Bone loss in eunuchs

[BossTamsin (imported)]

Well, after much waiting and calling to find out exactly what the heck was holding them up, I finally got the results back for my bone scan. As closely as I can manage, I will now present them for you.

Age: 29

Sex: Male

Spine (L2 - L4)

This patient's BMD of the spine is very osteopenic and, in fact, is within one-quarter standard deviation of being osteoporotic. His fracture risk is moderate. Secondary causes of bone loss should be ruled out and treatment should be considered. A follow-up BMD is recommended in one year to monitor his response to therapy.

0.949 g/cm^2 Bone Mineral Density

Loss of -23% Compared to Young Adult

Loss of -2.4 SD Compared to Young Adult

-2.4 T Score

29 Chronological Age

Left Femur (Neck)

This patient's BMD of the femoral neck is mildly osteopenic, and his present fracture risk is very low. A follow-up BMD is recommended in three to five years to monitor the progress of his bone mineral density.

0.917 g/cm^2 Bone Mineral Density

Loss of -14% Compared to Young Adult

Loss of -1.2 SD Compared to Young Adult

-1.2 T Score

68 Average age for this BMD

29 Chronological Age

World Health Organization Criteria

Normal: A value for BMD or BMC within 1 SD (Standard Deviation) of the young adult reference mean.

Osteopenia: A value for BMD or BMC more than 1 SD below the young adult mean, but less than 2.5 SD below this value.

Osteoporosis: A value for BMD or BMC 2.5 SD or more below the young adult mean.

Severe Osteoporosis: A value for BMD or BMC more than 2.5 SD below the young adult mean in the presence of one or more fragility fractures.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, as near as I can determine, I've lost 23% of the calcium in my spine, and am a gnat's wing from full osteoporosis. My legs though, are somewhat better, only having lost 14% of the calcium, leaving me at the low end of Osteopenia.

Now, I've been a eunuch for 3.5 years. And of that time, I have been on testosterone injections (at fairly high levels), for at least 2.5 years. Was off for approx 6 months before I started them to begin with, and have been off the last 6 as well.

Eunuchs CAN have major bone problems. The two options I have for causes are: 1) my bones have lost this much in (essentially) one year without testosterone, and 2) the testosterone wasn't exactly all that effective. Either way, this is defnitely something all eunuchs should watch out for.

IEunuch.

(Been a strange day overall.... must be manic....)

[Paolo]

Even though I've never had a bone density scan, and don't plan to, one thing that I did notice since my own testosterone levels started to decline a few years ago due to gradual shutdown from repeated bouts of infection was that one day when I got angry (which I do easily - I have a volatile temper that's only getting worse) I punched the bedside of my Dodge truck. Well, it dented it in, not as far as I'd hoped, but I broke my hand and cracked a knuckle bone really good! I then promptly wet my pants and screamed.

Now keep in mind, I've punched my hand through the windshields of a Ford Mustang, a Chevy truck side glass, a Dodge sliding rear window, and punched the hood of someone's Firebird in so bad that it had to be replaced. I've also knocked numerous ASI windows out of MY house with my hands, not to mention several faces, noses, and teeth of those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end.

Needless to say, I was stunned when I broke my hand on the bedside of the Dodge. (That was the blue one I drove up to MN last year, God rest it in peace!)

So I guess this says a few things - Dodge is built better and those whose hormones fall off get weaker bones.

That or I'm just getting older.

Anyways ... take care of yourself, IE. Get a cow if you have to, or start munching oyster shells.

[Andrew (imported)]

Eunuchs CAN have major bone problems. The two options I have for causes are: 1) my bones have lost this much in (essentially) one year without testosterone, and 2) the testosterone wasn't exactly all that effective. Either way, this is defnitely something all eunuchs should watch out for.

IEunuch.

(Been a strange day overall.... must be manic....)

Thank you for posting this. My own Physician, Donna Garnier, P.A. has put me on 1,500 MG of calcium daily, encouraged bone-stressing exercises like walking, and has assured me that I will have bone desity scans every two years, and that if worst comes to worst I can be put on FOSOMAX or other bone-building drugs. Is FOSOMAX or equivilents available in Canada?

