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I recently realized that I was in a more weakened state and not feeling quite right, then I came to my senses and realized I had not used any testosterone for two or three days. Since I'm a "low doser," meaning that I only use a small amount to keep my "t" levels at around 120/150, when I miss for a couple days, my body weakens, depression starts, etc. So I rubbed some on, upped the amount actually and over night started feeling better and more like myself or the self I like.

Today I was listening to an ex-major leaguer named Nulty? Played some for the Twins & Yankees, but was using steroids the whole time, though he stated he stopped the roids when he went to the Yankees and began using HGH instead. Needless to say, he didn't last long and only played 4 years in the majors. I'm sure he has some residual effects from his years of steroid abuse, but I'm wondering if topical testosterone can be applied in quantities that could be classified as "steroid abuse?" I'm sure that sometimes I've used too much and it has the opposite effect on me. Do steroid abusers ever use too much with bad results? Hash

I don't have an answer to your qquestion but I have to say after two years at a level of about 2.7, my urologist put me back on the daily dose instead of the every other day dose. I was feeling listless and not much energy, sometime easy to get upset (although I kept my muth shut each time) and not sleeping well. He wants to see if going back to my original dosage will help in those respects. I was hoping to cut it out but when I got to feeling that way on the low dosage...and loss of energy....I decided that the daily dose would be right for me. that makes me taking a 5 gram tube daily and thus getting 50 mg .

Topical T would be very difficult to abuse for steroid purposes. This is because the amount you would need over time would be ridiculously high. Injectables are really the only option steroid users choose because it is much easier to get their levels where they want them on shots, and far cheaper. The cost of gel or patches that would be needed to achieve those levels over a long-term basis would be well into the thousands of dollars. With shots, a decent cycle can be purchased for about $500.

Do steroid users ever get bad results? Most certainly. In extreme and unlucky cases, liver damage and heart disease have been reported. But the most common bad side effects are testicular failure (very common - the balls automatically shut down when exogenous hormones are administered, and getting them started again is diffcult for the most experienced and hopeless for the ignorant) and infertility. Now, if you don't have balls, then obviously the ball side effects are not something you would have to worry about. But you still have the risks of liver damage, baldness, acne, problems due to E conversion, and other issues.

I admit, as a eunuch who takes testosterone via IM injection, it's extremely tempting to abuse T and see what "roids" can do. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), even with T I lack the motivation to spend the hours per day in a gym to really bulk up. That, and I couldn't afford a gym membership. Heheh. Still, I'm fairly confident that there are other eunuchs who do use testosterone for that purpose, and I'd be willing to bet there is at least one on this board who does so.

I agree with Plix that topical would definitely not be the way to go. I've tried pills, patches, the gel, and shots. Of the four options, the shots definitely have the most bang for the buck. Around here, a 10ml vial of 100mg/ml Depo Testosterone is less than $50 at the pharmacy. That's easily 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of the equivalent amount of any other form of testosterone. Not that I'd recommend anyone abuse testosterone for steroid purposes.

Steroid users really never have any life threatening side effects. Do NOT keep listen to the mass media. I am a steroid "abusers", by most people's standards, BTW. And I have many friends who are like me. There are MILLIONS of us out there. Everyone is healthy

As far as topical "mega dosing" that was questioned here, the only side effects would almost certainly be over aggression, as the type of testosterone in the gel is very potent, androgenically speaking. But is none toxic. Injectable tesosterone is also rather non-toxic, but far less andrgenic. It's main side effect at high dose would be ball shrinkage. BUT, this same effect also happens with this form of testosterone, even at low doses. In fact, it is used as a male contraceptive, at only 200mg/wk because it dose shrink nuts. So to say it has side effects if "abused" is not accurate, as it has the same side effect even if not "abused".

Have to agree with my Buddy Testman. years on test and prohormones with NO serious permenant side effects.

The "steroid scandal" was MANUFACTURED to cover the DEA's inability to control real narcotics coming over the border and to divert media attention AWAy from other failed policies.

