Can anyone relate? On answering Why?

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:03 am

Last night I had a really emotional conversation with my other half of 9 years. He is being supportive of me taking the next step and going on some form of HRT. The tentative plan right now is to start at the top of the normal range for testosterone in an adult male and work our way down until I find something that actually feels right. In the midst of this conversation I was crying and I was compelled to try and answer why.

I have yet to be very successful in articulating why I don't feel that things are right and why I have this incessant drive toward castration that only grows stronger over the years. And why it seriously gets out of control when I'm hypersexual, which stems from hypomania. But amongst the tears, it struck me on how to explain it to someone that has no point of reference. It isn't obvious that anything is wrong by looking at me even naked.

I see that I have a significant incongruity between the level of masculinity that comprises my mind and cognition versus my body. In fact, I would describe my mind's level of masculinity as what most males would feel or be before the onset of puberty. It's almost as if when I went through puberty, but my mind did not react to the testosterone in a way that it should to grow fully and develop my internal sense of masculinity. My body had no problems complying with the rise in testosterone and developing into a mature form. It didn't take long before there was a lot of difference between my mind and my body.

I don't feel that my mind is hardwired as a female.. not even a little. I feel that it is mostly hardwired as a prepubescent boy in terms of masculinity. And in some ways, this incongruity gnaws at me. And for me, the smoldering problem sparks into a raging inferno during periods of hypersexuality. During these times of intense sex drive, it becomes insanely difficult to manage and it puts me at some risk of acting impulsively on castration. I can't avoid this problem and I can't hide from it. And even if I didn't experience periodic hypersexuality, the problem continues to get worse with or without it.

Now that I have the support of my therapist and a doctor willing to prescribe some form of hormone therapy to get me to the right subjective level of hormones, it has given me great pause. Given that the normal adult male range is 300 to 1200 ng/dL, what is right and how will I know when I get there? I am right in the middle of the range naturally, so I can move either way quite a bit and still be in the normal range. From others that have been castrated and gone on HRT, the response to this question seems to be.. you will just know when it is right. Maybe with my own experience in the future, I will be able to add something to the discussion and let you if I have a better answer.

I feel that this incongruity can be resolved by lowering the amount of testosterone to a more comfortable level. I have done it on my own with depo provera, but I have no idea just how far I went or if it was execssive.

I have some amount of hope that taking more testosterone will push my mind to feel less in conflict. But it may actually make the conflict much much worse too. I suppose there is only way to really find out.

What are your thoughts? Sometimes on the question of why, I can find little words other than saying.. things just don't feel right. But that is really hard for other people that don't have this problem to relate to.

raymar2020 (imported) · Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:07 am

Having read your post, it seems to me that you have several issues to address. Firstly, how much of your desire for castration is related to some form of body dysmorphia? If you feel mentally ( by your own words) more like a prepubescent boy, then is your castration desire based on your dislike of your general appearance, and if so, will it really cure the way you feel?

Secondly, being right smack in the middle of the adult range for testosterone is pretty average, so if you have extreme swings in your sexuality, it may be related to brain chemistry not testosterone. Raising the level, would only seem to be putting you in a position that the potential for some form of self harm is more likely.

Conversely, lowering the level, would it seems slow your sexual desires slowy til you reached castrate levels, and then by the voices of experience on this site, you would have little or no interest in being sexual.

Searching your own soul to try to find the real root reasons for wanting to be castrated is not an easy thing, and for virtually every individual the real answer is different. Trying to put a label on it so it "fits into a category" is not the best way.

As a teen , did you think of being without your testicles, even as they were developing ? Is your desire rooted in the need to be subservient to another male? When you say you have periods of hypersexuality, does that mean that you become temporarily obsessed with the sexual act or with the parts you have ?

I can relate to you some of my own feelings, firstly on HRT. I have never produced enough testosterone, due to my personal situation. I HAD to learn to function on a very low level as a teen. Over the years, since it worked OK, I never made any attempt to change that. When I reached the point that my atrophied testicles were removed, my GP suggested that I should at least "try" raising the level to a more "normal" level. I agreed , and began daily dosing with 5 mg of androgel. OMG, I am a different person. My energy levels at least tripled, and I found myself for a short time having those embarrassing spontaneous erections that teenagers suffer from. That I quickly adjusted to , and all the other benefits of the higher level I would not give up for a minute.

Now, I never really had testicles like most. They did not descend until I was 16 , and then were the size of raisins. They were poked , prodded and skewered on syringes in a vain attempt to turn them into "real" testicles. This led to years of unrelenting pain. They also retreated back into the inguinal canals, where they stayed until they were removed in 2008. All these factors made me quite comfortable with the way I looked, and in truth the worst time of my life was the brief period when they were visible. I hated having them!!

I have a personal belief that some among us, myself included were not suppoed to be equipped with testicles. They were a mistake of nature. My mind was hard wired to be a eunuch, and my body tried to match that , but the medical community and my parents interfered with the natural selection. Over the years I have known several guys who were born without testicles. They all thought that the idea of having them was rather disgusting. it may be that the root of your issues is similar.

Search deeply into your deepest darkest places, and dredge out the right answer. It certainly may be positive to try different variations on the testosterone level, but you must really delve into your mind to find what is the right answer for you.

Raymar

kennath7 (imported) · Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:03 am

It hard to describe feelings to another person, I was there where you are at now but I always ended up in the ER and with large hospital bills

I could go for weeks with out acting on the desire to eliminate my balls

but it always kept building inside, kind of like how you describe

I like how raymar described how he felt or views the desire that one would have to want to be castrated

I always felt like I was not meant to have balls that it was an accident that they where there , or in other lives I was some being that was not male nor female

You are not a lone in how you feel

There are lots more men like your self who have had the feelings that your are going through be safe don't try cutting them off your self

Do lots of research by reading our experiences that we put here on the ea

Try chem. Castration first

For my self I love being an eunuch and I have no regrets I would do it all over again except many years earlier

Good luck on your journey

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:09 am

Hi raymar2020.

No, my desire for castration does not have to do with body dysmorphia/BIID. Both my therapist and I agree on that issue. I have talked to others online over a number of years about this, and they also concur with that assessment. It is not an issue about appearance. It is an issue about control over my sex drive and masculinity, which is a completely different reasoning all together. I'd say in general I'm okay with my appearance. It might seem confusing that I would suggest that there is a disconnect between some measure of external and internal masculinity, but maybe the problem with this suggestion is the term masculinity itself. What exactly does it mean to feel masculine internally? At one end of the extreme, what exactly makes the alpha male mind tick? Like gender, masculinity might hold a variety of meanings to other people.

