Is it really true that we need hormones?

[Sileta11 (imported)]

I have no testicles and all the doctors tell me that they do not recommend me to be without hormones, but they don't fit me well.

My Doubt is:

1- Why did the "castrati" live more than 70 years without hormones?

2- Why did some of the Eunuchs of the past live to be over 100 years old?

I've been on hormones for a week and I don't want to go back What do you think? Are the health problems from not taking hormones real?

[fhunter]

I have no testicles and all the doctors tell me that they do not recommend me to be without hormones, but they don't fit me well.

My Doubt is:

1- Why did the "castrati" live more than 70 years without hormones?

2- Why did some of the Eunuchs of the past live to be over 100 years old?

I've been on hormones for a week and I don't want to go back What do you think? Are the health problems from not taking hormones real?

First - most of the castrati were castrated before puberty, which seriously affects the outcome re: hormones and requirements for them. Our Jesus had posted, somewhere on the forum some account about relatively modern prepubertal eunuchs and hormones, I think (but I do not remember it exactly).

Second - there are herbal estrogen sources, which were actually known at the time, and that could be used.

Main health problems - bone health (osteoporosis IS real).

[JesusA]

There is finally a well-controlled medical study on the bone-protection use of estrogen for castrated men. The study divided a group of men on chemical castration for prostate cancer into two groups: one receiving a placebo and the other receiving 0.9 mg of 0.1% estradiol gel daily. There was significant bone-protection for those on estradiol. Osteoporosis is the most serious side effect of castration. Low dose estrogen may be the best protective course of action.

_______

Russell, Nicholas et al. (2022). Effects of estradiol on bone in men undergoing androgen deprivation therapy: a randomized placebo-controlled trial. European Journal of Endocrinology, Volume 187, Issue 2, Aug 2022, Pages 241-256, https://doi.org/10.1530/EJE-22-0227

[WheelyCurious]

I have no testicles and all the doctors tell me that they do not recommend me to be without hormones, but they don't fit me well.

My Doubt is:

1- Why did the "castrati" live more than 70 years without hormones?

2- Why did some of the Eunuchs of the past live to be over 100 years old?

I've been on hormones for a week and I don't want to go back What do you think? Are the health problems from not taking hormones real?

It is worth noting that bone health is one of the big problems, but that load bearing exercise is somewhat preventative.

Back in the "not so good old days" when we didn't have all the comforts and technology of modern life, it took a LOT of exercise just to do the typical activities of daily living... A lot of the historical eunuchs were slaves which meant they got an extra heavy dose of the labor duties...

In addition, while there were definitely issues with the diet in a lot of history, one can make a case that historical food was probably healthier overall - there was no 'fast food', no 'junk food' and what there was to eat was minimally processed, natural, etc. Not to mention 100% "Organic".....

In the non-fiction article area there is at least one reference to an archeological dig that found the graves of some of the historical Chinese eunuchs, and they showed definite signs of severe osteoporosis, specifically the kyphosis (sp?) or hunch back we often see today in very elderly women.

What sort of hormones does the doctor have you on? A lot of the time they want to give us replacement testosterone, which seems to me a questionable choice since a lot of us wanted to get in order to get rid of it... Using Estrogen instead provides the same health benefits, without the issues of T, but has some arguably undesirable side effects like boob growth...

There are also "selective estrogen replacement modifiers" or SERM's that are supposed to provide the estrogen health benefits, without the boob growth, but they supposedly have an increased risk of blood clots....

Ideally you should be dealing with a doctor that has both endocrinology chops, and experience in working with TG patients for any hormone related stuff. You need to have a discussion about what you desire in results, with a specific objective of finding the right regimen that will provide the needed health protection while giving you the emotional results that you want.

WheelyCurious

[grapesoda19 (imported)]

There is finally a well-controlled medical study on the bone-protection use of estrogen for castrated men. The study divided a group of men on chemical castration for prostate cancer into two groups: one receiving a placebo and the other receiving 0.9 mg of 0.1% estradiol gel daily. There was significant bone-protection for those on estradiol. Osteoporosis is the most serious side effect of castration. Low dose estrogen may be the best protective course of action.

