Youngest age for castration

[Losethem (imported)]

I think appropriate age depends on the functionality of the testicles and the ultimate outcome for the guy involved. If the testes are not functioning at all, then it doesn't matter what age, so long as the man is fully informed. If the desire is like mine (Wishing to remain otherwise male, but has functioning testes), I'd say 25 is a good age minimum as the testes produce many hormones other than testosterone and those are need for the full formation of the human male body. By age 25 the growth and development has finished, or at least mostly happened. At that point, any need for the testicles beyond reproduction has finished.

[de_fens_us (imported)]

25 is a good minimum age to make this life long choice.

[devi (imported)]

Thirteen would be a much better age to make this life long choice for those with extenuating circumstances such as xy-pais, xxy, and other circumstances, etc.

Fifteen for those xx persons who want to become male.

Seventeen for those xy persons who simply want to be female.

[JustAGuy (imported)]

Medical reasons for castrating a guy at a young age, well there's a few I suppose, torsion, cancer of the testes, or some type of major damage to them.

But, would you consider a guy having gender identity disorder as a medically viable reason for castration?

[_g (imported)]

It should be a personal choice, not dictated by law. There are too many needless laws know taking away our freedoms.

_g

[Mac (imported)]

Thirteen would be a much better age to make this life long choice for those with extenuating circumstances such as xy-pais, xxy, and other circumstances, etc.

Fifteen for those xx persons who want to become male.

Seventeen for those xy persons who simply want to be female.

Why the difference in the age requirements?

[JesusA]

Why the difference in the age requirements?

While I'm looking forward to hearing from Dev how he arrived at the various ages he suggests, there are definitely different ages appropriate for the various reasons. I'll be laying out some of my thinking in subsequent posts on this thread.

Since I'm trying to consider each word very carefully so that I can stand behind it in the future, it takes a long while to do each segment. The next one up will summarize some of what the members here have offered as ideas about BIID and then move into Gender Dysphoria in all its variety - MtF, FtM, and MtE (as well as others less well defined).

Richard and I have a very brief article on BIID that should see print in the Journal of Sexual Medicine later this month. I'll let everyone know when and will, again, send it to anyone who requests a copy. An article on the prevalence of MtE should be published in March or April in the Archives of Sexual Behavior.

[A-1 (imported)]

Medical reasons for castrating a guy at a young age, well there's a few I suppose, torsion, cancer of the testes, or some type of major damage to them.

But, would you consider a guy having gender identity disorder as a medically viable reason for castration?

Psychological problems are just as serious as physical problems. In fact, probably more serious because they are minimized until they get way out of hand.

Watching "CRIMINAL MINDS" is pretty educational. People get ill psychologically and do the most heinous things. Listening to the facts spouted off when serial killers are being investigated is an eye opener.

Picture it this way. Remember the Japanese "Lotus foot"? Foot binding. Now, picture psychological stunting and what it does to a young mind and you will begin to see what I mean.

Reading the New Neighbor Boy series I see flashes of the "Stockholm Syndrome" in the main character when he is being physically and mentally abused. The character called "Canyon" is on the road to being as bad as his guardian. (Or abductor, whatever the case.) Who knows if the story of his emasculation is legitimate. What is the symbolism of the "cock cage" for a child or a "butt plug" for that matter? There are some very deep issues in the stories. (No pun intended.)

You see the old saying, "as the twig is bent, so grows the tree" is a bit of folk saying by somebody who had an understanding of human nature.

It is rare when nature deals us one who despite nurture is truly gender dysphoric unrelated to an event that may be classified as nurture. (i.e.ABUSE) And I am still unsure that the connection between gender dysphoria and Gayness is well understood, or of hetersexuality and gender dysphoria, for that matter. Somehow, something has made these individuals un-accepting of part of their body to the point where not only do they want pain in it, but they want to punish it and destroy it.

I believe that this phenomena has connections to sado-masochism in that the masochist has to have an urge to feel pain in an area of their body, and not every masochist wants to experience pain in the same area or in the same way. Likewise Sadists are the flip-side of the same coin. They seek to be gratified by inflicting the pain instead of receiving it. It is the same difference between a suicide or homicide being brought on by internal conflicts. As we saw in Columbine, the subjects were indeed homicidal but I believe their mental states were suicidal before they were homicidal. When one loses respect for their own life, it is hard to maintain respect for that of another.

It is a very interesting area and severe problems in this area when connected with insufficient coping mechanisms can easily lead to criminality.

The Id must be satisfied and it overpowers the Superego and hijacks the Ego and then WATCH OUT! That is when the danger starts and it can be turned inward toward the self or outward towards others, or BOTH.

