A suggested age limit for surgical castration?

[An Onymus (imported)]

I was probably the one who motivated Andrew to explore this issue, and I wish I could remember where I read the passage relating to the effects of castration in the late teens or early twenties. I think the book was in the research library at UCLA, but all I remember is the comment that matters like physical form, beard growth, and voice pitch could be affected by castration at that age, more than in older individuals. Castration has never been my main interest in research about sex and society, and my academic field isn't closely related to these things, so I don't think I even took any notes at the time.

I would point out that there is probably a substantial population of persons castrated in that age range, between fifteen and twenty-five, among the hijras of South Asia. (That is the age when many of them begin careers as prostitutes, and excision of the genitalia is, I think, often done at that time to make them desirable as sex partners.) Because of the substantial eunuch populations in those countries, there has undoubtedly been research into their health issues, and perhaps that research is accessible. (Conceivably, Felix Spector, M.D. (Ret.) would have some knowledge of it.)

As to the case of the Fraj, I wasn't registered on the Archive at the time he was posting here, but I've read some of his posts--he seems to have been reasonably sane when he made them, and he gives the impression of being quite intelligent. If you've read books about people dealing with various kinds of difficult situations, including, among others, THE JUNGLE IS NEUTRAL, THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO, COOPER'S CREEK, and ACROSS THE WIDE MISSOURI, one striking thing you notice in them, is that intelligent folk can often adapt to conditions, see the opportunities in their situations even though everything looks bad, and turn things around, to their advantage. I think there is some prospect that the Fraj could wind up doing something of that type--providing, of course, that he gets back into psychological equilibrium, and doesn't choose to expire during the next year or two. Castration may limit him in some areas, but could open opportunities in others.

[Blaise (imported)]

providing, of course, that he gets back into psychological equilibrium,

That is a vital assumption. It seems that most people who kill themselves act in a depressed state and that treating the depression often reduces the potential for suicide. What happens in depression is that one does not have a sense of hope. It is not simply feeling down. It is feeling that nothing will change how you feel.

Because of the substantial eunuch populations in those countries, there has undoubtedly been research into their health issues, and perhaps that research is accessible.

Maybe.It would be good to know if there is such research.

I was probably the one who motivated Andrew to explore this issue, and I wish I could remember where I read the passage relating to the effects of castration in the late teens or early twenties. I think the book was in the research library at UCLA, but all I remember is the comment that matters like physical form, beard growth, and voice pitch could be affected by castration at that age, more than in older individuals. Castration has never been my main interest in research about sex and society, and my academic field isn't closely related to these things, so I don't think I even took any notes at the time.

I would point out that there is probably a substantial population of persons castrated in that age range, between fifteen and twenty-five, among the hijras of South Asia. (That is the age when many of them begin careers as prostitutes, and excision of the genitalia is, I think, often done at that time to make them desirable as sex partners.) Because of the substantial eunuch populations in those countries, there has undoubtedly been research into their health issues, and perhaps that research is accessible. (Conceivably, Felix Spector, M.D. (Ret.) would have some knowledge of it.)

As to the case of the Fraj, I wasn't registered on the Archive at the time he was posting here, but I've read some of his posts--he seems to have been reasonably sane when he made them, and he gives the impression of being quite intelligent. If you've read books about people dealing with various kinds of difficult situations, including, among others, THE JUNGLE IS NEUTRAL, THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO, COOPER'S CREEK, and ACROSS THE WIDE MISSOURI, one striking thing you notice in them, is that intelligent folk can often adapt to conditions, see the opportunities in their situations even though everything looks bad, and turn things around, to their advantage. I think there is some prospect that the Fraj could wind up doing something of that type--providing, of course, that he gets back into psychological equilibrium, and doesn't choose to expire during the next year or two. Castration may limit him in some areas, but could open opportunities in others.

[Blaise (imported)]

Malcolm X used prison to become a remarkable (extremist) man, who (later) greatly matured as a human being during and after his hajj. He used prison to change himself without conforming to the dominant culture.

After working for almost 25 years with addicted and alcoholic offenders, I am still amazed that people believe that they can safely drive under the influence of intoxicating substances. It's a cultural illness.

However, how well people do in recovery from alcoholism and other additions fascinates me. I prefer recovering addicted people to non-addicted people because those folks have had to take an in-depth look at their lives. They know themselves.The victims of genital violence in India probably could teach us a lot about being human beings.

