Christianity and Castration

[HongKongMary (imported)]

I did not choose to become a eunuch for religious reasons but I am interested in the religious aspect. I read https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=773828 and it seems to me that the average man's terror of castration causes him to re-interpret the scriptures to an absurd degree.

A man wrote in the Catholic forum that he wanted to be a eunuch. The response was that he is a sinful self-mutilator. Another man pointed out that Jesus said "... there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven". The response was "Whoa!! Jesus is talking about celibacy, a kind of making oneself an effective eunuch."

It seems to me that Jesus was not trying to confuse people. If he had not meant literal castration, he would have said so. After all, he also said things like "... if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell".

Surely, amputating a body part to save a life is a blessing, not a sinful mutilation. Similarly, amputating a body part to save a soul should be even more of a blessing. A eunuch must be less sinful than someone who sires abandoned children, or rapes, or sexually abuses anyone against their will. The Roman Catholic church would have been getting better press if some priests had been castrated instead of hoping that prayer alone would stop them from abusing children.

Like I said, my own desire for castration is not religious, but I would like to know what other people think about the subject.

[bobbilee (imported)]

I am a crade-to-grave Catholic who has been seeking castration for nine years. I have received the assurance of three priests that I will not enter the flames of Hell but rather the clouds of Heaven. The famous quote in Matthew: 19, 12 is well known by all priests and really 'cuts to the chase' (no pun intended). I will keep this brief as I could write a whole page about this issue. But the man who killed John Wilkes Booth in 1865 (who assassinated President Lincoln) in an old barn somewhere in Virginia was himself a self-castrated eunuch...he did not want to be tempted by prostitutes. Did he take the Bible literally? Yes, he did. Was he alone in doing so? No, he was not.

[Paolo]

We've talked about this numerous times, and Jesus has posted some information:

Re: Is this typical of a monks attitude?

While there is some dispute over the meaning of Matthew 19:12, much of the dispute is between ministers who cannot read the original language and/or who prefer not to study the history of Biblical interpretation and those Biblical scholars who not only read the original language, but also carefully study the cultural and historical context of the text.

The New Testament scholars generally agree that what is meant in the chapter is a eunuch whose testicles have been removed, not someone with testicles who is celibate, as too many non-scholars would prefer to believe. There were adequate words available to indicate celibacy. The original Greek used in the text, εὐνοῦχος, which specifically means one who has been castrated. It does not mean celibacy.

(Added note: This word means that you had surgery. You had the testicles (at least) removed. With a knife, I'd wager. Ouch!)

All of Matthew 19:12 is frequently considered to be a direct translation of the exact words of Jesus, not a paraphrase. A few Biblical scholars go further and note the following two verses:

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Some, though fortunately only a few, then argue that this signifies Jesus' approval of the castration of children! The Skoptsy sect of the Russian Orthodox Church (flourished 1721 to 1945) pointed to both this and to Revelation 14:4 to indicate that the Resurrection would not occur until there were 144,000 devout Christian eunuchs, all castrated before puberty, waiting to greet Jesus on his return. Estimates are that they surpassed that number.

There is even debate about the Ethiopian eunuch who appears in Acts 8:26-40. Too many non-scholars want to turn him into a government official who was not castrated. If you go to Google Images and search for "Ethiopian eunuch," you will find many images of him as BEARDED. Officials of the Ethiopian court were normally castrated. They certainly were if they were to approach the queen.

Another Biblical eunuch who was definitely castrated before puberty, but who generally shows up with a full beard in religious images, was the prophet Nehemiah.

It is generally accepted by Biblical scholars that Nehemiah was a genuine historical figure. He served as a eunuch in the palace of King Artaxerxes of Persia. His position is often described as "cup-bearer" with an implication that he was intact. Cup-bearers to the king were required to accompany him into the royal harem. They were invariably castrated before puberty (and would have no beard). The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible clearly states that he was a eunuch, despite the avoidance of that term in English translations.

As early Christianity became a Roman religion, the issue of castration became far more important. Roman law forbade castration, both castration of slaves and self-castration. It was a capital offense to castrate oneself! Too many devout Christian males were castrating themselves or seeking castration by others. At the First Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, not only was the Nicaean Creed developed, but the very first canon adopted by the Council was to prohibit self-castration by Christians.

The propriety of castration in Christianity is a much disputed subject. And has been since the earliest years.

