EA Forums

Posted: **Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:49 pm**

Due to new laws being proposed offenders could face a maximum of 3 years in prison for downloading violent sexual images or content of a violent sexual nature. (which I can only assume will include castration).

"We know from that particular case, the horrendous case of Jane Longhurst ... that these images do have an impact, do feed the fantasies in certain individuals," said Paul Goggins, UK Home Office Minister.

Interested parties have until Dec. 2 to comment on the consultation paper. It would then be drafted into a bill and would have to pass through Parliament before taking effect.

Mr Goggins also said such images were "extremely offensive to the vast majority" and had no place in society.

And went on to say:

"These forms of violent and abusive pornography go far beyond what we allow to be shown in films or even sold in licensed sex shops in the UK, so they should not be available online either."

Although this law is primarily targetting Necrophillia, and Bestiality it covers a broad range and is also designed to target sexual violence against individuals. which - must surely include castration?

BBC News Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4195332.stm)

CNN News (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/30/uk.internet/)

Daily Mail Article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770)

I have to say if it takes effect, I've no idea where it leaves the UK members of eunuch.org?

In the most extreme case: do I become a criminal because I am in possession of photos of my own procedure? Since they are violent, and could (by some) be considered sexual.

Anyone have any thoughts? I'm terrified!

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:52 am**

Yes, all of us in the UK are terrified as this once Great Britain continues to descend into the Dark Ages- as if things were not bad enough already! I could well go to prison in the next few months for the only crime of LOOKING at pictures which offend the bloody Obscene Publications Act which came through the Internet.

I always believed that it is a basic Human Right for my sexuality to be nobody's business but my own. Don't get me wrong, I would be the first in the queue to condem anybody who harmed a child (or an adult) THEN prison is justified and throw away the key- BUT there is little or no evidence to show that harm can be caused just by viewing porno material either by the Internet or any other means- and what about the other enlightened countries (even in the EU) whom view this material in thousands- it certainly does not lead to child abuse or sex deviation as a consequence as it should do according to these so called "experts."

However like everything else in the UK at the moment there is nobody that can take a lead and fight back, just wish that there was!

Quillman UK

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:27 pm**

BME might well become illegal in UK, but I doubt that eunuch.org would. That's because they are primarily targeting images, which the EA judiciously does not serve. Even if they wanted to broaden their scope to written word, I'm sure they'll be overwhelmed trying to censor the bestiality and S&M images and we'll be safe.

While I am all for freedom of expression and sexual orientation, I think society does have to make some safe places for those who would rather stay mainstream. That's why I fully support the idea of the .xxx domain.

Also, there is definitely porn being made that exploits people. Very few of the women actually enjoy what they're doing (I know quite a few because Vancouver is actually one of the largest porn producing cities in the world). Bestiality and pedophilia of course deal with "actors" that can't legally consent to what is being done to them.

So society does have a right to (a) put edgy stuff in an out of the way place and (b) enforce anti-exploitation.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:48 am**

thefraj (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:49 pm Due to new laws being proposed offenders could face a maximum of 3 years in prison for downloading violent sexual images or content of a violent sexual nature. (which I can only assume will include castration).

"We know from that particular case, the horrendous case of Jane Longhurst ... that these images do have an impact, do feed the fantasies in certain individuals," said Paul Goggins, UK Home Office Minister.

Interested parties have until Dec. 2 to comment on the consultation paper. It would then be drafted into a bill and would have to pass through Parliament before taking effect.

Mr Goggins also said such images were "extremely offensive to the vast majority" and had no place in society.

And went on to say:

"These forms of violent and abusive pornography go far beyond what we allow to be shown in films or even sold in licensed sex shops in the UK, so they should not be available online either."

Although this law is primarily targetting Necrophillia, and Bestiality it covers a broad range and is also designed to target sexual violence against individuals. which - must surely include castration?

BBC News Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4195332.stm)

CNN News (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/30/uk.internet/)

Daily Mail Article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770)

I have to say if it takes effect, I've no idea where it leaves the UK members of eunuch.org?

