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This appeared in www.Ninemsn.com.au as a News Item. Any volunteers to act as the testicle executioner? Might become a permanent career for the right person

RAPIST AGREES TO CASTRATION

Wednesday Sep 12 06:01 AEST

AP - A confessed rapist in Florida has agreed to be castrated in a plea deal that could reduce his prison sentence from a possible life sentence.

Bobby James Allen pleaded guilty to three counts of armed sexual battery and various other charges involving attacks that happened in 1998 and 1999. Allen filed a motion requesting castration in exchange for a reduced sentence.

Circuit Judge Michael Overstreet agreed to sentence Allen to 25 years' prison on Sept 20 if he has the procedure in the next eight days. If Allen does not go through with the operation, he faces up to life in prison.

"You understand that this procedure is the removal of your testicles?" Overstreet asked Allen.

Allen said he wanted to be castrated, The News Herald reported.

"I have spoken with all the victims," prosecutor Larry Basford told Overstreet. "They agree that this sentence punishes him and would deter him and others from similar acts."

Allen would be classified as a dangerous sexual offender and must serve every day of his 25-year sentence, prosecutors said.

I just checked out that link, saw many news items on that page but no link to the rapist's sentencing.

That said... I have for a long time now thought that this would be a great idea, to offer a convicted man a chance to reduce his sentence by accepting castration. But in this particular case, I think castration is not enough, this rapist could and probably will still get testosterone through HRT. After he is out he could easily get his T-levels back up to pre-castration levels.

For any violent offender, (e.g. robbers, wife beaters, common thugs and such) he should be offered the standard sentence, but offer a reductioin of five years if he agrees to castration and permanent monitoring of T-levels. But for sex offenders (rapists, molestors) I think they need to go farther, a complete nullification for a reduction of five to seven years.

Please keep us all posted and up to date on this case.

If a convicted rapist agrees to castration and is given an early release, his name should be placed in some kind of computer registry police file so that when he goes to the pharmacy to get a "testosterone" HRT prescription filled, it's automatically denied. He still could get testosterone on the street, but at least that's some what more difficult. If a convicted rapist is castrated, given early release, he should be forewarned that if he is convicted of another rape, he'll also lose his penis.

Rape is more about violence and control than sex. Castration may be a good idea but not for the reduction of the sentence. Believe me the vicitm suffers long after the sentence has been served. If the offender is still angry after the surgery and release from prison he will still find ways to dominate and degrade others.

tugon (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:30 am Rape is more about violence and control than sex. Castration may be a good idea but not for the reduction of the sentence. Believe me the vicitm suffers long after the sentence has been served. If the offender is still angry after the surgery and release from prison he will still find ways to dominate and degrade others.

Sorry Tugon, but the whole "rape is about power / domination, not about sex" is a femenist idea that has been repeated over & over as fact when it's not. Without T, sex offense recidivism plummets to less than 2%.

I spent several years working with sex offenders. Castration doesn't stop offenders. Tugon is correct, rape is about power and control. If the offender has been castrated and doesn't get erections he can still rape using fingers, dildos, sticks, whatever. What castration does do is satisfy the victim and people in the community who support it. Ramses, where do you get the 2% recidivism number from?

The question of the efficacy of ANY kind of treatment for sex offenders is currently being debated by the Sexnet listserve group. A lot of heat (and very little light) has been generated by the debate thus far. Some, such as Dr. Michael Seto (one of the major lights in the field), argue that there is currently zero scientific evidence that anything works. Others, such as Dr. Paul Federoff, argue that there is ample evidence that some treatment regimens are quite effective.

The use of castration, both chemical and surgical, has been a part of the discussion, but with no clear consensus even as to how to approach the available data. There does, though, seem to be some agreement that chemical castration is less likely to be effective in that some offenders who have been tracked have found ways to avoid using the drugs and have re-offended once they were off them.

My stand in the argument, based on several European studies, is that VOLUNTARY surgical castration, especially if it is difficult to obtain, seems to be effective. My favorite study is one by Wille & Beier looking at 104 sex offenders in Germany. Men who are imprisoned for sex offenses may apply to be castrated. A committee decides (based on criteria unspecified in the article) to allow castration or not, and only a minority are approved.

