Disproportionate numbers

[kristoff]

Point of curiosity and item for discussion. All theories welcome.

According to reputable, peer reviewed research, the total population at large will have anywhere from 8% to 10% gay male population. Other figures have been reported, some are less tenable, and not at issue here. The figures for gay women are different, and not of concern here.

A quick polling of the registered membership at the EA shows a gay population of about 35%. The EA Survey rresults show results in the same ballpark.

My question is Why?

Is the incidence of BIID or M2E Gender Dysphoria greater in this population?

Is there increased (hyper) sexual awareness? Greater inclination to explore sexual fantasies that include castration, etc?

Is there an increased level of self-revulsion, such that one desires self-punishment through castration (a bit Freudian, perhaps, but still possible)?

Other ideas? Gay and Not-Gay responses, theories, ideas are all welcome and encouraged. This has been a question that has long been on the table since the first EA Survey.

[tugon (imported)]

My first thought is I wonder if we will see a decrease in gay members as society becomes more accepting of gays. I remember the environment I grew up in and it was tough to love ones self. I am also aware of several men who were castrated for religious reasons. In the past there were many messages in the media, peer groups, parents, churches and schools that being gay is the worst thing that could happen to someone.

I would be curious as to the age of gay members. Are there as many joining the EA in their late teens and early twenties as we have gay members who have joined and are now in their 40's and 50's? I know more work but it might be a measure of society's influence.

My reasons as a gay person for becoming a eunuch were initially not feeling like I was good at being a boy. Of course at about the same time was sexual abuse that I totally repressed. Then of course a father who would verbally and physically abuse me for doing something less than masculine. Finally was to stop my great sexual compulsion.

Since I never felt the need to be masculine or to be something I was not my testicles were not as important to me as other men. I never felt they defined me in any way. I actually like myself more since the T factories are gone.

[DavidB (imported)]

I think that the Gay community is more enlightened about their sexuality and self identiy and therefore more open to acceptance of who they are. Thus being willing to accept that a eunuch state may be more appropriate for them. I think that as acceptance for the eunuch state grows, more straight people will be showing up here, bringing the average back to normal

[graylayer02 (imported)]

(snip)

Is there increased (hyper) sexual awareness? Greater inclination to explore sexual fantasies that include castration, etc?

Is there an increased level of self-revulsion, such that one desires self-punishment through castration (a bit Freudian, perhaps, but still possible)?

(snip again)

Personal experience, n=1.

Gay and castrated here.

The self-revulsion hypothesis is interesting, since maybe 4 years ago I was dealing with self-revulsion, the gay thing, and wanting to be a eunuch, all at the same time. I dealt with the gay thing first, head-on, then the self-revulsion cleared up as if it were a case of the sniffles.

It also helps that I don't much like kids anyway, came to accept that (along with the gay thing), and that allowed me to confront the preexisting castration desires. That came next, and I've resolved that in steps, with success, over the past year or so.

Hypersexual awareness? Not sure what to compare myself against. Definitely I've needed to be very aware of myself in sexual situations, but I dunno, hard to say.

[Paolo]

Other than hyper sexuality, I'm with Tugon.

[Batman (imported)]

I would guess at least for some Religion would play a role. Being taught all your life that what you desire is sinful. Seems to me it would put your focus on the source of the desires...

[Arab Nights (imported)]

Gay and Not-Gay responses, theories, ideas are all welcome and encouraged.

Boy did you open the can of worms!

My theory is that some personality traits tend to come in packages.

For example, if you want to be around smokers, work in construction or drilling, become a gambler or join some group like APEX which is home to everybody who likes everything but male-female missionary position. The portion of smokers from observation is much higher than the national average.

This is not to say that we are not individuals, etc. Just that we are a bundle of characteristics and some tend to group together. Not an absolute rule, just a tendency.

[gareth19 (imported)]

Well, to begin, "gay" is a catch-all category that includes many varieties of non-straight behavior. Note that Chaz Bono ne Chastity Bono originally self-identified as a lesbian but has now determined that he/she suffers from gender-dysphoria. Therefore, it is not unexpected that some members would identify as belonging to both groups.

Also, this site is something of a Shadowlands site, and as others have pointed out gays tend to be more accepting of things that are anomalous or liminal, so the higher gay population is not unusual or unexpected. Note that the same thing occurs in things like the theater and art. Notice too that membership in less accepting groups such as the Aryan Brotherhood, the KKK, Evangelical churches, or the Republican National Committee will have a much lower gay membership (even when closet cases like Ted Haggard are counted) than the predicted 8 to 10%. There is an element of self-selection involved. Gays can say things on this site that they can't say at home around the dinner table.