In the most extreme case: do I become a criminal because I am in possession of photos of my own procedure? Since they are violent, and could (by some) be considered sexual.

Anyone have any thoughts? I'm terrified!

Damn Roger, does that mean they could come after me? I know I am in some of those pictures as well. If we were to loose our UK friends I think I would be very disappointed in both countries, yours and mine. Much of the laws and attitude of the people of the UK and USA are the same, you were right to call them father and son. If it starts their look for the USA to follow, they seem to do that.

Censership laws of any kind are wrong; censership should be applied at the personal level.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:08 am**

Hehe, well - to be fair - you were never involved in any of the actual "violence" (unless, of course hugs count!)

And I'm holding my breath to see the exact wording of the bill - that could make all the difference; whether members here are persecuted could hang on a single word:

consider:

Images of a violent sexual nature

Content of a violent sexual nature

But no matter what happens, as long as people here in the UK can stick together like glue, and not allow a single member to be taken away, I'm sure things will work out fine.

I feel it's like the poem written by Pastor Martin Niemöller in the Second World War:

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:24 am**

That is ONE good thing about living in the USA - I can buy all the guns and ammo I want, and no one will say a thing about it. So that when 'they' come for me, I can take a few of them out with me!

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:45 am**

Curious--Can a website like eunuch.org (or, for that matter, BME) be partitioned, so that a sanitized version can be sent to ip addresses specific to a country like the UK, and the full version can be sent to places without restrictive laws? According to what I have read, something like this is done by the Chinese government so that certain types of content never reach users in the People's Republic. Come to think of it, though, I don't think ip addresses are necessarily specific to individual countries.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:51 am**

Members in the U.S. should not for one minute think that this can not happen to them. There are forces at work right now to limit what subjects can and can not be publicly discussed or which images can or can not be shown. Any subject can be defined as "pornography" or as "obscenity" since both terms seem to have no concrete meaning but are entirely subjective. --FLO--

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:11 am**

Hehe, well, I think in all seriousness, theres something to be said about politically polarising this argument, no matter which party in your home country you support. I think we can all agree we should be free to think the thoughts we do, and have a right to who we are (even though other citizens may disagree... that's the whole point of democracy!)

(I'm not suggesting using a deserted farm for training how to kill civilians who refuse to recognise our right to exist!), but in case any country decides to try and persecute members, we would have an international pool of support that no single government could break up. We have a vested interest in each others' wellfare. Especially in foriegn nations.

---

Hehe, kind of like an international rights group...and We could even have a cool logo like:

http://thefraj.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/un-butterfly.jpg

(Eunuchted Nations?)

Hehe, okay I'm done being silly!

~Rog.

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:26 am**

Paolo wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:24 am That is ONE good thing about living in the USA - I can buy all the guns and ammo I want, and no one will say a thing about it. So that when 'they' come for me, I can take a few of them out with me!

some of us are already getting ready for that day

for it will come

and paolo if the goverment thought they could get away with outlawing guns they would.

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:45 pm**

Hmmm, I have to beg to differ with the photos taken. There was no "SEX" involved they were proceedural and documentary photos of a surgical proceedure and healing.

And all my other ones usually fall under piercing proceedures.

That's what I would argure.

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:13 pm**

I hope so, Luvpain. I pray they do see it this way. The problem is that some people may find them arousing (even if that's not the reason they were taken!)

Imagine a woman trampling a man. Some people find that arousing, even though there may be no indication the man getting trampled is sexually aroused (presumably he'd be enjoying it, or else he would be there!)

So even though, no sex act is being performed, and not even necessarily any nudity, nor any gratification. It could still be termed "sexual violence" because some may find it violent, and because the viewer may find it sexually arousing (even if the photographer may not have!)

---

But I suspect you may be right (I really hope so!). My fear is, that this argument may need to be saved for a defense case at court, not a means of avoiding this law.

I suppose the bottom line is that violence, and sexual are very subjective, and could be in the eye of the beholder alone. Defending against allegations of a crime based on thoughts and mindset alone in court is something nobody should have to do in free nations.

