How did ancient eunuchs deal with low testosterone medical consequences?

[Croctopus (imported)]

Or did all the forbidden city eunuchs and castrati have osteoporosis?

[Hisgoodson (imported)]

Like everything and everyone else during their respective eras, they just "dealt." We speak with 20th/21st shortsightedness and arrogance. People just made due, just like they didn't have television, insurance, medical care, plumbing, or most days, even a decent meal to eat.

Many eunuchs (stereotyping now) were made so against their will.

While there was naturopathy, there was no pharma.

Lives were short.

Lives were "cheaper" than they were short.

Nobody really cared about anyone else's opinions, feelings, or micro aggressions.

If you were sick, short, fat, able, disabled, inflatable, gay, straight, purple, green, healthy, sick, whatever - it was on you to figure it out and get on with it. Whiners, complainers, and refuseniks were outcasts for being a drain and undesirable distraction.

Given where we've collectively ended up, we could use a return to that state for a generation or two. Remind us of the concepts of gratitude, teamwork, and contribution...

[WheelyFixed]

There is at least some archeological / forensics evidence (from Chinese Eunuch burial sites) that some DID show signs of osteoporosis... IIRC there is a paper on this in the non-fiction area.

However it is also worth noting that pre-modern-technology life was considerably more strenuous than it is today, even for the 'rich and privileged' and even more so for the slaves and other low on the totem pole folks... Bone loading and exercise is a major factor in not getting bone loss, and for other of the 'medical consequences' of being castrated... Not to mention the other factors that Hisgoodson rightly mentions.

As I recollect that paper on the Chinese eunuchs they said that the osteoporosis was mostly present in the neck and upper back, areas which don't get as much loading just because of their location... We see this same thing to day in the "Grandma Hunchback" that many elderly ladies have. I believe there has also been a tendency in paintings and descriptions of older eunuchs to show them w/ the same sort of hunched backs...

But most wouldn't be living long enough to really have this as a problem... While we see all sorts of concerns raised about the "Increasing numbers" of deaths from cancer, heart disease and so on, which are certainly regrettable, but it should also be a cause for celebration! Remember that a lot of those increased numbers come from the fact that OTHER causes of death which we are preventing aren't getting people FIRST....

WheelyFixed

[Croctopus (imported)]

how is this inquiry is shortsighted or arrogant? Is it arrogant to ask how the ancients dealt with the medical consequences of losing some other body part? If the answer is "they didn't" that's fine. How do you know what gratitude was like back then compared to now? Also where are you getting your facts from? You are incorrect about there not being medical care or insurance in the ancient world. Evidence of Insurance contracts and surgery date back to the earliest civilizations with writing. I don't mean to be combative but hisgoodson sounds like he's ranting about something else?

Thanks wheely for answering with a record of evidence indicating the presence of osteoporosis.

[Paolo]

No one is saying that your initial question is shortsighted or arrogant.

We speak with 20th/21st shortsightedness and arrogance.

That statement isn't aimed at you or your question. It's describing modern-day attitudes, which I tend to agree with.

[Hisgoodson (imported)]

how is this inquiry is shortsighted or arrogant? Is it arrogant to ask how the ancients dealt with the medical consequences of losing some other body part? If the answer is "they didn't" that's fine. How do you know what gratitude was like back then compared to now? Also where are you getting your facts from? You are incorrect about there not being medical care or insurance in the ancient world. Evidence of Insurance contracts and surgery date back to the earliest civilizations with writing. I don't mean to be combative but hisgoodson sounds like he's ranting about something else?

Thanks wheely for answering with a record of evidence indicating the presence of osteoporosis.

You are taking my response personally. My opinion is levelled at, and written as a generational generalization - not targeted at you as a single person. That's part of having "perspective" - understanding nuance and context versus personal attack.

Thus, it is an opinion based on archetypal knowledge and understanding; not a "rant." As such, it's pointing out that which should already be obvious.

Also, beware of trying to universally apply "facts." Just because a data point exists doesn't mean it can brush a broad stroke across the long tail of history's full narrative.

Yes, even cavemen show evidence of crude cranial surgery - it doesn't mean they had a system of healthcare. Barbers used to do medical procedures up until a hundred-ish years ago. The point is not only that life was very different between the have and have nots, but that in general, all people had access to "less" in each generation - less knowledge, less peace, less physical stature, less comfort, less amenities, less support, less personal and professional mobility, etc.

And you don't have to go back very far. Personally, I'm only 60 and grew up in a house with an outhouse for a toilet, wood stove heat, hand pumping water from a well inside the kitchen, in a family where expectations of my own "mobility " were supposed to be an arranged marriage and continuing the family trade. That informs a different perspective maybe than your own...

[Croctopus (imported)]

Regardless of your perspectives on modern day attitudes per the OP - Ancient societies had advanced systems of insurance contracts and healthcare. Other readers will be misled if you keep repeating this arrogant and shortsighted idea that people were incapable of negotiating risk contacts or delivering healthcare on a societal scale before today. I am very interested in learned what non modern interventions were employed to mitigate the negative consequences of castration throughout history, if anyone can find any other examples. There just doesn't seem to be much reference in the scientific corpus.