What the core issue comes down to for me is that things just don't *feel* right. I know that's really vague, subjective, and not very helpful. It is hard for me to clearly illuminate this position to other people. I have been driven toward castration since the beginning of puberty and it hasn't ever stopped. This isn't about being submissive to another male. I'm not even for sure this is really about whether I have nuts or not. I don't identify them as a part of my identify one way or the other, but I also don't feel that they don't belong there. I'm fairly neutral on whether they are physically there or not. I have always seen castration over the years as a means to an end. I believe that the situation at certain times in life somewhat drove my understanding of my desire for castration. But they all came down to control over my sex drive and masculinity.

I see the process of searching through the normal range of testosterone as a means to come to terms and peace with myself. I'm 95% confident that I will find what I'm looking for. Having taken depo provera in the past, it has shown me just how significant hormones affect my sex drive and sense of masculinity. When I find the right amount of testosterone, I might not be able to easily tell you why it is just right, but maybe it doesn't ultimately need a reason.

I have searched my soul a 1000 times over and then some about this issue. I have tried just about every way of looking at it and dealing with it on my own. In the last 6 months I have decided to work with a therapist on the issue and get an unbiased professional opinion on what's going on. Maybe there was something going on that I had missed or failed to understand. I have spent a lot of time with him to work together and really tease out rather there is some other issue at stake. One by one we eliminated non-obvious drivers for this desire of castration. It came down to a form of identity disorder that isn't really recognized in the standard DSM-IV. And obviously there is no by-the-book way of dealing with this issue.

You are right. There are multiple issues going on in my life. Hypersexuality is caused by hypomania which is just par for the course for someone that has bipolar. But not everyone with bipolar experiences hypersexuality. Hypersexuality for me is an insane level of sex drive that is simply out of control and it absolutely takes over my life. Once in a while it gets so bad that I am unable to really work and it can last a few days. No amount of climaxing offers any relief. I have had hard last for so long that my penis physically hurts like hell. I find that anything over 3 hours starts to really hurt. Hypersexuality is just a force that is truly hard to understand unless you have had first hand experience with bipolar and hypersexuality.

Hypersexuality won't necessarily ever go away, at least with normal to higher levels of testosterone. Hypersexuality in and of itself is a bad thing, but there are ways of dealing with it without changing my level of hormones. And the hypersexuality is only relatively dangerous because I have this underlying issue with castration. I strongly feel that finding the right level of testosterone will allow me to feel normal and not feel compelled to castrate myself.

Thank you for some insight into your experience with HRT and being an eunuch. It would be hard for me to imagine going from very low levels of testosterone and then finally experiencing normal levels of testosterone as an adult. Although given my situation, maybe I would have been better off? It's hard to know for sure when you start pulling on the thread that unravels the whole tapestry of life.

raymar2020 (imported) · Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:22 am

Guy26,

I totally sympathize with you, and while I have never grapplec with any of the issues you speak of , can relate. life is a challenge for many every day. For some, just the act of getting thru a day is a challenge, add to that maix homosexuality, bilpolar, and thoughts or ideas of castration, and you start to reach the meltdown point.

Stick with your therapist if you have a good working relationship, and by all means experiment with your hormone levels. You mentioned a partner of nine years, well, that is in itself an accomplishment, and even moreso with the underlying issues you are battling. The right answer for you will come out thru extensive exploration, and then whatever decision you make will be the RIGHT one for you.

I am available , if you ever feel the need to have a sympathetic ear.

Raymar

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:24 am

Hi Kennath,

I totally agree that anyone seriously considering castration (even if they plan on taking HRT afterward) should try chemical castration for a period of time. From what I've heard, things may not be the same after castration even with HRT.

I have tried depo provera a couple of times. The last time was over a period of 4 months plus the time for it to wear off. I've heard 6 months to a year is far more ideal because the long term effects take a while to show up. At this point I have no real desire to go through with castration anymore. I strongly feel that using HRT to get to the right level of testosterone really avoids the need and desire to go through with castration. I know that isn't going to work for those that have body disphoria/BIID. But it seems quite reasonable for my situation.

I'm really glad that you got what you were looking for. It seems that many guys suffer with this problem for decades before finding some resolution.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:35 am

Raymar,

I agree that extensive exploration is in order. From what I understand, it often takes between 6 months and a year for those that have been castrated to find just the right amount of HRT. I've also heard that it takes longer if they didn't measure their amount of testosterone before getting castrated because there is no normal base line for comparison or to use as a starting point.

I plan on being very patient and taking it slowly. I think it is maybe a little more important to avoid making too many changes constantly because of some potential to interact with my mood. But eventually I'm sure I will arrive where I need to be despite false starts.

I appreciate your offer. I'm sure I will need someone to talk to as I go through this process. I'll try to keep everyone posted. I know so many more people read posts and lurk in the shadows as opposed to participate in the active discussions. I was that way for years. My lurking first start in 1996 back on usenet before the eunuch archive and when I was in high school.

So many people come here with different reasons for castration. I think it adds a lot to the community when we come together and share our story. You never know who you might help by talking about your situation. That's why I'm sharing my story with everyone.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:37 am

I feel even more confused today after reading about the concept of masculinity in a formal context. It seems that it should be obvious what it means and yet it seems to be ephemeral and difficult to pin down. Some notions of masculinity blend right into gender.

Among other things, masculinity can include strength, aggression, body hair, odor, the likelihood to fight in a flight or fight response, risk-taking, competitiveness, and blunted emotional response.

What do I feel I don't have? I have virtually no aggression. In fact it is nearly impossible for me to get angry. I have a tendency to diffuse a situation before it could begin to get there. I would never physically fight unless it was impossible to not do so. I have a significant aversion to risk-taking behavior. I'm not competitive at all and would actively seek an alternative course of action. And I'd say that while I'm not super emotional, I'm more emotional than nearly any guy I know. I naturally have a low amount of body hair. There are times I have a tendency remove it nearly completely.

What do I have? I feel that I have an okay muscle physique. I lift weights and run frequently and it does show to some extent. I have been doing so for a little over a decade now. I feel in shape and generally like the way I look.

And what about gender? Gender has a lot to do with social constructs and it seems even less clear on that front on how I don't fit in. And however I might not fit in, I don't feel pressure to do so. I have always felt at ease with just being myself. For some reason I have always commanded the respect of others and have not been pressured to conform to some ideal.

