Say me ,please, about of advantage and disadvantage
prepubertate boy's castration.
What is best age for this operation?
Sorry my poor english.
little boy castration
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A-1 (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
nothing, unless you are a dead Pope.
not to mention doubling that nothing if you are a little boy...
A-1
not to mention doubling that nothing if you are a little boy...
A-1
Re: little boy castration
The practice of intentionally castrating little boys (prepubescent) has fallen by the wayside. There are rumors flying around that it still happens, but they are just that - rumors.
While it is medically acceptable (if not rare) to castrate a young boy for various reasons including serious injury or torsion of the testicles, or in the case of disease, it's not something like taking their tonsils out. You just don't walk into a Doctor's office and say, "Hello, how much to castrate my son?"
The practice was banned in 1878 as far the Italian castrato singers went, and the last of the known Chinese eunuchs died in 1996 at the age of 94 ... or was it age 96 in 1994? I forget ... someone go look that one up. Thanks.
Castration / sterilization of boys was also practiced in institutions for the mentally ill and upon epileptics as well. The practice has - to the best of MY knowledge - been discontinued. I do have a newspaper knocking about here somewhere in the mess about an elderly man who was involuntarily sterilized here in Indiana in the 1930's, I think it was. I will have to find it.
Stories also state that castration, even total nullification of young boys, is still going on in certain Arab nations and African countries in the slave trade. Jesus A. seems to know more about this than anyone, so perhaps he will respond.
There are also cases of Guardians of certain tombs in the Islamic culture which are guarded by eunuchs, but I have little to no information on this sidelight. If anyone does, please post.
While it might be a topic for stories or fantasies, it's just not something that's a part of life anymore, unlike, oh, 200 years ago or so. Castration is no longer a job requirement as it used to be. We don't have the Castrati singers, we don't need harem guards, and our politicians and certain other positions are no longer filled by eunuchs.
Draw your own conclusions on that one.
While it is medically acceptable (if not rare) to castrate a young boy for various reasons including serious injury or torsion of the testicles, or in the case of disease, it's not something like taking their tonsils out. You just don't walk into a Doctor's office and say, "Hello, how much to castrate my son?"
The practice was banned in 1878 as far the Italian castrato singers went, and the last of the known Chinese eunuchs died in 1996 at the age of 94 ... or was it age 96 in 1994? I forget ... someone go look that one up. Thanks.
Castration / sterilization of boys was also practiced in institutions for the mentally ill and upon epileptics as well. The practice has - to the best of MY knowledge - been discontinued. I do have a newspaper knocking about here somewhere in the mess about an elderly man who was involuntarily sterilized here in Indiana in the 1930's, I think it was. I will have to find it.
Stories also state that castration, even total nullification of young boys, is still going on in certain Arab nations and African countries in the slave trade. Jesus A. seems to know more about this than anyone, so perhaps he will respond.
There are also cases of Guardians of certain tombs in the Islamic culture which are guarded by eunuchs, but I have little to no information on this sidelight. If anyone does, please post.
While it might be a topic for stories or fantasies, it's just not something that's a part of life anymore, unlike, oh, 200 years ago or so. Castration is no longer a job requirement as it used to be. We don't have the Castrati singers, we don't need harem guards, and our politicians and certain other positions are no longer filled by eunuchs.
Draw your own conclusions on that one.
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
I find prepubertal castration interesting from a fantasy point of view. For one thing, the boy will never grow a beard or body hair, so he won't have to shave. (I personally resent having to shave all the time, and if my legs were smooth I'd like that too.)
He wouldn't grow up to be as strong as other men, due to lack of testosterone, though.
There's got to be some real life eunuchs out there who lost (or did not have) their testicles before puberty. I wouldn't be surprised if the medical establishment put most of them on HRT, though.
He wouldn't grow up to be as strong as other men, due to lack of testosterone, though.
There's got to be some real life eunuchs out there who lost (or did not have) their testicles before puberty. I wouldn't be surprised if the medical establishment put most of them on HRT, though.
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Andrew (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
deboys (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:20 pm Say me ,please, about of advantage and disadvantage
prepubertate boy's castration.
What is best age for this operation?
Sorry my poor english.
It is now against the law in every civilized country to castrate boys before the age of 18, which is when "informed consent" can be established. If you really need this kind of masturbation material, I suggest you leave the Eunuch Archives, go over to GOOGLE, and type in "Italian Opera castrati" and follow the links.
As usual, just my own humble opinion, not intending to speak for the EA or for anybody else in it.
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A-1 (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
you say that....
I am not sure if that is completely true. Some of the literature that I have unearthed on the web and posted here along with the source web address claims that the Castrati were...
Castrati were particularly known for their unique timbre: because of the surgery performed on them, their voice did not change with puberty. Upon adulthood, the size of their thoracic cage, their lung capacity, their physical stamina and their strength were usually above that of most men. They had, as a consequence, great vocal power, and some were able to sing notes for a minute or more. Finally, a small and flexible larynx, and relatively short vocal chords allowed them to vocalize over a rather wide range (over 3 and 1/2 octaves) and to sing with great agility (they could control wide intervals, long cascades and trills). Furthermore, castrati were initially selected among the best singers and received intensive training.
This quote was take from the post...
!!!! Farinelli !!!!
...on the Non-Fiction Articles area of this message board.