George Orwells 1984!

~Rog

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:48 pm**

Well as for Piercings and Castration photos done properly Violence and abusive should not be an issue. Yeah some people find them to be sexual stimulating, but piercings are done everyday and are not violent. A castration preformed by a Doctor wouldn't be violent or abusive, and even most done by "skilled cutters" are not.

Now I could see the photos I have of my CBT especially with the needles stuck in my testicles as having some problems. Although that was self done and the scene was not violent or abusive, although they could argue it was abusing my body. Although somewhere I have a video of me doing it which would prove I was doing it myself and basiclly enjoying it.

Hopefully it doesn't have to come down to using this argument in court, but I'm pretty sure if you had a good lawyer it could work.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:36 am**

Sorry chaps, but the position is already grave and hopeless- forget that rubbish about consultation- (we surely didn't expect them to actually DO that exercise did we??) it has now become impossible to get BME at all now in the UK, and I am expecting the Eunuch Archive to be the next- mark my words!

You can be put in prison in the UK just for what you have in your brain- the so called Human Rights (EU) legislation is completely ignored- at least the US has the Bill of Rights. No wonder the UK continues to be the laughing stock of Europe with it's outdated attitude to sexual matters, and there is not a bloody thing we can do about it- and it stinks!

Cheers while I can still say it-

Quillman UK

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:03 pm**

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:27 pm That's why I fully support the idea of the .xxx domain.

I never thought of that, but that's BLOODY SMART!!! I like it! Good luck getting it to work, but it wouls certainly limit the problem of children looking up for instance "US History" and coming up with porn. Make it easy to filter. I love the idea!!! good thinkin!!! *wink*

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:08 pm**

Quillman, you're not alone. I couldn't access EA for a whole day not so long ago. Internet Explorer just said "Page Cannot Be found", and Mozilla Firefox gave an even more bizarre message "Banned due to sexually explicit content". I don't know what caused this, but it cleared after about 6 hours. I wasn't able to PING www.eunuch.org either! Which is when I figured something fundamental was up! But this could have just been "internet turbulance" not related to this legal issue, I don't know.

------

If it happens, there is a remedy! Even if you know for a fact your country is denied access to a specific server

Google "Public Proxy" and click the first link you find. Choose a proxy IP that is "High Anonymity" and from outside the UK...

If you're using Internet Explorer click:

Tools->Internet Options->Connections->Lan Settings

If you're using Mozilla Firefox

Tools->Options->Connection Settings

Click the checkbox to enable Proxy, and enter the IP and socket address here.

Access will be slower, and some proxies will ban some websites (some of them balk at the word "eunuch" or "castration") but many are fine.

-----------------

The internet was designed by the Americans in case of a Soviet nuclear strike in the 70's, and it would be impossible for any government to block access entirely. The system works too well! LOL

------------------

Quillman -- just an edit. BME works fine from my machine, but if - as you say, access is blocked, it is likely done on the ISP-level, so this is exactly the kind of symptoms that will gradually become more widespread. So it will depend on your service provider. I'm on Blueyonder... 82.42.x.x

-----

[Another edit!] Just wanted to say you're right Patient, I'm unable to ping now, even though I can access the website okay. So this must have not been related to the accessing problems!

Posted: **Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:02 am**

thefraj (imported) wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:08 pm I wasn't able to PING www.eunuch.org either!

In my experience there are two likely causes of failure to ping:

1. The server you are trying to reach has been configured to refuse to respond to a ping request. In this case you are not going to get a ping response until the configuration is changed.

2. The address resolution tables available to your host do not contain an entry for the domain you are trying to reach. Because these tables are dynamic this situation may "go away" after a while, but if your ISP is blocking this domain you won't get relief until they change their policy or you replace them.

.