Nice pic, Hash, and welcome back, Testman!

sealforvr (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:13 pm Have to agree with my Buddy Testman. years on test and prohormones with NO serious permenant side effects.

The "steroid scandal" was MANUFACTURED to cover the DEA's inability to control real narcotics coming over the border and to divert media attention AWAy from other failed policies.

Nice pic, Hash, and welcome back, Testman!

Agreed, I couldn't have said it any better.....

IEunuch,

Just was wondering how the shots affect you. I'm tempted to try them because a tube of compounded "t" costs me $120. bucks. When you first get injected, does your testosterone skyrocket? Do you feel as though you can't control your sexual desires? Does it slowly level off over time and will I get to the end of the month dragging myself into the Doc's office for another shot? Hash

Hash (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:43 pm IEunuch,

Just was wondering how the shots affect you. I'm tempted to try them because a tube of compounded "t" costs me $120. bucks. When you first get injected, does your testosterone skyrocket? Do you feel as though you can't control your sexual desires? Does it slowly level off over time and will I get to the end of the month dragging myself into the Doc's office for another shot? Hash

Gels are nice because they mimic a normal male "cycle." That is 24 hours from peak to dip. I can't speak for anyone else but injectables can be a really bad roller coaster effect with a spike at about day 3 and tailing off to lower and lower levels so that if its a long time between injections your feeling pretty low when you press the plunger. The trick it so use small doses but do them frequently. That keeps the peak from making you too crazy and the dip from making you want to pull your own head off.

It varies with men but ask to have it done weekly (or 8 or 9 days) and go for around 100mg or a tad more to achieve normal male levels. It also varies with the type of Testosterone you use. There are some really long lasting stuff but I've heard nothing but bad news about it as it doesn't really last long enough.

In Europe, I have heard of using Testosterone Undecanoate, an injectable that has a half life of three weeks. Shots could be done every two weeks and levels stay very steady. But its not approved in the USA. In the USA, they love using Cypionate, but they won't give it often enough. The half life for that stuff could almost be measured in days! In fact, 8-10 days is the number generally given for Cypionate. So, weekly injections are a must. I know of an endocrinologist who refuses to even prescribe any injectable unless they are used subcutaneously, EVERY DAY. A subcutaneous injection can be tolerated by the body if the injection sites are rotated, ie, not the same exact spot all the time, and also if the oil volume is low. But really, even just single intra-muscular shot a week will do. I have used this stuff myself and don't know how doctors can think it is OK to make men wait until the entire drug is out of the system before giving another shot. It would be like going through menopause all the time.

I don't know why they don't use the testosterone pellets in the USA. Its the same testosterone that is in Androgel, but not near the expense. They have pellets that can last two years. Just a doctor visit every, I guess, year and a half, would keep levels stable, and expenses down.

Hash (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:43 pm IEunuch,

Just was wondering how the shots affect you. I'm tempted to try them because a tube of compounded "t" costs me $120. bucks. When you first get injected, does your testosterone skyrocket? Do you feel as though you can't control your sexual desires? Does it slowly level off over time and will I get to the end of the month dragging myself into the Doc's office for another shot? Hash

Personally, I've found that shots tend to work best for me, even over the gel. However, that said, you have to be careful about your dosing schedule. I would absolutely advise against going with monthly shots. I don't even want to think about what it would be like to be on 400mg once a month.

For many years I went to the doctor every other week, for an injection of 200 mg. That was ok, although I do admit there was a fair-sized peak about 3 days after the injection, followed by a decrease to below-normal levels right before the next shot. Not anywhere near as much of a rollercoaster as getting a shot once a month, but still somewhat noticeable. In the last few months though, I've switched over to giving myself injections once a week. I have to say, after an adjustment period, it's a definite improvement over biweekly injections. I'll admit, sometimes I miss the 'peak' that biweekly injections gave, but the lows definitely are not as bad as they were.

