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[jameskeen05 (imported)]

I am fairly new to this Board. My name is James and I have a desire to be a smoothie. I desire full nullification. I heard about surgeons who perform this procedure in thialand but I am curious if anyone knows a surgeon in the US that will perform the procedure?

[happousai (imported)]

Tom (http://www.bmeworld.com/smooth/) was nullified by a M2F SRS surgeon in the US. But, that surgeon (like most/all M2F SRS surgeons in the US) required recommendation letters from psychologists.

If you're asking about a US surgeon who will perform nullification on you without requiring psychologist letters, such a thing seems to be difficult/impossible to find. If they exist, they would likely want to keep a low profile in order to avoid unwanted attention. You may have a chance finding them if you get a directory of all urological surgeons in your area (any good urological surgeon should be able to perform the nullification procedure, according to http://www.bmeworld.com/smooth/02_01.htm) and tell them why you want to be nullified, to try to show them that you're sincere and have thought things through. It seems like a long shot, though.

I'm thinking that having it done in Thailand isn't that bad. Given the price difference between Thailand surgeons and US surgeons, I think it's actually cheaper to have it done in Thailand, even though you have to pay airfare. Nullification doesn't require as much recovery time as M2F SRS, so you could presumably fly to Thailand, have the surgery done, and fly back one week later.

By the way, care to tell us some more about yourself, and why you want to be nullified? Curious minds want to know.

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

Well, to tell you more about myself, I am 19. My name is James and I am bisexual. I have a page at iam.bmezine.com/?JNDK I have my tongue split and smong other things I have piercings and a tattoo on my leg. I have been wanting nullo ever since my teen years. I see a thearpist and this thearpist has told me IF I ever find a surgeon to do my nullification, that he would send a letter telling them I am sane or a phone call telling them the same and much more. From what I understood, It cost 5000 to get it done in thialand. I know smooth from IAM. Love his page! On another note, I also see a thearpist who also said he is willing to help me become a nullo. He says I am "Sane enough to make a decision of my own."

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

I want nullification ever since I was a young teenager. It first started out with me having a fixation about being castrated and over time I started to want my penis gone. I am an impotent man, I use to have sex earlier in life when I was 15, 16. But I became impotent due to an injury I suffered to my penis. I have three options.....live with it and go on.......get a penis implant....or go with my true dreams and get it all removed. By some luck I happend to suffer a penis injury and be impotent just when my dreams of being a nullo peaked as high as they could go. I am a simple man and I dont ask for much...... I know what I want and I definatly want this. Nullification appeals to me, the smooth surface I find attractive and appealing. I wanted it since I was around 13-14. I read up on it, I studied it the best I could and I spoke to people who had it done.

I know Im very young to be wanting this....but I truly have a desire for it.

[Paolo]

Well, it's a bit late (3rd post) but welcome to the zoo.

I'm sure you'll find some advice here and people willing to advise you on your desires.

[happousai (imported)]

>

I know Im very young to be wanting this....but I truly have a desire for it.

I'm 20, and I want to be nullified too. I don't like the constant desire for sex caused by testosterone. Erections feel tight and uncomfortable to me, and are embarassing if they occur while I am in public; they also make it difficcult to urinate when I first get up in the morning. Nocturnal emissions are gross. I despise body hair.

>

Nullification appeals to me, the smooth surface I find attractive and appealing.

I, too find the smooth surface attractive and appealing.

>

From what I understood, It cost 5000 to get it done in thialand.

That sounds about right. It costs as much as $10,000 to get it done in the US, though...

As for me, I think I might eventually go to Thailand and get nullified, after (1) I finish my education, and (2) I figure out how to deal with my parents about this (I live with them, so if I took off to Thailand for a week they would know that I went). Doing it in Thailand seems simpler overall, since otherwise I would presumably have to see a therapist for months.