[romuluso (imported)]

Funny that u bring this up as it has been on my mind a lot recently. Just last nite I was reading and watching YouTube videos about the connection between eunuchs and angels. I consider myself a spiritual person, tho I don't subscribe to a specific affiliation. A lot of my inner turmoil in deciding if castration is right for me is because in some ways I fear that God will punish me for making such a choice. My grandmother always used to tell me that in the Bible it says "do not mar the body." Don't know if that's true but it makes me wonder, would my creator be offended that I so drastically altered the way he designed me? For that reason it's hard for me to reconcile my religious beliefs with my desire for emasculation. When I was first struggling with my homosexuality, I did a lot of trying to "pray the gay away." I spent a year trying to be straight and was miserable the entire time. It even caused me to be impotent to the point where nothing aroused me. Then I met a guy who became my best friend and I fell in love with him. My erections returned and I was happy again. I realized that trying to be something that didn't feel right for me was not healthy. It wasn't good for myself or the people in my life. Why would God want that? I need to be my best self to do his will in this world and only I can determine what that is. For a long time my interest in castration and my interest in God have been seperate parts of my life. Every nite I ask to be forgiven for my sins, including these desires, if in fact they are wrong. If I ever finally do get to the point that I'm ready to go thru with this, I'll be praying hard up to the point the testicle is removed from my body and well after. In my internal discussions with the Lord, I explain that my reason for wanting to lose my testicle is not that I hate that part of me, but that the love I have for who I would be without it is stronger than the love I have for myself now. I take comfort in knowing that there are such references to eunuchs in the Bible.

[Paolo]

Look up "eunuchs in the Bible." You'll find a lot of them. You'll also find that God seems to like eunuchs. Many of the Old Testament prophets seemed to have been eunuchs, and I believe it is Isaiah that says that God really likes eunuchs who keep his laws.

I don't have a site handy, but when in doubt, try and find research on the Bible where the author is going back to the original texts.

[tugon (imported)]

Raised a Catholic I thought being a eunuch would make me more accepting of the faith I was taught. I have to report it did not help and the longer I was a eunuch the less I believed. Reading between the lines and all the Messianic saviors through the millenniums and the story that a woman was impregnated by a god reminded me of Greek mythology.

[bobbilee (imported)]

hello tugon: i am in a 'psych eval' for several months prior to finding a Urologist to nullify me...i hope i succeed. i must confess that you are one of the people i emulate on this site, in particular with your statement about letting nature take its course with regard to not taking hormones and changing into a 'third sex'...

however, i must take exception with your post referring to God's plan to bring the Catholic Church to the world vis-a-vis the 'Immaculate Conception" of Mary and His son, Jesus Christ. i don't remember any mythologies in the history of the world which resulted in 1.2 billion Catholic treating people with love. does the Goddess of Love have such a following? If truth is something that works, where in these mythologies are there priests who counsel and help the poor, the sick, etc.??? I think your comparison is apples and oranges, tugon.

[romuluso (imported)]

The Bible was written by man and can be interpreted in many different ways, much of it contradicted by modern science. I don't think the importance is in the facts but in the lessons that can be learned from it. I believe that God teaches me through my experiences and what I feel in my heart, which is why organized religion or even reading the entirety of the Bible has never felt necessary for me personally. I think you can only take from it as much as you have brought with you.

[Peter47-NL (imported)]

As far as I know has the story of the Holy Grail it's roots in ancient Persia and has esentional Christian and Gnostic elements, like the Cup, the Grail of the Last Supper and the Spear whith which Jesus side was opened while hanging on the cross. The community of the Grail was there to help and heal people. The knight Klingsor wanted to join this community, but failed at the point of purity. He castrated himself, but was rejected a second time. Now he became an opponend of the Grail Community and created in anger the Garden of Earthly Delights, which we can know by the painting of Hieronimus Bosch (c.1450-1516). I was and still am personally strongly interested in the story of the Grail and the Dutch/Netherlandish painter Bosch. The Netherlands/Low Countries are one of the stage settings of the Grail story. Lohengrin comes on a swan to help Elsa in Antwerp. Den Bosch the home town of the painter, had and has a Swan Society. The city Kleve some kilometers east, now Germany, has a Swan Castle. The swan is also a symbol of the Holy Spirit. And I'm interested in getting castrated. Am I or was I a Klingsor? What has this story to do with me?