When I came out to a women friend recently about this problem, she wasn't even phased. She described me as being "soft" and could identify with the problem I described. As far as the idea of being soft... I am gentle, nonthreatening even to women, and I push for intelligence, compassion, and friendliness. Not that that is a bad thing or anything. LoL

What is the incongruence between? It could be that my mind feels masculine and my body doesn't match up? But that conclusion seems to go against my general intuition. Or it could be that my body is masculine and my mind isn't? But that seems to go against the grain of things too. I would say that my features are young, boyish looking, and far from the ideal picture of strong masculinity. Or is it that both my mind and body are not so masculine? That seems most plausible. But that isn't an incongruity. So where is the problem?

i have no doubt that there is a problem, but i want other people to understand it too. I feel frustrated that the more detailed I try to get about the issue, the harder it seems to pin it down. It's like trying to look into a black hole and see past the event horizon. if i can go on some form of hrt and feel right, i'm completely ecstatic about that. But It would be nice for others to fully understand, even if it isn't required.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:29 am

Things seem to be getting off to a good start. The last time that I met with my therapist, he was wanting me to initiate a conversation with my family doctor about prescribing HRT. I've already met with my family doctor/general practitioner last Friday. He has agreed to work with me and my therapist on my issue and prescribe hormones to make things right. I met again with my therapist today to let him know how it went.

Now they just need to talk to each other. I've already signed the papers allowing them to do so. My therapist is going to give him a call this week. He'll either get back to me after that conversation or next week during my appointment with him. I'm not 100% sure what the next steps are. I don't know if my family doctor needs to run some blood tests or not. I've already had my testosterone levels checked before, so who knows. I guess I'll just wait and see. My ball park guess is that I'll start sometime in the next one to three weeks.

As I mentioned to friends on Facebook... Anticipation can be a lot of fun, but it sucks when you have waited half your life to start down a new path. I'm patient, so I'll deal with it. It isn't that big of a deal in the long run on when I start. And I've already waited this long, so what's a little longer.

I thought it was also a positive sign that he read through all of the academic papers on M2E (male to eunuch) and BIID (in terms of castration) that I had given to him yesterday. Apparently he was motivated to read them. I was thinking it might take him a few days to get through them in his spare time at the office. It isn't a huge amount to read through, but you can't read through it in 5 minutes either. After he was finished, he told me he felt even more strongly that recommending HRT is a good place to start.

At my appointment, I talked to him about my inability to clearly put my problem into concrete terms and into words that would clearly convey the problem to those that have no point of reference. I mentioned that I had done a bit of writing over the last few days and I don't feel I have made much progress. It is unlike me to be at a loss of words or to be inarticulate. The more I wrote, the further away it seemed I got from the essence of the problem.

I have no doubt about what the problem is and I feel like I understand it completely... even though I can't readily describe it. I think it may take time to have some framework to find those words.

When I mentioned all of this, he kind of laughed and said that it's okay. I don't really have to be able to explain it to anyone. That isn't really required. And I agree it isn't required. I just feel that I could contribute back to the community in some way if I could clearly make that articulation.

I also mentioned that I thought I would't have too many problems in general changing my level of hormones. There is one exception though. And that is a very slow rise in testosterone over more than a few weeks. I have encountered that in the past when the depo provera wears off and slowly my natural testosterone level returns to normal. Somehow that process I find entirely painful. When asked to describe what I meant by painful, I had no words to describe it. I mean none. It just is. It isn't a physical pain. It isn't anything it causes me to do. And it doesn't cause a specific painful emotion. There is just some low level thing that I find painful from the essence of my being. LoL.

I don't really have a problem going down on testosterone, but I want to be confident about that before doing so. Thus I think starting at the very high end of the spectrum and working down would be the most appropriate thing to minimize mood interactions with my bipolar. But I'm totally willing to work with my family doctor and go with his recommendation.

I'll try to keep everyone posted on my adventure in life.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:29 am

I feel tired today from not quite enough sleep and intellectually drained. All this afternoon I have been going through and reading medical abstracts and journals as it relates to GID (gender identity disorder) and more specifically GID NOS (gender identity disorder not otherwise specified). I haven't been happy with the amount of information that I have found on GID NOS thus far. I feel a little privileged that I have access to medical journals in general--students, faculty, and staff get this privilege typically at a university. But it doesn't help if that material doesn't exist or you are looking in the wrong places.

I have also been thinking about how I will subjectively evaluate changing my level of testosterone to some particular level. I think there are three variables that will need to be isolated. Most people will only be dealing with two of the three. 1) Psychosomatic 2) Real 3) Changes in mood due to bipolar but induced by hormone changes.

I have taken depo provera twice in life. The first time was just a single injection of 150mg of medroxyprogesterone acetate. The second time was 300mg to start with. Then 3 more shots spaced a month apart from each other. Retrospectively, I likely had more psychosomatic responses the first time that I took depo provera versus the second time around. I feel that having returned to base line and trying it again, I was able to more accurately gauge my reaction to it. I believe that my ability to differentiate between real changes versus mood related changes comes down to self awareness, but it may take extra time to be sure. For instance, one's general level of energy is connected to the level of testosterone present. If I'm taking more testosterone relative to my normal level of testosterone AND I see an increase in energy, it may take time to understand whether the increase in energy is a real physical effect or due to hypomania.

I have been getting excited and cautiously optimistic about going on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) and trying out the high end of the normal adult male range for testosterone. If there is any chance that I can really truly feel like a guy inside, I will be wholesale ecstatic should that happen. Several people have expressed doubt that I will feel that way going up on testosterone and it may exacerbate whatever problem or incongruity that I am currently experiencing. I am willing to take that risk though. Also, I have for some reason been excited by the idea that I could look a lot more masculine over time. This reaction is surprising even to myself and it seems paradoxical to the long term desire for castration. I made some comment of this form to my therapist at my last appointment and he didn't find it difficult to accept the paradoxical circumstance should it actually come to be.

And unexpectedly, my other half claimed last night that I have been acting more masculine or slightly more aggressive the last few days. I haven't the slightest clue on what to think about that or even if I agree with him. The only concrete evidence that he had was that I was driving slightly more aggressively last night. Nothing too bad. I swear. LoL. Maybe I was accelerating a little harder than normal.

The other thing of interest.. At least for now, whatever fantasy aspect of castration that I might have had appears to be gone. I've noticed this in the past when I made the active decision to go on depo provera. And the fantasy aspect of it didn't reappear for a long time afterward usually on the order of a year or so. I think that's a good thing, but I haven't heard anyone express anything similar.

Caith721 (imported) · Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:24 am

You're seeing the power of positive thoughts and actions at work. Rather than thinking too much and/or obsessing, you're being productively active in managing your own situation. That's as constructive and productive as you can possibly be, and always good for you.