The castration of boys between the ages of 7 and 12 almost certainly lengthened their growth cycles, delaying the fusing of their skeletal growth sites, thus enabling them to grow taller than their contemporaries.
It could possibly be the case that the lack of sex hormones could cause a longer period of growth, thus enabling one to grow taller and bigger because one could grow for a longer period of time. Also, many were fed the best food, and nourishment helps one to grow bigger also. This seems to born out by written literature.
It is difficult to know because it has not been done to boys of the mentioned age groups for a long time. Some things we probably do not need to know.
Thanks!
A-1
happousai (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:22 pm He wouldn't grow up to be as strong as other men, due to lack of testosterone, though.
I am not sure if that is completely true. Some of the literature that I have unearthed on the web and posted here along with the source web address claims that the Castrati were...
Castrati were particularly known for their unique timbre: because of the surgery performed on them, their voice did not change with puberty. Upon adulthood, the size of their thoracic cage, their lung capacity, their physical stamina and their strength were usually above that of most men. They had, as a consequence, great vocal power, and some were able to sing notes for a minute or more. Finally, a small and flexible larynx, and relatively short vocal chords allowed them to vocalize over a rather wide range (over 3 and 1/2 octaves) and to sing with great agility (they could control wide intervals, long cascades and trills). Furthermore, castrati were initially selected among the best singers and received intensive training.
This quote was take from the post...
!!!! Farinelli !!!!
...on the Non-Fiction Articles area of this message board.
The castration of boys between the ages of 7 and 12 almost certainly lengthened their growth cycles, delaying the fusing of their skeletal growth sites, thus enabling them to grow taller than their contemporaries.
It could possibly be the case that the lack of sex hormones could cause a longer period of growth, thus enabling one to grow taller and bigger because one could grow for a longer period of time. Also, many were fed the best food, and nourishment helps one to grow bigger also. This seems to born out by written literature.
It is difficult to know because it has not been done to boys of the mentioned age groups for a long time. Some things we probably do not need to know.
Thanks!
A-1
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
>
It just occurred to me that this practice does happen regularly in India, due to the Hijra.
Does anyone have medical information on the Hijra?
---
Also, what about chemical castration (e.g. by administering Androcur), which does not involve cutting off the boy's testicles - would this be legal in some civilized countries?
---
There are also boys who are castrated for medical reasons. For example, the following message is from a guy who tells how he was castrated at the age of 5 due to undescended testicles (you may need to be subscribed to the MenWithoutBalls YahooGroup to read it):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenWithou ... essage/204
He was put on HRT however, so he doesn't count.
Andrew (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:56 pm It is now against the law in every civilized country to
> castrate boys before the age of 18
It just occurred to me that this practice does happen regularly in India, due to the Hijra.
Does anyone have medical information on the Hijra?
---
Also, what about chemical castration (e.g. by administering Androcur), which does not involve cutting off the boy's testicles - would this be legal in some civilized countries?
---
There are also boys who are castrated for medical reasons. For example, the following message is from a guy who tells how he was castrated at the age of 5 due to undescended testicles (you may need to be subscribed to the MenWithoutBalls YahooGroup to read it):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MenWithou ... essage/204
He was put on HRT however, so he doesn't count.
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JesusA
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Re: little boy castration
There are several possible reasons for the "castration" (in the broadest sense) of small boys in the twenty-first century.
1) DISEASE or INJURY resulting in the loss of one or both testicles. This is fairly rare, but not unknown. My nephew lost one testicle to injury when he was young. I had to keep reminding everyone in the family that a significant design feature of humans is redundant systems. He still has one functioning testicle and the three children to prove that it works just fine. He went through early puberty and looks hyper-masculine because of the abundance of testosterone produced by the survivor. He did not need or undergo any HRT. VERY rarely a boy will loose both testicles to disease or injury. In the modern world HRT will produce all of the signs of normal puberty, except that he will remain sterile with no place to produce sperm. With implantation of prostheses, no one would ever suspect that he was a eunuch unless told. Extremely rarely, one or both testicles will atrophy and disappear spontaneously. I know of one case where a boy had very small testicles at his physical examination at age 12. At age 13 neither testicle could be found and HRT was begun to provide normal puberty. Prostheses were inserted at age 15 so that he would not feel embarrassed showering in the gym. With continued HRT, he is outwardly fully masculine, married and with an adopted child.