[BossTamsin (imported)]

Yes, FOSOMAX and equivalents are up here. And once my doc finished double-checking the name on the report, re-reading the test results, and generally picking his jaw up off the floor, his first act was to write me a scrip for "Didrocal". And guess what? It's even covered! So, starting Monday, I start the new calcium regimen.

IEunuch.

[Andrew (imported)]

Yes, FOSOMAX and equivalents are up here. And once my doc finished double-checking the name on the report, re-reading the test results, and generally picking his jaw up off the floor, his first act was to write me a scrip for "Didrocal". And guess what? It's even covered! So, starting Monday, I start the new calcium regimen.

IEunuch.

I am, of course, pleased that the canadian health system is covering this aspect of your problem. Is there any way the doctor could use the fact of your bone loss as a justification to put you back on testosterone?

[Charlieje (imported)]

Thanks for your posting and warning, IE. I am still stubborn enough to suggest that your bone density loss might not be the result of testosterone loss. You are a sample of 1, and so am I, and I have experienced no calcium loss whatsoever.

The thing that makes me most suspicious about your case is the fact that you suffered so much loss in only 1 year. To me that says either, as you suggest, that HRT doesn't do the entire job, or possibly there is something else going on in your system.

According to my former doctor, who retired 2 years ago. I am not eligible for calcium supplements because I have a parathyroid condition that tends to elevate the calcium levels in my blood to dangerous levels. We shall soon see because I am going to a new doctor next week.

In any case, IE, take care of yourself and do whatever you have to do to keep your calcium levels up. You have a long life ahead of you and you don't need broken bones along the way.

[SplitDick (imported)]

I am glad to see some real life information on the bone loss issue. I previously posted on the seriousness of this, but got the impression that most eunuch-wannabes considered it a mild risk. It is actually very serious!

I am glad the bone retention drug is covered for you IEunuch. I wonder how long before Campbell decides that oesteoporosis doesn't need to be covered ...

[Riverwind (imported)]

IEunuch, glad you can get some relief now if you're Doctor would only prescribe HRT.

Just got back from my Doctor today, he was pleased with my Testosterone count at 35 and again warned me of mussel loss, told me to workout both upper and lower body, when I asked him about osteoporosis, he said take calcium and we will check it in a couple of years. So I guess I am with Charlie on this, I just don't think enough testing has been done to make a blanket statement. Its not like there's a large test group. I think the jury is still out on this one.



River

[Andrew (imported)]

Even though I've never had a bone density scan, and don't plan to...

Just out of curiosity, and of course you don't have to answer this question if you do not want to, but why are you reluctant to get a bone density scan?

[Andrew (imported)]

I am glad to see some real life information on the bone loss issue. I previously posted on the seriousness of this, but got the impression that most eunuch-wannabes considered it a mild risk. It is actually very serious!

I a

nd several others have also posted on the topic of osteoporosis during the last couple of years, and I think you do many in the EA an injustice. Of course, from my perspective, I see three catagories of eunuchs.

The first are those who are eunuchs, but not by choice. And if I remember correctly, IEunuch is one of these. They have no choice about the dangers of osteoporosis. And IEunuch has the additional disadvantage of being cared for by the Canadian Health System, British Columbia brance (if I remember correctly).

The second are the elective eunuchs, such as myself, who got castrated for various reasons BUT are well aware of the potential disadvantages, which includes osteoporosis. We are aware of the risk, but do not live in fear and terror of this risk. We exercise caution as well as our bones, take our calcium, and work with our physicians.

The third group, now, is another story. Those who get castrated for the sake of being castrated without serious consideration of the long term consequences. Those who wanted to be castrated by a woman, or as part of a scene, or for various other reasons. However, these eunuchs are unlikely to hang around the EA for long. After all, once their castration fetish is taken care of, few probably see a reason to remain activein the EA.

As usual, these are just my opinions, and I am quite sure that Pearly (my cat) would be among the very first to disagree with them.

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

I'm also only a sample of 1. In any event, it needs to be stressed that all of us are different. The risk of osteoporosis is just that, a 'risk.' It varies by individual, with or without testes. Those w.o. testes undoubtedly experience a higher risk. My own score is +1.1 s.d. with the single scan I had last autumn. I'm 58 y.o. and was nutted 2+ yrs ago. I also do HRT.

