Gender Confusion

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

I often read about eunuch gender here and wonder about the difference between "eunuch" and "neutrois" gender.

I am definitively asexual what means I don't feel any sexual attraction. And I have a discomfort with my body as male - I never want to be a woman but I don't feel as a male. I don't feel both, I am not androgynous but nothing. I am not really trapped in my body because there is no breaking out like a transsexual can do ... but it is a dysphoira: What I see is simply wrong. My body should represent my sexuality - neutral. This is way I claim I am neutrois. Right now I am searching cloths etc to find the neutrois way, so I am in transition but it is very difficult - If I ever do the surgery this would be a sex reassignment surgery but to a not accepted sex.

The eunuch know sexual attraction (often gay) and want to get rid of the testicels without being genderless. Often they only want castration without changing the male appearance or penectomy. A lot of eunuchs here just want to be castrated and nothing other should happen. They are definitely male in appearance, behaviour ... in all points but want just have no testicels (I don't talk about medical reasons or bid)

I fit in a well known picture from

http://canterburyccq.files.wordpress.co ... ad-2_1.jpg

My:

Identity = Genderless

Expression = Gender Neutral

Biology = Male

Attraction = Asexual

The problem is the contradiction between biology and the rest.

But what is the core of eunuch gender then? Where do the eunuch identity fits in there?

[unencumbered (imported)]

[W]

hat is the core of eunuch gender then? Where do the eunuch identity fits in there?

The basic characteristic of a eunuch is a male who does not have testicles. As a result, he cannot beget offspring. His sex drive is significantly diminished or non-existent. Untreated, he has the symptoms of a post-menopausal woman.

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

Yes of course, this are the medical points and they are absolutly clear but -

what is the core of eunuch gender

identity people talking about some times? I only talk about volontarily castrated who claim to feel an eunuch identity. Not medical nessecery or by accident, not fetish reasons.

I try to understand the difference between trans, neutrois, eunuch and related identitys.

This helps a bit:

http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011 ... ification/

[unencumbered (imported)]

Yes of course, this are the medical points and they are absolutly clear but -

[quote="Marian-Zero (imported)" t

ime=1402990860]
what is the core of eunuch gender

identity people talking about some times? I only talk about volontarily castrated who claim to feel an eunuch identity. Not medical nessecery or by accident, not fetish reasons.

I try to understand the difference between trans, neutrois, eunuch and related identitys.

This helps a bit:

http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/201
[/quote]
1/02/13/male-to-eunuch-asexuality-and-gender-nullification/

Whether the person was castrated for medical reasons, or for otherwise, the outcome is still the same. Even if he does not identify himself in public as a eunuch due to the negative societal connotations the appellation often infers or if he does not see himself as being one, he still is. I don't think that it really matters if one embraces it as a gender identification beyond that of having certain characteristics different than an intact male. Being straight, gay or transgendered has nothing to do with it. There are heterosexual, homosexual and transgendered eunuchs. The core attributes of what is a eunuch are the same.

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

You say there is no gender identity eunuch. Without testicels you are an eunuch. This is right and wrong.

Right: Yes you are an eunuch then. This is your new sex.

Wrong: A medically castrated man have still the gender identity man even without nuts. This makes no difference for the identity.

Ther are serious scientists who say there is a gender identity "eunuch" - e.g.

http://www.sexualhealthvisual.com/Video ... f_standard s_of_care_for_individuals_with_a_male_to_eunuch_ge nder_identity_disorder.html

I ask:

1. Is it a disorder?

2. How to distinguish from neutrois/trans/agendered etc?

My feeling:

1. Yes and can be surgically cured.

2. It is something like transsexualism. It is not neutrois because of the male expression and the attraction but a non binary identity and close to neutrois.

But - I am not sure.

[tugon (imported)]

I very much identify as a eunuch. I do not relate to male or female but have a sympathy to both. I was not comfortable as a male but had no interest in becoming female. I knew I was something else. Now I live in a world between the two.