I wish you great success, especially if you experience minor setbacks or inconveniences along the way. Identifying the actual source of these feelings in a logical, sensible manner, and especially recording and monitoring them, is the best thing you can do for yourself. Having doctors assist and counsel you makes it almost perfect.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:31 pm

I heard back from my family doctor and he wants me to come in next Tuesday to discuss options. With any luck I will get to start HRT sometime next week. I'm still just cautiously optimistic.

Anyway, for a different perspective I decided to share my story on a transgendered message board. The first reply that I got back was that I might consider myself genderqueer. My first thoughts were, "Eeek. What in the hell is that?" But after riding through my knee jerk reaction and looking at it a bit closer, it got me to thinking. For the uninitiated, genderqueer is basically the idea that you identify outside of the two strict sexes. Wikipedia, states that you may identify "as being both man and woman or as being neither man nor woman." In some ways it is a catch all phrase. I'm not for sure why, but it gave me a new way to look within myself. What if gender is more of a spectrum and you might even be able to pick and choose from each gender? So with a no holds bar look at myself, how do I identify myself? It probably isn't surprising to any of you, but I'd say that I partially identify as a man, but definitely not as a woman.

And this uneasy partial identification as a man creates problems. The degree of identification slightly shifts just a little one way or the other over time. But it's like my system loses its balance with just a slight change. It either throws my thinking toward being an eunuch and wanting to cut off my balls and being a lot less masculine. Or it trips me to embracing the masculinity that I have, but it leaves me feeling unhappy or uneasy with the degree that I feel that I am a man. In some ways, this is why I feel that I could probably do well by either increasing the amount of testosterone that I have or fairly significantly decreasing the amount of testosterone. It's like being in the middle is just bound to create problems over time for me. And it is one that is bound to trip me up over and over again.

If adding more testosterone can push how I feel, far enough inside, it will stabilize how I feel and I can feel complete as a man. It's possible that even if I don't whole sale feel like a guy inside and it prevents me from wanting to reject my masculinity, than it seems like a reasonable solution to me. There may not be a perfect solution to all of this and I'm okay with that.

Some of this entirely conjecture and it is going to take some experimenting around with HRT to really know if I'm just making shit up. Or if this has some basis in my own psyche.

nullorchis (imported) · Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:21 pm

Testosterone is but one hormone. Have you had a complete analysis done by an endocrinologist? The body's hormones interact with one another. An over or under production by one can cause a cascade effect throughout many hormones.

Try to not overthink. Thinking too much will only put you into a mental spiral.

Consider adding meditation to your day.

I only know that once testosterone was dramatically decreased I felt better.

I too am looking for that point in T level where I maintain good mental, emotional, and physical health, but without thoughts and obsessions on sex.

Practice deep breathing exercises. Done with meditation, this may help you get through each day, one day at a time.

I am not experienced with hypnosis, but it might be an option too.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:17 am

Hi nullochis,

I think the key with this problem IS to clearly understand it and not simply act out on the problem. Otherwise, there is a lot of possibility for doing something that is inherently wrong and having lots of regret afterward because of permanent changes. There is such a thing as being obsessive, but I'm not in that territory yet. If my critical thinking was on loop and unproductive and unyielding in new insight, then I would agree that I need to pull back. So far that doesn't seem to be the case.

In fact, I would STRONGLY encourage others struggling with these issues to seek professional help so that they may consistently evaluate what's going on over a longer period of time even through other distractions in life. For me, I have found the process to be a positive effluence on my own self understanding once I found the right person to talk to. They can help ask the right questions to frame the discussion into something that yields insight and maybe even help you work through areas that you unintentionally don't deal with. The longer you have suppressed and denied yourself from working through these kinds of deep dark issues, the more opportunity I feel there is to be had by seeking out professional help.

For the most part I am happy with the understanding that I have of myself on the issue of castration. It is clear enough that I feel comfortable with going forward with HRT. I don't feel that it is irrational nor do I feel that I am acting impulsively. There are several problems in life where I have delayed and suppressed thinking about the problem for YEARS. This is one of them. It wasn't until I was diagnosed with bipolar did this messy problem make it onto the table for dissection. And really it has been the last couple of years that I have made the most progress on dealing with it.

I feel that without a doubt, one of the keys to dealing with any mental health issue is to have self awareness. Without it, it can compromise your ability to make good decisions and prevent you from developing appropriate and necessary coping skills. In the case of castration, self awareness may be one of the most important things to ensure that one does not do something they later regret. And for me, writing has a way of clarifying my thoughts. A long time ago, I use to write solely for myself. I might write for an hour or two every couple of days during my worst struggles, but I never had any intention of sharing them with others. But if I'm going to all the trouble of writing, I might as well share it with others if it offers any possibility of helping them with their own similar problems. And that is why I have created this thread. It is just as much for my benefit as it hopefully is for others. And maybe it will help someone think more deeply about their own problems and to hopefully make the best possible decision for their own unique situation.

No, I have not seen an endocrinologist. I suppose anything is possible and that something may be out of whack. But thus far there is nothing physical to suggest that something might be wrong. I'll see what my family doctor thinks I should do when I meet with him next Tuesday. He may want to run some blood work anyway before starting me on HRT.

Meditation is not a bad suggestion. I have practiced Yoga a few times through out the last 6 years or so. It can help you relax and focus in a way that is hard to describe. My other half use to kid me that I appeared to be on Valium after a good workout. But I also feel that meditation has to fit within your lifestyle. I used to practice yoga more to keep my body loose and stretched than anything. If you weight lift a lot, your muscles definitely tighten up much faster than if you don't. The affect that yoga had on my mind and well being was just a side benefit. It wasn't a strong enough reason to keep doing it for that reason alone.

You might be glad to know that I have not struggled significantly in the last 6 months or so since I began seeing my therapist. Overall, things have been pretty good. Occasionally my mood has been a little off, but nothing too extreme or for too long. That is just something I have to learn to live with. It is a part of being bipolar. And because I feel pretty stable in general, I feel this is definitely a reasonable time to start HRT. Otherwise, it would be totally unreasonable if I was having serious mood issues.

As far as hypnosis, I'm not for sure about it. What exactly would I be trying to accomplish?

I appreciate your response. And I'm really happy that you found what is right for you--dramatically decreasing your level of testosterone. As for me? I'm not for sure what is right, but I hope that with a long trial of HRT I will find the answer.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:40 am

Considering that the university that I work for was closed, I was not initially optimistic that my doctor's office would be open. To elaborate the point, I was quite annoyed for the second day in a row when I tried to go to the gym. After spending 20 minutes getting the ice off of my car that had been deposited there yesterday, I had to turn around and come back home without working out. But on my way home I saw that the trip odometer had just rolled over to 144 miles. I swear I'm not superstitious or anything, but that has been *my* number since high school. It probably doesn't help that when I see the number I start looking for something good to happen. LoL. Kind of a self re-enforcing thing I'm quite sure.