It may be clear that we that we in our society live now in some Garden of Earthly Delights. The postings by our members are clear enough about the strugle in the Garden of Earthly Delights, there is strong longing for purity inside many. For me it is the question: Is castration the right way? I believe in the influence of lifes before, and it is possible that the spirit of Klingsor got me already or has the time still to come and that the knive has to cut my balls away? One thing is sure, there is not such thing like a right answer for all.

[HongKongMary (imported)]

The concensus, at least among people without the macho knee-jerk horror of emasculation, does seem to be that Jesus meant literal castration, not just celibacy. That makes sense. Apart from what has already been discussed, celibacy is not at all like being a eunuch. For one thing, not all eunuchs were celibate, even in ancient times. Many eunuchs were used as catamites. Besides, Jesus was obviously talking about a means of controlling sexual desire. Castration does usually reduce sexual desire, but celibacy merely frustrates it, potentially allowing it to increase to dangerous levels.

I presume that child abusers are only a small percentage of Roman Catholic priests, but it can be reasonably extrapolated that a much larger percentage of priests violate their vows by relieving themselves in less harmful ways. If any priests successfully control their desire by a miraculous response to prayer, good for them. However, if they are unsuccessful, they cannot blame God, as Jesus already told them what to do about it, and the RC Church chose to misinterpret him.

[sparkey49 (imported)]

I usually don't discuss my religious beliefs here but I will say I don't feel I am any less to God because I am a eunuch and I am a member and a deacon in a denomination that is considered more towards the conservative side and I have also served as an elder numerous people know that I am castrated including our pastor and it has never made any difference.

[gandalf (imported)]

Look up "eunuchs in the Bible." You'll find a lot of them. You'll also find that God seems to like eunuchs. Many of the Old Testament prophets seemed to have been eunuchs, and I believe it is Isaiah that says that God really likes eunuchs who keep his laws.

I don't have a site handy, but when in doubt, try and find research on the Bible where the author is going back to the original texts.

A good one is http://epistle.us/hbarticles or the epistle. A web source

[eunuchjeff (imported)]

.....

But the man who killed John Wilkes Booth in 1865 (who assassinated President Lincoln) in an old barn somewhere in Virginia was himself a self-castrated eunuch...he did not want to be tempted by prostitutes. Did he take the Bible literally? Yes, he did. Was he alone in doing so? No, he was not.

I believe Lincoln was assassinated at the Ford Theatre in Washington, DC.

[tugon (imported)]

I believe Lincoln was assassinated at the Ford Theatre in Washington, DC.

I think the point was where was John Wilkes Booth assassinated and not Lincoln since Lincoln was listed parenthetically.

Following the assassination, Booth fled on horseback to southern Maryland, eventually making his way to a farm in rural northern Virginia 12 days later, where he was tracked down. Booth's companion gave himself up, but Booth refused and was shot by Boston Corbett, a Union soldier, after the barn in which he was hiding was set ablaze. Eight other conspirators or suspects were tried and convicted, and four were hanged shortly thereafter.

[Eunuchorn (imported)]

found this...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamen ... -omission/

(http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamen ... -omission/)Mountains of ink have already been spilled rightfully condemning (http://religiondispatches.org/a-14-poin ... stian-man/) the anti-gay, transphobic Nashville Statement (https://cbmw.org/nashville-statement/) last month, but I was particularly drawn to one of its infamous affirmations/denials that made use of a New Testament passage routinely abused by gender-conformity enforcers: Matthew 19.

This is the passage where Jesus is asked about divorce, answers that it is not really acceptable, and caps his discussion by talking about castration. Yes, really. Not the way you remember it? That's probably by design.

The standard translation for Matthew 19:12 is (as usual) most accurately conveyed by the New Revised Standard Version:

For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and

there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

Let anyone accept this who can.

Yet a perusal of other translations (http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-12.htm) shows just how much many Christian translators want to avoid any notion of men "making themselves eunuchs." Any number of alternative translations have been offered, like "those who choose to live like eunuchs" (NIV), or "some choose not to marry" (NLT), or those who "became eunuchs" (NET), or who "decided to be celibate" (God's Word), or my favorite, "disabled themselves" (Weymouth).

