matthew 19:12

[knightbird111 (imported)]

For bible scholars, is matthew 19:12 allow testicle removal only? Is a man with a penectomy also considered a eunuch?

[Atreyu88 (imported)]

I always thought it was referring to any man or boy who was unable to have sexual intercourse.

For bible scholars, is matthew 19:12 allow testicle removal only? Is a man with a penectomy also considered a eunuch?

[Paolo]

Your guess is as good as anyone.

I don't think any of us here are really sure what the definition of "eunuch" was at the time that the book of Matthew was written.

Then again, Jesus can probably find out.

[cheetaking243 (imported)]

The official Greek Lexicon word that is being used for "eunuch" in this verse is "εὐνοῦχος" which in its original Greek is a combination of two words, "eune," meaning "bed," and "ἔχω," meaning "to have, to hold, to possess," or also can mean "to have possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.)" "Holder of the bedchamber" when used in describing the occupation. As such, it is being used both literally and figuratively to refer to those who are the keepers of the bed chamber, the eunuch occupation which was indeed well-established in Roman culture at the time, as well as those who abstain from sex, figuratively making themselves eunuchs.

Also, look earlier in the verse. It comes in the context of Jesus speaking to his disciples about divorce. He says that whoever divorces and remarries is committing adultery, and his disciples reply "then it is better not to marry." And Jesus then replies that not everyone can receive this law, and then speaks of born eunuchs (those born unable to have sex,) those who were made eunuchs by men (official palace eunuchs,) and those who make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God. (probably referring to those who purposefully abstain from marriage for the sake of religious devotion.)

So in this verse, it is likely not talking about actual physical castration when it talks about people making themselves eunuchs, it is using "eunuch" as a metaphor to mean those who choose to hold back their desires for sex (to hold fast their desires for the bed, as it would be with the translation.)

But hey, nowhere in the New Testament does it say anything about making oneself a eunuch literally too being a bad thing, so why are you looking for confirmation on this? If it's what you want, go for it, Christianity certainly isn't stopping you. There is actually a very long and recorded history of early Christians castrating themselves. And although penectomy was not generally a part of this, who's to say that you couldn't if you really wanted to?

[transward (imported)]

If it's what you want, go for it, Christianity certainly isn't stopping you. There is actually a very long and recorded history of early Christians castrating themselves. And although penectomy was not generally a part of this, who's to say that you couldn't if you really wanted to?

Most famous is Origen, third century theologian and early church father. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Eusebius reported that Origen, following Matthew 19:12 literally, castrated himself. This story was accepted during the Middle Ages and was cited by Peter Abelard in his letters to Heloise. Scholars within the past century have questioned this, surmising that this may have been a rumor circulated by his detractors. The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this. However, renowned historian of late antiquity Peter Brown finds no reason to deny the truth of Eusebius' claims. They are also accepted by Edward Gibbon in his work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Gibbon asserts that, at least initially, rather than generating censure, Origen's self-castration was the focus of admiration, and dryly observes that "As it was his general practice to allegorise scripture, it seems unfortunate that, in this instance only, he should have adopted the literal sense." William Placher, a historian of theology, also accepted the tale, and he added that if it is true, it may have followed an episode in which Origen received some raised eyebrows while privately tutoring a woman. However, Henry Chadwick disagrees. He allows that the story may be true, but if so, it would be odd, given that Origen's exposition of Matthew 19:12 "strongly deplored any literal interpretation of the words. Perhaps," Chadwick continues, "Eusebius was uncritically reporting malicious gossip retailed by Origen's enemies, of whom there were many."

This passage has been controversial since the earliest days of the church. Interpretation has been all over the place, from viewing it as allegorical to those like Origen who took it too literally.

Transward

[lust-ocd (imported)]

The Noah Webster 1828 dictionary confirms what a eunuch was, in Matthew 19:12 -

EU'NUCH, n. [Gr. a bed, and to keep.] A male of the human species castrated.

Matthew 19:12 (KJV)

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have mad

e themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of

heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it , let him receive it.

[knightbird111 (imported)]

is a person with a penectomy considered a eunuch as well ? I wondered to myself this.

Removal of testicles is a eunuch, removal of the penis ...a eunuch too?

what if the guy has balls but no penis, still a eunuch ?

[devi (imported)]

The Noah Webster 1828 dictionary confirms what a eunuch was, in Matthew 19:12 -

EU'NUCH, n. [Gr. a bed, and to keep.] A male of the human species castrated.

Matthew 19:12 (KJV)

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have mad

1354955040]
e themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of

[/quote]

heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it , let him receive it.

From what I had been explained as a kid was that those which are eunuchs "born from the mother's womb" are those that have been born without the ability to procreate or have any offspring. However everyone can have sex at some level. And those which are eunuchs "made of men" have undergone surgery however crude and rudimentary or else have suffered from an accident which then required having the wound to be closed "by men". Monasticism and hermitage is composed of voluntary eunuchs "for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

[knightbird111 (imported)]

got the elastrator, I seriously cant get 1 testicle into the rubber band, oh well 20 bucks down the drain

elastrator idea is out the window

[Paolo]

I think you must have gotten a small cheap one?

