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Something continues to nag/intrigue me.

For all the extemely good advice given regarding seeking out expert surgical and medical care, and legal issues, which I can never ever quibble with, it still strikes me that a cutter, word I despise, and a qualified surgeon willing to do voluntary castrations share many characteristics from what I can gather.

Assuming the inclination from both is agreeable and yes, they will castrate both would expect the candidate to:

Show up unseen and unannounced in some strange city with very little preliminary conversation on a human level.

Exect the candidate to have somehow explained their need to have it done while their own need to do it remains a thundering silence.

Expect the candidate to prepare themselve for the procedure, the shaving, etc, and even suppy their own aspirins.

The surgeon might even require a false statement signed where the candidate might have to declare that this is the first step in gender reassignment, when very often that is not the case at all.

The desire to get the now castrated male out of the office as quickly as possible, with no good follow up, for fear of being involved or found out, is intense.

The candidate never asks questions like "When did you start having the desire to castrate males?"

What I'm really suggesting here, of course, is that both type of castrators are cutters, and those who had the monetary and educational means to follow their inclinations became urologists, surgeons,etc, did so knowing full well they could castrate to their hearts content.

While a licensed doctor might have the skills one could trust, they pretend to not have any personal gratification in castrating, which I hold to be impossibly dishonest. I think the honest answer would be more like, "I started thinking about doing this when I was 14."

The cutter's delight is cutting off balls is always clear and honest.

The choice for many becomes, do I want someone honest doing this, or do I want someone dishonest doing this, and that might explain why some, with all the good medical advice already given them, choose a cutter. I'm not recommending that they do, but that has got to be a factor.

Thoughts?

I would think in the "professional " it's totally about the money,YET,,they also have to totally cover there ass from being sued.!!

Provided that both are equally skilled ,,one should by all means go with the most sencere..

Here's something I was thinking ,,say someone wanted the procedure ( or needed it ) because of cancer ?? Now ,,could one justify such a surgery as

a preventive measure against getting cancer in that area ?, I mean with all the worthless plastic surgerys ,to simple "make one feel better about themselves "

Why does'nt castration fall into the same catagory? Do people have to go thru therapy for breast implants?? or that cutting out of the intestines to deal with weight?? A man can get a vasectomy,but not a castration??

Most people who go to cutters do so out of desperation, lack of information, and most often lack of dollars. And cutters work cheap or free. But the presumption that the cutter is equally skilled with a trained surgeon is quite a far reach, and is certainly not one I would trust. Of course not all surgeons are highly skilled, or as Spector in his later years, his skill deteriorated with age. I also have no doubt that Spector got his jollies from doing castrations (I dunno, I might, cept I don't do 'em), but he was also definitely in it for the fast easy money that could easily be hidden from the IRS..... Motivation by money is always present in these situations - if I were trained in this, I would damned well expect to be paid commensurate with my skills and my need to cover my overhead (clinic, equipment, etc.) as well as covering my ass... Altruism may play a part in some aspects of health care, whatever form it takes, but the almighty buck plays a hell of a role, as well it must. We just have to make choices about how much....

I agree with the Kristoff, a cutter may have great experience, he may have done 50 or 60 castrations, Dr Kimmel on the other hand has done over 10,000. When I went to Kimmel several years ago he spent a good bit of time telling me of his qualifications and experience. He also talk to me about my reasons and then we started talking about our kids and grandkids. It was a friday afternoon and that evening started a religious holliday for the Dr, yet, he called me that evening, the next morning and evening, sunday morning and evening and I saw him for a followup on Monday. A cutter will not ever do that. The biggest reason is that you go to a doctor because if there is a problem which can happen to anybody, a doctor has the hospital to get you to with no questions asked, a cutter will................(call 911, serve a year in jail and be deported),(pack up and leave/hide),(let you bleed to death and try to say that it your fault). Take your choise.

River

River,

I respectfully disagree with you. I very seldom talk about the person who helped me but he insisted that I knew what I was getting into beforehand, and he insisted on providing aftercare and follow-up. I wasn't simply turned loose to fend for myself any more than people who visited Spector or Kimmel do. In fact my helper insisted on my staying a week so he could examine the wound and make sure it was healing, etc.

So your assesment of a cutter just cutting you and not caring about the after effects is completely wrong in my case.