2) FAILURE of existing testicles to function properly. Hypogonadism has a multitude of causes, some well understood and some not yet. In most cases HRT will produce normal puberty and development (with or without growth of the testicles and with or without production of viable sperm depending on the cause). And this is the standard practice in any part of the world with modern medical care. Some of the counter-tenors (adult male sopranos) singing today are said to have untreated hypogonadism, though there are unsubstantiated rumors that some of them have actually been physically castrated before puberty. The most persistent rumors swirled about the late Brazilian countertenor Paolo Abel do Nascimento and there are continuing rumors about the Ukrainian countertenor Oleg Riabets. Both are claimed to have untreated hypogonadism. However....... [there are several notes related to castrati and countertenors on the non-fiction board]
3) PHYSICAL CASTRATION for no medical necessity. There is no place in the modern world where this is legally sanctioned! It has happened more recently than Paolo's post would have us believe, however. Slavery was not legally abolished in Saudi Arabia until 1962 and continued to exist in parts of the country well beyond that date. There is clear documentation of slave boys being castrated by slave dealers and in Saudi hospitals as late as the mid-1950s. (See the publications of Anti-Slavery International or Sean O'Callaghan's book "The Slave Trade Today" for details) I had a Saudi friend in graduate school who claimed that he knew a slave boy who had been castrated in the mid-1960s in southwestern Saudi Arabia. I have no reason to doubt his report. In the mid-1970s, Anti-Slavery International reported on the castration of small boys in Afghanistan to serve as sex toys. In the 1980s, Louis Dupree wrote in one of his books about Afghanistan that he was surprised to discover that one of the dancing boys (popular teahouse entertainers) he interviewed had NOT been castrated. In the 1990s Anti-Slavery International reported on the castration of two southern Sudanese (Black) boys of 10 and 12 in the Sudan to make them better domestic servants in the Arab north of the country. There are current rumors that some rural Indian families have dedicated a young son to the goddess Bahucharamata and had him castrated to join the hijira. I have not been able to track down any clear evidence of the truth of these rumors. The youngest Indian case I have found proof of is the castration of a 15 year-old near Baroda in 1982. Clearly post-puberty, though certainly not yet an adult. [a full report is on the non-fiction board] Does the castration of small boys still happen anywhere in the world today? Probably! This is a nightmare that has yet to disappear. Nowhere, however, is it legally or morally acceptable.
A long thread on the old message board (before it crashed and burned), "The Evangelical Church of the Lambs of Christ," asked whether the castration of a 10 or 12 year-old boy was EVER ethically justified in the modern world. No one argued that there was any case where it was.
We all understand the difference between fantasy and reality. Castration can be a powerful event in a well-written piece of fiction. Anne Rice's novel "Cry to Heaven" or Kingsley Amis' "The Alteration" are good examples from mainstream fiction. Here on the Archive, Charlieje's "Andy" and Paolo's "For Your Own Good" are two examples of powerful stories that center on the castration of children. They are as good (or better) than most fiction which sees print in the mainstream. But, they ARE fiction!
1) DISEASE or INJURY resulting in the loss of one or both testicles. This is fairly rare, but not unknown. My nephew lost one testicle to injury when he was young. I had to keep reminding everyone in the family that a significant design feature of humans is redundant systems. He still has one functioning testicle and the three children to prove that it works just fine. He went through early puberty and looks hyper-masculine because of the abundance of testosterone produced by the survivor. He did not need or undergo any HRT. VERY rarely a boy will loose both testicles to disease or injury. In the modern world HRT will produce all of the signs of normal puberty, except that he will remain sterile with no place to produce sperm. With implantation of prostheses, no one would ever suspect that he was a eunuch unless told. Extremely rarely, one or both testicles will atrophy and disappear spontaneously. I know of one case where a boy had very small testicles at his physical examination at age 12. At age 13 neither testicle could be found and HRT was begun to provide normal puberty. Prostheses were inserted at age 15 so that he would not feel embarrassed showering in the gym. With continued HRT, he is outwardly fully masculine, married and with an adopted child.
2) FAILURE of existing testicles to function properly. Hypogonadism has a multitude of causes, some well understood and some not yet. In most cases HRT will produce normal puberty and development (with or without growth of the testicles and with or without production of viable sperm depending on the cause). And this is the standard practice in any part of the world with modern medical care. Some of the counter-tenors (adult male sopranos) singing today are said to have untreated hypogonadism, though there are unsubstantiated rumors that some of them have actually been physically castrated before puberty. The most persistent rumors swirled about the late Brazilian countertenor Paolo Abel do Nascimento and there are continuing rumors about the Ukrainian countertenor Oleg Riabets. Both are claimed to have untreated hypogonadism. However....... [there are several notes related to castrati and countertenors on the non-fiction board]
3) PHYSICAL CASTRATION for no medical necessity. There is no place in the modern world where this is legally sanctioned! It has happened more recently than Paolo's post would have us believe, however. Slavery was not legally abolished in Saudi Arabia until 1962 and continued to exist in parts of the country well beyond that date. There is clear documentation of slave boys being castrated by slave dealers and in Saudi hospitals as late as the mid-1950s. (See the publications of Anti-Slavery International or Sean O'Callaghan's book "The Slave Trade Today" for details) I had a Saudi friend in graduate school who claimed that he knew a slave boy who had been castrated in the mid-1960s in southwestern Saudi Arabia. I have no reason to doubt his report. In the mid-1970s, Anti-Slavery International reported on the castration of small boys in Afghanistan to serve as sex toys. In the 1980s, Louis Dupree wrote in one of his books about Afghanistan that he was surprised to discover that one of the dancing boys (popular teahouse entertainers) he interviewed had NOT been castrated. In the 1990s Anti-Slavery International reported on the castration of two southern Sudanese (Black) boys of 10 and 12 in the Sudan to make them better domestic servants in the Arab north of the country. There are current rumors that some rural Indian families have dedicated a young son to the goddess Bahucharamata and had him castrated to join the hijira. I have not been able to track down any clear evidence of the truth of these rumors. The youngest Indian case I have found proof of is the castration of a 15 year-old near Baroda in 1982. Clearly post-puberty, though certainly not yet an adult. [a full report is on the non-fiction board] Does the castration of small boys still happen anywhere in the world today? Probably! This is a nightmare that has yet to disappear. Nowhere, however, is it legally or morally acceptable.
A long thread on the old message board (before it crashed and burned), "The Evangelical Church of the Lambs of Christ," asked whether the castration of a 10 or 12 year-old boy was EVER ethically justified in the modern world. No one argued that there was any case where it was.