I have never used HRT of either T or E. I am still attracted to men but my drive is not strong enough to pursue anything physical. My fear of meeting another unkind person also holds me back.

My desire to become a eunuch and my real self was as much a part of me as my eye color or family resemblance. I am sure some might call it a disorder but my life improved after castration. Does a disorder improve one's life. I would say for me it was not a disorder but a corrective procedure. Unlike some I never hated my testicles just what they manufactured. T was poisoning my brain.

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

Yes - not the castration is the disorder but the cure and this is what you found is true for you. The castration improved your life because your body and your soul did not fit before castration, now it dies. This is great.

The important point is: Sometging else, not male not female. You are inbetween. But there are more options like outside, a third, nothing.

I feel I am "nothing" not "inbetween" ... every time I try to describe it I don't find words because ther is no word. But take the pronouns. I feel "it" would fit.

I think a typical eunuch feels "he" but something inbetween. Or nothing or outside?

[unencumbered (imported)]

I very much identify as a eunuch. I do not relate to male or female but have a sympathy to both. I was not comfortable as a male but had no interest in becoming female. I knew I was something else. Now I live in a world between the two.

If there such a thing as a eunuch gender identity, I suppose that it can best be described as the ambiguity of not being a normal man, yet not being a woman either. I know that I identify with other eunuchs as being akin to me. Their particular sexual orientation doesn't seem to matter.

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

This is true for me but I don't feel "I am eunuch" - e.g. cutting of my testicels would not help. I want to be neutral not just castrated or inbetween.

Maybe this helps a bit: http://neutrois.com/what-is-neutrois/

[unencumbered (imported)]

This

I want to be neutral not just castrated or inbetween.

While castration does alter one's sexuality, it does not change the resulting eunuch's sexual orientation.

[Mac (imported)]

This is true for me but I don't feel "I am eunuch" - e.g. cutting of my testicels would not help. I want to be neutral not just castrated or inbetween.

Maybe this helps a bit: http://neutrois.com/what-is-neutrois/

Does that mean that you desire to loose all items of sexual identity: Testicles, scrotun, penis & prostate?

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

Yes. All items of biological sex. This may include voice and hair too but not female. My identity is neutral and I want my body as neutral as possible too.

About prostata I did not think so much until now because I don't see it but yes ... testicels, scrotum and penis definitivly yes. If I ever do surgery - I want it all removed. I want to be a total neutrum not just castrated.

[raymar2020 (imported)]

Marian-Zero,

I think the gist of your original post has been somewhat obscured. There is a small minority of humans who have no sexual attraction to either sex. There is nothing wrong with that, it is simply a variant of the human form. To desire to not really have any visible signs of either maleness or femaleness to me makes perfect sense for such a person. If there is no interest in pursuing some sort of physical sexuality, then not representing either gender seems the right fit for such a person.

If thru self reflection and with the guidance of a skilled mental health professional you have become quite confident of your totally asexual nature, then seeking to eliminate the male sexual traits seems the best choice for your own mental health. Making your body fit your mind is only sensible.

In effect it is a kind of transexualism, but not shifting between the binary genders, but stopping in the middle of the two.I have spoken several times to a young man who seeks to be genderless, below the belt, but wishes to maintain human traits above. Ideally keeping nipples but not having a beard or breasts and wearing hair in a non-gender style. His further thought is to dress in a non binary fashion, so all who see him would be unsure of how to classify him.

Folllow your heart and reach deep into yourself, as well as reaching out to a counselor who is undertstanding of, and accepting of your thoughts.

Raymar

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

Yes ...

About 1% of people seems to be asexual scientists say but less want to be neutral.

The young man you describe is exactly me. And I do the non surgical part already.

In effect it is a kind of transexualism, [...] to a counselor who is undertstanding of

I did. He can not help. There is nothing wrong with asexuality, yes. But transsexualism is only accepted to male or female not to neutral ...

And the real gist of my post was: Is there a eunuch identity and what is the difference to the neutrois identity?