None of these come as close as the NRSV does at capturing what the Greek actually says in the text, and yet the NRSV and its traditional wording (the same found in the King James Bible) are themselves trafficking in euphemism to avoid the uncomfortable, literal reading: men who have castrated themselves.

The Nashville signers specifically cited Matthew 19 in their manifesto while affirming "those born with a physical disorder of sex development," suggesting they are "created in the image of God and have dignity and worth equal to all other image-bearers" and "are acknowledged by our Lord Jesus in his words about 'eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb.'" This was no doubt added in an attempt to soften the language of the preceding line, which asserts that "male and female reproductive structures are integral to God's design for self-conception as male or female." Knowing that intersex individuals do exist, the signers tried to wrestle some proof-texted, cherry-picked Scripture to remind us that, of course, the Bible has thought of everything.

Except that in order support their own rigid ideologies, they intentionally omitted two-thirds of what Jesus says about eunuchs. For, if "male and female reproductive structures" (leave it to fundamentalists to come up with the worst ways to talk about genitalia) are in fact "integral to God's design for self-conception," then one has to wonder what they make of Jesus himself in essence praising self-made eunuchs as Kingdom-seekers.

The same signers love to tell us how "clear" the Bible is about these matters, insisting that clobber passages with vague and ambiguous terminology unapologetically condemn same-sex relations. They also love reading selectively from Matthew 19, mentioning Jesus's prefacing remarks about male-female creation but not the fact that he goes on to condemn divorce and, ultimately, praise self-castrators.

Yet if ever there's "clear" language in the New Testament, Matthew 19:12 would be one such case. The entirety of the eunuch discussion looks like this in the Greek. I've bolded the nouns and verbs that reference eunuchs:

εἰσὶν γὰρ εὐνοῦχοι οἵτινες ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς ἐγεννήθησαν οὕτως, καὶ εἰσὶν εὐνοῦχοι οἵτινες εὐνουχίσθησαν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ εἰσὶν εὐνοῦχοι οἵτινες εὐνούχισαν ἑαυτοὺς διὰ τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν. ὁ δυνάμενος χωρεῖν χωρείτω.

There is little question about what is going on linguistically. The only intransitive genesis of the eunuchs in Matthew 19:12 are those who are born (ἐγεννήθησαν) from their mothers' wombs, the only ones the Nashville signers want to pretend exist. But Jesus also talks about those who are not born that way, and he gives them in obvious contrast: those who are "eunuchized" by men (a passive verb with a genitive of agent) and those who "eunuchize themselves" using an active verb and a reflexive pronoun. There's no passivity in that last statement. They have done this to themselves.

So what does the verb eunuchize (εὐνουχίζω) mean? As the KJV and NRSV suggest, it means to "make a eunuch," and that means to castrate. That is how it's used in Lucian's Saturnalia (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Atext%3D2) when Cronus mentions castrating his father Ouranos, and that is the primary definition used in the most authoritative Greek-English lexicons (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Aentry%3De u%29nouxi%2Fzw), because that's how one makes a eunuch - through castration.

Of course, most conservative Christian commentators want this to be metaphorical, not literal. As in so many other areas, conservative Christians browbeat everyone with the "plain and literal" meaning when it suits their agendas, then insist we look to metaphor when it doesn't. So the 19th-century Pulpit Commentary insists (https://www.studylight.org/commentaries ... ew-19.html), "This is not to be understood of excision; for this would be a contravention of the order of nature and the good work of creation." In other words, because castration contradicts most Christians' own ideologies about sex and gender, Jesus of course couldn't possibly have been talking about castration.

But why not? In fact, castration to show religious devotion is entirely common in the ancient world. Attis, as told by the poet Catullus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.02.0003), castrated himself out of devotion to Cybele, and his cult followers did the same thereafter. The Oxford Classical Dictionary references Matthew 19:12 directly to note that the "whole of the institution (of eunuchs) created a class of pure servants of a god," because the passage is so wholly in line with the religious castration commonplace all over antiquity, including in the Near East.It also accords with many parts of the New Testament that not only speak of eschewing marriage, but also advocate a genderless Christianity (like the famous Galatians 3:28 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=372481996)), which often saw expression in the androgyne (http://www.jstor.org/stable/1061813?seq=1#), an image popular in early Christianity. For example, the depiction of Jesus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Bap ... avenna.jpg) (the photo at the top of this post) in Ravenna's Arian Baptistery is one of several (https://books.google.com/books?id=rfG1A ... us&f=false) images in early Christian art that depicts androgyny. Moreover, Jesus himself indicates that we should not soften our interpretations of the passage, because he ends his discussion of it with an acknowledgment that many will not be able to go along with it: "Let anyone accept this who can," (literally (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Aentry%3Dx wre%2Fw), anyone who is able to proceed, to advance, to go along with this).