[Paolo]

A-1,

Please repost your comments on this TNNB story in the feedback thread for the story so we can discuss that there, and not drift off here.

Thanks.

[devi (imported)]

The reason for the ages that I set is due to the fact that these are the very ages for which most kids are setting their career goals. When one has gender dysphoria to deal with they almost always inevitably are unable to deal with any future goals and therefore become doomed to drift about life aimlessly and lonely with no real goals in mind. Unless they have an inheritance they are doomed to be poor and pretty much will always be unsuccessful only doing menial labor throughout their lives. This is because by their twenties they will by then be considered to be "stupid" according to their work history. So therefore no matter what their ability or intelligence is they will be relagated to the very bottom of the work list as a menial laborer (and a weak one at that).

So because they have some life long choices to be made they need to get their number one hang-up dealt with immediately and not be made to have to walk about lost.

[graylayer02 (imported)]

Wow, a lot of armchair theorizing here. Not like people are ever BORN gay or gender dysphoric or anything...must have been all that TV I watched as a kid or something, maybe it was the time I got spanked for bothering my sister. Yeah, that's it.

Look, I'm sure that there were some here who were abused as a kid or saw their 6th grade teacher naked (and you have my sympathy), but when a five-year old tucks his penis inside its skin and wants it to go away, or a thirteen-year-old tries to pull it off and only succeeds in damaging it, it isn't because of peer pressure or abuse. Hell, nurture couldn't even turn a boy into a girl who didn't want to be (the Reimer story).

The issue, I think, becomes what to do when someone is clearly in the wrong body of some sort. In my case I managed to do well in school and become a productive member of society because I knew that these things had nothing to do with wanting to be a eunuch. My coworkers don't have x-ray vision and can't see what's in my pants. But I partially agree with Dev in a simpler way; younger people who meet a VERY high standard of awareness should be able to do this because then they can spend their twenties as a person that they want to be.

[erikboy (imported)]

Okay, what do you all think the youngest a guy should be before he can be legally castrated for reasons other than medical reason? Like if he wants to be castrated at a young age do you think the boy should be allowed to have it done?

it is little off topic but

today I had interesting and futuristic thought. The earth is already over populated and we can not feed that mass of people without technological advances humankind has invented like fertilizers, pesticides, genetic modification, machinery, various technology etc. At the same time population is still growing and available resourses are more and more stretched. If something catastrophic will happen to fertile land or oil production then some of those people mostly in the third world are going to starve to death.

For example china used to have sterilisation programme to limit population growth. Perhaps they still have.

you can imagine, if starvation strikes then life wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Not speaking of testicles that are producing misery.

I don't believe that huge castration programmes will be initiated by western states in third world but sterilisation programmes for sure.

I know that is sounds inhumane etc. But if harsh reality is that you can not feed so many people on earth then you have to do something about it. Is miserable life and death better then? For example like china, one child policy or sterilisation programme.

So, for sterilisation those are most valuable who haven't had any children yet. There is no point to sterilise old guys who already have 5 children. So the decision must be made early in life. Either have children with miserable perspective, or receive benefits and get sterilized. I do not set any certain age here, but you understand my point.

It could be that culture of eunuchs will return then. Male to Eunuch transgenderism. It won't be massive of course, as the percentage of such people in the whole population is very small. Steriles and eunuchs are given rights to emigrate to west, as they won't have problematic offspring as we experience it in Europe, who riot and burn down cars on the streets.

here I stop my thinking. I hope I didn't say anything incorrect.

[Batman (imported)]

There are other ways aside from Eunuchism to halt reproduction. For instance when I was diagnosed as being low testosterone, my Endo put me on T. Within 6 months I went to 0 sperm count. Plus there is vasectomy, tube tying/hysterectomies...

I did hear, they were working on a T based shot as male birth control, but that was in 2001 and haven't heard anything more.

Batman

[transward (imported)]

Picture it this way. Remember the Japanese "Lotus foot"? Foot binding. Now, picture psychological stunting and what it does to a young mind and you will begin to see what I mean.

A bit of historical nit-picking. Foot binding was a purely Chinese, not Japanese practice. The Japanese banned it when they took over Taiwan in 1915.

Transward

[mrt (imported)]

I think GID or BID? Is a valid medical issue. And I think that if you have this issue your going to know about it pretty young. We talked before about how much better it is to transition earlier rather then later for the most easy and effective transition. So, I say age is not the important issue. Knowing "why" and working that out with a good doctor is the point. Then there maybe a worthwhile trade off such as doing a chemical castration until 18 for example. Then the final decision is done at a "legal" age of consent and you won't have to deal with all the difficulties with later age transition.