Most of my research over the years has been internet-based, although I have a friend who occasionally can get me access to a fairly large medical archive online. So far I have run into precious little research data about castrated men at any age, save for that involving medical results in response to testicular and prostatic cancer. I have found a few articles, viz., depression and sexual (dys)function among these (especially older prostate patients), but none were terribly informative. I have never found any research data, viz., the hira - medically speaking. I may just not have connected yet. But then the hijra are considered in India to be among the lowest of the low classes, and given the nature of that society, I doubt that much research effort would be tendered in that direction.

Many people do have a very amazing ability to adapt to strange, bizarre, and difficult life situations to the extent that they in some ways become normalized. Intelligence oftentimes does facilitate this. I saw it all the time in prisons. The risk of course, is that in normalizing these conditions, people often lose their "normality" and sensibilities and sensitivities, and it can be a very difficult thing to recover from. After working the system of corrections in this country for over 13 years, I have in so many ways become so enured of its bizzarre, violent, and strange ways, that it is very difficult to shock me any more. What horrifies most people, I sometimes look at and think been there heard that before - nothing new. THAT is scary. Also as frightening, is that many of these people can become quite cold and passionless, or they go to the extreme opposite and become passionate extremists, and they do return to live among us. Fortunately, not are all bad, i.e., Alexander Solzenhitzen, after his return from the Gulags. Not bad man, just very bizzarre and unable to cope well with the world.

The lesson, I think, is that we often can recover, probably recover reasonably well, but things will never, ever be the same again.

Krister

[TerryUK (imported)]

I agree that there should be a minimum age before a man should be able to seek castration. With such a big step and the effect that it will have on a man's life, he does need to have some experience of life.

I suggest that a man should be aged at least 30 before he can seek castration "on demand" as it were. I am not suggesting that no man should ever be castrated before he reaches 30. If he wishes to be castrated before that age, then he should be required to go on a course of anti-androgen drugs for at least three months. Not only will this give him the opportunity to experience life as a eunuch (but still with the chance to change his mind before the final cut) but also it gives him time to think about losing his balls and to be really sure that this is how he wants to be for the rest of his life.

Provided that he has had a trial run as a "chemical castrate" and been properly counselled, then it should be possible for any man over the age of legal consent to be castrated.

Terry (a much older and very contented eunuch)

[Blaise (imported)]

Why thirty? How do you decide that age over twenty-five or twenty-eight and four months?

What are the signs of maturity a candidate ought to have? Who establishes the norms?

Chemical castration plainly makes sense for many candidates for bodily castration. Medical situations may make that stage gratuitous.

I agree that there should be a minimum age before a man should be able to seek castration. With such a big step and the effect that it will have on a man's life, he does need to have some experience of life.

I suggest that a man should be aged at least 30 before he can seek castration "on demand" as it were. I am not suggesting that no man should ever be castrated before he reaches 30. If he wishes to be castrated before that age, then he should be required to go on a course of anti-androgen drugs for at least three months. Not only will this give him the opportunity to experience life as a eunuch (but still with the chance to change his mind before the final cut) but also it gives him time to think about losing his balls and to be really sure that this is how he wants to be for the rest of his life.

Provided that he has had a trial run as a "chemical castrate" and been properly counselled, then it should be possible for any man over the age of legal consent to be castrated.

Terry (a much older and very contented eunuch)

[happousai (imported)]

I agree that there should be a minimum age before a man should be able to seek castration.

I thought the point of this thread was a suggested minimum age, rather than a mandatory minimum age.

I have no problem with the former, but the latter infringes on my right to make decisions for myself.

[Andrew (imported)]

I thought the point of this thread was a suggested minimum age, rather than a mandatory minimum age.

Indeed. This thread started as my desire for feedback on the best possible wording for my list of castration effects, oriented towards those who are thinking of this operation but may not be in poosession of all the facts about what is really going to happen to them. There is still way too much fantasy and wishfull thinking on the subject.

[Blaise (imported)]

"

There is still way too much fantasy and wishfull thinking on the subject.

"

And for those of us who have experienced (essentially in my case) the positive effects of low testosterone and/or castration, that is not enough. Being a eunuch is a real life choice for some people--one with significant side-effects and consequences.



"Believe it; dogs have Masters, cats have staff."

Yes, cats do. My staff was not bit enough.

[jab (imported)]

Okay, so back to the original question.

