 2 cents worth.

TheFraj arived in Philly on a Tuesday I think, I arived that Friday, the three of us, TheFraj, Luvpain and me. I got into town in the afternoon and went to see Dr Kimmel first thing, joined by my friends Luvpain and thefraj. TheFraj was castrated the following Monday. Over the weekend I had a lot of time to ask him if he was sure he would not regret his actions. His folks had done the same thing for several months.

Dr Kimmel questioned me for about 45 minutes before castration and I am 57, he did the same with TF.

I guess my anger comes in, in that you were not there, I was. You dont know Dr Kimmel, I Do. There is nobody that could have made TF change his mind, no one. I know, we tried.

Should there be a procedure for a person that wished to be castrated? Yes I think so. I was chemically castrated for a year before castration, TF several months. I have stated many times to take castration on a test drive before surgery.

So I guess my question to you is this?

When are you going to go to the medical community and suggest a plan to which a person can be castrated?

I awate your answer.

hmmmm

This is the only forum that I know where we have such a group of eunuchs and those that wish to be. What is our responsability to the world to step up to the plate and put ourselfs on the line and edicuate the medical comunity?

Again I awate your answer.

hmmmm

No one said you would have a perfect life, I think its time to take responsibility for your own actions and quit trying to blame someone else.

I dont have the answer.

Friends,

Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

There is no case law on this subject to set a legal precidence.

SO, all medical practitioners engaging in this procedure are in unknown territory, legally. To say the least, it makes most of them antsy...

In addition, although the effects of castration are well known, the psychological/psychiatric aspects of such patients are pretty much undocumented medically, in psychology and in psychiatry.

Furthermore, when documentation exists, it always involves those who 'regret' their decision because those who are satisfied are not about to complain. Bias is not a new concept to this or any other phenomenon.

I have spent lots of time here attempting to help Krister and others convince people to take responsibility for their actions. This is where the trail leads on this subject...RESPONSIBILITY.

Doctors are responsible and most are very uneasy about castrating a young, healthy male. Perhaps the E.A. as a group should approach the medical community and ask them to study this issue. Unbiased research into this phenomenon should be conducted and perhaps the male "fascination with the fantasy" can be analized, catagorized and classified.

No doubt there are some who desired this, who have had it done and who moved on and are living with the results without the major problems being experienced by the Fraj.

Like I constantly say, once these things are cut off, they will not grow back.

Jesus, if you read this please offer your comments.

Thanks...

A-1

A-1 (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:56 am Like I constantly say, once these things are cut off, they will not grow back.

They don't grow back!?! I thought they grew back bigger ...

Okay, so back to the original question.

For TS castration, there is already a standard of care that specifies a protocol for determining suitability of a person for sex reassignment. So we don't need to discuss that.

For other eunuchs, there is no standard of care. So it is worthwhile discussing what it could/should be. The TS standard of care is close, but there are two problems I see with applying it to other eunuchs: (1) TS get female hormone replacement while eunuchs ideally want none, (2) TS have to "live as a female" for a set time while "living as a eunuch" is not really a socially accepted orientation.

My suggestion for a eunuch standard of care is as follows. Start with the one for TS. However, the minimum age should be set at the age where people are finished their growth (maybe 21?) and are also age of majority. Furthermore, the eunuch should "live as a eunuch" by using medically administered chemical castration for a period equal to that required by a TS person.

Perhaps someone can write up a draft of such a standard of care?

The remaining tricky part is the psychiatric referral. I think there are several psychiatrists that would approve it, but there is not enough literature/study right now to form a basis. To do my part, I have been making the psychiatrists that talk to me aware of the extent of this issue (i.e. castration desire) to prod them to study it further.

The Fraj obviously had a depression-related castration fixation. He could have eliminated testosterone from his body several different ways (as apparently he did for awhile). I hope the science of chemical castration advances or is made more available to those who want electivce castration. Already there are advanced chemical castrations involving small subcutaneous shots that lost for an entire year or more (the "Lupron" class of drugs). Right now they are extremely expensive as they are prescribed mostly and mainly for those dying of prostate cancer. So for those people, dropping $1,000 or more per shot is nothing compared to the alternative. But hopefully once the companies are done squeezing the cancer crowd of it's money they'll look to other markets -- like chemical castration of prisoners and hypersexuals. I think a $500 one-shot year-long chemical castration injection would be wonderful for anyone contemplating castration. And for those wanting permanent castration, they could just come in for their yearly shot, maybe make it a New Year's tradition. There are also "immunocastration" technologies on the horizon, already being used in animal studies. This is the "promised land" of castration as far as I can see -- one simple shot that immunizes your body from testosterone, inducing permanent chemical hypogonadism. This simple shot will take the wind out of your sail, the lead out of your pencil, and make having any sort of sexuality completely optional -- you could get testosterone shots of you wish to remain active, if not just do nothing and be happy with your flaccid penis and deactivated testicles. You'll be a completely calm, asexual "stealth eunuch" in the sense that nobody will ever have to know that you've shut down your genitals for good. Just a quick trip to the doctor, one small injection and you'll be impotent within weeks, asexual within months. I think when this technology is widely available castration will be used more and more in a variety of settings and institutions. It could be mandatory for release from prison for sexually violent offenders -- and I would argue it be used upon first offence. A simple shot will eliminate most if not all public objections to castration -- it will percieved more as "treatment" and those who recieve it will consider it treatment as well. Most of the "punishment" of current castration involves the physical removal of the testicles, the main organs of male sexuality. Once males learn they can be asexualized without any surgery or change in external appearence, being castrated will be like getting a flu shot.