Indeed, we are told by Eusebius that the church father Origen, often considered the most learned of the early theologians, took the verse to heart and castrated himself accordingly. Eusebius writes that Origen took the passage "more plainly" (ἁπλούστερον) and more youthfully (νεανικώτερον) than apparently Eusebius himself did, and at once calls the act immature and juvenile (ἀτελοῦς καὶ νεανικῆς), but he then also immediately describes it as the greatest sign (μέγιστον δεῖγμα) of Origen's faith (πίστεώς) and prudence (σωφροσύνης).

Eusebius's entire narrative about Origen is wrapped up with Demetrius, a contemporary bishop, who at first generally approved of Origen's enthusiasm (προθυμίαν) and sincerity of faith (τὸ γνήσιον αὐτοῦ τῆς πίστεως). However, after Christians begin to lay hands on Origen and elevate him within the church, Demetrius jealously changes course, describing the deed as "most abnormal" (ἀτοπωτάτου), and making a "terrible scandal" (δεινὴν ποιεῖται διαβολήν) about the castration among all the bishops of the world (sound familiar?).

Needless to say, in the account of Christianity's earliest historian, the condemnations of the judgmental bishop are criticized far more than Origen's castration of himself.

Let me be perfectly clear: despite routine attempts to do so, I do not consider ancient eunuchs in any way analogous to transgender or gay individuals today. That is not the point of all of this. What is, however, the point, is that a group of arch-conservative Christians, touting their "plain reading of the Bible," took it upon themselves to "define what it means to be a human being" and came away with a definition that included only biologically born males and biologically born females, with a cursory acknowledgment of people born intersex for good measure. Yet in the very chapter and verse they cite to support their gender dichotomy, we have Jesus muddying that very distinction, and "

for the sake of the kingdom of heaven"

to boot!

The Nashville statement, then, amounts to little more than the excavated mud-slinging of Demetrius's assertions about "abnormality." The signers of the statement are not interested in the myriad and complicated expressions of gender throughout the Bible, early Christianity, and human history writ large. Rather, they are like a jilted, jealous bishop, angry that anyone in the church might lay hands on someone who is "abnormal," and willing to ignore Jesus's own words to feed their hungry prejudice.

(http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamen ... -omission/)

[ylpb7508 (imported)]

found this...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamen ... -omission/

Thanks, interesting article and a excellent discussion.

[theemptyone (imported)]

It seems that a lot of people who read Matthew 19:12 can't accept the literal meaning. It's really not that hard to understand why that is. In verse 11 Jesus said that "But he said to them, Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given." (Mt 19:11 ESV). I don't worry about it. People who can't accept what verse 12 says just haven't been given the ability to do so. No big deal.

For me, this is the main reason I became a eunuch. On the morning of my surgery, I thanked God that I was one of the few who were able to accept the saying.

Now that I am a eunuch, I continue to thank God for his Word and for the option to become a eunuch.

I did not choose to become a eunuch for religious reasons but I am interested in the religious aspect. I read https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=773828 and it seems to me that the average man's terror of castration causes him to re-interpret the scriptures to an absurd degree.

A man wrote in the Catholic forum that he wanted to be a eunuch. The response was that he is a sinful self-mutilator. Another man pointed out that Jesus said "... there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven". The response was "Whoa!! Jesus is talking about celibacy, a kind of making oneself an effective eunuch."

It seems to me that Jesus was not trying to confuse people. If he had not meant literal castration, he would have said so. After all, he also said things like "... if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell".

Surely, amputating a body part to save a life is a blessing, not a sinful mutilation. Similarly, amputating a body part to save a soul should be even more of a blessing. A eunuch must be less sinful than someone who sires abandoned children, or rapes, or sexually abuses anyone against their will. The Roman Catholic church would have been getting better press if some priests had been castrated instead of hoping that prayer alone would stop them from abusing children.

Like I said, my own desire for castration is not religious, but I would like to know what other people think about the subject.