We all understand the difference between fantasy and reality. Castration can be a powerful event in a well-written piece of fiction. Anne Rice's novel "Cry to Heaven" or Kingsley Amis' "The Alteration" are good examples from mainstream fiction. Here on the Archive, Charlieje's "Andy" and Paolo's "For Your Own Good" are two examples of powerful stories that center on the castration of children. They are as good (or better) than most fiction which sees print in the mainstream. But, they ARE fiction!
Re: little boy castration
Andrew (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:56 pm I suggest you leave the Eunuch Archives, go over to GOOGLE, and type in "Italian Opera castrati" and follow the links.
There are plenty of castrati stories and stories involving boys posted on the Archive. It just takes a while to find them, especially the older ones. While I hold fast to the opinion that reading/writing is a healthy fantasy outlet, they are just that - FANTASY.
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
>
> with modern medical care.
For what reason do they perform HRT on boys with nonfunctioning testicles, anyway? As a male who has gone through puberty, I can attest to its various disadvantages (acne, wasting a lot of time looking at porn to satisfy my sex drive, growth of beard and body hair).
Do they just do it so that the boy will look "normal", or are there also medical reasons?
JesusA wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:33 am FAILURE of existing testicles to function properly.
> Hypogonadism has a multitude of causes, some well
> understood and some not yet. In most cases HRT will
> produce normal puberty and development (with or
> without growth of the testicles and with or without
> production of viable sperm depending on the cause).
> And this is the standard practice in any part of the world
> with modern medical care.
For what reason do they perform HRT on boys with nonfunctioning testicles, anyway? As a male who has gone through puberty, I can attest to its various disadvantages (acne, wasting a lot of time looking at porn to satisfy my sex drive, growth of beard and body hair).
Do they just do it so that the boy will look "normal", or are there also medical reasons?
Re: little boy castration
I think that the issue of HRT is mainly due to convention. After all, by the freshman or sophomore years in school, people are going to start noticing that little Billy's voice hasn't changed and that he isn't shaving yet or that he still looks like he's 10 and not 15 or 16.
I think it would be very humiliating for a boy to be hypogonadic, or even castrated, and have to shower or take physical education classes with his peers who would be far more developed than he is. He would, no doubt, be an object of ridicule and be miserable.
Personally, I recall being the most under-developed boy in the showers, being made fun of, not shaving until I was 17, little to no muscle mass, and I never had much HRT ... although I am 99% sure I had SOME during my teen years. No one needs THAT many tetanus boosters when you're not cut open!
One advantage is that I have arms that can reach damn nigh anything, though.
That, and the medical community seems to have this issue with "manhood." Preserve it at all costs. Doctors are even loathe to admit that things can go wrong "down there" at any age. HRT would restore and insure little Billy's maleness, thus keeping him in the "norm". Therefore, little Billy now gets HRT and probably prostheses as well, whether he wants them or not.
Of course, this now brings us back to the issue of
After all, he's a boy ... he should look and act like one, right?! (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
I think it would be very humiliating for a boy to be hypogonadic, or even castrated, and have to shower or take physical education classes with his peers who would be far more developed than he is. He would, no doubt, be an object of ridicule and be miserable.
Personally, I recall being the most under-developed boy in the showers, being made fun of, not shaving until I was 17, little to no muscle mass, and I never had much HRT ... although I am 99% sure I had SOME during my teen years. No one needs THAT many tetanus boosters when you're not cut open!
One advantage is that I have arms that can reach damn nigh anything, though.
That, and the medical community seems to have this issue with "manhood." Preserve it at all costs. Doctors are even loathe to admit that things can go wrong "down there" at any age. HRT would restore and insure little Billy's maleness, thus keeping him in the "norm". Therefore, little Billy now gets HRT and probably prostheses as well, whether he wants them or not.
Of course, this now brings us back to the issue of
" post that Jesus A. mentioned. When is the boy old enough, or should the parents wait, for him to understand whether to undergo puberty/implants or not?
After all, he's a boy ... he should look and act like one, right?! (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
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JesusA
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Re: little boy castration
happousai,
You're absolutely right about the reason for administering HRT to children who have non-functioning testicles or ovaries. There is the widespread medical belief that sex and gender properly comes in only two flavors: heterosexual male and heterosexual female. Anything that doesn't fit at one end of the spectrum or the other is, by definition, pathological and needs to be "cured." Realizing that there are valid alternative sexes and genders is still not a part of most persons' worldview. Deciding what is in the best interests of a child of ambiguous sex or gender will, however, continue to be done by adults - parents and medical personnel primarily, though the legal profession would like a hand in it too. Hopefully, they will be better informed than has been true in the past and will make more carefully considered decisions.
On the issue of slavery and involuntary servitude around the world that I mentioned in my last post, there are two recent sites of interest. The U.S. State Department has just issued its "2002 Trafficking in Persons Report." It is on their website at
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2002/
They estimate that a minimum of 700,000 persons are trafficed across international borders every year. Mostly women and children for sexual exploitation. Download the pdf version, as it is 118 pages of text for the full report.