Okay, I'm getting way off track. I arrived at the doctor's office plenty early. I know that you are generally only allowed 10-15 minutes for your appointment to talk, but I wanted to give my doctor and I every opportunity to spend as much time together discussing this as possible. My doctor's nurse smiled when I told her that I didn't have any anxiety today. And my vitals were normal unlike last time.

Someone didn't show up for their appointment, so I got a little extra time than I otherwise would have if they had showed up. My family doctor is a very caring guy. I have been seeing him for over a decade as my primary care physician. I would describe him as someone that listens and always wants to help. I value his opinion. It was good that he had visited with my therapist. Because of also having bipolar he was initially a little suspect on what was going on just based on my initial consultation that I had with him during my last visit. Bipolar can present perplexing and complicated issues at times. I once read somewhere as advice to therapists, "If you are confused about the patient's symptoms and you don't know what is going on, suspect bipolar." It always struck me as funny and I wasn't all that surprised when my family doctor told me he had doubts that I had some kind of GID issue. I know I have been a pain in the ass over the years. But he also trusts my therapist who strongly believes that I have a GID issue that needs to be resolved.

He seemed a little confused when I said that I don't identify as being female in any way, but I also don't completely identify as male either. He looked at me funny and I said that it falls under the umbrella term genderqueer. And I went on to explain what it meant. He asked me what my therapist thought of it and I told him that it doesn't really surprise him too much. I think when people think GID, they tend to think M2F or F2M and that's it. But kind of like the area of sexuality, gender bending takes on variation outside of the strict binary gender classifications.

My doctor mentioned that he had done quite a bit of research and

guy26 (imported) wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:29 am read through all of the academic

related material I had given him last week. I really appreciate his time and effort on this. He gave me several options on lowering my testosterone level. I was initially surprised that he was thinking about options outside of depo provera. To me at least, it seems the most straight forward and the most commonly used outside of Siterone, which isn't approved here by the FDA in the United States. Then again my expertise comes down to self experimentation and anecdotal self reports on this site, which is good and all but maybe there are other things to consider too. And I haven't really had any problems trialing depo provera outside of maybe raising my blood pressure just a little and the mood problems it causes when I stop taking it. However, he was a little hesitant about any depo (injection) option at this point because they have long time frames that they are active and it is hard to adjust up or down within a short amount of time. I could have swore he mentioned the possibility of using a GnRH antagonist. I should have questioned him a bit more about that. The only thing that I'm aware of is Lupron which is ridiculously expensive and it could be the best option if I was wanting a complete shut down of testosterone. He could have been referring to something else, so I don't really know.

I listened intently during all of this. For a moment, I wasn't 100% sure if he thought that I wanted to go ALL the way down in testosterone. If so, I think that is a REALLY bad idea in the long term because of things like osteoporosis and problems with depression. I know that I would feel relief with a lower testosterone level, but I don't think it needs to go down to castrate levels for it to be effective at resolving my issue. I think the goal should be to minimize the change in hormone levels relative to my current baseline in order to get relief.

There is some possibility that being down at castrate levels may be right for me, but it simply scares the shit out of me. And i'm not for sure I could conceptually and cognitively accept that circumstance. I know I am driven to extremes, but even I have some internal limits. However, I would not have a problem accepting being at a testosterone level at the bottom of the range.

He went just a bit too fast when talking about the GnRH antagonist and the following option. He started mentioning about taking progesterone orally in addition to something else, but I'm not for sure what that something else was. I was kind of surprised by it all. It seems that others have taken progesterone orally and found it to have little effect. Does that seem right? Maybe I misunderstood something. I lost lock on what he was saying for just a moment. I think it had to do with my own surprise at the mention of a GnRH antagonist.

During my previous appointment with my family doctor, I had mentioned trying to start at the high end of

guy26 (imported) wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:09 am the normal range of testosterone a

nd working down. Up to this point, he hadn't mentioned anything about it, so I re-iterated the possibility of going up on testosterone just to make sure that going down is the right thing. I suppose by now he shouldn't be surprised by anything. But he looked at me again with surprise. I know. It seems completely paradoxical to even suggest it.

I mentioned that I strongly felt that if going up had some possibility to resolve or nearly resolve my issue, I would find that much more preferable given the long term consequences of being low on testosterone. I told him that I felt there was only about a 40% chance or less of it working. And I mentioned that my peers that had been castrated and found themselves on HRT, felt even less optimistic that it held much promise. But even so, I wanted to be sure. And I don't feel there is much harm in trying.

It seemed his biggest initial reaction was one of caution. He said that if it exacerbates my GID problem, then I would have stop immediately. I kind of laughed when he mentioned that. That is the whole point of trying it! LoL. I want to be really really sure that going down is the right decision. I need to have that confidence before committing to a long term plan of testosterone at the low end of normal to below normal. I would be happy in a way if I go up on testosterone and I feel that it is absolutely wrong. To me that would be a clear signal that going down is the right option. And I would no longer have doubts. As a reminder, the only reason I have some doubts is because of my experience with pro-hormones from years ago.

I asked him if he felt comfortable with this option and he said yes. He said that if I'm already at the high end of the normal testosterone range, then there would be no room to go up and it wouldn't be an option. I reminded him again that I had it checked twice in the past and I was right in the middle of the range. He double checked on the computer and said okay, you're right. I asked him if we go up and I am in the middle of the range, then what would be the target. He said the high end of course.

Because I don't have significant permanent damage, it complicates matters just a little on trying to reach some target testosterone level. And in my own research, I haven't felt completely happy with my understanding on the matter. So I asked hi

guy26 (imported) wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:29 am m on how fast and how much the HPT (hyp

othalamus pituitary testicular) axis adjusts to external sources of TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). He said that within a month my body will have adjusted its own production of testosterone down in response to taking exogenous testosterone. And by three months with a stable amount of exogenous testosterone there shouldn't be much if any changes to the HPT axis.

Given all that, my family doctor agreed to start me out with testosterone and a target of the high end of normal. But he wanted to get a more recent testosterone reading before proceeding. That sounds like a good idea given what I've recently done and the fact that the two previous readings were from 5 years ago. I am really curious if what I did will show up in the test. Based on my own internal sense of things, which has been proven to be a bad indicator by others on here for gauging ones level of testosterone, I don't think anything has really changed. I'm guessing that I am still right in the middle of normal. We shall see and I will let you know here in a couple of days when the test comes back.