[Paolo]

Andrew,

As a typical working American, I have no medical insurance and with allergy meds running me $89 a month, I can't afford one. Plain and simple. Well, that and I really DON'T care.

[BossTamsin (imported)]

I a

nd several others have also posted on the topic of osteoporosis during the last couple of years, and I think you do many in the EA an injustice. Of course, from my perspective, I see three catagories of eunuchs.

The first are those who are eunuchs, but not by choice. And if I remember correctly, IEunuch is one of these. They have no choice about the dangers of osteoporosis. And IEunuch has the additional disadvantage of being cared for by the Canadian Health System, British Columbia brance (if I remember correctly).

Actually, I am a eunuch by choice. But I am cared for by the BC version of the Canadian Health Care system. For most, I guess it works fairly well. It's only when unusual people like me come along that the system isn't as effective as it could be.

Posted by Charlieje

Thanks for your posting and warning, IE. I am still stubborn enough to suggest that your bone density loss might not be the result of testosterone loss. You are a sample of 1, and so am I, and I have experienced no calcium loss whatsoever.

The thing that makes me most suspicious about your case is the fact that you suffered so much loss in only 1 year. To me that says either, as you suggest, that HRT doesn't do the entire job, or possibly there is something else going on in your system.

[/]QUOTE]

It is entirely possible that my bone loss is indeed a result of some other major factor. I'm not trying to suggest otherwise. There is a chance, though, that the testosterone loss contributed in some way. Either way, though, it is something for people to take into consideration, and keep an eye on. Better safe than sorry.

As for the testosterone, there's mixed news on that front. I managed to get a vial, and am back on it. But right now there's apparently (so I was told by the pharmacist) a manufacturers shortage, so hopefully it'll be over before I need another vial.

I have applied once again for an exemption to gain coverage for testosterone and for another med (for hiatus hernia), and am fairly sure that I'm gonna get approval for the T, at least.

IEunuch.

[Andrew (imported)]

As for the testosterone, there's mixed news on that front. I managed to get a vial, and am back on it. But right now there's apparently (so I was told by the pharmacist) a manufacturers shortage, so hopefully it'll be over before I need another vial.

I have applied once again for an exemption to gain coverage for testosterone and for another med (for hiatus hernia), and am fairly sure that I'm gonna get approval for the T, at least.

IEunuch.

I am happy to hear about the T, and I ran a CEPT request for you throgh alt.callahans.

[Riverwind (imported)]

IEunuch, That would be great to get you back on T, we are all pulling for you on this one.

River

[Andrew (imported)]

Eunuchs CAN have major bone problems. The two options I have for causes are: 1) my bones have lost this much in (essentially) one year without testosterone, and 2) the testosterone wasn't exactly all that effective. Either way, this is defnitely something all eunuchs should watch out for.

IEunuch.

(Been a strange day overall.... must be manic....)

Over in alt.support.menopause, one of the ladies suggested that more information might be found on sci.med.diseases.osteoporosis

So this morning I subscribed to it. Perhaps some others concerned about this problem might consider this? In any case, if anything good comes along from this newsgroup, I'll pass it on.

[Andrew (imported)]

All this has encouraged me to join the internet newsgroup sci.med.diseases.osteoporosis and I'll pass along any worthwhile information that crops up.

[SplitDick (imported)]

Andrew,

I stand by my message about eunuch-wannabes poorly assessing risks (such as oesteoporosis). Actually, all humans are poor at risk-assessment and make decisions based on short-term gain or based on the fact they don't believe it can happen to them (like JeffEunuch saying "it's just a risk").

For example, if you took any smoker and let them live a day as a person dying of lung or throat cancer, I can guarantee you that they would quit right away. But somehow the future seems remote, a person feels lucky, and so they take another puff. Is that really conscious risk assessment?

The same goes for many eunuch-wannabes. They desperately want to escape their libido, or to resolve gender identity issues, or they have a S&M fantasy -- so they want to be castrated as soon as possible. But if they fast-forwarded ten years and realized that they would lose their lean body, physical prowess, have frequent hot flashes, and have to be careful about breaking their hip -- they might reconsider.

You and I have considered these issues for a long time. But my message was mainly intended toward those younger people I've seen as eager to be castrated: consider it carefully!