[JesusA]

Unfortunately, much of the information that we have about the health situation of historic eunuchs and castrati is merely anecdotal. We do not have much clear data to work with. There is a bit of medical data from the first half of the 20th century (primarily on the Russian Skoptsy) and there has been some recent analysis of a few skeletal remains (primarily of Italian castrati). While there still are a few prepubertal eunuchs in Saudi Arabia, I have found no medical data on them and the coffee table book about those still guarding the tomb of the Prophet does not mention anything about the subject.

There is probably a difference in bone health between those castrated before puberty and those castrated after.

Bone health and strength is maintained by estrogen, not testosterone. The male body converts some testosterone to estrogen for that purpose. That's why contemporary eunuchs can use small doses of estrogen for bone protection, rather than taking testosterone for the aromatase enzyme to convert to estrogen, if they so wish.

Based on anecdotal evidence and a bit of medical evidence, there was clearly osteoporosis in older eunuchs in the northern areas from what data we have. There is almost no good data on eunuchs in more southern areas such as Africa and India. There were a great many eunuchs in sub-Saharan Africa who have been understudied. For example, in the 16th century, Emperor Askia Muhammad Bānī of Songhay deployed a force of 4,000 eunuch cavalry. Prepubertal eunuchs often held front line positions in the military of both Africa and the Near East. Their bone health does not seem to have figured in anything that I have found to date.

Bone health also depends on adequate Vitamin D and calcium, as well as on bone-stressing activity. Sunlight is a source of Vitamin D and would be less effective in northern areas. Eunuchs in India would probably have a good source of calcium in the milk found in the traditional Indian diet.

[Paolo]

Regardless of your perspectives on modern day attitudes per the OP - Ancient societies had advanced systems of insurance contracts and healthcare. Other readers will be misled if you keep repeating this arrogant and shortsighted idea that people were incapable of negotiating risk contacts or delivering healthcare on a societal scale before today. I am very interested in learned what non modern interventions were employed to mitigate the negative consequences of castration throughout history, if anyone can find any other examples. There just doesn't seem to be much reference in the scientific corpus.

I don't normally do this, but you know what? You can drop this confrontational attitude right now before you find my entire LEG up your ass.

[Croctopus (imported)]

Unfortunately, much of the information that we have about the health situation of historic eunuchs and castrati is merely anecdotal. We do not have much clear data to work with. There is a bit of medical data from the first half of the 20th century (primarily on the Russian Skoptsy) and there has been some recent analysis of a few skeletal remains (primarily of Italian castrati). While there still are a few prepubertal eunuchs in Saudi Arabia, I have found no medical data on them and the coffee table book about those still guarding the tomb of the Prophet does not mention anything about the subject.

There is probably a difference in bone health between those castrated before puberty and those castrated after.

Bone health and strength is maintained by estrogen, not testosterone. The male body converts some testosterone to estrogen for that purpose. That's why contemporary eunuchs can use small doses of estrogen for bone protection, rather than taking testosterone for the aromatase enzyme to convert to estrogen, if they so wish.

Based on anecdotal evidence and a bit of medical evidence, there was clearly osteoporosis in older eunuchs in the northern areas from what data we have. There is almost no good data on eunuchs in more southern areas such as Africa and India. There were a great many eunuchs in sub-Saharan Africa who have been understudied. For example, in the 16th century, Emperor Askia Muhammad Bānī of Songhay deployed a force of 4,000 eunuch cavalry. Prepubertal eunuchs often held front line positions in the military of both Africa and the Near East. Their bone health does not seem to have figured in anything that I have found to date.

Bone health also depends on adequate Vitamin D and calcium, as well as on bone-stressing activity. Sunlight is a source of Vitamin D and would be less effective in northern areas. Eunuchs in India would probably have a good source of calcium in the milk found in the traditional Indian diet.

This is super intretesting thank you! I guess it's the idea that great soldiers and generals can rise above men with testosterone feels like an extraordinary handicap but your suggestion that the lack of evidence of southern eunuchs being no squeaky wheels in the presence added sunlight and calcium is reasonable. I've learned a lot from browsing the forums so far and for this information I am grateful. I have it in my head that there is an extinct ancient plant like sylphium that they all took to explain the promiscuity among castrati, etc.

[WheelyFixed]

This is super intretesting thank you! I guess it's the idea that great soldiers and generals can rise above men with testosterone feels like an extraordinary handicap but your suggestion that the lack of evidence of southern eunuchs being no squeaky wheels in the presence added sunlight and calcium is reasonable. I've learned a lot from browsing the forums so far and for this information I am grateful. I have it in my head that there is an extinct ancient plant like sylphium that they all took to explain the promiscuity among castrati, etc.