[Riverwind (imported)]

I think tugon, batman, and Gareth19 are on it.

River

[madepeel (imported)]

Let's see... I'm gay, over 50, raised in evengelical church - but yet was oldest male of oldest male in direct line, so was up to me to 'insure the name is carried on'.

...and some of my earliest castration fantasies (before I even knew what GAY was) involved gruesome, forced castration of prominent members of my community.

so - how does that fit ME in??????? <grin!>

[kristoff]

Curiosity going, I did a closer check on some member stats.

Total Registered Membership When Checked = 3,952

When asked orientation, members responded thus:

Gay = 1,181 = 29.88%

Lesbian = 61 = 1.54%

Bisexual = 443 = 11.21%

Asexual = 156 = 3.95%

Straight = 1,872 = 47.37%

Other = 22 = 0.56%

No Answer = 217 = 5.49%

[Dharkbus (imported)]

erm I think its something to do with self hate, societal influences, and chemical imbalances.

I think gays have gotten or still are getting the shitty end of the stick when it comes to society, people tend to pick on those different from themselves and gays are. Being in a bad place because you've been socially ostracized often triggers other urges. I use to be a cutter, but I'd only cut when I got really depressed, or certain other triggers. Thus I think to some extent some of the castration urges are related to an amount of stress/depression. thats my experience.

Strickly speaking I also think that its because, and don't lynch me here, the brain is a complex mix of chemical reactions and when one part of the brain is diffrent it tends to impact other areas. I feel that for myself diffrent urges and feelings have significantly impacted my sex life, I deeply desire a good relationship, but any relationship I have gotten into has been very short and usually I objectify my partner and use them, having very little mental connection. I always feel bad about it and I eventually break up with said partner due to said such guilt.

I believe its contributed to my lack of social development, in the sexuality department(I'm 24 and a virgin )

meh overall I'm not sure but can only share what I've experianced and make conjectures from there

[devi (imported)]

A lot of people would definately consider me to be gay as a matter of fact. However I simply just cannot feel comfortable in gay establishments or around very openly gay communitiess for several reasons. I could never do anything like what that pastor Haggart had done. So where this leaves me I just don't know. There just has to be some kind of distinguishment between the different types of what society considers to be "gay".

Since all through-out school and among my brothers I was THE light-weight weakling for starters and had to develop a certain amount of forcefulness and a certain ready to fight attitude in my character in order to not be pushed around. When I'm around gay people this would translate to me being characterized as a "butch" which at heart I really am not. But by the same token I will not be mistreated and not at all a "bottom" either but however I once did manage to get raped by a man who said my skin was soft enough for him. I would rather simply just have a best-friend "buddy" to have around. In the past these relationships have been male. But then I do have that extra X chromosome. I also cannot nor could I ever reproduce. So somehow the meaning of being "gay" comes out as very meaningless to me. And then again maybe it should be meaningless for everyone else as well. I don't know.

[transward (imported)]

There is a sizable portion of the population for whom "straight" is Bubba and Boopsie in the missionary position in the dark, and any other form of sexual behavior is "queer." These are unlikely to be EA members, at least openly. The percentage of gays among the remaining population is probably not that far off the percentage here.

Transward

[Kortpeel (imported)]

My reasons as a gay person for becoming a eunuch were initially not feeling like I was good at being a boy. Of course at about the same time was sexual abuse that I totally repressed. Then of course a father who would verbally and physically abuse me for doing something less than masculine. Finally was to stop my great sexual compulsion.

Abuse of gay male children, leading to self loathing in later life always strikes me as horribly unfair. Growing up is hard enough without that extra load to carry.

The role of churches in this, denouncing gaydom from the pulpit, is sheer ignorance if not downright evil.

It occurs to me that some sort of mass action law suit could be taken against a prominent anti gay pundit. In the US gays are probably organised enough to do this. There are almost certainly gay lawyers to make a case for unlawful prejudice or whatever. The precedent, once established, should improve life for a lot of people. Especially young boys.

And such action would certainly be well covered in the media.

But when all the gays succeed in gaining emancipation - just don't make it compulsory.

[jemagirl (imported)]

A lot of people would definately consider me to be gay as a matter of fact. However I simply just cannot feel comfortable in gay establishments or around very openly gay communitiess for several reasons. I could never do anything like what that pastor Haggart had done. So where this leaves me I just don't know. There just has to be some kind of distinguishment between the different types of what society considers to be "gay".