The 104 who were castrated were compared with a control group who had requested castration, but had been denied. The recidivism rate for those castrated was 3%. It was 46% for those not castrated.

Wille & Beier also refer to a number of other European studies tracking a total of 2,618 sex offenders who had been castrated. They found a total recidivism rate of 2.25%, though there were no control groups for any of those studies.

SELECT BIBLIOGRAPHY:

Fedoroff, P. (1995). Antiandrogens vs serotonergic medications in the treatment of sex offenders: a preliminary compliance study. The Canadian Journal of Human sexuality, 4, 111-122.

Gijs, L., & Gooren, L. (1996). Hormonal and psychopharmacological interventions in the treatment of paraphilias: An update. The Journal of Sex Research, 33, 273-290.

Hanson, R. K., et al. (2002). First report of the Collaborative Outcome Data Project on the effectiveness of treatment for sex offenders. Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment, 14, 169-194.

Seto, M. C. (2007). Treatment of pedophilia. In G. O. Gabbard (Ed.), Gabbard's treatments of psychiatric disorders (4th ed.). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Publishing, pp. 657-669.

Seto, M. C. (2008). Pedophilia and sexual offending against children: Theory, assessment, and intervention. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.

Wille, R., and Beier, K.M. (1989). Castration in Germany. Annals of Sex Research 2:103-133.

Thanks for the great sources, Jesus. I believe the study I had in mind was a Scandanavian study from the 90's. I will try and find exact study tonight. On a side note, it seems that when I read stories about castration being ineffective for reoffenders, it's always someone that was chmically castrated and quit taking the drugs.... well, duh!

The sad thing is that a man can not seek help and tell a therapist that he feels dangerous to children. By law the therapist would have to report him and he'd be treated like a criminal for just admitting the affliction. I feel sory for people that are cursed with a sick attraction to children. I think these people are born that way but when they cross the line it's time to cut their nuts off. If you can't handle the responsibility of testicles, you should simply be relieved of them and sent on your merry way!

I agree with Ramses. Rape being about power and domination is feminist propoganda. Rape always has been and always will be about sex.

Going from life to 25 years is not enough. 25 years in prison might as well be eternity. I'd like to see voluntary surgical castration offered to offenders in exchange for no sentence at all, preferably, but at least more than a few years knocked off. If we are going to insist on a punishment model for our criminal justice system, which in my view does nothing more than satisfy the vengeful lusts of the victim and society rather than do anything to stop crime, then surely castration is punishment enough. And of course the castration should be required to have therapy and supervision accompany it.

Castration is nothing to be taken lightly and will have severe psychological reprocussions for those who do not want it. Any offender requesting castration should be required to first receive a full education on the procedure and its effects.

Of course those offenders who will not or cannot undergo castration should be prevented from being able to harm anyone else, but it would be nice to see them get some real help and a second chance rather than punishment that will do nothing for them and even less for society.

As far as getting scripts for T later on is concerned, usually that is not going to be an issue because very little of the sentence is knocked off for castration, so he will still be locked up for a long time. And I would be surprised if someone who has been without T for 25 years suddenly decided they wanted T again - by then you forget everything you felt on T. I already have after only 2 years. But I would support a sort of verification system like the one you mentioned, although I don't necessarily find it fair that all people getting a script for T would have to be run through the system.

You could always microchip those banned from T as part of the agreement. We lock up too many people in this country. If we could neutralize someone as a threat, I think castrating them would be enough punishment. You could always require a penectomy to keep them from ever doing T. I can't imagine wanting T if you dont have a penis. What a torture!

There was a case in Germany some time ago that I read about where a sex offender had agreed to be castrated and was released on that basis after the op. He had then gone on to TRT and thereafter attacked and killed a young girl. At his trial, the mother of the girl stood up with a gun and shot him dead on the spot. I think they went through the motions of prosecuting the mother but in the end she was let off with no conviction - probably a temporary insanity defense which was regarded sympathetically by the authorities. This event and other similar events suggest that once and offender is convicted of a seriously violent sex crime against children and maybe women in general, they should be jailed with a "Never to be released" provision in their sentence. No second chances, period. Where you read second chance at a life I read a second chance to offend. A life sentence won't necessarily do it since most,sooner or later seem to find some reason to apply for parole which bleeding heart judges then seem only too willing to give them.