Posted: **Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:35 am**

Uncle Flo (imported) wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:51 am Members in the U.S. should not for one minute think that this can not happen to them. There are forces at work right now to limit what subjects can and can not be publicly discussed or which images can or can not be shown. Any subject can be defined as "pornography" or as "obscenity" since both terms seem to have no concrete meaning but are entirely subjective. --FLO--

For just that reason, BME has moved to a Canadian server

Posted: **Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:21 pm**

Well i for one would be prepared to fight for my right to access the archive.....as it is a lifeline for many people and cannot really be placed under an obscene sight as it does not list pictures of violent acts and could almost be classed as a factual sight that offers support and advice.

As for BME i have to admit i do not really access that as it does not hold much interest to me to see pics of severe medical procedures....OK it has some fantastic pictures of piecings and tattoo's but for me pics of actual castrations etc is not for me.

I would also like to see how they will police it!

There are plenty of sights hosted in Amsterdam that are classed as containing obscene material including interspecies sexual practices....so i doubt this is to much to worry about but it will be interesting to see what happens.

Posted: **Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:20 am**

Sadly I have to say that you will be wrong if my experience with the Police is anything to go by (currently awaiting possible trial) just for what I have in my brain- really doing me in! Unfortunately this once proud Nation has made itself the laughing stock of Europe and the rest of the World with it's outdated and ridiculous Obscenity Laws, UK citizens can be put in prison for the most menial of charges (including mine) only last week some chap was given a suspended sentence for lying about a Qualification for a job, and other blokes like me are already serving terms in prison because they just want to look at nude photographs of children innocently posing without any kind of sexual activity- absolutely crazy! At least the US has got the First (?) amendment, our Bill of Human Rights is blatantly ignored as our bloody Government actively seeks to populate our already overcrowded prisons.

I wish I could share your enthusiasm to "fight for Rights" but it is already a lost cause - this so called consultation exercise (this Government has a long record of consultation- equally long record of ignoring the results) and NO ONE will grasp the nettle to defend our beliefs. Amsterdam has always been a shining example to the rest of Europe whereas Britain has to be the worse by far.

What I also said was that the censorship of BME and like sites has already started, it is impossible to subscribe to the BME site now, the UK pulls the plug with the one hand and debates the issue with the other.

I will give you one example of how stupid the UK censorship has become. Some while ago I purchased from a High Street Store an illustrated book for children on sex and growing up, quite charming and quite innocent as you might expect. The British Authoress is very well known in the UK and frequently appears on TV. However I happened to work in France for a week and when visiting a French Supermarket noticed the SAME book but in French. The pictures however were different and far more revealing especially in detailed genitalia of the boy and girl involved, an absolutely beautiful book- presumably if the book had been discovered in my possession at the Port, I could have been arrested- now HOW CRAZY (and depressing) IS THAT??

Sorry to be so negative, but I fear things are going to get worse rather than any better.

Cheers

Quillman UK

Posted: **Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:01 pm**

Quillman (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:20 am Sadly I have to say that you will be wrong if my experience with the Police is anything to go by (currently awaiting possible trial) just for what I have in my brain- really doing me in! Unfortunately this once proud Nation has made itself the laughing stock of Europe and the rest of the World with it's outdated and ridiculous Obscenity Laws, UK citizens can be put in prison for the most menial of charges (including mine) only last week some chap was given a suspended sentence for lying about a Qualification for a job, and other blokes like me are already serving terms in prison because they just want to look at nude photographs of children innocently posing without any kind of sexual activity- absolutely crazy! At least the US has got the First (?) amendment, our Bill of Human Rights is blatantly ignored as our bloody Government actively seeks to populate our already overcrowded prisons.

I wish I could share your enthusiasm to "fight for Rights" but it is already a lost cause - this so called consultation exercise (this Government has a long record of consultation- equally long record of ignoring the results) and NO ONE will grasp the nettle to defend our beliefs. Amsterdam has always been a shining example to the rest of Europe whereas Britain has to be the worse by far.

What I also said was that the censorship of BME and like sites has already started, it is impossible to subscribe to the BME site now, the UK pulls the plug with the one hand and debates the issue with the other.