At this point my doctor made it a point to let me know that my insurance may not pay for any of this. I told him I know. It seems that some insurance companies do not like to pay for GID related problems--both hormones and surgeries. In this case, it might even be less likely because my specific problem is less understood medically and it is an even rarer kind of GID problem. Krister, mentioned that my problem may only affect about 1 in 25,000 people. I don't know how that number was calculated, but this is a very rare problem indeed. And considering how difficult and taboo of an issue, many people probably never even present themselves to professionals for help, which obviously keeps this kind of problem in the dark.

My family doctor mentioned that he would prefer that I use androgel. I'm okay with that initially even if insurance is unwilling to pay. It is damn expensive, but I have the money for it for now. And this is more of an experiment than anything. No one really knows how this is going to affect my GID problem. To me it is important that I finally deal with this issue and find a resolution. Money isn't exactly the overriding factor at this point. If in the unlikely case that going up on testosterone somehow makes me feel enough like of a man inside and resolves the incongruity, then it will be more important that insurance contribute somehow or we switch to something cheaper like weekly injections of testosterone cypionate. Giving myself injections doesn't scare or concern me. If I can do it with depo provera, I don't see why any other muscular injection would be different.

So before I left, I had to have my blood drawn. My doctor left the room and said that someone would be in shortly to take my blood. He joking left the room almost singing the words "you are going to get your testosterone measured." I laughed and then the room was quiet. The phlebotomist arrived after 5 minutes. She was quiet and pleasant. Normally I am slightly nervous about having my blood drawn, but after having gone through quiet an epic conversation with my family doctor, it seemed mild in comparison. Imagine that.

This is hopefully the last step before starting on the journey to finding an answer. Because God knows I have waited half my life for this. I was so surprised when she stuck me with the needle. It was the least amount of pain I have ever felt when having my blood drawn. Maybe she stuck me in a small vein because it took a bit more time than usual to fill up the test tube. When she was done, I was compelled to tell her what I was thinking. There are at least a couple of realty TV shows based on addiction. And I recalled how I watched a woman who had been addicted to heroin for 10 years try to find a vein on her body that she could reach and inject her drug. Virtually all of the near surface veins had collapsed. After an hour she gave up and asked her boyfriend to help. Eventually they resorted to injecting heroin into her carotid artery on her neck! Holy Shit! It was so painful to watch. They didn't cut away for even a moment. Damn them. LoL. My phlebotomist recoiled in horror and disbelief and told me that she could never inject herself. But she said she didn't have any problem doing it to others. I'd hope not!

You might be wondering why I felt compelled to offer so many details about my latest trip to visit my general practitioner. I could have just told you, "Yeah, my doctor agreed to start me on testosterone." It's because I know many on here are scared to approach the medical profession and ask for help. I have been there myself. What we face in being drawn toward castration, whether it is BIID or GID based, is difficult or near impossible to approach them with it. Many on here act on their own accord or seek out back door cutters or more recently are injecting everclear into their testicles on their own. I completely understand all of that and have nearly relied on my own accord for years and years. And these issues are just on the fringe edge of what is even discussed in peer reviewed journals. But because I have taken the chance and opportunity to ask for professional help, I feel that it is important for you to see that you don't have to be afraid. You just have to be open and honest about what is going on. It is quite likely that your mileage WILL vary if and when you decide to ask for help, but I encourage you to reach out and take that risk.

I will continue to keep you updated about what happens...

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:24 am

I need to write today. What about? I'm not specifically sure. This morning I woke up from a kind of dream. Describing it as a dream would be a stretch. It was more a kind of deep introspection about the concept of self and what it meant to be me.

I have been anticipating going up on testosterone for a while now. I suppose it is a kind of last ditch effort to see if I can be happy as a mostly normal guy. The emphasis is on the word guy. The last couple of days I have had a tinge of reluctance. It isn't because I doubt that it will work. It is actually because I'm thinking that there is a relatively high chance of it working. But for some reason I wonder if I will lose my sense of self. And if who I am now will be lost to who I will become.

Don't get me wrong. In being bipolar, I have experienced all kinds of extremes. And there is an obvious ocean of difference between being deeply depressed and euphorically manic. I have heard others describe that when they are afflicted with extreme states of mind they don't really feel like they are themselves per se. They may even say something like, "That was someone else. That wasn't me." I have never felt that awkward kind of disconnect. There is no break in my self perception or my self identity. I have no problem separating out my core being from the state of mind that I find myself in. I know most of you have no first hand experience in this area and this point will probably go right on by you, so an analogy is in order. I'm bad at analogies so bear with me. I would describe the situation as being like a coloring book. On each page there is the same outline of you. Your mood is defined by the crayons that fill in the page. The two put together define a complete picture of who you really are at that moment, but throughout time there may be many slight variations of yourself. Often times the variations are not distinguishable from an outsiders perspective. It's only when someone starts drawing outside the lines do people take note and ask what the hell is going on. LoL. end of analogy...

The thing is... I know that I have radically changed several times over my life. It isn't that one day I woke up and suddenly I was different. No, it had to do with a large shift and a turn that took months or years to complete.

A week ago I was watching a video that I had made about 8 years ago. It was a video for my other half when he was away for a month in training while he was in the army. The video consisted of short segments shot over a week or more of my daily life. I looked in awe as I watched that video. I could hardly believe what I saw. The person that I watched does not really exist any more. Yes, I am a continuation of that person. But I am so different that I'm hardly recognizable except in form. I am aware of two other major changes in self, but I had failed to recognize that one. It caught me by surprise. I liked the person I saw and yet, I can't be that person again.

I think most people have a problem accepting change at some level. Maybe the greatest shock is that at some point in our youth we realize that we won't live forever. Maybe next in line is the idea that we are the center of the universe. As grand as it might seem, it too disappears in childhood. Change is all around us and even occurring inside of us. I was amazement several years ago when I found out that the human body nearly completely replaces itself over a 7 year time span. I found that disturbing and a total mind fuck. Eastern thought seemed a little more approachable and practical from that point of view. Time marches on and the world and ourselves morph from one moment to the next.

I have played with hormones in the past using depo provera. I know they are powerful and need to be treated with respect. The greatest effects are not had in the days and weeks, but instead on a much longer time frame. Obviously there are physical effects, but I think what is more important are the changes it develops inside.

When I was on depo provera I felt this kind of inner peace and that things were right. A seed of change is inside me. It took a reduction in testosterone to began to nurture that seed to grow. It is dominant now and its future is uncertain.