As far as I am concerned if I had been present in the courtroom I would have stood up and applauded

I think castration would be a help for those who request it because they want to change. If they choose castration as an early out from prison and not a genuine desire to change I do not think it will be as much a benefit. They can not unrape their victims so the time still needs to be served. We all know certain crimes have certain sentences and to commit that crime is to accept the punishment.

I was male when I was raped repeatedly and believe me in my situation it was very much about control and domination. Why else would one rape because they could find a sex partner in a more normal way. They could hire a prostitute and have sex. Instead they put a gun to your head, enjoy your fear and panic and as all your muscles tighten out of fear they tear you as they enter. They use their penis as a weapon to hurt. This folks is not sex. I hope no one else will experience that trauma. This is not femminist propoganda.

One thing you may not know is that rape changes you. Being a victim you find it hard to trust people. Intimacy becomes very difficult. There are many well documented issues that victims of rape must overcome. It is possible to learn to be happy but you are forever changed. Sex does not harm your heart, mind and soul but rape does.

I think that rape is not as much about sex/dominance/control, as it is about sexual release of the perpetrator. Some people either cannot, or don't get enough satisfaction from "mainstream" forms of sexual outlet. Instead, they are turned on by violence. Screams and terror of their victims only serves the purpose of further sexual stimuli.

Ever heard of Chikatilo, the notorious Ukranian lust murderer? Even though his libido was reportedly weaker than average, Chikatilo still had a need for an occasional sexual release. However, there was a problem.. He discovered (while raping one of his victims) that the ONLY way he could get a satisfactory orgasm, was by suffocating, stabbing and tearing his victims apart. They were typically discovered as mutilated cadavers covered with sperm. These were the sort of activities that turned Chikatilo on. He could not achieve orgasm during ordinary intercourse, and even rape wasn't enough anymore. "He ejaculated in the process of knifing the child; from then on Chikatilo was only able to achieve sexual arousal and orgasm through stabbing and slashing women and children to death. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo .

While on the surface it may seem that rape is about "revenge, dominance, etc.", it is in fact largely about the sexual gratification of the rapist because that's what turns these folks on in the first place. Furthermore, many of the other cited reasons for rape, ie., "need to control, humiliate, subjugate" also appears to be testosterone-dependent and intertwined with the perpetrator's (often) overwhelming sexual urges/fantasies. It comes as no surprise, then, that the overall recidivism rates are almost non-existent across ALL of the 31 (mostly European) studies which looked at volunteer surgical castration for sex offenders, including a small sub-group of violent offenders guilty of severe bodily injury and sometimes murder.

hazbalz (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:02 am where do you get the 2% recidivism number from?

Here's an excerpt from one of my earlier posts on this issue, that might be of some interest:

A total of about 31 studies on the effectivity of surgical castration in sex offenders have been carried out in Europe and the U.S. during the last 60 years.

The studies (as listed in VT Cheney's "Castration: The Advantages and the Disadvantages"): Norway (Bremer 1959), Switzerland (Cornu 1973, Kolle 1934, Wolf 1934, Lemaire 1956), Germany (Langeluddeke 1963, Bunnsmann 1940, Heim 1980, Jensch 1944, Meywerk 1943, Ohm 1960, Renner 1979, Rodenberg 1942, Schultka 1971, Wille & Beier 1989), Holland (Hartsuiker 1948, Wijffels 1954, Fischer 1960), Sweden (Kinmark 1949, Oster 1966, Lindberg 1968), U.S.A (California Assembly Repors 1952), Czechoslovakia (Zverina 1989), Denmark (Sand 1940, Sturup 1953 & 1968 & 1969 & 1972)

The results: Total number of participants: 5248 men, with an average of about 170 per study. Average recidivism rate: 2,44 % , with a maximum of 11% and a minimum of 0.0%. The largest study, by Langeluddeke in 1963, involved a total of 1036 castrated offenders with a follow-up of 20 years, with a recidivism rate of only 2.3% vs. 84.0% before castration. Furthermore, none of the recidivism rates were of a violent character (in contrast, chemical castration studies end up with a slightly higher average recidivism rate of about 10%, with a max. of about 15% to 18%, probably due to poor compliance with treatment regimen. The recidivism rates for counseling are much higher).

tugon (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:59 am I think castration would be a help for those who request it because they want to change. If they choose castration as an early out from prison and not a genuine desire to change I do not think it will be as much a benefit. They can not unrape their victims so the time still needs to be served. We all know certain crimes have certain sentences and to commit that crime is to accept the punishment.