[JesusA]

About 1% of people seems to be asexual scientists say but less want to be neutra...l.

But transsexualism is only accepted to male or female not to neutral ...

And the real gist of my post was: Is there a eunuch identity and what is the difference to the neutrois identity?

You are correct that at least 1% of the population is asexual in sexual orientation. Anthony Bogaert of Brock University in Canada has been the most important academic studying the group. He has a number of publications on the topic in academic journals. Asexuality is clearly part of normal human variation. Some people are heterosexual; some homosexual; some bisexual; and some asexual. It's just they way they are and the variation is perfectly normal. It's probably even "hardwired" in the brain before birth.

You definitely need to find a new counselor - one who follows the current Standards of Care of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (7th edition). The current edition includes genders outside the binary. Free PDF copies of the Standards of Care are available in eight languages so far as a download from http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_a ... bpage=4655. They are currently working on translations into more languages.

In post #5 above, you linked to a presentation by Kayla Vale at the 19th World Congress for Sexual Health, held in Goteborg, Sweden in 2009. It was a short presentation of part of a paper published in the International Journal of Transsexualism as one of a series of working papers toward the WPATH 7th edition. Several members of the Eunuch Archive served as co-authors on the paper. Any Archive member wishing a PDF copy of the published paper need only send me a <Private Message> giving me an email address that will accept attachments. (The EA server will not.)

The 5th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association, also expands possible genders from the simple binary to the real complexity that we find. Eunuchs, while not specifically mentioned, are included in the range of normal variation. Several members of this community wrote working papers that were used by the committee writing the new version.

Some of these same EA members have also written working papers for the World Health Organization committee that is currently re-writing the International Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (to become the ICD-11). It is still too early to tell how Male-to-Eunuch Gender Dysphoria or Xenomelia (also known as Body Integrity Identity Disorder) will be handled in the new version, but we expect at least some expansion beyond the binary.

I'll get to your third question in a later post. I do have some ideas (and some solid data) on the subject.

[JesusA]

Eunuch is the oldest recognized gender outside the male-female binary. There have been eunuchs in society for over 4,000 years. Castration itself was invented at least 1,000, and probably more than 2,000 years before that - at least 5,000 years ago and probably more than 7,000 years ago.

The first systematic, intentional castrations of humans found in the written records are from the Sumerian city of Lagash in about 2,100 BCE. At the time, Lagash was the largest city in the world, and after its fall, no other city approached that size for several centuries. In the huge mound that remains, hundreds of thousands of cuneiform tablets have been found, most of them still untranslated, but among them are many census records. The Sumerians seem to have delighted in describing and counting things.

A major industry of Lagash was weaving, all done by slave women. Slaves were not allowed to marry, but the weaving women had many children. The girls became weaving women like their mothers. The question was what to do about the boys. Young boys show up in the records of a weaving establishment by name and general age, and in later documents from the same establishment, they are noted by name, general age, and the term previously used only for castrated donkeys. They are set to work at the same job as castrated donkeys - hauling barges on the canals of the realm.

They were certainly not voluntary eunuchs, but castration was something done to them to make them more suitable for their jobs. Donkeys had been castrated for centuries to better prepare them for work, now the boys were too.

Very soon, however, it was discovered that castrated boys/men had many other uses beyond physical labor. Having fewer distractions and not being rivals for power, they began to infiltrate government administration, some rising to high positions within the palace heirarchy.

Within a couple of centuries, ambitious parents began to castrate their younger sons to assure them an occupation and an opportunity for a secure economic future. Eunuchs began to be sourced from both within and without the realm; from both slave and free.

By the time of the Assyrian Empire, boys from conquered peoples were regularly sent to the capital to be castrated for government service. There they vied with the castrated younger sons of Assyrian nobles for positions as ambassadors, provincial administrators and high government bureaucrats. Religious and military officials might also be eunuchs. There was even an office in the palace whose sole purpose was to inspect new eunuchs to make certain that they had been properly castrated. Those eunuchs who did not achieve high status might find themselves as chariot drivers or archers in the feared Assyrian army that swept through the Middle East.