[nonuts (imported)]

His name was David Reimerhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/background/reimer

Tragic story! I wonder the coincidence the doctor's name was "Money". Society is very label and role orientated, and so sadly there is such damage from it. Why can't we accept that people are not so easily compartmentalized in nice tidy boxes? That in fact those that can't be contained are what makes the human experience so incredible to be a part of? Love the freak, God knows, I am glad someone loves this one.

[nullorchis (imported)]

When you are young and have not yet experienced puberty and it's plusses and minuses, it would be too soon to an individual or society to choose pre-puberty voluntary surgical castration.

Once you finally experience puberty you are then in a position to know the before and after, the pros and cons.

Having lived thru puberty and far beyond that stage, I know that if I could go back in time I would choose pre-puberty surgical castration for myself. However neither society, the law, nor myself could know this during my pre-puberty years.

I lived my entire life, long before I knew anyone else had such feelings, long before the internet, knowing I desired and needed to be rid of my balls so that I could be rid of my sexuality. I still have not achieved surgical castration but at least I have finally achieved sexual neutrality via full chemical suppression of my aging natural low T level. (siterone)

I would never presume that anyone should choose pre-puberty castration or that it should be chosen for them. We just have to do life one second at a time and work towards each new second and do the best we can.

[graylayer02 (imported)]

Well Money was at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore; the Reimers were from Canada; and I'll take your word on the English connection; so this seems to not have been confined to one country. Yeah, serious people actually believed in the 1960s and 1970s that nurture could always trump nature, even down to the point of thinking that boys can be arbitrarily turned into girls, or that the culture of poverty could be eliminated by giving people money. Teachers and shrinks still sometimes act like this, down to the point of banning any kind of competitive behavior or mildly rough play in schools.

There's still a bit of this belief out there, but the biological basis of identity and behavior is very interesting...and VERY politically incorrect to talk about...though the pendulum is swinging back somewhat. Yes, dumb parents have dumb kids; parents with a 'bit of the gay' often have gay kids; and gender identity can vary from physical reality in a way that seems to be hardwired. What's interesting is when gender identity gets hardwired into something that's not the usual M or F.

Speaking from personal experience, I think that there are obvious cases where a M2F or M2E or a F2* identity can be established from an early age, but there's the obvious issue of parents. How do we set up a system where gender-variant kids get the help they need? Picture a situation where there's a young scared M2E boy who just can't tell his parents because they won't understand even though they're otherwise reasonable loving people...so then the boy goes through puberty and spends the next 15 or so years trying to figure out what to do next, knowing that he'll be dependent on testosterone all his life...still scared as hell until he finally makes the jump, knowing that he still can't be fully honest with everyone, but at least he can be honest with himself.

I like mrt's proposal of chemical-then-wait-a-while since this is likely to be less scary to parents, and they're the ones that we have to get on board. I know of one or two anecdotal cases of M2E boys who were SO enterprising that they got what they wanted at an early age, but this is pretty unusual. The point of his proposal, I think, is to make it possible for young M2Es to be able to even talk about this and to deal with this at the appropriate age. It's hard even for young gay boys to bring up THAT subject, so we need to somehow encourage those who need help to come forward.

Once an untreated M2E does go through puberty and testosterone dependence sets in, I do suggest waiting a while (until the early to mid-20s at least) as the physical and mental changes kind of settle down. Transitioning post-puberty requires a very strong sense of confidence and identity and mental focus, not to mention judgment and the ability to deal with serious tradeoffs. There are also the usual life changes that happen around this time, though about the worst thing that can happen is for a gay M2E boy to jump into a heterosexual marriage. Treatment would have to be decided on a case by case basis, I think, since the tradeoffs post-puberty are very serious ones.

[nullorchis (imported)]

Does a male need to be gay to desire M2E ? What about straight M2E?

While I have always been gay since day 1 of puberty, I always think that had I been straight and interested in women they would have been enough to drive me to desire M2E.

[nullorchis (imported)]

In a utopian society there could be an argument for extracting healthy sperm cells from a male just as starts to produce them, storing them for future use, and then castrating the male.

Testosterone filled men just seem to keep making a mess of the world. A world with men without balls and use of artificial insemination (from healthy sperm) to continue the species, while certainly controversial, just seems like it could have many positive benefits (especially in reducing rape in other types of sexual violence.......let alone perhaps wars).

Testosterone replacement drugs would probably become more in demand than heroine so dealing with and controlling cheaters might become a new issue to deal with.