Since all through-out school and among my brothers I was THE light-weight weakling for starters and had to develop a certain amount of forcefulness and a certain ready to fight attitude in my character in order to not be pushed around. When I'm around gay people this would translate to me being characterized as a "butch" which at heart I really am not. But by the same token I will not be mistreated and not at all a "bottom" either but however I once did manage to get raped by a man who said my skin was soft enough for him. I would rather simply just have a best-friend "buddy" to have around. In the past these relationships have been male. But then I do have that extra X chromosome. I also cannot nor could I ever reproduce. So somehow the meaning of being "gay" comes out as very meaningless to me. And then again maybe it should be meaningless for everyone else as well. I don't know.

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying, though I don't have the extra X chromosome.

I do want to say though that I don't feel Pastor Ted Haggard is gay... rather I think of him as being a self loathing homosexual man desperately trying to be accepted in a homophobic culture.

[NathanB17 (imported)]

I have often wondered why castration etc seems more popular an idea with gay men than any other group. Is it because we are more open to fantasy and erotic thoughts and play? I work with all straight men and when broach the subject if fetish , fantasy etc just get a total blank look and a categorical no. The majority of straight men don't really explore their sexuality and bodies but just concentrate on the act of sex with the woman. This is not all straight men but the greater percentage.

I know some gay men desire castration because they cannot and will not accept bein gay is just as normal as being straight and maybe for those men castration is the right answer rather than self harm or suicide.

[erikboy (imported)]

Point of curiosity and item for discussion. All theories welcome.

According to reputable, peer reviewed research, the total population at large will have anywhere from 8% to 10% gay male population. Other figures have been reported, some are less tenable, and not at issue here. The figures for gay women are different, and not of concern here.

A quick polling of the registered membership at the EA shows a gay population of about 35%. The EA Survey rresults show results in the same ballpark.

My question is Why?

Is the incidence of BIID or M2E Gender Dysphoria greater in this population?

Is there increased (hyper) sexual awareness? Greater inclination to explore sexual fantasies that include castration, etc?

Is there an increased level of self-revulsion, such that one desires self-punishment through castration (a bit Freudian, perhaps, but still possible)?

Other ideas? Gay and Not-Gay responses, theories, ideas are all welcome and encouraged. This has been a question that has long been on the table since the first EA Survey.

Numbers certainly point on something. Only we don't know what it is. I think it is deep in human sexual behaviour structure, which is in our brains. And unfortunately not much is known about that. We just know that gay men do fantasise much more about being castrated. Most cases, such fantasy brings pleasure. Only few have rational arguments for castration, like I want to be castrated because I don't like maleness or I don't like appeareance of testicles etc. And even then, most who say so, need to have some rational excuse for their irrational desire. One could blame anything in his past like parents saying or doing this or that, or being molested one or another way, but in reality it can not be proved scientifically.

What is known for sure is that being a gay is not the result of molesting or bad parenting.

Thus I tend to think that castration fantasies aren't learnt behavioral patterns.

Basically it remains a mystery. And Kristoff question remain unanswered despite interesting connections.

I start to feel that we need some kind of University or Scientific organisation start to work with us. We provide questions and they answers. Perhaps

[mrt (imported)]

I had PVTs from a variety of people who have what they think are "weird" sexual needs. Some are just gay people, others seem to have some kind of sexual identity issue but all want nothing to do with their Testicles and what that means to them. I think that Testosterone gets a bad rap based at least on my experiences.

People (reguardless of their sexual parts or hormones) can be nice or total jerks. Can hormones be a factor in that? I think so, but not in the way that most people would think. With low lab numbers I was pretty awful. And total ass in many ways. When I got on HRT to get me to the range that most people would agree is normal male levels I became a lot more calmed down, nice and able to think clearly. I know this might not be anyone elses experience but anyway, thats me.

If I was gay and wanted to reject that? Would castration solve it? I don't really think so. I think your still wired gay but now your sexual needs are lower and your dealing with mood problems, energy, etc etc etc.

Of course you could go on Estrogen but if your a Gay male and on estrogen that seems like a solution that causes a lot of significant problems and doesn't eliminate your sex drive. Its "different" because female wiring is different but your still going to be capable of getting horny. And if your Gay? I don't see how this changes anything unless you go forward with GRS and live a "female" life and end up being June Cleaver to your Ward.