[Hash (imported)]

Castration did/does remove sexual desire and that would stop one from committing sexual sins according to the Bible. Multiple passages tell Christians not to commit sexual sin:

Galatians 5:19 - "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;"

Ephesians 5:3 - "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

Colossians 3:5 - "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry."

Controlling your sexual urges as we know is not easy, castration would eliminate 90% of those urges or more, so by being castrated you could keep your self sexually pure.

[Sweetpickle (imported)]

I think this discussion requires that castration be divided into literal and figurative parts.

I think that bible passage is speaking of figurative castration, that is anyone who

consistently restrains from sexual intercourse, as a eunuch.

If a literal eunuch indulges in sexual practices I don't think he would fit into the

intent of this bible passage.

The passage is addressing the question of sin associated with sex, in this case

some types of biblically forbidden practices. If you never engage in sex then

you cannot turn a woman into a whore.

[Origen (imported)]

Castration did/does remove sexual desire and that would stop one from committing sexual sins according to the Bible. Multiple passages tell Christians not to commit sexual sin:

Galatians 5:19 - "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;"

Ephesians 5:3 - "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

Colossians 3:5 - "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry."

Controlling your sexual urges as we know is not easy, castration would eliminate 90% of those urges or more, so by being castrated you could keep your self sexually pure.

Wouldn't it be good if people worried as much about greed as they do about 'sexual immorality"...

[Origen (imported)]

εὐνοῦχος , ὁ, (εὐνή, ἔχω)

A. castrated person, eunuch, employed to take charge of the women and act as chamberlain (whence the name, ὁ τὴν εὐνὴν ἔχων), Hdt.3.130, al., Ar.Ach. 117, X.Cyr.7.5.60, etc.

2. of animals, Philostr.Her.1.3, Sch.Par.A.R.1.585.

3. of dates, without stones, Arist.Fr.267:—Pythag. name for θρίδαξ, Lycusap. Ath.2.69e.

II. as Adj., watching the bed, sleepless, "λαμπάδες εὐνούχοισιν ὄμμασιν" S.Fr.789.

[Paolo]

Thank you, oh scholarly readers!

[lust-ocd (imported)]

Castration did/does remove sexual desire and that would stop one from committing sexual sins according to the Bible. Multiple passages tell Christians not to commit sexual sin:

Galatians 5:19 - "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;"

Ephesians 5:3 - "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."

Colossians 3:5 - "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry."

Controlling your sexual urges as we know is not easy, castration would eliminate 90% of those urges or more, so by being castrated you could keep your self sexually pure.

Yep, there's loads of them. Here's a few more that spring to mind -

1 Peter 2:11 (KJV)

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Galatians 5:16-17 (KJV)

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:24 (KJV)

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 8:1 (KJV)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (KJV)

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

lust ruined my live, and the lives of others. It led to adultery, porn addiction, prostitutes, and worse. i'm now disgusted with myself and hate lust with a passion, hence my desire to become a eunuch. i once lived for lust, but now i want to live for love, with a clean heart and concience. Lust, once my greatest pleasure, has somehow become my own personal hell and torment.

Darth Paulo, if you strike this post down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[Riverwind (imported)]

I believe that DARTH PAOLO would have killed this thread long ago if that was the LORDS intent however a WARNING keep it to references not opinion.

the LORDS assistant,

River

[Paolo]

I don't mind the quotes. It's no worse than quoting anything else, say...a cookbook.

Just don't start preaching and telling us we're all going to hell.

Please respect each others' beliefs, and it'll be just fine.

Galatians 5:24 (KJV)

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

You can't describe castration much better than that, can you?!



Thank you.

[lust-ocd (imported)]

Thank

you, oh scholarly readers!

I don't mind the quotes. It's no worse than quoting anything else, say...a cookbook.

Just don't start preaching and telling us we're all going to hell.

Please respect ea[q

uote="lust-ocd (imported)" time=1355393880]
ch others' beliefs, and it'll be just fine.

Galatians 5:24

(KJV)

And they that are Christ's have crucified

the flesh with the aff
[/quote]
ections and lusts.

You can't describe castration much better than that, can you?!



Thank you.

Exactly! One man preaches abelief in Christ, yet still continues to walk after the lust of the flesh in hypocracy. Another man still doesn't know what he believes, yet has made himself a eunuch and stopped walking after the lust of the flesh. i wonder which one God will be pleased with, he that flapped his lips but continued lusting, or he that actually did the will of God as pertaining to Galations 5:24 and put lust to death?

[Dave (imported)]

Exactly! One man preaches abelief in Christ, yet still continues to walk after the lust of the flesh in hypocracy. Another man still doesn't know what he believes, yet has made himself a eunuch and stopped walking after the lust of the flesh. i wonder which one God will be pleased with, he that flapped his lips but continued lusting, or he that actually did the will of God as pertaining to Galations 5:24 and put lust to death?

WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW.

Take my hint and be quiet, please.