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

I hope to go to thailand too! I been emailing one clinic in thailand, they've been very helpful. Im still trying to figure out the airfare it cost to go from USA to thailand! The person of the clinic I was corresponding with was very informative. They told me prices of all their procedures. If you want I could quote the prices on here.

[happousai (imported)]

The person of the clinic I was corresponding with was very informative. They told me prices of all their procedures. If you want I could quote the prices on here.

Sure, I'd be interested in reading those.

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

Here is what was sent to me:

Nullification ('Bilateral orchiectomy'

and removal of the scrotum and 'penectomy')

under spinal block or general anaesthesia. $2.200 (90.000 Baht)

plus 2/3 days stay in hospital

The above with relocation of the pee-hole $2.800 (115.000 Baht)

We would require a letter from a psychiatrist who supports your request If you are unable to gain such a letter we could carry out our own assessment which entails a visit to a Psychiatrist on the mainland about 1/2 day.

[happousai (imported)]

Here is what was sent to me:

Nullification ('Bilateral orchiectomy'

and removal of the scrotum and 'penectomy')

under spinal block or general anaesthesia. $2.200 (90.000 Baht)

plus 2/3 days stay in hospital

The above with relocation of the pee-hole $2.800 (115.000 Baht)

We would require a letter from a psychiatrist who supports your request If you are unable to gain such a letter we could carry out our own assessment which entails a visit to a Psychiatrist on the mainland about 1/2 day.

A quick search on Travelocity.com suggests that round-trip airfare would cost about $800.

I wonder...

(1) Whether the 2/3 days stay in the hospital is included in the cost quoted above

(2) How much the psychiatrist visit on the mainland would cost

(3) What happens if the psychiatrist says no?

Oh, which site was the above from? Is it http://www.sexchangeasia.com/ ?

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

Yup, Thats the site. I think the hospital stay is included in with the surgery. If it wasnt, I assume they would have mentioned otherwise. That site is also connected to this site www.grsinfo.com/index.html This is also the samui clinic. Well if you go over there without a letter then you could try to get one through them, its a chance you take thou if they reject you. I know I can get a letter, you can either try and get a letter here in the USA or over there. Either way I wish you luck. I been thinking about taking a loan out of the bank to fly over there get it done, come back. I havent yet thou because I will have to find a way to pay it all back. Soo Im working on that solution. But you could do that if you have good credit. Borrow a large sum from the bank, tell them its for a small buisness. But we all know it isnt. I have the surgeons number, he gave it to me through email.....I can post it here or give it to you via email?

[Sherry (imported)]

Here is what was sent to me:

Nullification ('Bilateral orchiectomy'

and removal of the scrotum and 'penectomy')

under spinal block or general anaesthesia. $2.200 (90.000 Baht)

plus 2/3 days stay in hospital

The above with relocation of the pee-hole $2.800 (115.000 Baht)

We would require a letter from a psychiatrist who supports your request If you are unable to gain such a letter we could carry out our own assessment which entails a visit to a Psychiatrist on the mainland about 1/2 day.

Do you know if that was for a simple penectomy (removal of only the portion of penis outside the body) or a radical penectomy (removal of entire penis including the subsurface ligaments). I will seek the radical penectomy.

I am transgendered, but I seek to remove the penis rather than trying to reconstruct a vagina from it. Since I already have a diagnosis of transsexualism, have already been castrated, been on estrogen for more than a year, and just started my social transition, I wonder if a therapist letter for SRS would qualify for this procedure? As of the end of this year, I will already have been legally and socially Sherry for a full year, and it will take me longer than that to get the funds for this surgery anyway, so I'm sure I could get a therapist letter recommending SRS and present this to the Samui Clinic when I seek penectomy.

Sherry Joanne

[Kelly_2 (imported)]

Do you know if that was for a simple penectomy (removal of only the portion of penis outside the body) or a radical penectomy (removal of entire penis including the subsurface ligaments). I will seek the radical penectomy.