Possibly in a denialist's thought of desperation, I think that a noticeable increase in testosterone can nurturer the shrub that is stunted in growth and a little sickly looking. I know that I can grow the other seed from scratch by significantly reducing my testosterone, but I would much rather bring this shrub to its full potential by going up on testosterone. Both cannot really exist. One will be shaded from the light. For now, I am stuck on the fence just needing to be pushed one way or the other. Both the shrub and the seed are competing for my soul.

I have often wondered whether I am lucky in life. In some twisted fate, I have grabbed a larger handful of the human experience than others. If the whole point to life is to enrich oneself along the journey, than I'm well on my way to leading a rich meaningful life. Internal conflict can be a potent driver for introspection, contemplation, and gazing across the river of life. Too much of it and it gets in the way of leading *a* life.

For those that have gone forward with castration and/or HRT, do you feel that your actions have allowed you to more fully develop into the person that you have always felt was there? And have these changes caused you to really question your identity and the essence of yourself? Do you identify yourself as the same person that you were before making the life altering change?

feedback (imported) · Post by **feedback (imported)** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:43 am

The change that altered my life was not one I chose but one that happened none the less. Being without testosterone changed my life, caused me to question not only who I was but what I was and how I related to people. I tried going on Hrt but did not like the person I became when on it. I have grown to like the new me and would would like to have parts of the old me removed. Every now and then I try going back on hormones and the same aggressive, mean, self centered person seems to appear.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:08 am

feedback,

How long did it take for you to move into acceptance? I can't imagine being forced into low testosterone without choice. I could see it causing a lot of distress.

You seem to dislike the behavior that testosterone brings on in you and yet you go on it from time to time. What desirable traits and characteristics draw you to try it again and again?

raymar2020 (imported) · Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:49 am

Testosterone is a funny thing. I spent many years with a level between 50 and 300, and never even considered making it higher. After I finally reached the point that my non functional testicles were removed, I listened to my GP and went with a more standard dose.

I have always liked myself pretty well, and although I have morphed some over the years, the core of my being is pretty much unchanged in the last 25 years. I did always feel that it was extremely difficult to express myself when others were treading on my feelings. The "normal" level of testosterone has corrected that. I find that now after 2 plus years that its much easier and feels more natural to stand up for myself. As an example, in the past had someone stepped in front of me in a line at a store, I would have just allowed it. These days, I simply open my mouth and tell them of their rudeness, and bad behavior. I find that is a good example of the change. It has affected all my relationships positively, both casual and long term. People now know that can't get one over on me. It has helped make me happier with who I am.

I think for you to really come to terms with who you are, and finally make a decision about which direction you need to head, you must first experience both opposites. You have said that you have used Depo which should make you more submissive, and docile. From all you have said about yourself , in many respects that seems to fit you. Going in the other direction, and increasing testosterone may bring out a facet of your self that you prefer, or you may dislike who you become. Only experience can answer that.

Your interest in castration has a root somewhere, and finding out where it comes from is paramount , before you act to achieve it, and then regret the result. It is a fixation that has many facets and all must be fully understood.

You may find that a higher level of T will make you just who you seek to be, or your partner may tell you that it is a very negative change. Be open , discuss it with your therapist as you proceed, and with your partner and your closest friends as well. You need not get deeply into the whole castration thing, but simply explain the hormone trial and ask those closest to you to report on any change that they detect good or bad. This feedback will help you to decide which is best for you in your personal situation.

Don't be in a hurry either, you are plenty young, and have lots of time to reach a conclusion.

Raymar

feedback (imported) · Post by **feedback (imported)** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:30 am

It's been 10 or 12 years and it would have been easier for me to accept what I have become if it were not for the fact that I am married and my wife did not understand what I was going through. Also the community in which I live is not very accepting of anything but the norm. I went back on hormones for my wife, so I could be the " man of the house " again but find I much prefer the softer more emotional me. My problem was caused by a medical condition that was not diagnosed and for a long time I struggled with my changing emotions and preferences as far as sex and my body were concerned. You really have to live it to understand all the emotional differences and changes that take place. Maybe its because of my age but I prefer to be without hormones after living both ways. I still find I am attracted to people sexually and enjoy sex with my wife very much. It's just not penetrative sex and yes if I were ever to get together with a man I would be a bottom. I am much more submissive and gentler in my outlook and like it that way.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:42 am

Hi rammer,

It is interesting to read how you felt testosterone changed your personality. It sounds as if it gave you more self confidence and enough aggressive drive to fight back when necessary and appropriate. If people were taking advantage of you and taking testosterone put a stop to that, that sounds like a good enough reason to me for you to keep taking it.

As a comparison, my aggressive level is nearly nonexistent. It has always been that way whether on depo provera or at my natural level of testosterone, which is in the middle of the normal range. I don't allow people to walk on me or take advantage of me. I have a way of diffusing problems with intellect, critical thinking, and sometimes trying to think one step ahead of it. In dealing with difficult problems, it is usually emotions that I fight from clouding my judgement and intellect. Luckily anger is rarely one of them. In fact, it is nearly impossible to make me mad. I have been with my other half coming up on 10 years this May and we have never really seriously fought. We have problems just like every couple, but we resolve them by being open and talking to each other. Sometimes it isn't resolve in one night, but we work through it.

When I try going up on testosterone, it's possible my level of aggression could go up. Considering that it is starting from about zero, I'm not too concerned. But because I so rarely feel anger, I find it a particularly nasty experience. Several times I have experienced significant anger and aggression when going through rapid cycling. The anger isn't because of anyone, anything, or any situation. It just comes from no where. I call this place of nowhere the vacuum. It is the source for the strongest emotions I have felt in life.

I loath anger. I find it a painful thing to experience. And it doesn't fit my personality. It may be the ultimate emotion that overrides any amount of rational thought. Obviously, I wouldn't be too happy about experiencing anger frequently. It is something that I will be keeping an eye on for sure.

It's entirely possible that changes could occur inside of me that are outside of my awareness. And so I agree that it is a good idea to be open to others. And listen to what they have to say should they start noticing changes, especially those changes they perceive as negative. I have a lot of self awareness, but everyone has their limits. In dealing with bipolar, I often ask those around me to let me know if they see something going on. Hypomania, an elevated mood, is an insidious beast that has a tendency to catch me off guard time and again. The irony is that no one has been successful in detecting it before I do. I think the reason for this is that it takes a BIG shift in my mood before people are able to recognize it. I liken a mood change to a big wave that crashes into my psyche. The brunt of the impact is absorbed. And people only notice the much smaller waves that rebounded out in my facial expressions and actions. It could also be that those who know me just accept a wider flavor of mood and behavior and accept it as part of my personality. I have yet to really figure this one out. Maybe part of it is that I don't necessarily act out on how I feel. If something is irrational, I acknowledge it but try not to express it in a way that is disruptive.