The Time Magazine site has a series of articles on child slavery around the world that can be found at
http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/ ... cover.html
You're absolutely right about the reason for administering HRT to children who have non-functioning testicles or ovaries. There is the widespread medical belief that sex and gender properly comes in only two flavors: heterosexual male and heterosexual female. Anything that doesn't fit at one end of the spectrum or the other is, by definition, pathological and needs to be "cured." Realizing that there are valid alternative sexes and genders is still not a part of most persons' worldview. Deciding what is in the best interests of a child of ambiguous sex or gender will, however, continue to be done by adults - parents and medical personnel primarily, though the legal profession would like a hand in it too. Hopefully, they will be better informed than has been true in the past and will make more carefully considered decisions.
On the issue of slavery and involuntary servitude around the world that I mentioned in my last post, there are two recent sites of interest. The U.S. State Department has just issued its "2002 Trafficking in Persons Report." It is on their website at
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2002/
They estimate that a minimum of 700,000 persons are trafficed across international borders every year. Mostly women and children for sexual exploitation. Download the pdf version, as it is 118 pages of text for the full report.
The Time Magazine site has a series of articles on child slavery around the world that can be found at
http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/ ... cover.html
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A-1 (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
...hormonal abnormalities today in young boys are treated with male hormone. It is the purpose of such treatments to make them like everyone else. This is not good or bad. It is just the way that the world is now.
So, this being the case, it is impossible to have a Castrati singer today. Not even a natural one. Clearly, in any sense of morality the end could never, ever, justify the means.
As has been pointed out very eloquently in other posts by EA members by the time a boy is old enough to decide that he wanted to be castrated or NOT given HRT if he had a congenital abnormality he has had enough change effected upon his body to make it impossible to undo.
This means that the operas that were written especially for the Castrati singer may never again be heard by human ears. It is a foregone conclusion that lamenting this fact is a bit like mouring the death of the dinosaurs. They were creatures of their time. They will NEVER come again.
A Castrati was a singer from a time that we will most probably never see again...unless that Gonex breakout that we have cautioned about here on this board actually happens.
A-1
So, this being the case, it is impossible to have a Castrati singer today. Not even a natural one. Clearly, in any sense of morality the end could never, ever, justify the means.
As has been pointed out very eloquently in other posts by EA members by the time a boy is old enough to decide that he wanted to be castrated or NOT given HRT if he had a congenital abnormality he has had enough change effected upon his body to make it impossible to undo.
This means that the operas that were written especially for the Castrati singer may never again be heard by human ears. It is a foregone conclusion that lamenting this fact is a bit like mouring the death of the dinosaurs. They were creatures of their time. They will NEVER come again.
A Castrati was a singer from a time that we will most probably never see again...unless that Gonex breakout that we have cautioned about here on this board actually happens.
A-1-
Erik (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
Andrew (imported) wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2002 12:56 pm If you really need this kind of masturbation material, I suggest you leave the Eunuch Archives, go over to GOOGLE, and type in "Italian Opera castrati" and follow the links.
I am sorry but as an author of many stories for this site I cannot keep my mouth shut on this one. One of the resons EA is here is for stories. Stories are not real, but they do have a real purpose. They let us non-eunuchs and wanna-bes let off built up sexual needs. It is a much better thing to read and/or write a story about having sex with a boy and then castrating him than it is to go out and do it for real.
We are here to enjoy ourselves as well as support each other. What kind of support are you giving by telling someone to leave the ONLY sight that supports them and go to some place that is just taking things from all the newsgroups, just because they wish to know more on the subject we are all into? Just because his tastes are diffrent then yours, does not mean you should slam him.
Your comment was not even directed at me and I felt hurt by your words. I sure hope that deboys is not as hurt as I was and leaves us.
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
>
I read "Andy" today; I found it to be very interesting. The character "Charlie" in that story is very lovable. I feel kind of disappointed that he elected to go with HRT in the end, though.
JesusA wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:33 am Here on the Archive, Charlieje's "Andy" and Paolo's "For
> Your Own Good" are two examples of powerful stories
> that center on the castration of children.
I read "Andy" today; I found it to be very interesting. The character "Charlie" in that story is very lovable. I feel kind of disappointed that he elected to go with HRT in the end, though.
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
One problem that I have with castratos (only referring to the singers in Italy from centuries ago), is how they were apparently treated as objects, only worth the music they could produce.
The kind of home environment that Charlie from the story "Andy" had seems like it would be perfect for a eunuch boy to thrive in, though. His parents cared very much for him, and just wanted the best for him and would be happy if he was happy. Whenever doctors were involved, they made sure that he was informed exactly what was going on, and got to make decisions about what would happen to his own body.
It seems that the worst social embarassments that a eunuch boy would suffer would happen in high school. But, parents who take a proactive stance in the boy's life may well have him home-schooled, so that there would be no problem. (I myself don't even know what high school shower rooms are like, because I never went to a high school.)
BTW, going off on a tangent, is it possible for a pre-pubescent boy to get testicular cancer? This is one case where the medical establishment in civilized countries would not only castrate the boy, but they would also not give HRT either!
A-10: You say that castratos will "NEVER come again". Wouldn't it be plausible that there exists a few out there, out of all the billions of people in the world? It seems tha
The kind of home environment that Charlie from the story "Andy" had seems like it would be perfect for a eunuch boy to thrive in, though. His parents cared very much for him, and just wanted the best for him and would be happy if he was happy. Whenever doctors were involved, they made sure that he was informed exactly what was going on, and got to make decisions about what would happen to his own body.