A (potentially dumb) question: Can someone take both T and E? Cause my plans are, after my nullification, to continue on the same level of Testosterone that I'm at now. As of last Friday (when I had my cholesterol bloodwork), my T was at 612ng/dL and my E was 34.7pg/mL. T was dead center perfect, E is mid-range high, but still within the normal range.

So, could I be on 600ng/dL of T and 25pg/mL of E and not have to worry about any bone or boob issues (I got enough problems with the latter due to gynecomastia, which I plan on dealing with)?

[Sileta11 (imported)]

Thank you very much for the answers.

I have used estrogen (in society they think I am a girl).

The only thing I don't like about not having testicles is hormone therapy.

I had a bone density test 2 years ago and it came out fine, but I don't know now...

Estrogen hormone therapy has many side effects.

[Hash (imported)]

The danger of not using hormones is depression and osteoporosis. Men (castrati) who were castrated at a young age did not have the "harmful" testosterone effects to change them physically and mentally, they were more like women and women typically live longer. Same with some eunuchs living over 100 years old.

[Bullseye (imported)]

I was born with no balls. I was started on HRT when I was 13, which is when I learned I didn't have balls. A little background in a nutshell no details. I am an orphan. I was raised in foster homes, one of which was ok. The last one was not good. Some bad things happened, and I ran away. About 2 weeks maybe 3, don't remember. after I turned 14, I put everything I owned in a backpack and about 3 in the morning I snuck out. So, I have been on my own since I was 14. And of course, at that point the HRT

ceased and I have not had any since. I don't have depression. I have never gained any weight and I am happy. My life is good. Osteoporosis I know is a threat. My bone density now is fine. I exercise, don't smoke, don't drink, eat healthy and get a good

amount of calcium and vitamin D. I have to watch BMD and do DXA test at least yearly. As far as life span, I don't think I want to be 100. I'm not sure how valid that is. I have also read that eunuchs never go bald or grey. I don't think I believe that either.

[Valery_V (imported)]

I was born with no balls. I was started on HRT when I was 13, which is when I learned I didn't have balls. A little background in a nutshell no details. I am an orphan. I was raised in foster homes, one of which was ok. The last one was not good. Some bad things happened, and I ran away. About 2 weeks maybe 3, don't remember. after I turned 14, I put everything I owned in a backpack and about 3 in the morning I snuck out. So, I have been on my own since I was 14. And of course, at that point the HRT

ceased and I have not had any since. I don't have depression. I have never gained any weight and I am happy. My life is good. Osteoporosis I know is a threat. My bone density now is fine. I exercise, don't smoke, don't drink, eat healthy and get a good

amount of calcium and vitamin D. I have to watch BMD and do DXA test at least yearly. As far as life span, I don't think I want to be 100. I'm not sure how valid that is. I have also read that eunuchs never go bald or grey. I don't think I believe that either.

I can repeat some of your statements in relation to myself:

"

I don't have depression. I have never gained any weight and I am happy. My life is good. I exercise, don't smoke, don't drink, eat healthy and get a good amount of calcium and vitamin D.

"

But I must add that it is desirable for a healthy organism to have its own hormones, which are produced by itself.

By the way, I'm not going bald, but I'm graying and sometimes I ask the hairdresser to dye my hair .

[Sileta11 (imported)]

Can taking vitamins of calcium and vitamin D be a substitute for hormones?

[kristoff]

Can taking vitamins of calcium and vitamin D be a substitute for hormones?

Basically stated, NO they cannot.

[wanasoso2]

It's a no no. Vitamins although essential for a good health had a complete different way of action in our body. First they are part of our natural food diet and if you think of ingestion of hormones like in some HRT treatment it must be seen as a medical intervention and not the normal natural diet which is composed of food where some are rich in vitamins. To help some possible deficiency in our plates it's current to take vitamins supplements.

Now at the level of action, vitamins usually work together with proteins more specifically with enzymes being active in the "work" that this enzyme has to do. At this level of action they may have various actions, each vitamins has it's own specific. Has an example I recall from my biochemistry study is the synthesis of the amino acid proline which is not found in the diet. Necessarily we have to produce it from a precursor and to accomplish this work the enzyme doing the job needs vitamin C. Which is the reason why when people don't have access to fresh fruit or a supplement of Vit C they can develop scurvy.