Over the following centuries the use of eunuchs, both internally and externally sourced, both voluntary and involuntary, continued. In many ways they were the "glue" that held together the major Eurasian empires over the next 3,000 years. Successful kings and emperors were those who could effectively balance the power of the eunuch bureaucracy against the power of the landed and/or military elite. Eunuchs were common enough and visible enough that many of the highest postions were staffed by voluntary (or, at least, castrated by their own family) eunuchs sourced from within the realm.

Why were eunuchs so successful in administrative positions? We know that personality is partly shaped by hormones. The large survey that was run on the Eunuch Archive (and the source of several academic articles) included all questions from the full Big Five Personality Inventory. From medical research we know that the structure of the human brain is partially set by the presence or absence of estrogen and testosterone before birth. There is also a large surge of testosterone in boys shortly after birth (which we still don't fully understand).

By the time of castration, a eunuch's brain has already been masculinized. Removing testosterone does, however, have a large impact on personality. The Big Five results on the community here demonstrate that the change is NOT in the direction of female, but off in a different direction. Eunuchs, with a male brain but lack of testosterone, are both more efficient and organized and more friendly and compassionate than intact males (on average, not necessarily true for every individual). These two trait complexes would both be highly prized in administrative settings.

It is really the rise of Islam that led to the low position that eunuchs hold in the psyche of today. Islam "forbids" castration by Moslems. This includes domestic animals as well as humans. The Moslem states still had need of eunuchs in administrative positions, but they were now all sourced from outside the realm and were all involuntary ones (of slave origin, even if they were later freed) and were supposed to be castrated by non-Moslems. Prominent families could no longer decide that court eunuch was an appropriate career goal for their sons.

Eunuchs were, however, still widely found in bureaucratic positions within the government. They were just all foreigners. For example, the court of the Abbasid caliph al-Muqtadir (908-932) had at its height 11,000 eunuchs in the palace. 7,000 of them were Black African eunuchs who mostly performed menial tasks or guarded the 4,000 women in the palace. Four thousand of the eunuchs, however, were of European origin and mostly served as government administrators. The Fatamid caliphate in Egypt at its end in 1171 may have had NO non-eunuch administrators in its central government. Most were, again, of European origin.

The European eunuchs came from various sources. Many were originally from the British Isles (primarily Ireland), captured by Vikings and sent by the northern route and through the modern Ukraine to Bagdad. A much smaller contingent were Germans, castrated in Venice and sent east in exchange for silk and spices. A treaty between Venice and the Holy Roman Empire declared that only those boys who were slaves before they entered Venice could be castrated, though the treaty does not seem to have been enforced. The majority of the eunuchs, though, were of Slavic origin and also routed through and castrated in either Venice or Kiev. The ideal eunuchs came from raids on monasteries where educated boys could be captured to serve in the Middle Eastern bureaucracies.

Over time, it became more and more difficult to obtain educated European eunuchs, though there were still a few in government administration in the Ottoman Empire up until its fall in 1904. At the end, however, it was primarily an "un-Islamic" source that provided them. Young Christian boys from the periphery of the Empire (modern Greece, Serbia, and Albania) were castrated by the palace physician at the palace. They were very few in number compared to the many Black eunuchs found in harems and palaces thoughout the Moslem realm.

It is these generally uneducated Black eunuch slaves who provide the modern image of "eunuch" in the western world.

I think that it is probably the low repute in which "eunuchs" are generally held today that has led to the attempted creation of the term "neutrois" to describe those who have been termed eunuchs for millenia.

The Italian castrati are a subject for a future post. It is clear from documents in Italian archives that many were castrated at their own request. Some even requested public assistance to pay for their castrations.

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

Thank you for your very profound answer. There first part may help me personally - I am afraid that Europe is a bit behind US in this questions but I think I just must be patient and try to find the right Doctor.