It seems that the worst social embarassments that a eunuch boy would suffer would happen in high school. But, parents who take a proactive stance in the boy's life may well have him home-schooled, so that there would be no problem. (I myself don't even know what high school shower rooms are like, because I never went to a high school.)
BTW, going off on a tangent, is it possible for a pre-pubescent boy to get testicular cancer? This is one case where the medical establishment in civilized countries would not only castrate the boy, but they would also not give HRT either!
A-10: You say that castratos will "NEVER come again". Wouldn't it be plausible that there exists a few out there, out of all the billions of people in the world? It seems tha
/or the Ukrainian countertenor Oleg Riabets (mentioned above) could have had untreated hypogonadism, for example.JesusA wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:33 am t the late Brazilian countertenor Paolo Abel do Nascimento and
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Mac (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
I was also picked on for not being as masculine as some of the boys. My parents would never have allowed me to exhibit any feminine like traits. Why does society insist that boys should be more rough and tough than girls?Paolo wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:25 am Personally, I recall being the most under-developed boy in the showers, being made fun of ... That, and the medical community seems to have this issue with "manhood." Preserve it at all costs. Doctors are even loathe to admit that things can go wrong "down there" at any age. ... Therefore, little Billy now gets HRT and probably prostheses as well, whether he wants them or not. After all, he's a boy ... he should look and act like one, right?! (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
We would have less violance and crime in the world if boys were raised to be more gentle and caring "Feminine" Men and women would then view each other more as equal and there would be less sexual tension and fewer sex crimes.
The human race is the only species where the male is not the colorful and flamboyant one. Even more so for the Western World. What is wrong with boys and men wearing colorgul clothing, bold prints, delicate and lacy items; even skirts and dresses? Why should women and girls have all the freedom to dress any way they desire while men and boys are restricted to certain styles, colors and patterns?
Women sports reporters have even gained the right to enter men's locker rooms for interviews after sports events. However, men reporters are still banned from women's locker rooms.
I could rant all day about the inequities between the female and male in society, but I will leave some for future posts.
:realpisse
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
deboys (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:20 pm Say me ,please, about of advantage and disadvantage
prepubertate boy's castration.
What is best age for this operation?
Sorry my poor english.
In an attempt to bring some discussion into this thread that actually answers the poster's original question...
I just remembered a website I read once about castrating cattle. They advise to wait until the cattle is 1 (or was it 2?) years old before castrating it. This way, its testicles will produce testosterone in its younger years, which helps it grow better than it would have if it was castrated at birth.
I'm guessing the optimum time for castration may be just before puberty starts. But if you actually do this to a boy (I'm guessing he would be 10 years old at the time), please:
- Provide him an exceptional education. He can be at least a few grade levels higher than normal by that age if you home-school him, use tutors, etc. since there will not be class time wasted on making other students understand things that he already understands. Encourage him to think for himself about things. Make him as knowledgable as possible about things in general, and about the advantages and disadvantages of being castrated. Castration will affect the rest of his life, and since prepubescent castration is not possible when he's 18, you'll have to help him to become mature when he's 10 so that he knows what he's getting into. If, after weighing the advantages and disadvantages, he decides not to be castrated, then respect that decision.
- Be actively involved in his life. Always have at least one parent present to do things with him. Don't just send him off to daycare and expect him to amuse himself. Know your son well.
- If you do get him castrated, do so in a safe manner. And don't get yourself arrested; if you've been providing him a great education and spending a lot of quality time with him as suggested above, the best place for him to live would be in your care, not in some understaffed group home for children. Our society's laws are not always understanding about such "deviant" behaviors.
- Don't send him to a normal public high school after he's been castrated; he'll just be ridiculed and be miserable for looking different. Use some sort of alternative education method, such as home schooling, or a special school for gifted kids (and he will be gifted if you've been accelerating his education as before).
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JesusA
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Re: little boy castration
happousai,
I have a very hard time believing your recent post. What deboys proposed is illegal in every jurisdiction in the known world. We've had long discussions and debates about it on the Archive and essentially EVERY poster agreed that the castration of a boy before the age of adulthood (when he can make his own informed decision) is unethical and just plain WRONG! Several regular members of the Archive have argued that the minimum age ought to be as high as 26, not the legal 18 in most western jurisdictions. This is a permanent and IRREVERSIBLE action with serious consequences.
From your other posts, I know that you normally take a much more Libertarian and responsible stance and this post is completely inconsistent with the philosophy you've expressed elsewhere.
I think most of us who have posted on this thread have tried to take the original post seriously, but also to point out (gently) how wrong-headed it is.
Stop. Think about what you wrote. I hope that you'll want to take a very different position once you do. I find the thought that someone might actually castrate a child for other than absolutely necessary medical reason to be frightening.
Jesus
I have a very hard time believing your recent post. What deboys proposed is illegal in every jurisdiction in the known world. We've had long discussions and debates about it on the Archive and essentially EVERY poster agreed that the castration of a boy before the age of adulthood (when he can make his own informed decision) is unethical and just plain WRONG! Several regular members of the Archive have argued that the minimum age ought to be as high as 26, not the legal 18 in most western jurisdictions. This is a permanent and IRREVERSIBLE action with serious consequences.
From your other posts, I know that you normally take a much more Libertarian and responsible stance and this post is completely inconsistent with the philosophy you've expressed elsewhere.
I think most of us who have posted on this thread have tried to take the original post seriously, but also to point out (gently) how wrong-headed it is.