I think it was in the non-fiction section, but I've seen a reference that there are supposedly studies that show a present day and recent past correlation between HIGHER ranks in the US military and LOWER Testosterone levels - probably at least partially age related, but still interesting... At least one suggested explanation relates to emotional responses to situations... Testosterone is associated w/ "Reactive / agressive" responses which tend to be immediate and arguably not great for individual survival, though good for 'tribal' survival... Reactive responses makes the caveman jump into the defense against the predator attacking the women, or the soldier jump on the grenade / attack the machine gun nest, etc... Downsides are things like "road rage".

Low T and higher estrogen is associated w/ "strategic" responses like letting the other guy take the hit, or make a longer term battle plan.... At least some of what I've seen about those eunuch leaders is that they were 'strategists' not front-line fighters... Arguably also relevant is that eunuchs in literature seem to have had a reputation for being more sly or sneaky and do long-term paybacks - again strategic rather than reactive responses...

As a practical matter - there seems to be plenty of evidence that implies a lot of osteoporosis among those that lived long enough in the old days - note how many descriptions of the elderly of either gender, eunuch or intact, included 'hunchback'... This is usually attributed to bone loss in the upper back and neck, aka osteopenia and osteoporosis... However severe osteoporosis would not have a big effect on mental function so wouldn't necessarily prevent a general from leading. More speculative, but given the at least partial evidence that eunuchs lived longer than their intact peers (probably barring things that would do in either) then presumably eunuchs would be more likely to get age related conditions like osteoporosis...

WheelyFixed

[Croctopus (imported)]

Here's a 19th century citation of women eating bovine ovaries as a predecessor to estrogen supplementation. Perhaps the ancients found relief consuming bovine testicles ?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7334883/

[fhunter]

Here's a 19th century citation of women eating bovine ovaries as a predecessor to estrogen supplementation. Perhaps the ancients found relief consuming bovine testicles ?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7334883/

There are actually certain foods high in phytoestrogens.

[dadkww69 (imported)]

Hi,

maybe this guy, respectively his memoirs would be interesting to read:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filippo_Balatri

There are hints for literature, and his memoirs are maybe even printed:

https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/discov ... o&offset=0

There also seams to be some more information about this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atto_Melani

see also her:

http://forums.eunuch.org/showthread.php ... ght=Melani

I'd believe that the castrati were to a certain extent volutarily cut, so that they evaluated the consequences as acceptable for what to win (especially economically and no physically hard work)

[WheelyFixed]

Hi,

much

I'd believe that the castrati were to a certain extent volutarily cut, so that they evaluated the consequences as acceptable for what to win (especially economically and no physically hard work)

I'd SERIOUSLY question how "voluntary" the castrati cuttings were... Consider that to become a castrati one has to be cut before puberty, at least in some cases reportedly well before... So I think there would be considerable doubt about it being 'informed consent' even if the kid agreed to go along with whatever Mommy and Daddy asked him to do, or got fast-talked into it... The hard work and economics factors seem unlikely to be a factor to a kid, since they wouldn't be expected to have had to do a lot of hard work, and not much concept of economics.... He certainly would have less than complete understanding of the joys of masturbation, let alone

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the decision really wasn't the child's but was instead made by the parents, possibly encouraged by clergy, and the kid then got the snip whether he wanted it or not...

WheelyFixed

[NaturalEunuch]

Here's a 19th century citation of women eating bovine ovaries as a predecessor to estrogen supplementation. Perhaps the ancients found relief consuming bovine testicles ?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7334883/

Like Rocky Mountains Oysters? They're not bad, actually.

[The Maintaner (imported)]

I'd SERIOUSLY question how "voluntary" the castrati cuttings were... Consider that to become a castrati one has to be cut before puberty, at least in some cases reportedly well before... So I think there would be considerable doubt about it being 'informed consent' even if the kid agreed to go along with whatever Mommy and Daddy asked him to do, or got fast-talked into it... The hard work and economics factors seem unlikely to be a factor to a kid, since they wouldn't be expected to have had to do a lot of hard work, and not much concept of economics.... He certainly would have less than complete understanding of the joys of masturbation, let alone

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the decision really wasn't the child's but was instead made by the parents, possibly encouraged by clergy, and the kid then got the snip whether he wanted it or not...

WheelyFixed

Wheely you semen to have overlook that children at very early age were working Ernie of Maine

[WheelyFixed]

Wheely you semen to have overlook that children at very early age were working Ernie of Maine

Yes and no.... Children definitely were working, probably to some degree from as soon as they were walking, but primarily they would be working at the behest of, on tasks determined by their parents or other caregivers.(and primarily for the benefit of said parents / caregivers). They were not going out and getting jobs on their own for their own paychecks, etc... Some were apprenticed out to other masters by their parents, with differing financial arrangements, but while the child may have been allowed to express an opinion, the final say was the adults....

In fact, everything I've seen suggests that children / adolescents remained under the direct control of parents or other adults until LATER than our current 'adult' ages (in the US) of 18-21, unless the adult gave consent to a given individual child...

So I don't see it as a very high likelihood that the CHILD was the leading decision maker, though some may well have volunteered for various reasons, good or bad...

Everything I've seen said it was the parents choice in the end - the volunteering kid would stay intact if the parent didn't want him done, and if they did want him done, the kid was going to get snipped like it or not....

WheelyFixed