On the other hand, hormones are produced by our gonads, testicules for male and ovary for female and have direct intervention on various cells in different part of the body. Their actions are not like the vitamins, they do not help or support biochemical reactions. They are signaling molecules, fixing themselves to specific receptors at the surface of cells which triger specific biochemical reaction in the cells that will change some pathway of protein synthesis specific to the signal received. As an exemple the clitoris and the penis which are bassically the same structural origin. At the foetus level, we all start as female, (that is why male as nipples) but when testosterone appears in the development (I think is about the 13th week ???), the original clitoris enlarge to become the small penis we have at our birth. Becomming a teenager, with more T the penis enlarge again and other sexual fonction starts. In all those complex modification fo the body, basically trigered by hormones the vitamins has no power to intervene, it's simply not their job.

[Valery_V (imported)]

I am not an expert and can only judge based on my own experience.

Since I lead a healthy lifestyle, I have no bad habits, I eat normally, everything is more or less fine with me.

Testosterone even after ... is produced by the adrenal glands (albeit in smaller quantities).

Maybe my body, continuing to develop, was able to adapt?

[WheelyCurious]

Can taking vitamins of calcium and vitamin D be a substitute for hormones?

They are not a substitute, but given that eunuchs have a tendency towards bone health issues, which hormones help prevent but don't eliminate, it is a good idea to make sure that you get plenty of these in your diet . Supplements are arguably not as good as what you get in appropriate foods, but are a sure fire way of knowing what you are getting.

WheelyCurious

[wanasoso2]

Wheely curious made and excellent point here. The testosterone is important to avoir osteoporosis but cannot do the job only by itself. In the process the body need

a good amount of calcium and

indeed vitamin D in part of that process too and getting enough of those "molecules" is important.

[sftineun (imported)]

Can taking vitamins of calcium and vitamin D be a substitute for hormones?

Definitely NO. Calcium and Vitamin D is only part of the treatment to slow osteoporosis. But testosterone or estrogen is needed as well.

[Sileta11 (imported)]

Well, I will have no choice but to go back to estrogen

I still don't understand why many eunuchs were centenarians if they didn't take hormones

[Bullseye (imported)]

I hope I didn't mislead about calcium and vitamin D. Calcium and vitamin D, or any other vitamin, are not a substitute for testosterone and I was not implying that. Eunuchs without hormone are more susceptible to osteoporosis and I was just expressing my use of vitamins for my own health. If I mislead, I apologize, it was not my intent.

[erikboy (imported)]

It is well known that sex hormones play important role in bone health. Reading this threads may make you think that hormones are unavoidable. I think yes and no. It is not that if you do not take any hormones your bones will fall apart. So, people have lived without sex hormones and without breaking their bones. There are many aspects. First there is a genetic aspect. Some have naturally very strong bones. Some have not. See, only few of these postmenopausal women have real bone problems, not all of them. Yes bone density is reduced in all of them, but not to a catastrophic levels. Apart of hormones, there is another very important factor - physical activity. It is well known fact that minerals leave bones, if bones are not in use. And it happens rather quickly, like people in space have very serious bone density problems, and they fight it with physical activity. Becoming an eunuch usually reduces person physical activity, which adds to the bone problem. I think there is alternative for people who like to keep their hormone levels at castrate. And of course. with no hormones, it is best to monitor your bone health. To be able to react at the right time. Either with hormones or whatever else is possible.

[DeaconBlues (imported)]

It is well known that sex hormones play important role in bone health. Reading this .... Becoming an eunuch usually reduces person physical activity, which adds to the bone problem. I think there is alternative for people who like to keep their hormone levels at castrate. And of course. with no hormones, it is best to monitor your bone health. To be able to react at the right time. Either with hormones or whatever else is possible.

I so completely agree with this post. Many years ago I was talking with a doctor about the longevity of eunuchs versus intact males, typically eunuchs in any society outlive the intact males by a considerable number of years and I mentioned the eunuchs currently living in India (the "Hijra") who are somewhat ostracized, they often make their living by dancing at weddings and other celebrations. He pointed out that it is possible that their being eunuchs contributed to their longevity, but it was entirely MORE probable that making their living by dancing and such was contributing more to their longevity. It is well known that and understood that physical activity in moderation is clearly a great contribution to health and longevity. So, when people look at any eunuchs, they often focus only on the fact that they castrated and too much they completely ignore all other aspects. The "take away" bit of wisdom here is that castration may very well increase the length of life, but that benefit could also be completely negated by other unhealthy things (sedentary lifestyle, smoking, drinking, etc) and the eunuchs of India might be living longer mostly because of a healthier lifestyle.