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:14 am Okay, so back to the original question.

For TS castration, there is already a standard of care that specifies a protocol for determining suitability of a person for sex reassignment. So we don't need to discuss that.

For other eunuchs, there is no standard of care. So it is worthwhile discussing what it could/should be. The TS standard of care is close, but there are two problems I see with applying it to other eunuchs: (1) TS get female hormone replacement while eunuchs ideally want none, (2) TS have to "live as a female" for a set time while "living as a eunuch" is not really a socially accepted orientation.

My suggestion for a eunuch standard of care is as follows. Start with the one for TS. However, the minimum age should be set at the age where people are finished their growth (maybe 21?) and are also age of majority. Furthermore, the eunuch should "live as a eunuch" by using medically administered chemical castration for a period equal to that required by a TS person.

Perhaps someone can write up a draft of such a standard of care?

The remaining tricky part is the psychiatric referral. I think there are several psychiatrists that would approve it, but there is not enough literature/study right now to form a basis. To do my part, I have been making the psychiatrists that talk to me aware of the extent of this issue (i.e. castration desire) to prod them to study it further.

"

2Beunuch (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:58 am Once males learn they can be asexualized without any surgery or change in external appearence, being castrated will be like getting a flu shot.

"

A shot is quite private. I learned that when I got HRT earlier this year (2003). It changed my perception and enjoyment of life. No one ever asked about it. Still, it took the doctors a long time to respond to my complaints--a test that showed my testosterone level was extremely low jolted the HRT. However, years of my complaining and my former wife complaining about my low libido got me nowhere.

"

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:14 am The remaining tricky part is the psychiatric referral. I think there are several psychiatrists that would approve it, but there is not enough literature/study right now to form a basis. To do my part, I have been making the psychiatrists that talk to me aware of the extent of this issue (i.e. castration desire) to prod them to study it further.

"

Doctors seem slow to learn.

SplitDik Sez...

A-1 (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:56 am Like I constantly say, once these thing

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 7:59 am s are cut off, they will not grow back.

They don

't grow back!?! I thought they grew back bigger ...

Nope, that don't happen unless they is keloids and you don't cut it all out. So, cut it all out...y'all...



Really, though, it is no laughing matter.But Keloids ain't cancer, cancer is Baaaaaaddddd... nuthin' to joke about...ya don't have a choice with cancer if you want to live long and prosper...

A-1

Falcon (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:12 pm freedom includes the opportunity to make decisions that we later regret.

I think it's good that this topic was named "suggested age limit" instead of "age limit"; I fully agree with the above quote about freedom.

In general, the subject is the one who has to live with the consequences of getting castrated, or the consequences of not getting castrated. So the final decision should be that of the subject.

Is TheFraj willing to tell us more about why he ended up regretting his castration, despite having tried out chemical castration for a few months (and apparently really liking it), indications that he should not have gotten castrated that he may have missed, etc.?

Voluntary castration involves an inherent psychological risk, which is like "everything else.". :hearthrob

Well, this has certainly been an enlightening thread. I want to thank all who have replied. To get back to square one, the purpose of this thread was to discuss a slight re-write of my "effects of castration".

In light of this thread, here is my SUGGESTED rewrite of two of the items. Again, your comments and input will be welcomed.

@@@



Osteoporosis should be your #2 concern. Your chances of getting this disease are greater if you were castrated before the age of 40. Castration before age 25 may involve additional problems as your body has not yet finished its post-puberty growth. You should take at least 1,500 MG of calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D daily. Shortly before or after castration, you should have a bone density scan, and after that a scan every two years. A proper diet and exercise program will help in the battle against osteoporosis.

DEPRESSION! This MUST be your #1 concern. Post-surgical depression is very likely as your testosterone levels crash. Chronic depression IS a major concern, and MAY require professional therapy (including antidepressants) before, during, and after the surgery. You need to consider the issue of depression BEFORE castration. If it is an issue before hand, it will almost certainly become a much larger one afterward. Castration before age 25 greatly increases your risk. Some eunuchs may have to take various amounts of testosterone to alleviate depression and other problems.

This seems clear and helpful to me. I would add a comma here: involve additional problems,

Andrew (imported) wrote: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:54 am as your body has not yet finished

Well, this has certainly been an enlightening thread. I want to thank all who have replied. To get back to square one, the purpose of this thread was to discuss a slight re-write of my "effects of castration".

In light of this thread, here is my SUGGESTED rewrite of two of the items. Again, your comments and input will be welcomed.