I realize that not everyone will be ok with injecting themselves, but I don't really have a problem with it at all. Once you get the hang of it the process is fairly simple and (at least for me) virtually painless. I have a box each of syringes and 1.5" 22ga needles, so I'm well equipped, am using 100mg/ml concentrations of testosterone cypionate, and alternate thighs for injection.

It'd be nice to have a higher concentration of testosterone, however as far as I know the 200mg/ml strength isn't available around here, or at least no pharmacist has been able to locate it. One big advantage for me is that I no longer have to go in every other week to see a doctor, which can be a huge pain in the ass (no pun intended.)

With the weekly shots, I don't really notice any huge peaks or valleys, no days when my drive seems out of control, and no days when it seems nonexistent. I should probably qualify that however, by stating that I've never noticed any days where my drive seems out of control since starting HRT. On the contrary, even at times when I've doubled up my dosing, my sex drive has never reached the levels it was at prior to castration.

As for costs, I realize they'll be somewhat different with me being in Canada, however a 10ml vial (good for 10 weeks) runs around $41, including dispensing fees.

The minor problem I'm facing at the moment is that I'm only fully covered if I use the approved generic. Unfortunately, it seems that the generic that's approved isn't being made at the moment, and so I must use 'name brand'. This means that I have to pay the difference, which runs about $20 a vial. Still, $20 every two months or so isn't bad.

Thats strange,. Virtually all cypionate that has ever been made is 200mg/ml. PS. A little secrete your doc may not know, the higher the concentration, the less of the hormone gets lost. For example, if one uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is only 25mg/ml, his blood level will not be as high as someone who uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is concentrated at 200mg/ml. Its not a dramatic difference, but every mg counts.

Another trick docs don't know, is that part of the weight is actually not hormone but the ester chain added to that hormone. And the cypionate ester weighs more than the propionate ester. So if you were on 100mg/wk of propionate, your testosterone level would be higher than if you were on 100mg/wk of cypionate.

Testman (imported) wrote: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:48 am Thats strange,. Virtually all cypionate that has ever been made is 200mg/ml. PS. A little secrete your doc may not know, the higher the concentration, the less of the hormone gets lost. For example, if one uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is only 25mg/ml, his blood level will not be as high as someone who uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is concentrated at 200mg/ml. Its not a dramatic difference, but every mg counts.

Another trick docs don't know, is that part of the weight is actually not hormone but the ester chain added to that hormone. And the cypionate ester weighs more than the propionate ester. So if you were on 100mg/wk of propionate, your testosterone level would be higher than if you were on 100mg/wk of cypionate.

I'll definitely ask about any cost difference between 100mg/ml and 200mg/ml, although it's all up to the finances. If I recall, undecanoate is actually legal and available up here, I should probably inquire as to the costs of that too. Not sure about propionate, haven't encountered that one yet, at least not in injectable form.

Propionate is injectable only. Undecanoate is usually oral, so you may want to check that. But hey, if it IS in oral form, I can show you how to make it into an injectable, where MUCH more of the testosterone gets into your system! With oral Undecanoate, only a very small percentage gets into the blood. When its injected, almost 100% gets into the blood. You may actually be able to save money this way, as you would not be waisting so much that gets lost in the stomach.

Testman (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:57 am Propionate is injectable only. Undecanoate is usually oral, so you may want to check that. But hey, if it IS in oral form, I can show you how to make it into an injectable, where MUCH more of the testosterone gets into your system! With oral Undecanoate, only a very small percentage gets into the blood. When its injected, almost 100% gets into the blood. You may actually be able to save money this way, as you would not be waisting so much that gets lost in the stomach.

Sorry, brain fart. I've tried undecanoate (Andriol) before, in pill form. I was trying to think of a different form of injectable testosterone that I was on briefly a few years back, and must have gotten the two wires crossed. Its one of those things where I'd know the label if I saw it, however the chemical name is escaping me. Definitely wasn't cypionate though, although it was 200mg/ml strength.