I am transgendered, but I seek to remove the penis rather than trying to reconstruct a vagina from it. Since I already have a diagnosis of transsexualism, have already been castrated, been on estrogen for more than a year, and just started my social transition, I wonder if a therapist letter for SRS would qualify for this procedure? As of the end of this year, I will already have been legally and socially Sherry for a full year, and it will take me longer than that to get the funds for this surgery anyway, so I'm sure I could get a therapist letter recommending SRS and present this to the Samui Clinic when I seek penectomy.

Sherry Joanne

Hello, Sherry! Hugs!!

You have a very good question regarding what is removed. There is corpus spongiosum past the shaft, and if it is not removed, then it can enlarge during arousal. For instance, here is an example of a person who was born male, but had penectomy as part of her SRS:

http://www.annelawrence.com/arousal.html

Note the effect of the engorgement of the tissue during arousal (and if you think that castration and penectomy prevent arousal, think again--all post-op TS women have had these procedures but can generally get as hot as natal women). This engorgement can occur with a simple penectomy, too.

The Samui Clinic seems ideal for penectomy--they certainly see a need for this and other procedures. I have corresponded with Graham Pelever (the clinic's administrator) a few times a year ago or so, when he wished to post in my SRS group. I felt that he is doing a great service, and allowed it. His clinic is one of the only that openly discuss penectomy. A page is below:

http://www.grsinfo.com/3.html

Where removal of the penis is involved this requires significantly greater skills than the removal of the testes. Advanced techniques of nullfication include severing the 'suspensory ligaments' to drop the penis before amputating it, also to produce a urinary outlet lower down for convenience. A new urinary opening may be made between the root of the penis and the anus, this involves advanced incision and suturing skills.

Such an opening reduces the need to remove more of the penis itself to lower the urinary opening for convenience. During the surgery a catheter is placed in the urethra, where it remains during post-op and healing. A tiny (or large, depending on the exact style of the operation) pee hole remains.

I would think that a letter from a therapist stating that you are sane enough to do this should suffice. If you don't even have that, you can, as has already been seen, have a psychologist used by the clinic in Thailand evaluate you.

Indeed, I had eunuch to female surgery in Thailand with no "letters" from US pshrinks. I was evaluated by their psychologist, Dr. Kim, who accepted me for surgery, and then had an in-person interview at the hospital by Dr. Suporn and Aoi. All agreed that I was an acceptable candidate for genital surgery.

Indeed, the present requirements, which can be seen by going to:

http://srs-thailand.com/SRS.html

and scrolling down, include the option:

For consideration under Condition B (young adult cases), the applicant should:

1. be at least age 18

2. have only gender identity disorder, gender dysphoria, or transsexualism

3. have had treatment with antiandrogens or/and hormones for at least 6 months

4. have lived full-time in the cross-gender role for at least 6 months (evidenced by Identification Documents)

He just asks that you be an adult, sane, be on HRT, and live as a woman--no letters required for this option.

While I have you on Suporn's SRS page, scroll all of the way down, and you will see eight pictures of some of his post-op's kitties. The third one from the left:

http://srs-thailand.com/SRS_depth_2001_10_16.jpg

is me!--I'm a Suporn poster girl.

Back to the subject, I think that it is doable. A penectomy is not unheard of, and several people have had them done (besides the hundreds of thousands of hijra). I think that nullification is a viable option. Some people don't like the male or female or in-between set of plumbing with which they were born and change it. I changed mine, and am much happier because of it.

Thailand seems to be an excellent choice. Also realize that US surgeons can and have done this. Penile cancer exists, and is common enough to cause a number of penectomy procedures to be performed in the US each year. A sane person who wishes this should, and in cases, do have this done here (at a substantially higher price than Thailand).

I wish everybody the best!

Love 'n hugs,

Kelly

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

Me personally, I think Ill seek out the surgeon in Thailand. I wonder how much money one would need overall to cover the trip and such. I know the nullification with re-location of the pee hole is 5000 dollars, lets say its 800 dollars roundtrip there from the US, then you have to worry about transportation and such.