Sure there are ways to counter some of the negative effects of castration -- but does a person really want to be taking pills and injections for the next fifty years?

It is too bad that castration cannot just take us to a childhood pre-sexual state. Unfortunately, it is more likely to take us to senior post-sexual state.

[happousai (imported)]

>

It is too bad that castration cannot just take us to a

> childhood pre-sexual state. Unfortunately, it is more

> likely to take us to senior post-sexual state.

So what happens to boys who were born without functioning testicles and did not receive hormone replacement, when they are around 50 years old?

[Riverwind (imported)]

Splitdick,

I hope I am still taking pills in 50 years and remember why. I would be 105 years old.

Smoking, I quite last fall after 38 years, the best thing I ever did for myself.

I think the hardest thing for me is doing regular workouts. It takes lots of discipline and I do re-nig. I need a wife to nag me on this on.

Riverwind

[Andrew (imported)]

Andrew,

I stand by my message about eunuch-wannabes poorly assessing risks (such as oesteoporosis). Actually, all humans are poor at risk-assessment and make decisions based on short-term gain or based on the fact they don't believe it can happen to them (like JeffEunuch saying "it's just a risk").

So here it is, 15 May, and I have spent a few hours on the internet after use of search words "male osteoporosis". Some observations include...

1) A lot of men are being diagnosed with osteoporosis, and damn few of them would be eunuchs.

2) In about one-third of the cases, the men did not have any of the classical risk factors for osteoprosis.

And there does not seem to be any reliable studies as to how much your risk increases when you are hypogonadal. Most men and women build up bone mass up to age 40, after which it startes to decline. So I suppose somebody castrated before age 40 would be at ag reater risk then somebody castrated after age 40. But by how much?

I used the GOOGLE search engine. Anybody else in EA want to do some research and see what they come up with?

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

I'm also dependent on medicare in BC. Being gainfully employed, etc., there's no way I'd qualify for drug assistance. I have a private plan, but never make a claim. I once needed an anti-bacterial drug a few years ago, but have otherwise never had a prescription for anything but testosterone. It's probably stupid, but the cost of the testosterone - about $150/yr - just doesn't make it worth while. Of course, BC Medical pays the costs of the clinic whose nurse provides me with injections. I only pay for the substance. My doc is trying to get me to use the Androcreme that was just approved by Canada Health. Because it's more expensive, if I do decide to use it, I'll make a claim from my private health plan.

As I posted earlier, all of us have different results. My bone scan result in 2001 was 1.1x an average 21 y.o. woman and basically the highest score one could ever expect. I'm a physically healthy and active eunuch. I bike 30 km return to work daily. I ran 62nd of 3000 entries in the Vancouver Marathon 2 weekends ago (1/2 Marathon). My little group of 5 runners that practise together all did in the top 100. I could have done better and had so much energy near the end that I'm sure I passed no less than 100 people in the least mile. I was lucky not to have knocked anyone over. I can't describe how exilerating it was. I guess I'm lucky.

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

I forgot to add that I have a friend that's intact and about 40 y.o. He's got osteoporosis and has had no end of broken bones in the past 5 years. His docs say the condition is a congenital defect. It can happen to anyone. We use to do bike tours together, but his doc has told him to quit, and he has. He broke his collar bone twice in fairly minor mishaps. I also feel lucky to have been biking for almost 50 years and never had a crash. I'm knocking hard on my wood chair at this moment.

[Andrew (imported)]

It is too bad that castration cannot just take us to a childhood pre-sexual state. Unfortunately, it is more likely to take us to senior post-sexual state.

OK, I am not quite sure what you mean about the difference between a "childhood pre-sexual state" and a "senior post-sexual state". Care to explain?

As far as I can tell, the first state has no knowledge of what an orgasm is really like. The second does. But does this mean anything to me? For me, the Eunuch Calm has simply taken me to a state where I am rarely bothered by thoughts of sex. I'd guess that over 95% of the times when I think of sex, it is while reading some of the postings in the Eunuch Archives. Away from the EA, I think about other things.

[Andrew (imported)]

Came across this informative article on a possible future tretment for osteoporosis that should be of interest to all of us

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sc...000/1989461.stm