Stop. Think about what you wrote. I hope that you'll want to take a very different position once you do. I find the thought that someone might actually castrate a child for other than absolutely necessary medical reason to be frightening.
Jesus
Re: little boy castration
I have to agree with Jesus on this one.
While Happ's post does concur with the topic of the thread, it's just not feasable to even think that this is happening.
However, I do find the list of concerns over a castrated boy a bit disconcerting, as if someone actually believes that is happening. While these ARE valid issues for raising a boy - I know, I'm involved with 5 of them - thinking in this tone about the castration of minors is something that belongs in fantasy or a fictional story. The world we live in today isn't 16-17th century Italy, after all.
Even if one does find oneself with a little eunuch - be it via injury or disease - we're still back at the HRT/implants issue.
We don't live in a world where we can just have a boy castrated as nonchalantly as removing his tonsils/adenoids or appendix. Even those are not done as 'maintenance' surgeries. Circumcision is about the only such operation, routine, and even that is falling by the wayside.
While Happ's post does concur with the topic of the thread, it's just not feasable to even think that this is happening.
However, I do find the list of concerns over a castrated boy a bit disconcerting, as if someone actually believes that is happening. While these ARE valid issues for raising a boy - I know, I'm involved with 5 of them - thinking in this tone about the castration of minors is something that belongs in fantasy or a fictional story. The world we live in today isn't 16-17th century Italy, after all.
Even if one does find oneself with a little eunuch - be it via injury or disease - we're still back at the HRT/implants issue.
We don't live in a world where we can just have a boy castrated as nonchalantly as removing his tonsils/adenoids or appendix. Even those are not done as 'maintenance' surgeries. Circumcision is about the only such operation, routine, and even that is falling by the wayside.
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happousai (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
> [Castration]
Mmm... puberty is also permanent and irreversible, and has serious consequences.
Once a boy has gone through puberty, he will never be the same again. His body will have developed male sexual characteristics. His voice will be forever changed. There will be hair all over his body - removing just facial hair would typically cost over $10,000 worth of electrolysis and take over a year.
This is not like, say, circumcision, where if the boy decides he wants it when he's turned 18, it can be done and achieves the same end result as if it were done when he was a child. In the case of castration however, both choices (to castrate the boy before puberty, or to not castrate him) are mutually exclusive.
I'm 20 years old. I can't say that I enjoyed my puberty. I resent having to shave all the time. I'm annoyed at how sometimes my pubic hair gets tangled with my foreskin. The acne was annoying. I have also had no real outlet for the typical strong male adolescent sex drive that I have (other than wasting countless hours surfing porn sites). I probably wouldn't have minded had I lost my testicles. (It could have happened too; I used to put rubber bands around my testicles at the age of 10. I always took them off after a few hours due to intense pain, though.)
I think that the main reason castrating boys is so taboo is that it would be unthinkable for mainstream society. If it could be put off until after 18, then of course the decision should be left until then. But since not castrating the boy before puberty is also an irreversible choice, perhaps the option of castration could be offered to the boy at age 10, with his full informed and educated consent.
Also, there is one option I brought up earlier that seems to be unexplored: Androcur. In the case of boys diagnosed with gender dysphoria (i.e. they're mentally female and think they want to become physically female as well), physicians sometimes prescribe testosterone-blocking medications to delay the development of secondary sexual characteristics for a few years while the child discovers his/her own sexual identity. If he decides that he is a boy, the medications can be stopped and puberty proceeds normally (albeit delayed). If she decides that she is a girl, then castration, SRS and female hormone therapy can be started, without the body having been masculinized by testosterone. Why can't Androcur be used here, too?
JesusA wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2002 12:18 pm is a permanent and IRREVERSIBLE action with serious consequences.
Mmm... puberty is also permanent and irreversible, and has serious consequences.
Once a boy has gone through puberty, he will never be the same again. His body will have developed male sexual characteristics. His voice will be forever changed. There will be hair all over his body - removing just facial hair would typically cost over $10,000 worth of electrolysis and take over a year.
This is not like, say, circumcision, where if the boy decides he wants it when he's turned 18, it can be done and achieves the same end result as if it were done when he was a child. In the case of castration however, both choices (to castrate the boy before puberty, or to not castrate him) are mutually exclusive.
I'm 20 years old. I can't say that I enjoyed my puberty. I resent having to shave all the time. I'm annoyed at how sometimes my pubic hair gets tangled with my foreskin. The acne was annoying. I have also had no real outlet for the typical strong male adolescent sex drive that I have (other than wasting countless hours surfing porn sites). I probably wouldn't have minded had I lost my testicles. (It could have happened too; I used to put rubber bands around my testicles at the age of 10. I always took them off after a few hours due to intense pain, though.)
I think that the main reason castrating boys is so taboo is that it would be unthinkable for mainstream society. If it could be put off until after 18, then of course the decision should be left until then. But since not castrating the boy before puberty is also an irreversible choice, perhaps the option of castration could be offered to the boy at age 10, with his full informed and educated consent.
Also, there is one option I brought up earlier that seems to be unexplored: Androcur. In the case of boys diagnosed with gender dysphoria (i.e. they're mentally female and think they want to become physically female as well), physicians sometimes prescribe testosterone-blocking medications to delay the development of secondary sexual characteristics for a few years while the child discovers his/her own sexual identity. If he decides that he is a boy, the medications can be stopped and puberty proceeds normally (albeit delayed). If she decides that she is a girl, then castration, SRS and female hormone therapy can be started, without the body having been masculinized by testosterone. Why can't Androcur be used here, too?