The second part ist interesting too ...

I think that it is probably the low repute in which "eunuchs" are generally held today that has led to the attempted creation of the term "neutrois" to describe those who have been termed eunuchs for millenia.

The Italian castrati are a subject for a future post. It is clear from documents in Italian archives that many were castrated at their own request. Some even requested public assistance to pay for their castrations.

I am looking forward to the third part.

This is a bit what I feel - but maybe there is an other detail: I never felt sexual attraction, most eunuchs did when they were intact (or even as eunuchs). Is this the difference to neutrois/eunuch? Asexual + Eunuch = Neutrois? Then eunuch would be the sexual orientation and people (male and female) who don't feel sexual attraction and have the orientation "eunuch" would be neutrois. Neutrois would be the intersection.

Maybe the historical view doesn't help there because the discussion is new (in this details and deepness). I am sure the phenomena is as old as mankind but not the description.

[unencumbered (imported)]

I think that it is probably the low repute in which "eunuchs" are generally held today that has led to the attempted creation of the term "neutrois" to describe those who have been termed eunuchs for millenia.

.

Thanks for the post.

Eunuchs have been the butt of jokes for a long time now. They're an easy target to make fun of since there are no eunuchs today, right?

Most males who are eunuchs for the lack of testicles will not admit to their status, for good reason.

Eunuchs can either embrace the word as their own and gain acceptance over time, or reject it to better fit in with today's society.

[daifu-orchid (imported)]

Thank you for the, as ever, learned and interesting insight.

The eunuchs of China were also numerous. It is said that essentially the Ming administration collapsed under the seer weight of eunuchs, some tens of thousands, I think.

Qing eunuchs are remembered to this day for their scheming ways, and yes, the phrase "to stink like a eunuch" is alive and well. I suspect that as they also lost a penis under far from hygienic circumstance, many had recurring urinary infections and incontinence.

But yest it is true, that many rose to high rank over the centuries, in many administrations, some even becoming admirals and generals -trades that one might equate with excessive but not absent T.

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

The historical view is intersting. But not helpful for finding out what a eunuchs gender identity may be. I am sure a lot of historical eunuchs had have absolutely and 100% male identity and were castrated by other reasons, even the voluntarily castrated. I have heard that eunuchs in old china carried around there genitalia in a small pocked because they hoped that in the next world the may be complete males again. This sounds not like an eunuch identity. People with an eunuch identity would burn the genitalia and hope to be reborn as real and natural sexless humans without the pain of ancient mutilating surgery.

I think one should not look back to the history in his point. It is interesting but misleading.

Seems to me now that there is something like a nonsexual gender identity wich is close to eunuch even if I still not know what exact this may be and how to distinguish from other nonbinary identities.

Eunuchs can either embrace the word as their own and gain acceptance over time, or reject it to better fit in with today's society.

Not necessarily. It can be carefuly redefined, modernised, not by appealing to the history of eunuchs but to the modern medicine and psychology. Therefor eunuchs should lean to the transgender community, should be open for the transition female -> sexless (eunuch implies male) and should try to detach from the body modification scene.

[raymar2020 (imported)]

i want to more correctly respond to this thread. As a eunuch , I identify as such. While outwardly male in appearance, ( I have no interest in appearing more feminine) I am incapable of procreation and therefore not male. I am a third gender. This middle ground gender I suppose should include formerly female persons who are now infertile as well, although that distinction is not often made. The general assumption is that eunuchs are exclusively formerly male. While the word eunuch does not fit those infertile females, they certainly are part of a more neutrsl gender.

All that said, to me eunuchs and those who seek true androgeny or neutrois as it seems to be called these days are not eunuchs at all, but another gender varient. These individuals are seeking to be asexual as well as non-gendered, a sort of middle ground, human, but not either binary sex or the more established eunuch status.