[mrt (imported)]

Well I have to disagree with your concept of men full of Testosterone. I think that testosterone is blamed for a lot of behavior thats just not correct. I've been at low levels and was a poster boy for mental depression. I've had a tad too much and got an inkling of what people who truly abuse it feel with roid rage. But "normal" or rather average levels make me (I think) a pretty nice guy and give me the capacity to function.

I think the idea of regular castration and sperm removal is too much Sci Fi

As to the question of "non medical" castrations. I think since this does not include what I think are medical reasons such as GID (Transexualism), Orchialgia etc that what we are talking about is fetish or kink castration and in my opinion the proper age for that is never. Ditto people who want their arms / legs removed for thrills.

[thekinkykid (imported)]

Okay, what do you all think the youngest a guy should be before he can be legally castrated for reasons other than medical reason? Like if he wants to be castrated at a young age do you think the boy should be allowed to have it done?

Its been a while since I have been on here.

Oh and I know its a bit late but Merry Christmas and Happy New Year's.

I am not sure.

Personally, I wanted to be cut when I was 10 as much as I want it now, and I would have appreciated to have the opportunity. But this is me, other people would probably regret deeply to have been cut without being able to reconsider the idea in a more advanced stage of development. I think it should be decided on an individual basis.

[JustAGuy (imported)]

There has been quite a few different opinions on this thread. I think that if the boy or man is thoroughly informed of all the risks and benefits of it then I do not think there should be an age limit, but if I would make the limit I would say 10 or older. By the age of 10 I think the person would know what they wanted in this aspect given they have all the information.

[Uncle Flo (imported)]

I didn't know I was interested in castration until I was in my 20's and I didn't realize I wanted castration until I was in my 30's. I was castrated in my 60's. Most of the time it was a low priority for me. I was married, I had children, I had a very active sex life and all kinds of other things going on in my life. Looking back, I think I should have had it done when I first knew I wanted it and had the opportunity. I also see where it would have been good to have it done even earlier such as in my early 20's or even in my late teens, although I question if I would have been emotionally ready at that time. --FLO--

[Paolo]

Having been dragged through the proverbial mud and blood and financial wasteland of having helped raise five (5) boys - and #6 just came along last year - I've had plenty of experience in dealing the issues of diapers, puberty, male genitals, sexual identity, malfunctions of the male genitals, and even injuries to them.

First off, none of our gang of thugs ever exhibited signs of gender dysphoria in any way, shape, or form. They were all 100% male all the way to the bone. In the case of Kim, the youngest transexual recently discussed - we never had an issue like that. HOWEVER, if #6 should exhibit any signs of this nature that prove to not be a passing fad, I will step in and intervene with his redneck parents.

I have no problem with the administration of drugs such as depo-$-lupron to delay the onset of genetically (XY) induced puberty. In fact, I support it, up to the point where "eunuchoid features" like macroskeletalism may start to become an issue. By then, you've got to decide, and be able to see it coming.

I also have no problem with an XY-child being given estrogen to begin transition, IF and only IFF (that's a math term, 'IFF') he has believed himself to be a girl since early childhood. As for surgery, such as castration only, I would not support this act below age 16 for an absolute minimum. As I said, if "little Billy" starts wanting dolls and wearing dresses at age 2 or 3, then yep, there's gonna be some careful monitoring going on.

I have had a couple of experiences where I had serious discussions (with the parents' blessing) with boys who raised the issue of castration. All fantasy aside. These were boys who exhibited no female traits whatsoever. They played baseball, football, you name it. They played with toy trucks and BB guns. Violent little monsters, in fact, just like you'd expect.

The main issue, which I immediately went for, was they had no idea what testicles were for. Once this was cleared up, the idea of being castrated suddenly didn't sound quite so good to them. Granted, I am not a trained therapist, but I do have several child psychology courses with good marks! Once a boy understands that his testicles aren't just targets for a wild baseball or something for a buddy to punch, their outlook changes rapidly.

This is where the understanding of gender identity issues comes into play.

I also don't believe that any of them that I talked to showed MtE signs, either. Of course, only my personal experience in not identifying with the "stereotypical male role model" served as my basis for this conclusion. These boys had older brothers, as well as fathers that I deemed "competent." (And that takes a LOT for me to give a father a passing grade.) In the end, they wanted to turn out just like their older male role models. Had any of them expressed doubts, I would not have had a problem with recommending to their parents to seek more professional counseling, even up to the point of delaying puberty.

To only one mother that I know very well did I confess, "I personally do not identify as a male, but I have ZERO desire to be a woman." She took it rather well. I was worried about her husband, for a while...I hope she didn't slip any androcur into his coffee!