I w

ould agree with that, since I do not view castration approach as punishment but more as a deterrent/rehabilition/treatment. There definitely also ought to be some punishment involved since, as you say, rape can not be undone and one would have to face the consequences of one's actions like all other criminals. However, in the cases of sexual offenses where no to minimal violence was involved, I tend to agree with Plix's suggestion that it should be possible to dramatically cut down sentence time or limit the punishment to financial reparations only, in exchange for volunteer testosterone-lowering measures (with mandatory saliva monitoring, when and if neccessary).

Francis (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:28 am There was a case in Germany some time ago that I read about where a sex offender had agreed to be castrated and was released on that basis after the op. He had then gone on to TRT and thereafter attacked and killed a young girl.

This case is one that is among the 3% recidivism rate noted in the Wille & Beier study. Quoting directly from their article:

This one case is in several ways, exceptional and made spectacular criminal case history in the FRG. This applicant of average intelligence (IQ = 93) was burdened by divorce and chaotic family life as a child. After completing an apprenticeship as a butcher and military service, he abused alcohol and had an unsteady work history. He was involved in minor delinquency, but also carried out a violent pedophilic assault on a girl. After a suspended sentence, he underwent psychotherapeutic treatment which he soon discontinued because he did not think it was working. Three years later, at the age of 30, a pedophilic offence followed and then he was committed to a psychiatric hospital. At that time he was castrated and he was soon released into the community and he returned to his fiancee. After 1-1/2 years, he achieved legal permission for hormone substitution therapy employing androgens with the aim of improving his severely diminished libido and his erection/cohabitation difficulties. This was accompanied by a revival of his pedophile inclinations. Following sexual contact with a 7 year old girl, he ended up killing her. During the period of detention, two follow-up interviews took place. A few weeks later in court, under the eyes of the interviewer, he was shot dead by the mother of the murdered girl.

Most men would consider castration a punishment. Of course most of us here would call it a bonus. Immunocastration can be administered once a year as a TRT deterrent. It makes TRT useless. The only problem is it's not approved for humans yet.

When I was arrested for a sex offense many decades ago (non-violent consensual sex with a minor between 13 & 16), I wanted an immediate castration. Unfortunately I could not get one. If castration or even nullification had been offered to me as an alternative sentence, I would have agreed. (Oh yeah - no prison - just probation - I was very lucky to escape prison. Thank God that I could afford a good [and expensive] lawyer.)

First time offenders in statutory or non-violent cases should be given probation and offered voluntary castration. Second time offenders should be given the choice of castration, or prison. Third time offenders should be given the choice of prison and castration, or nullification and no prison. All of the above should be given probation and suitable counseling if allowed to reenter the community.

Violent or extreme repeat offenders should be either locked up for life or executed.

The 35 year Florida man was castrated and has a jail time of 25 years.

If the State is willing to castrate rapists, and other sexual orientated crimes, why not then is it so hard to find a doctor to perform castration on a mans wishes, as in the case of vasectomy.

stevesd (imported) wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:51 am The 35 year Florida man was castrated and has a jail time of 25 years.

If the State is willing to castrate rapists, and other sexual orientated crimes, why not then is it so hard to find a doctor to perform castration on a mans wishes, as in the case of vasectomy.

Double standards, as usual. BTW, even being a dangerous sex offender is no guarantee that you will be able to obtain a safe orchiectomy. In fact, only a couple of states these days have a legislation that allows for a rapist to obtain castration on demand. Other states simply DENY such requests in most cases. The recent case of James Jenkins in Virginia is a good example; he felt compelled to do the job himself with a shaving razor to stop his bothersome urges as the state was not willing to help him out (he was basically told to sod off when he initially asked for a safe orchiectomy while in prison).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00960.html