[Paolo]

OK, that's it...

[JesusA]

I've been resisting getting involved in a theological conversation that is so incredibly complex as this one. There are far too many factors involved for us to know what these words "really" mean (or meant at the time they were written down).

First of all, the words in Matthew 19:12 were originally written in Greek at least a generation after the conversation that they reputedly record word for word. A conversation that was originally held in Aramaic, a language as different in grammar and vocabulary from Greek as Arabic is from English. The earliest surviving manuscript copy of the original is from three centuries later, having gone through the hands of several different copyists along the way, probably with copyist errors.

Second, there were numerous eunuchs in society at the time of Jesus. He, and his followers, would have had contact with them and would have been very familiar with how they were produced. Tertullian, one of the earliest Christian theologians, in his De Monogamia, even claimed that the author of the Gospel According to Matthew was, himself, a eunuch. If the author of Matthew really was a eunuch, he may have had an incentive to include eunuchs in his text.

Third, there was an important cultural divide between the lands to the east and south of the Bosphorus/Medditerranean divide and those to the west and north of it. Eunuchs were common and frequently in high positions on one side and both rare and despised on the other. Jerusalem was on one side and Rome on the other. Before the spread of Christianity, there were few eunuchs in Greece or Rome. After the spread of Christianity they became far more common to the west. Whether they spread WITH Christianity or only incidentally to the spread of Christianity is not adequately understood. At least one historian (Harper 2011) sees the increase in the number of eunuchs in the west as a direct result of increasing Christianization and the spread of the idea with the faith.

Fourth, there are frequent mentions of early Christian eunuchs and of Christians seeking castration. At least one group of Jesus-followers in the area to the east of Jerusalem believed that, not only should all true Christian males be castrated, but that it was their sacred duty to castrate non-believers (even unwillingly) to save their souls (Amidon 1990). The importance of celibacy in the early church (see, especially, the Pauline Epistles) led to the practice of castration as a way to maintain total chastity. Theophylact, Archbishop of Orchrid and Bulgaria in the early 12th century, even suggested that, while the self-castration by an adult to maintain his chastity was abhorrent, the castration of a boy by his own family for the same purpose could be a respectable Christian act. Self-castration by an adult was seen as taking the easy way out of sexuality.

Fifth, the practice of self-castration to maintain celibacy, despite being condemned by the First Council of Nicea (AD 325), which was dominated by Roman appointees, persisted in the east until much later. Many prominent Eastern Orthodox leaders, including the Patriarch St. Ignatius (c. 797-877), were eunuchs. There were even monasteries reserved for eunuchs. It was rare after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, but castration to maintain celibacy was practiced by Christians sporadically in some regions in the east. The Skoptzy sect of Russian Orthodox Christianity continued to adopt orphan boys in order to castrate them in the name of Christ as late as the beginning of WWII. (Some of our best data on the physiological consequences of prepubertal castration comes from German and Swiss doctors who examined Skoptzy in the 1920s and 30s. Lipschültz (1924), for example, describes the physical examination of a young Skoptzy adult, castrated at age 10, who had an erection during his exam. Evidence that prepubertal castration does NOT prevent some sexual functioning. Aucoin & Wassersug (2006) discuss the sexuality of eunuchs in various times and places.)

Does Matthew 19:12 refer to actual castration, rather than symbolic? Does it refer to simple attempts to maintain chastity? My guess, given the various lines of evidence, is that it refers to the actual surgical removal of testicles, though I'm well aware that some modern theologians dispute that.

REFERENCES:

Amidon, P.R. (1990). The Panarion of St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis. New York: Oxford University Press.

Aucoin, M.W. & R.J. Wassersug (2006). The Sexuality and Social Performance of Androgen-Deprived (Castrated) Men Throughout History: Implications for Modern Day Cancer Patients. Social Science & Medicine 63: 3162-3173.

Harper, K. (2011). Slavery in the Late Roman World, AD 275-425. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Lipschütz, A. (1924). The Internal Secretions of the Sex Glands: The Problem of the "Puberty Gland." Cambridge: W. Heffer & Sons Ltd.

[Paolo]

Reopened at Jesus' request.

Keep it civil.

[lust-ocd (imported)]

Thankyou Paulo! The subject of this thread is Matthew 19:12, therefore as a Bible believer, it's hard for me to discuss it except from a perspective of Biblical belief. But i will try to not offend the beliefs of others (it would be nice if also others did thesame! Things like comparing the Holy word of God to a cookbook, or signatures like 'go nuke a gay baby whale for Jesus', is certainly not respecting the beliefs of others either).

My intention to get surgically castrated is actually based on Matthew 19:12. It seems to be averse that no preacher will touch with a barge pole. But i LOVE that verse, and it's given me such hope.

[lust-ocd (imported)]

i definately think Matthew 19:12 is speaking about literal castration. Other people can come to their own conclusions.

i was reading about Boston Corbett, who supposedly because of his Christian faith, castrated himself with a pair of rusty scissors to avoid temptation with prostitutes. That probably had something to do with Matthew 19:12.