Hopefully things will change in our society so that people who are Gay don't feel the need for any sort of self loathing and can just be who they are. If people on the other hand have a gender disorder I think the better "new world" is that they can be treated sooner rather then later and that insurance will cover this as it ought to.

[bobweekend (imported)]

Between around Oct 03-Apr 04 I went through a major depression, which turned out to be the effects of low testosterone.

Once I started HRT the depression cleared, but, my guys started to shrink and even with HCG I could not keep them consistent. The left one started causing me pain. I ask my Dr. why not just replace them. I am gay not interested in having kids, so what do I need em for.

I even went to a shrink for 6 months just to make sure I would not regret my choice.

I could not find a Dr. to help me so a friend helped and on June 18th 2005 he cut open my sac tied off the cords and said cut here. I cut my guys off and we put in very large neuticles.

It was one of the most amazing days of my life.

If I were in a relationship which included the responsibilities of becoming a father then I probably would not have done it.

Not having that burden allows more gay guys the freedom to actually do the deed. Not that gay guys don't want to be dads, I have a friend in OK who is trying desperately at a cost of $1000 per attempt. That is the only thing that is preventing him from taking this step. Once he is a dad he is going to join the family.

Bob

[Losethem (imported)]

None of this applies to me. I'm gay and I simply wanted my balls off. I am happy I did it, and would do it again if they grew back. My body is how I wanted it.

[dis539 (imported)]

i find all this interesting because everyone says that they are gay, straight or bi, but i have done a lot of thinking about this and i would say my sexuality is "submissive". Now i have had sex with both men and women but what i enjoy is being submissive and to be used by my partner for his/her pleasure. My pleasure comes from their pleasure.

[mrt (imported)]

i find all this interesting because everyone says that they are gay, straight or bi, but i have done a lot of thinking about this and i would say my sexuality is "submissive". Now i have had sex with both men and women but what i enjoy is being submissive and to be used by my partner for his/her pleasure. My pleasure comes from their pleasure.

I think most relationships (gay, bi, straight) have some amount of this. If your sexuality is all about JUST yourself? Ahh... Not too healthy. Maybe for people who wank a lot and live with mom...

On the other hand if its ONLY about the other person? I think in all things a little bit of balance is a good thing.

[butterflyjack (imported)]

This is a very interesting topic...The self loathing part hits home with me...For many years, I have tortured my penis...sewed it up to look like a vagina...and finally, after retiring(I was in a job where one would be nude in front of fellow male workers) I pierced my penis...It remains heavily pierced to this day...

I have had a castration fantasy for a long long time...I have also been a crossdresser since my youth...and have a strong foot fetish...

I am, in this same vein (I think) a recovering alcoholic, over sixteen years sober..All these things may very well be interrelated...The interesting question , to me, is....am I gay? Bi? Straight? I think bi would be closest to the truth...

I still love women..especially large women..Overpowering women...(again ..fits this mould)...

Anybody else here as screwed up as me?? Let's hear it!

dragonfly

[sensenbender (imported)]

If you include the bisexual count in the gay stats listed by Kristoff you have nearly equal numbers of 'gay' and 'straight' members of EA. How gay is 'gay'? How straight is 'straight'? I don't consider myself to be 'gay', but I am a 'homophile', i.e. a man who likes men. I also like women. I'm even married and have been for 35 years, although we're now getting divorced. My earliest sexual fantasies were of Brigit Bardo. My earliest sexual drawings (at age 10) were of boys with balls but no dick (I put a hole in place of the dick so the boy could be fucked through it). My first lover was a boy of 14 when I was also 14

I have thousands of pictures and films on 'gay' themes and very few that show women or girls. Yet I get off sometimes on stories about little girls getting fucked, etc. I am not self loathing at all. I love being male and I like sex, both real sex (mostly being fucked) and fantasy sex with masturbation. I have castration fantasies and I like to use sex toys to push my balls away so I look and feel castrated, but I wouldn't want to actually lose my balls or my testosterone count. I write castration stories and post them on EA.

Bottom line is I doubt the distinctions between 'gay' and 'straight'. People are just sexual, period. And those who are asexual used to be sexual and didn't like it for some reason known only to them and perhaps not even to them. It is said that the sex act is a small death. One expells a small portion of one's life force, one's living tissue (i.e. sperm). Expelling the testicles altogether is a somewhat bigger death. My conclusion, then, is that castration and castration fantasy is a form of death wish, just as sex is partly a desire to create new life by relinquishing one's own.