Funny thing I'm seeing is that people have more complications with Spector and Kimmel than I ever had with how I got it done. Maybe I'm just lucky, but then again the person who helped me was retired from working in hospitals, just wasn't a full-fledged MD. from what I understand you're given a few antibiotics and sent on your way with the good doctors in Philly. NOt the case with my helper... I was given round the clock care for a full week after the proceedure.

That said, I'd still say the best bet is a doctor, but from what I could tell the person that helped me did just as good or better job than Kimmel or Spector. I didn't swell up like a balloon... actually my swelling was limited to a bit of brusing and my scrotum inflating to about the size it was when it had testicles in it. Not what I've seen of either yours or others than have come from the good doctors office.

And before anyone gets the wise idea of asking me for a referral, dont' bother... I won't do it.

--LT

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:13 am I agree with the Kristoff, a cutter may have great experience, he may have done 50 or 60 castrations, Dr Kimmel on the other hand has done over 10,000. When I went to Kimmel several years ago he spent a good bit of time telling me of his qualifications and experience. He also talk to me about my reasons and then we started talking about our kids and grandkids. It was a friday afternoon and that evening started a religious holliday for the Dr, yet, he called me that evening, the next morning and evening, sunday morning and evening and I saw him for a followup on Monday. A cutter will not ever do that. The biggest reason is that you go to a doctor because if there is a problem which can happen to anybody, a doctor has the hospital to get you to with no questions asked, a cutter will................(call 911, serve a year in jail and be deported),(pack up and leave/hide),(let you bleed to death and try to say that it your fault). Take your choise.

River

.....

Losethem (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:28 am I very seldom talk about the person who helped me but he insisted that I knew what I was getting into beforehand, and he insisted on providing aftercare and follow-up. I wasn't simply turned loose to fend for myself any more than people who visited Spector or Kimmel do. In fact my helper insisted on my staying a week so he could examine the wound and make sure it was healing, etc.....So your assesment of a cutter just cutting you and not caring about the after effects is completely wrong .....Funny thing I'm seeing is that people have more complications with Spector and Kimmel than I ever had with how I got it done. Maybe I'm just lucky, but then again the person who helped me was retired from working in hospitals, just wasn't a full-fledged MD. from what I understand you're given a few antibiotics and sent on your way with the good doctors in Philly. NOt the case with my helper... I was given round the clock care for a full week after the proceedure....That said, I'd still say the best bet is a doctor....

I have to totally agree. However, it's up to those submitting to castration to ascertain that their procedure will be safe, and this is perhaps too big an onus to put on most patients. Given the underground nature of the act, even the savviest of customers can never know for sure. That being said, a lot o' guys eventually go this route - and safely. I find it interesting that one of the points made by the Thai clinic that does penectomies for guys that've been castrated for awhile is that it's definitely advisable to go to their clinic because the results are assured, and a penectomy is a much more difficult procedure than removal of testicles - and sometimes the sac - and cannot be done well by someone not trained in cosmetic procedures as well surgical procedures. This statement acknowledges that most of their clients have been castrated in the 'informal' sector.

The guy that eventually did me was a vet's ass't that'd castrated a couple hundred dogs, cats and other animals. My procedure went remarkably well in comparison to a lot o' what I've heard about some of Dr Kimmel's patients. While I was ambivalent about staying over, he insisted I stay with him the first night, which I did. I knew one 'cutter' that was a farmer and had surgically castrated dozens of his own horses and pigs - and about a dozen humans. And like 'Lose Them,' don't ask.

My cutter certainly needed to learn how to numb the parts. His cutting skills were good but I felt too much. My knowledge of surgical technique and sterile fields paid off. I was able to insisit things were done properly and I think he learned from me. I was also able to do my after care which was important. My biggest concerns were his exaggerations about his skills and experience. I learned of the exaggeration after I was stiched up. Also once he had what he wanted there was no more concern for me. I had to clean up the room the next morning and carry out a lawn size bag of trash to the dumpster. He also insisited I buy him breakfast at McDonalds before he hit the road. I was not in any condition to argue so off to McD's we went.

Thanks for the interesting discussion regarding cutters. Perhaps that would be an easier way for me to go than a urologist.

I do agree that proper follow up treatment is a must. This is why I want the cutter (oops - doctor) to be local to me. Philadelphia is just too far away for my liking. I wish there were others like Dr. Kimmel. As for surgical experience, I'd have to say that a veterinarian would be my next choice after a urologist or surgeon. There is no way I'd go to an amateur cutter with no medical license or training.