BossTamsin (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:53 am Sorry, brain fart. I've tried undecanoate (Andriol) before, in pill form. I was trying to think of a different form of injectable testosterone that I was on briefly a few years back, and must have gotten the two wires crossed. Its one of those things where I'd know the label if I saw it, however the chemical name is escaping me. Definitely wasn't cypionate though, although it was 200mg/ml strength.

Sounds like it could have been Enanthate.

Andriol comes in capsules that have oil in them. This oil can be injected (once you extract it from the capsules) but first is re-sterilized with special filters. Very easy to do. I have used injectable Undecanoate before and I liked it. Not as much sex drive as cypionate gives but increases sense of well being very well. I just basically felt good all the time.

HRt can sometimes be a pain Androgel and Testim may not work and may leave residue however a compounded Testosterone Cream or Gel would not be leaving a residue on me and gets my levels back to the studly levels they were before I was on HRT or close as I had testosterone naturally at after a chronic infection and atrophy...

It is very costly to keep everything up though, it has been quite difficult.

I'm just confirming some information given above. I used steroids through my younger years, and have many friends who still do.

There is two aspects to steroid abuse -- physical and psychological.

For the physical, the danger is primarily one of liver damage. If you're on a testosterone regimen, your doctor should be testing liver function periodically. However, the liver problem is primarily with oral testosterone. Also, it depends on other liver risk factors -- like you might want to keep your drinking moderate. For me, the main physical risk seemed to be high blood pressure -- there is a reason that steroid abusers look like they're about to pop -- which led to an enlarged heart. But that sort of thing happens with large amounts of steroids (maybe five times amount of normal range male), not with HRT levels.

For the psychological aspect, as you noticed having testosterone in your system makes you feel good -- energetic, powerful, virile, dominant, indestructible. Also, some guys are have a body dysmorphic disorder where no matter how muscular they become it is never good enough.

In the end though, there is really not that many guys I know of who have died due to direct effect of extreme steroid use. Guys like Arnold Schwarznegger and Sylvester Stallone seem to still be kicking. I knew one guy, who I actually met once, called Andreas Munzer who died from massive internal organ failure, but he used $3000 worth of steroids per month. Check out his pics on http://forum.bodybuilding.gr/attachment ... 1250747047 and you'll see that you have a long way before you'd be that level of abuser.

So, I'd just monitor liver function and blood pressure. Other than that, I think testosterone can be really beneficial at the right levels.

Interesting discussion. I'm very lucky to have an endocrinologist who works with me and cares. He got me set up on a self injection routine by testing my levels carefully until we got it right.

To the "abuse" question, I don't think there is any meaningful risk to taking testosterone prescribed by a knowledgeable physician in a way that is monitored and keeps T levels within the normal range.

This is a difficult subject to get one's arms around because the data on steroid abuse is mostly anecdotal or one-off (guys who are using a Class-A drug illegally usually don't come forth to be part of clinical tests), but the risks of abuse are not trivial.

As a sports fan I think its easy to understand the "abuse" issue. If you have some players injecting themselves with testosterone and some that don't is it fair? I think its just bull shit. The era of all these long held records being broken by these cheaters is one of the worst things to happen to sports. I think everyone involved should be removed from the records books totally.

The photo of this guy who was spending $300 a month on this? Holy crap. How could anyone allow this obvious cheater compete without being at the very least tested? Don't get me wrong I'm sorry he died but sheesh.....

Testman (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:50 am Steroid users really never have any life threatening side effects. Do NOT keep listen to the mass media. I am a steroid "abusers", by most people's standards, BTW. And I have many friends who are like me. There are MILLIONS of us out there. Everyone is healthy

I do believe there are many documented results of Steroid misuse.