[Losethem (imported)]

James--

It sounds like you have a valuable resource in Kelly. She has been to the doctor over in Thailand and can probably answer many of your questions.

Just like myself, she is an archive regular.

Good luck with your change!

[Paolo]

Kelly is invaluable.

Listen closely to her.

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

I hope to learn a lot from her Also, I sent a private message to you Kelly_2

[JesusA]

JamesKeen,

Welcome to the Archive. It's clear that you've carefully considered your position and you've asked what are, of course, critical questions. You've received valuable help and advice from some of the active members, and your responses show that you're making good use of the information. I'd like to add some additional points for you to consider along the way.

What I'm asking you to consider will take a little time, but you're still very young and certainly have the time. I can assure you, as someone old enough to be your grandfather, that what looks like a long stretch of time extending into the future will seem like the blink of an eye once you've past it. Take the time to make certain that you've covered ALL of the bases before taking irrevokable action.

First of all, you need to realize that the members of the Archive include those who have made their decision and are happy with it, those considering action, and a host of people who fantasize about it. Those who made the decision and are UNhappy are unlikely to be here. It is good that you have been in contact with Tomas. He made his decision for good, rational, well thought through reasons. Years later he is very happy about it. There are others on the Archive who have been nullified, for a variety of reasons. At least one was even younger than you and is happy still about his decision. Make contact with as many of them as you can and seek their advice and counsel. They can provide information before surgery and support afterward.

There are others, however, who have no voice on the Archive. Those who regretted their decision once it was too late. I know of three such people who were not much older than you when they had simple castrations - all were in their early 20s and thought that they had absolutely rational reasons, though they didn't seek much outside counsel or support. Two have since committed suicide as a result of their regrets and depression. The third came far too close to successfully commiting suicide. YOU are far too valuable to take any action until you've thought through everything and have established the support base that you will need even if your decision is the absolutely right one and you go ahead.

I would strongly urge you to find a GOOD psychological counselor to work with - not necessarily a psychiatrist, but someone who is trained to draw out of you the important questions and help you to find the proper answers for YOU. You may need to search a bit to find someone who will take your serious questions very seriously. The first one you approach is equally likely to react in horror and be of no use whatsoever. It will take a few sessions to make certain that you have asked yourself every question that is really important and that you have carefully thought through to the right answers for you. Having a counselor on board may also be critical for the next step.

Next you need to have a well-established support network before you have your surgery. ANY surgery is likely to be followed by depression - even minor surgery to remove a diseased organ. Depression is a common result even when the surgery is medically required and has the full support of everyone involved. The more major the surgery the more likely the depression and the more severe it is likely to be. You need to have people ready to help you to work through it. Your counselor will be an important member of the team. He will understand the background to your decision and will have the skills necessary to help you.

You also need to have close friends and family you can rely on. Have you told those closest to you of what you are planning? I hope you don't plan on leaning over to your mother at Easter dinner and saying: "Guess what I did last month...." Certainly not everyone needs to know, but you need a handful of people who are prepared in advance. They don't even need to approve of your decision, just not be too shocked afterwards and be prepared to help you when you WILL need someone to talk with.

The surgery will have permanent medical consequences. Listen to Andrew. He is seriously concerned about the health consequences and can help you to prepare for what you will need to do for the rest of your life. Many people are chemically dependant - diabetics, for example - and you will become one. You will need to be concerned about an exercise regime, ample calcium intake, and a host of other things that Andrew can prepare you for. You don't want it to come as a surprise.

AND, keep asking questions here. There a number of very fine and helpful people on the Archive who will try to answer anything you bring to us.

Best wishes on coming to a carefully considered decision that is the right one for you.

Jesus

[A-1 (imported)]

Just a bit of advice.

We never know what the future holds in our lives.

Sometimes our lives take remarkable courses that leave us breathless and at other times regretful.