I am tempted to just start calling doctors in my local area and ask right up front if they would do a bilateral orchiectomy. I'd offer to pay cash, naturally.

History is full of stories about DIY castrations. One that comes to mind is Origen around 150AD. If I had access to the proper local anesthetics, I'd give it a try. No rubber bands for me, as I prefer to have a scrotum afterwards.

I suggest that You invest - individually - or as a group - in the medical schooling of

a student of You choise so that he will be the designate "cutter" when he gets his

Medical Doctors diploma. He wont have to be an eunuch to do a good job on those that wants their stuff "removed" safely and properly. N3RF

Dr. Kimmel making more mistakes then some cutters? Give me a break and stop the insanity. River is right, Kimmel has done over 10,000 castrations, he's extremely knowledgeable and experienced. If you want to risk your life with some inexperienced cutter who gets off castrating men, keep chatting in the chat room, you're bound to find one. If you want to use someone who makes you take them to McDonalds before they hit the road, fine, you'll probably end up in the emergency room. Kangan, it's your life they're talking about, do you seriously want to try a cutter rather than an experienced doctor? Think it over carefully. I'd rather pay the money, and it's not that much compared with other operations, $2000. grand by a qualified physician. Do it right or don't do it at all. Hash

P.S. I thought Neanderthal's were extinct, but from what I've been reading they must have survived the ice age.

HEY!

we in the chatroom are very careful in what is said there. we try our best to keep that kind of communication in private at best. No one would recommend anything illegal without one of us stomping on them in the lobby. We are really a supportive lot and most of what goes on there is taylored to helping us cope, not getting us killed.

As for cutters, nobody in their right mind would seek untrained surgeons for any reason, other than finding something that society thinks is wrong (wrong or right). If it were not so illegal and unethical, you would never see one. Take abortion for example. Back room Abortions nearly stopped altogether after Roe V. Wade. If abortions were again illegal, they would again proliferate. something to do with supply and demand.

Myself, i am male. i probably will die male. i never felt male, but,due to past mistakes, (marriage, kids, a job and family) i play the hand i was delt and live through my chat room, my stories and the odd post here and there.

peace be.

Hash (imported) wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:13 am Dr. Kimmel making more mistakes then some cutters? Give me a break and stop the insanity. River is right, Kimmel has done over 10,000 castrations, he's extremely knowledgeable and experienced. If you want to risk your life with some inexperienced cutter who gets off castrating men, keep chatting in the chat room, you're bound to find one. If you want to use someone who makes you take them to McDonalds before they hit the road, fine, you'll probably end up in the emergency room. Kangan, it's your life they're talking about, do you seriously want to try a cutter rather than an experienced doctor? Think it over carefully. I'd rather pay the money, and it's not that much compared with other operations, $2000. grand by a qualified physician. Do it right or don't do it at all. Hash

P.S. I thought Neanderthal's were extinct, but from what I've been reading they must have survived the ice age.

I did go to McDonalds but did not need to go to the emergency room.

I think this is an important discussion and all aspects ought to be considered. At the EA, we emphatically discourage the use of cutters. This is not only for legal reasons, but most importantly, for safety reasons. There may well be consientious and capable "cutters" out there, but do you want to chance it with your life? Granted one can run into severe difficulty with a surgeon - incompetence (i.e., old age, etc. or otherwise), chance complication, whatever. God knows I did (Spector almost caused my death through incompetence - he fully retired very shortly thereafter.) But, as a general rule, one's odds of success, survival, and many fewer complications are much better with a qualified surgeon.

I do welcome a full discussion of this issue here, but do keep in mind that posts either soliciting a cutter or advertising as one, will not be permitted.

The Title of the Thread is "Cutters with a License". I honestly believe if the government did some training and licensing of cutters, we would have more people getting castrated by someone legally rather than someone illegallly. There is no reason why a medical professional with proper training and licensing by the government could not do as good or better than. Training would have to including knowing when to surrender and allow a surgeon to continue or a emergency room to administer aid.

If cutters were licensed to castrate, there would be a lot more castrations but also a lot more eunuchs who wish they never would have done it. In my opinion, making castration easier will also destroy lives. Because castration is difficult, it acutally prevents mindless "wannabe's" from rushing out and getting cut. Generally speaking, the "difficulty" saves men from jumping into something that they'll regret. How many times must it be stated that castration should not be done for the sexual thrill or for those fantasizing about it. In fantasy's you keep your testicles, in reality when their removed they stay removed and you will not ever be the same. Getting castrated was the right thing for me, but it took me years to finally go through with it, I had to be prepared.