Steroid use and death

Alzado is probably most remembered today for being one of the first major U.S. sports figures to admit using steroids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid). In the last years of his life, as he battled against the brain tumor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_tumor) that eventually caused his death at the age of 43, Alzado asserted that his steroid abuse directly led to his fatal illness, but each of his physicians stated it could not be true, and that while steroids do have harsh side effects, they were not the cause of his brain cancer. According to some reports, Alzado was using natural growth hormone, harvested from human corpses, as opposed to synthetic growth hormones. However, shortly before his death, Alzado recounted his steroid abuse in an article in Sports Illustrated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Illustrated). He said:

" I started taking anabolic steroids in 1969 and never stopped. It was addicting, mentally addicting. Now I'm sick, and I'm scared. Ninety percent of the athletes I know are on the stuff. We're not born to be 300 lbs or jump 30 ft. But all the time I was taking steroids, I knew they were making me play better. I became very violent on the field and off it. I did things only crazy people do. Once a guy sideswiped my car and I beat the hell out of him. Now look at me. My hair's gone, I wobble when I walk and have to hold on to someone for support, and I have trouble remembering things. My last wish? That no one else ever dies this way."[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Alzado#cite_note-2)

If you look at the East German female athletes many are sick or dead from the use of steroids.

There is a lot of evidence world wide about what the use of steroids can do to you.

Having said that, if you have a beer a day you should never come to harm from it, if you have a 6 pack still no problem but if you drink a 30 pack every day, you have a problem. If you use steroids and do so with the help of a doctor and your not overdoing it you may be OK but I would never say that

Testman (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:50 am Steroid users really never have any life threatening side effects.

there is to much evidence saying otherwise.

Be Careful,

River

...

mrt (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:20 am The photo of this guy who was spending $300 a month on this? Holy crap. How could anyone allow this obvious cheater compete without being at the very least tested? Don't get me wrong I'm sorry he died but sheesh.....

what's always amazed me is that MLB allowed hyper-developed players like Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire play in that state for years when the "Before" and "After" photos of both suggested that there was very little likelihood that either got from "Photo A to Photo B" so quickly by simply working out in the gym.

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:44 am I do believe there are many documented results of Steroid misuse.

...

There is a lot of evidence world wide about what the use of steroids can do to you.

Having said that, if you have a beer a day you should never come to harm from it, if you have a 6 pack still no problem but if you drink a 30 pack every day, you have a problem. If you use steroids and do so with the help of a doctor and your not overdoing it you may be OK but I would never say that

Testman (imported) wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:50 am Steroid users really

Riverwind (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:44 am never have any life threatening side effects.

there is

to much evidence saying otherwise.

Be Careful,

River

That's excellent advice. Just because there have been few systematic studies of the impact of excessive steroid use on athletes and others, the evidence that is available is overwhelming that its hazards are very significant. Testosterone is now a Class A drug in most states because of those hazards and because so many have chosen to abuse it. Until the last few years, in some states it was difficult for those of us who use it legitimately even to get it; thankfully, that situation has been rectified.

Several points in this thread to respond to.......

First off, like has been said before using anything but an injectable testosterone would simply be cost prohibitive. Androgel is NOT cheap , even with insurance.

Like others I have tried all the available methods of HRT. For me the pills were useless, as I seemed to metabolize it rather than have any effect from it. Shots left me with such swings of mood and desire, that it was like starting menopause every other week. (paraphrasing Testman). That was unacceptible. Gels by far are my choice, they are a steady daily delivery, and match well with my other body cycles.

Now as to the starting point of this thread. I have known a eunuch body builder for more than 25 years. He was so "juiced" on steroids as a teenager, that he was forced to have his atrophied testicles removed at 17. He has since been on some form of HRT. He still used steriods as well, until a few years ago. He says that now he no longer needs the steriods, that maintaining his physique now is easy with a slightly high dose of HRT. He even claims that some lifters purposely overuse steriods to shut down their nuts so they can get on legal HRT.

Steriod or Testosterone abuse is really not a huge issue. Yes if you are nuts about it, you could see liver and other issues come up, but that is by far a rare thing.

The saddest part of all this is the loss of trust in Pro Sports , where men used to set records on ability and stamina, not how many shots they had this month....................