@@@



Osteoporosis should be your #2 concern. Your chances of getting this disease are greater if you were castrated before the age of 40. Castration before age 25 may involve additional problems as your body has not yet finished its post-puberty growth. You should take at least 1,500 MG of calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D daily. Shortly before or after castration, you should have a bone density scan, and after that a scan every two years. A proper diet and exercise program will help in the battle against osteoporosis.

DEPRESSION! This MUST be your #1 concern. Post-surgical depression is very likely as your testosterone levels crash. Chronic depression IS a major concern, and MAY require professional therapy (including antidepressants) before, during, and after the surgery. You need to consider the issue of depression BEFORE castration. If it is an issue before hand, it will almost certainly become a much larger one afterward. Castration before age 25 greatly increases your risk. Some eunuchs may have to take various amounts of testosterone to alleviate depression and other problems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Beunuch (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:58 am The Fraj obviously had a depression-related castration fixation. He could have eliminated testosterone from his body several different ways (as apparently he did for awhile). I hope the science of chemical castration advances or is made more available to those who want electivce castration. Already there are advanced chemical castrations involving small subcutaneous shots that lost for an entire year or more (the "Lupron" class of drugs). Right now they are extremely expensive as they are prescribed mostly and mainly for those dying of prostate cancer. So for those people, dropping $1,000 or more per shot is nothing compared to the alternative. But hopefully once the companies are done squeezing the cancer crowd of it's money they'll look to other markets -- like chemical castration of prisoners and hypersexuals. I think a $500 one-shot year-long chemical castration injection would be wonderful for anyone contemplating castration. And for those wanting permanent castration, they could just come in for their yearly shot, maybe make it a New Year's tradition. There are also "immunocastration" technologies on the horizon, already being used in animal studies. This is the "promised land" of castration as far as I can see -- one simple shot that immunizes your body from testosterone, inducing permanent chemical hypogonadism. This simple shot will take the wind out of your sail, the lead out of your pencil, and make having any sort of sexuality completely optional -- you could get testosterone shots of you wish to remain active, if not just do nothing and be happy with your flaccid penis and deactivated testicles. You'll be a completely calm, asexual "stealth eunuch" in the sense that nobody will ever have to know that you've shut down your genitals for good. Just a quick trip to the doctor, one small injection and you'll be impotent within weeks, asexual within months. I think when this technology is widely available castration will be used more and more in a variety of settings and institutions. It could be mandatory for release from prison for sexually violent offenders -- and I would argue it be used upon first offence. A simple shot will eliminate most if not all public objections to castration -- it will percieved more as "treatment" and those who recieve it will consider it treatment as well. Most of the "punishment" of current castration involves the physical removal of the testicles, the main organs of male sexuality. Once males learn they can be asexualized without any surgery or change in external appearence, being castrated will be like getting a flu shot.

************************************************** ******

Reality Check... [

2B, My friend,

This had another name in the early 1900's

It was called eugenics.

Of course, I realize that the verbage is changed significantly, but the effect is the same in the end.

2 legal issues here,

1. Civil Rights Act of 1964

2. 1st Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.

...and that is without pulling out the law books...there are many others and tons of case law, not to mention Civil Lawsuits where somebody paid victims BIGTIME...

Of course, the Patriot Act notwithstanding, the Supreme Court will never go for this one. Especially in light of the fact that DNA tests have revealed recently that innocent convicts have spent upwards of 20 years in prison doing life terms sometimes eye-witnesses have mis-identified them.

Also, death row inmates have been found innocent because of DNA testing, and no telling what technology might do next. (at least a Jurist may look at it from that standpoint)

It might make a nice story-line though if somebody wants to write it up.

Research is the key, though, take a look here...

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/q5dna26.htm

Not all "RAILROADING" involves diesel locomotives and heavy equipment.

Good Day, gentlemen

A-1

Good point, involuntary castration requires human rights violations that undermine most of what we explore here.

[/b][/i]

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:30 pm ************************************************** ******

Reality Check... [

2B, My friend,

This had another name in the early 1900's

It was called eugenics.

Of course, I realize that the verbage is changed significantly, but the effect is the same in the end.

2 legal issues here,

1. Civil Right Act of 1964

2. 1st Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.

...and that is without pulling out the law books...

Of course, the Patriot Act notwithstanding, the Supreme Court will never go for this one. Especially in light of the fact that DNA have revealed recently that innocent convicts have spent upwards of 20 years in prison doing life terms sometimes eye-witnesses have mis-identified them.

Also, death row inmates have been found innocent because of DNA testing, and no telling what technology might do next. (at least a Jurist may look at it from that standpoint)

It might make a nice story-line though if somebody wants to write it up.

Research is the key, though, take a look here...

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/q5dna26.htm

Not all "RAILROADING" involves diesel locomotives and heavy equipment.

Good Day, gentlemen

A-1

Yea, they will railroad all of us into some work camp. They will say that we lacked the balls for whatever they wanted us to do that we didn't do.