Anyway, all that I'm getting at is that I'm not for sure how much other people will notice internal changes caused by an increase in testosterone. I'll keep the lines of communication open and see what happens. Probably the thing I'm most concerned with is having my mood worsened as I adjust to a new hormone level. I know it is a risk, but the long term benefits outweigh it even if it does occur.

I also agree that I just won't have enough certainty to stay at a significantly lowered level of testosterone until I know for sure what is on the higher side. I think that's why this trial is particularly important. It will help broaden my knowledge and understanding of myself. And maybe more importantly I will know whether I can finally feel like a guy inside. It almost makes me cry when I say that. It pains me at the deepest levels to admit to other people that I don't feel like a guy inside. For once in my life I just want to be normal. It might not be possible, but I have to find out. If testosterone wasn't a controlled substance, I would have already tried it on my own. I know that's bad, so maybe it is good it is a controlled substance. It's ironic that in some ways estrogen is more dangerous when taken unsupervised and yet you can import it into the united states with no problems. I'm not discounting the potentially dangerous situation of a high red blood cell count and/or hemoglobin levels from too much testosterone. It just seems one is more dangerous to me than the other. I could be wrong. I don't claim to be a doctor.

The good thing is that I have little doubts about the root of my interest in castration. It's taken a long time to come to that understanding. I agree that there are many potential facets for the desire of castration. Some of them could hardly justify the risk of proceeding forward with it, such as if it was only a fetish. For me the desire will always be there until I find relief with this kind of incongruity that just keeps going on and on and on like the energizer bunny. God knows that I have tried to deal with this in virtually every other way over the last decade, and I have yet to find anything that helps.

I think that other peoples' expectations will also take time to fully incorporate. Just as I might exhibit some kind of psychosomatic response to taking testosterone, other peoples' expectations may create perceptions that don't really exist. I think time really is the key to sorting things out. Hormones are subtle in a way, but very significant. As a case in point on other's perceptions, I remember coming home from the doctor's office a couple days ago. My other half had just woken up and I had a big smile on my face. He looked at me squarely and said, "I can tell he shot you up with testosterone." I laughed and said that wasn't the case. I was just happy and relieved that I'm one step closer to starting on this journey to solving a complex problem.

I hope I don't sound like I am too much in a hurry. For me this problem has been driving me crazy for 15+ years. And I began to deal with it 5 years ago. And sought professional help about 6 months ago. I'm not looking for a quick answer. I'm sure it is going to take time to find the right level of testosterone whether it turns out to be on the high side or the low side.

I appreciate your advice and insight.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:57 am

Hi feedback,

I'm sorry to hear that your situation became complicated as you unknowingly went through a significant drop in testosterone that played out for years. That sounds like quite an epic struggle. I find self awareness is the only thing that keeps me on track in life with my occasional struggles.

I have read that changes in hormone levels do not cause a change in sexual preference. It sounds like you are bisexual. I assume that didn't change because of going down on testosterone. Is that correct? While on depo provera, I never noticed even a slight change in sexual preference.

I also found that with a lowered testosterone level, I still wanted sex. Oddly, I'd say I enjoyed it even more. I know that seems a bit paradoxical on the surface, given that I didn't have an urge to get off. But it allowed me to feel way more connected and intimate with my other half and not just focused on getting off. The first time that we had sex when I was on depo provera, I wasn't for sure how I was going to feel about it. Sometimes we are pleasantly surprised in life.

Unfortunately my other half doesn't have the strongest sex drive in the world. I would feel a little more confident going down on testosterone if I knew that we weren't going to be less frequently intimate. I tend to always initiate things.

It's interesting you say that you are more submissive and gentler when you have less testosterone. I'm not sure I would say that about myself. Even when I was on depo provera for four months, it didn't affected me that way. I just felt closer to who I am inside normally.

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:51 am

I have been meaning to write about this, but I haven't gotten around to it until now. This isn't super related to this thread, but it doesn't really deserve one on its own either.

Whenever I have a very powerful orgasm, it feels amazingly great. But I start to feel bad after a few minutes. I feel down and drawn to take a hot shower. I often just stand under the shower head crying and sometimes bawling. It tends to last about 10 minutes and then it is gone like nothing happened. I don't have orgasms that rock my world all that often, so it isn't something that I frequently deal with hardly ever. I'm not even for sure what it is that I'm feeling when it happens. It has nothing to do with what I'm cognitively thinking about. It isn't like there is some moral issue and I'm suddenly struck with guilt and shame. I don't know what it is, but it is weird. LoL

If I have an orgasm that is pretty high on the scale, but not excessive, I can usually avoid feeling too bad by eating a piece or two of dark chocolate. Don't ask me why it helps. It sounds stupid even to me.

I know this *problem* is dumb and it doesn't bother me too much in the grand scheme of things. It's just so weird I thought I'd put it out there and see if anyone could identify with it. LoL. I'm guessing no. I'm just weird.

The reason this came to mind is that I decided to wait a few days to get off. My piercing was bothering me after moving my price albert from a 10ga captive ring to to an 8ga ring. I had one hell of an orgasm last night and subsequently felt horrible for about 10 to 15 minutes. I decided to mention it to my other half. I have never mentioned it to anyone before because it just seemed silly, stupid, or maybe was my imagination.

I'm open to speculation. Or if you just want to laugh, that's fine too.

Uncle Flo (imported) · Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:50 am

I do not know if this information is of any value to you, but you are not the only one. I have had both a girlfriend and a boyfriend that had the same reaction to a powerful orgasm. They became sad and cried afterwards then went on as if nothing unusual had happened. The boyfriend said he felt guilt. The girlfriend only said it was normal for her. --FLO--

guy26 (imported) · Post by **guy26 (imported)** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:58 am

Uncle Flo (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:50 am I do not know if this information is of any value to you, but you are not the only one. I have had both a girlfriend and a boyfriend that had the same reaction to a powerful orgasm. They became sad and cried afterwards then went on as if nothing unusual had happened. The boyfriend said he felt guilt. The girlfriend only said it was normal for her. --FLO--

Yeah, it helps a little; It just means that I'm not that unique. I could understand how guilt might be a cause for feeling bad afterward. But in the absence of that it is a little mysterious.

The only other noteworthy thing is that my normal orgasms are a lot more powerful than anyone else's I have witnessed. Maybe too much of a good thing really is a bad thing? LoL. I can live with that explanation.

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Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank

Posting Rank