I will give you one example of how stupid the UK censorship has become. Some while ago I purchased from a High Street Store an illustrated book for children on sex and growing up, quite charming and quite innocent as you might expect. The British Authoress is very well known in the UK and frequently appears on TV. However I happened to work in France for a week and when visiting a French Supermarket noticed the SAME book but in French. The pictures however were different and far more revealing especially in detailed genitalia of the boy and girl involved, an absolutely beautiful book- presumably if the book had been discovered in my possession at the Port, I could have been arrested- now HOW CRAZY (and depressing) IS THAT??

Sorry to be so negative, but I fear things are going to get worse rather than any better.

Cheers

Quillman UK

I agree what are things comming to?

Posted: **Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:09 pm**

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:27 pm Also, there is definitely porn being made that exploits people. Very few of the women actually enjoy what they're doing (I know quite a few because Vancouver is actually one of the largest porn producing cities in the world).

Hey, a job's a job, right? I'd sure enjoy getting paid, if not the business itself. I think anything you do over a hundred times a year can start to get pretty tedious, regardless of how fun and exciting it is for most people. Do what you're satisfied with, what makes you feel useful I say. If that's porn, then gung ho.

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:27 pm So society does have a right to (a) put edgy stuff in an out of the way place and (b) enforce anti-exploitation.

I don't agree with (a), but (b) is definitely true. My biggest worry with illegal obscenity is that they target the wrong people. Plus it's kind of a double standard. Can I possess a picture of kids getting sliced apart by exploding shrapnel? But not one of a dog's thingy going off? And how do you connect 'possess' with 'support'? People who honestly want to be rid of these things have to have possessed and observed them to make that judgement, right?

I say, the crime comes from supporting exploitive activities. Possession doesn't matter, since the pictures themselves can do no more harm. What you download off the net doesn't matter: it doesn't help the criminals at all. What you pay to download though, and where you put your money does matter. If we must discourage taboo sex, we should follow the money, not the communication.

And really... if we would condemn and persecute people who through loan sharking, opportunist real estate extortion rackets, and price fixing forced people into poverty and slavery, then that would fix the problem of people forced into sexual things against their will right there. Empower the whores, and you'll see the ones who are in the wrong industry, leaving to do other things that actually give them job satisfaction.

Posted: **Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:16 am**

polecat (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:09 pm I say, the crime comes from supporting exploitive activities. Possession doesn't matter, since the pictures themselves can do no more harm. What you download off the net doesn't matter: it doesn't help the criminals at all. What you pay to download though, and where you put your money does matter. If we must discourage taboo sex, we should follow the money, not the communication. . . Empower the whores, and you'll see the ones who are in the wrong industry leaving to do other things that actually give them job satisfaction.

You are really very close to the truth here, polecat, congatulations! There are two classes of criminals here: the people who do the exploitation and the people who finance it. The latter provide part of the motive and all of the profit of the former. In a primitive but just society they would both be hanged. In the present society they often escape because "it's too hard" to catch and prosecute them.

.

Posted: **Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:20 am**

Q.,

You're right in that things are probably going to get worse.

Historically, however, they can only get SO bad before they swing back in the other direction, which Jesus here on the Boards reminded me of the other night.

Small comfort? Yeah, for us...considering we'll be dead before it happens, it would seem.

Posted: **Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:39 am**

Okay folks, I suppose to clarify, our problem is this:

This new legislation (still under debate until December 2nd!) is directed towards "violent" and "extreme" "pornography"

(it may surprise some to learn) A typical dictionary definition of "pornography" is :

Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.

So technically - with the stories we have, we do host pornography here (even if only on a technicality!). And let's be honest, castrating someone with all the blood and stuff, is fairly extreme (not to mention violent). And it is primarily written for sexual arousal.

So it's fair to say we have all the necessary points for our UK members to become targets

But will we? I'm not so sure anymore. Proving intention will be very difficult in a non-communist state, and the Liberal Democrats have voiced concerns already over the wordings and definitions which (let's be honest!) are fairly flimsy at best.

Those who know me, know that I do get worked up over the smallest things ... but I really don' know here!

...Am I worrying for no reason?

~Rog

The politically paranoid eunuch

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