Over the years I have actually chatted with a couple females who desired to lose their female characteristics , choosing instead to be much less identifiable as either binary sex. There are also others who while male seek to have none of the standard identifiers of male, Ie genitals beard etc. They seek to be sexless beings and while their numbers may be small, and even by the mental health community very misunderstood, they stand out to me as another gender option.

That to me says that there are actually 4 possible genders. Male female, eunuch and neutrois. The roles , of course are pretty well spelled out, male and female regardless of sexual preference, are capable of breeding. Eunuchs,(and whatever term you choose for the female counterpart) are neuter, but still sexual beings. Lastly the neutrois are those who fit best in life by being non-sexed, and asexual. That is not to say they are without emotion and a desire for human contact, but that they only identify as human, not any of the other forms.

It is time that soctiry begin to look at the varations in humanity with acceptance and understanding.

Raymar

[Marian-Zero (imported)]

That to me says that there are actually 4 possible genders. Male female, eunuch and neutrois.

This is exact my question: Are there?

You can distinguish:

Gender Expression

Biological Sex

Attraction

Gender Identity

You can say "eunuch" and "neutrois" may have the same gender identity (neutral) but different gender expression and maybe attraction. And for me: I don't want to express myself as androgyn but neutral. This is a difference.

It is confusing ...

[janekane (imported)]

As I remember, I recognized that my life did not fit into any purely binary gender scheme before I learned to talk.

I have never found myself to quite be a boy/man nor to quite be a girl/woman in any traditional sense. Rather, I am as though an assortment of some aspects of male, some of female, some of both, and some of neither, and it has always seemed to me as though that was the way I am "supposed to be."

So, what about living as a single person or as a partner in a committed relationship? One day, back in 1974, I met a person, now my wife, with whom it seemed to me that what I now recognize as pheromones seemed to be working. That had never before happened with anyone else. After a chunk of a year, we were married.

Because my inner neurological identity is, as I experience it in terms of so-called social norms, far more traditionally female than male, I took careful note of the person who became my wife having been about as much of a tomboy as I had been a sissy.

To the person who officiated at our marriage, I had said that I found that we had compatible interests and complementary skills. So it yet seems, more than 39 years later.

If my understanding of human biology, including human biological gender diversity is sufficiently scientifically accurate, gender confusion is a social issue based on very incomplete understanding of human biology.

I have never experienced any sort of gender confusion; I have never been confused about my being an assortment of social gender role conventions.

I have what is, for me, an alternative to gender confusion, one that works decently for me, and it lurks within what I regard as existential philosophy.

My alternative to gender confusion is simply this: Whatever actually happens, as actually it happens, is always completely necessary and sufficient; if only because nothing other than what actually happens ever actually happens.

Therefore, for me, my life is always flawlessly and perfectly normal, though it may never be normal for anyone else.

What is normal for one person may not be normal for someone else; therefore, what is normal is not a property of any group of two or more people; what is normal is unique to, and for, each and every individual person.

Were I to believe that what is normal for someone else is also normal for me, it seems to me that I would be as-though striving to dive into a bottomless chasm of agonizingly hopeless despair.

Perhaps I am simply too autistic-stupid to do that?

[Riverwind (imported)]

For me, I have never felt genderless, I am a male, yes a male who has been castrated but I am still male, none of that went away. There is reasons for this, the biggest sex organ we have is our brain and that is still intact.

River

[Jhalemore (imported)]

I fit in a well known picture from

http://canterburyccq.files.wordpress.co ... ad-2_1.jpg

My:

Identity = Genderless

Expression = Gender Neutral

Biology = Male

Attraction = Asexual

Here's how it goes for me:

Identity = Two-Spirit

Expression = Gender Neutral?

Biology = Male

Attraction = Bisexual?

Yet, I have been calling myself Neutrois because I consider full castration + penectomy for my gender representation and matching with my body's desires. I am naturally Bisexual, but at the same time I don't want to have sex and I think it ruins a lot of things. My gender expression would probably be called male but if I was away from my parents, then I would appear more feminine and wear long dresses all the time but I never shave my body hair anymore nor will I choose to.