So, hedge your bet against your deciision and make a few deposits in a friendly, reputable sperm bank.

You may end up an old Lesbian but still be able to father children...artificially, that is.

It may seem stupid but you do not have anything to lose...er...make that you won't have anything to lose...

A-1

[Paolo]

Well, that was surprisingly touching, A-1.

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

I appreciate the help and support I am getting here. I see a psychiatrist and have for 2 years now. We speak about my plans of nullification. His first response was "Why?" He said he wanted to study the core of it and see if I had a gender disorder. Soo 6 months later He came to the conclusion that I didnt have a gender ssue, that I simply just wanted my genitals removed. He even told me in a joking manner, "You are as normal as they come." He even went as far as to say he would write me up a letter to take to a surgeon when I go in for nullification. He did soo only after we spoke about it for months on end. We still speak about it. He suggested I tell my parents. Now my parents have supported my past decisions. When I got my tongue split, they supported me, when I get pierced, tattooed they supported me. But nullification.....I wasnt soo sure on. Let me give you a little more background on me.....I cant have kids because I am sterile. Something is wrong with my sperm. I learned that when I was 14. It was emotional to get over it and I still deal with it today. I also take anti-depressants. Anyway, back on my parents, I love my father and mother. I decided to tell my mother first. It was 11:30pm at night. My dad was asleep and me and my mom were discussing how I couldnt have kids. I then said "Mother......I been thinking of doing something....I been thinking of going nullo." She asked "What is nullo?" I told her it was removal of the genitals!

She was shocked and it bothered her deeply. She didnt want to talk about it. She kept asking me why. I told her I have my reasons and I told her ever since I was a young boy I would think of being smooth down there with no genitals. On the 5thj day she came around and we spoke about it for 3 hours. She said "You're 19....I cant stop you from doing it.....if you get it done, Ill still love you James. You are my son. My only son." We both were in tears. Now it was time to tell my dad, I waited a week or soo later.....then I told him. He was angry "James You're a man, why would a man do that?" He went on to say " I question your sanity son, Why in the hell would you even consider that?" After much talk he said if I ever got it done dont tell him, what he doesnt know cant hurt him he said. It was very emotional. I have my mothers support and my sister wasnt shocked, because she saw me get my tongue split. Soo she supported me. I told some of my friends and they called me crazy and they think Im joking. But if I get it done, Ill just let it rest and not mention it.

I spoke to Tom a few times on IAM. His nullification was done in 88. He has helped me out a great deal. As we speak Im currently saving up my money for my trip to thailand for the procedure. It could take up to a year and a half before I get all the money I need. I been thinking of becoming nullo for sometime. I even Shave my pubic hair off to see the smooth surface above the penis and pretend I am a smoothie.

[JesusA]

I was hoping that you would prove as rational and clear-thinking as you originally seemed. It sounds as if you are taking all of the proper steps. You have a solid professional to help with the depression that is likely to come as part of any major surgery and as a part of the hormonal changes that your body will be going through. You have the support of your mother and your sister. A couple of friends would be good, if possible.

Make certain that you are ready for the health needs that you will have.

Keep exploring all possible questions to make certain that everything is answered in advance, and good luck with all of it.

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

Thank you Jesus, I really appreciate your input and help. I still have much to learn.

[A-1 (imported)]

I even Shave my pubic hair off to see the smooth surface above the penis and pretend I am a smoothie.

Well, the shaving is not so unusual. It sure makes oral sex a lot better. Maybe you should go out and get a little.

You know, like a last request for the condemned.

Ya know, boy, once they cut that thing off, it will never grow back.

A-1

[jameskeen05 (imported)]

I know it will not grow back. I thought about it hard and long. I been wanting this since I was a young teen. Im taking my time thou, I spoke to my doctor and he is willing to give me a prescription to testosterone patches call adroderm I believe. Im thinking about and for the record Im giving myself more time to think about it.