On the subject of osteo perosis and bone density and such, I am not at all surprised that most doctors want to prescribe all sorts of new drugs to solve the problem, after all, that is what they do for a living, but the somewhat unpleasant and ordinary prescription of "exercise and live a healthy lifestyle" is just too too too mundane and it does not make anyone (except the patient) richer yet that could very well be more effective than the latest (most expensive) drug at keeping you healthy.

[WheelyCurious]

Well, I will have no choice but to go back to estrogen

I still don't understand why many eunuchs were centenarians if they didn't take hormones

There are some issues that males are more subject to than females, which is why you see females living longer currently - castration especially pre-puberty, possibly as late as the 30's, less so later avoids many of them....

Also bone health is impacted by physical activity - and just the basic functions of staying alive before the industrial revolution took a LOT more physical activity when we didn't have all the modern conveniences... A few other factors, I'm not sure how much they played into it, but there would have been an inherent filtering for healthier sorts just by who SURVIVED the surgery w/o modern infection control, and surgical techniques.

I also suspect that there is a certain amount of reporting bias in that the eunuchs we have records about will be the "upper class" ones that were important enough to have something written about them, and that presumably means they had the 'better things in life' like better diets, healthier living conditions, better medical care (such as it was) etc. I don't think we have much data on the lower grade slaves / harem guards / etc. that probably had lifespans closer to the average non chopped folks....

So no question that SOME historical eunuchs had far longer lives than average, but I suspect that the records are seriously skewed in their favor and don't do a good job of reflecting reality...

WheelyCurious

[wanasoso2]

I completely agree with the two uper posts from erikboy and DeaconBlues. I my earlyer post I mentionned the basic activity of T for healty bones but it is true that, as it was said, you won't fall apart without it and the consequences of living without sex hormone is different for each individual. As an exemple my wife menopaused from more than ten years never took replacement hormones and she is monitoring the quality of her bones with her doctor. With a quite good program of exercise and Calcium supplements she's stable and recently even gain a bit of strenght. Only very hasardous sport like skating should be avoided.

[WheelyCurious]

I completely agree with the two uper posts from erikboy and DeaconBlues. I my earlyer post I mentionned the basic activity of T for healty bones but it is true that, as it was said, you won't fall apart without it and the consequences of living without sex hormone is different for each individual. As an exemple my wife menopaused from more than ten years never took replacement hormones and she is monitoring the quality of her bones with her doctor. With a quite good program of exercise and Calcium supplements she's stable and recently even gain a bit of strenght. Only very hasardous sport like skating should be avoided.

I agree Wanasoso although I'm definitely on the side of encouraging use of T or E rather than going 'hormone free'... However on the flip side, it is worth noting that 'worst case' osteoporosis can leave bones so fragile that you can get fractures just from sitting, or so my doc claims...

Because I am already at risk for bone health issues in my hips and legs because of my SCI, it was the biggest challenge I had in convincing the doc to OK even starting chemical castration. I had to make a definite agreement that I'd do T or E and plan to be on one of them for life. Same thing in my recent shrink appointment before she'd agree to do the surgery letter, and I expect it will keep popping up at every doctor appointment for as long as I live...

WheelyCurious

[wanasoso2]

I agree also with you WheelyCurious that in a situation with higher risk for bone health issues you have to work that out on the safe side and give the Ca a hand with the hormone of your choice. Personnaly if one of these days I'll have to choose I think I would go on the E side. After all those years living on the T wiht presure and the evorwelming sexual desire it would be nice to be human in different way.

[Lenkusov (imported)]

I recently had a NO-HRT baseline blood test done and, for me at least, I'm medically fine to be clear of hormones basically indefinitely. I've been a eunuch for north of a year now and apparently things have adjusted well, cause my levels on HRT bloodwork have always ended up higher than normal for my weight and dosage and after one test came back alarmingly high, I went off for 2 months (with no ill effects - not tired, same libido, no hot flashes, etc) and got a baseline reading of approximately the same E and T levels as a 35y/o woman. Definitely gives me peace of mind with how my state's going, politically, wrt trans stuff...