Until the medical community is truly aware of some of our needs to become eunuchs I am afraid there will be cutters. Educating the medical community may not be easy but I think it would be more difficult to push for licensed cutters. Hash is right about making it too easy but I do think receiving chemical castration drugs should be easier for those who think castration is the answer. After a month or two they should have a pretty good idea. A doctor could always say use the meds for six months and test drive being a eunuch. Then if you still want it we will operate.

When I was ready a cutter was all I was aware of and I do not recommend one. My procedure went fairly well as did several other posters but I wonder how many out there would have much different stories.

JeffEunuch (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:58 pm I have to totally agree. However, it's up to those submitting to castration to ascertain that their procedure will be safe, and this is perhaps too big an onus to put on most patients. Given the underground nature of the act, even the savviest of customers can never know for sure. That being said, a lot o' guys eventually go this route - and safely. I find it interesting that one of the points made by the Thai clinic that does penectomies for guys that've been castrated for awhile is that it's definitely advisable to go to their clinic because the results are assured, and a penectomy is a much more difficult procedure than removal of testicles - and sometimes the sac - and cannot be done well by someone not trained in cosmetic procedures as well surgical procedures. This statement acknowledges that most of their clients have been castrated in the 'informal' sector.

The guy that eventually did me was a vet's ass't that'd castrated a couple hundred dogs, cats and other animals. My procedure went remarkably well in comparison to a lot o' what I've heard about some of Dr Kimmel's patients. While I was ambivalent about staying over, he insisted I stay with him the first night, which I did. I knew one 'cutter' that was a farmer and had surgically castrated dozens of his own horses and pigs - and about a dozen humans. And like 'Lose Them,' don't ask.

Castrating a horse or pig or cat or dog is not even the same as castrating a human, if you thing there the same then by all means go to your cutter and I wish you the best, because if there is a problem you will be on your own. When I took Rupert to the vet he was home the next day and never another thought as to his visit which is true with all critters. The plumbing for a human is much different than that of a pig, but if you think of yourself as a pig, go to a vet, or cutter.

Spector in the last few years he was in business was getting a very bad rep, and scared the hell out of me which is why I waited so long. When we found Kimmel it was wonderful, for here is a man with the experience and qualifications to do this kind of work. Like I said before, if there is a problem which there can be with any operation, your not left on the kitchen table to fend for yourself.

Your choise, I wish you the best.

River

Threads take on a life on their own as different aspects get discussed and provoke further offshoots and that is as it should be.

In the original post, however, and it's title, I was not suggesting that some sub-class of medical professionals, cutters, like mid-wives, get licensed to perform more and more safe castrations.

I was trying to point out the extreme unfair unbalance in the equation, where someone with the desire to be castrated is asked to justify their "bizarre fetish" and explain this desire endlessly, how could you want this, at what age did it start, let's make sure your are not mentally ill, ad nausem, whereas the desire to castrate is never questioned.

I'm not concerned with an actual individual, Dr. So and So, Somewhere Planet Earth, I'm saying that if Dr. So and So ended up highly licensed and skilled and is castrating, castrating, castrating, then that indidual, quite legitmately, and not nefariously, is exhibiting a manifestation of the other side of the equation, so either this a bizarre fetish or it is not.

If I were to be asked when my desire started, I expect Dr. So and So to answer my own question, "When did yours start?" or "Why do you want to be castrated?" could be countered with "Why do you castrate?"

I'm once again point blank saying, not about skills, but about urges, that Dr. So and So IS a cutter who BECAME licensed, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. I'm glad he pursed it to the point where he can now do it carefully and humanely, and safely and with follow up, but...when did this desire start in him, yesterday?

Always?

Justify it, explain it, take a psychological test for me, sign a form for me. And by the way, my fee for letting you do what you love doing is $2,500.

Well a EMT or Vet. has the ability to "cut" it's more about being familiar with WHAT it is your cutting..I to would have to say ,I have never discussed anything with people outside of the underground on such things,nor given a "referal" of name,,even with Burdizzo castrations.I would almost question that with the Kimmel/Spector thing and there names tossed about so easily,,it's a wonder they have not been set up in some way or taken to court.