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A-1 (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
You cannot go about making a decision like this for little boys.
There is no way to predict that they will feel like YOU do and regret being male or at least a functioning male. There is just no way to predict Gayness, Transexualism or any other thing that would make somebody desire castration later in life.
Regardless of how you feel personally, you cannot have a thing such as this done to a child. Even if the child tells you that they desire it.
There is no difference in principle between what you are proposing and surgically altering the genitalia of intersexed people. It is just plain WRONG to allow this to be done, let alone plan it and suggest to a child that it is RIGHT for them.
I hope that you can see what we are trying to tell you here. The part about the illegalness of the proposed action is secondary to the immorality of interceeding in another's life in this manner.
...And for the record circumcision is not right, either. The same principle applies, but not to the same extent.
A-1
There is no way to predict that they will feel like YOU do and regret being male or at least a functioning male. There is just no way to predict Gayness, Transexualism or any other thing that would make somebody desire castration later in life.
Regardless of how you feel personally, you cannot have a thing such as this done to a child. Even if the child tells you that they desire it.
There is no difference in principle between what you are proposing and surgically altering the genitalia of intersexed people. It is just plain WRONG to allow this to be done, let alone plan it and suggest to a child that it is RIGHT for them.
I hope that you can see what we are trying to tell you here. The part about the illegalness of the proposed action is secondary to the immorality of interceeding in another's life in this manner.
...And for the record circumcision is not right, either. The same principle applies, but not to the same extent.
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A-1 (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
I do not want to play doctor here, but you cannot cause skeletal structual changes characteristic of either sex after the bone growth has occurred.
You cannot wait until age 18 to let the secondary sexual characteristics develop from the administration of sex hormones. Furthermore, Doctors make mistakes everyday. They are not God and they can be SUED for doing such things. With a child as plantiff, they would have virtually NO chance of winning such a lawsuit. In short, it ain't EVER gonna happen. ~NEVER, EVER~!
You cannot legally obtain an informed consent from a minor. What you propose would make a good fiction story on the EA, a daydream perhaps of a transexual, but it could never be reality.
What you propose involves predicting the future. Miss Cleo is off the air now and she will be lucky if she doesn't do some serious jail time.
Get the hint?
A-1
You cannot wait until age 18 to let the secondary sexual characteristics develop from the administration of sex hormones. Furthermore, Doctors make mistakes everyday. They are not God and they can be SUED for doing such things. With a child as plantiff, they would have virtually NO chance of winning such a lawsuit. In short, it ain't EVER gonna happen. ~NEVER, EVER~!
You cannot legally obtain an informed consent from a minor. What you propose would make a good fiction story on the EA, a daydream perhaps of a transexual, but it could never be reality.
What you propose involves predicting the future. Miss Cleo is off the air now and she will be lucky if she doesn't do some serious jail time.
Get the hint?
A-1 -
Close Shave (imported)
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Re: little boy castration
My sentiments, exactly! It is ok for girls to be masculine. Why can't boys be feminine? We must break down these unnatural barriers.
it's all pink inside (sitting or standing up)
it's all pink inside (sitting or standing up)
Re: little boy castration
happousai (imported) wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:40 pm I think that the main reason castrating boys is so taboo is that it would be unthinkable for mainstream society. If it could be put off until after 18, then of course the decision should be left until then. But since not castrating the boy before puberty is also an irreversible choice, perhaps the option of castration could be offered to the boy at age 10, with his full informed and educated consent.
As A-1 mentions, there is no informed consent for a minor. Even at age 16 or 17, with a car and a valid drivers' license and a job, if a teen goes to the ER, the parents have to consent.
At age 10, I was taken to the ER by a cop when I was hit by a car. I was bleeding all over, forehead busted open, possible broken arm ... and they left me on the table while they tried to locate a parent. At that time, the cop pulled out his badge, waved it in the Doc's face, and ordered him to start work on me since the better part of my blood supply was in his truck. (Off duty at the time.)
Just two nights ago, we took C. to the ER with a broken arm. It's unbelievable, all the crap you have to go through with a screaming kid in the ER just to get them to look at him! Fortunately, they usually fall for the "mom's on the cell phone trick."
Again, there is no informed consent for a minor.
For a bit of perspective, let's take my example. At the age of 11 in 1978, I had become obsessed with the idea of the Italian Castrati. Remember the "Encyclopedia Brown" stories about an over-educated sleuthing boy? That was pretty much me. I came right out with it a physical and asked the Doc about it. The result : six weeks with a child psychologist and the beating of a lifetime! It was YEARS before the family would even take me seriously on anything again, not to mention the odd looks.
Today, the boy, no matter how informed or intelligent, would probably wind up in something like the Katheryn Hamilton Center (Crazy Kate's) or Res-Care for an even longer period!
It doesn't matter how one may feel about it, or in the rare case of an actually informed and understanding boy, it just isn't going to happen. Anymore, mentioning the fact that the boy even HAS genitals and knows what they're for is enough to land you in jail and him in some kind of 'care facility' (read : baby jail).
Look at all the hoopla that goes on over things like Don's recent fiasco with a cutter or the John W. Bobbitt case. Never mind the fact that we're talking about rational adult males in search of castration for whatever reason!
Can you imagine the zoo that it would be in the media on the issue of minor castration?