My suggestion for a eunuch standard of care is as follows. Start with the one for TS. However, the minimum age should be set at the age where people are finished their growth (maybe 21?) and are also age of majority. Furthermore, the eunuch should "live as a eunuch" by using medically administered chemical castration for a period equal to that required by a TS person.

I'd say that this would be completely reasonable...

Age of majority, and a good amount of time with it done in

a reversible way. Then you bring 'em back and say, you have

three choices: stop the drug, continue with the drug, or get

rid of the NEED for the drug via surgery.

[happousai (imported)]

Some M2F (and F2M) TG children have the option of getting hormonal treatment by Tanner State Two of puberty (basically, before any noticable changes occur), and then castration as early as age 16.

In a perfect world, how would eunuch-wannabe children be handled? In my case (I'm age 21), I could have done without the voice changing and body hair/beard growth. But since I went through puberty "normally", it would be difficult to undo this.

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

I thought the point of this thread was a suggested minimum age, rather than a mandatory minimum age.

I have no problem with the former, but the latter infringes on my right to make decisions for myself.

I've read this thread with extreme interest. While I was castrated at an older age (56 y.o.) and there were even extenuating physical circumstances - painful testicles from many years of infections of the epididymis, testicles that spent far too much of their time in my inguinal canals and associated low levels of natural testosterone production - that had convinced me that I'd be no worse off as a castrate, I've nevertheless encountered many castrates or eunuchs in their late teens or early 20s that were quite happy being ballless or without external genitalia. One of the reasons that many of us on this board have advocated the need for surgical castration on demand is that there is often a psychological need to follow through with the surgical procedure, and this need may be even stronger in younger candidates than in older ones. Any undesirable consequences are also riskier for younger candidates. It should be sufficient that due dilligence be assured in the case of younger candidates.

Prior to making my own decision to have my balls harvested, I consulted briefly with a therapist who's counselled many non-TS men with a castration fixation. I learned that she's particularly sensitive in her practise to the pitfalls that may especially afflict younger men. She focuses particularly on the loss of reproductive capability that's not necessarily a concern of mine or many other members of this board, but is relevant to the lives of younger seekers. Her services have seemingly been useful in causing many candidates to take that 2nd assessment, and quite a few have reportedly decided to put off the loss of their balls or try harder to live with their fixation. I did the latter for many years, and I'm not sorry I did. However, many others can't live as happily with a castration fixation. I am confident that carefully formulated guidelines within the medical community would be sufficient.

An even larger concern of mine is the decision to forego testosterone supplementation following castration. Fortunately, one can undertake it at anytime, and this goes for Fraj as well. I am surprised that no one has yet brought up this possibility.

[stanley (imported)]

Here is an article on the long term effects of castration

http://intl-jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/c ... 84/12/4324

I appoligize if it has been posted before.

[Blaise (imported)]

Wow, thank you for this reference.

[sl1 (imported)]

I believe that the current ages for surgical consent are for the most part adequate.

I firmly believe that no surgery on the sexual organs should be allowed without the consent of the person, unless it is an absolute medical necesity ie injury or cancer. Some exception for restorative procedures to correct birth defects.

No exception for religious reasons. This should be a Universal Human Right.

For the Jews and Muslims they could go back to the old way it was done, where the foreskin was separated from the glans and the frenum was cut, or just the drawing of blood from there and wait til the Bar Mitzvah for it to be done. After all they no longer offer animal sacrifices.

I do believe that it should be done slowly, ie a mandatory 1 year on something like Lupron. During that period a psychological counselling should be done to ensure that is what the person needs, or wants. ie No unreasonable expectations, like getting castrated will make their life all right. ie they will be loved, etc.... Castration, etc. are not cure alls.

I know that my castration won't make everything right, it won't solve my problems. It will just be different. Personally I don't like my genitals, and hate the hormone level I presently have.

This assesment period should have no age limit, and be totally private for the person no matter what age. Any problems will start at puberty and kids are starting to enter it earlier and earlier.

The best way to ensure a person really wants them gone is to have them awake and cut the cords themselves.

Remember we have people in our group that are transexuals, slaves, and multiple others who for some reason they feel their life would be better without their equipment, or the equipment they want or desire.

Some people here want no hormones, others want less, and others want different ones.

[Sherry (imported)]

In theory, it is legal to have yourself castrated at age 18 or 21, depending on where you live, and assuming you can find a Physician, Doctor, or Surgeon willing to do the operation. In such cases, tthose Doctors might be more willing to prescribe chemical castration.

So I am wondering if I should do a rewrite, with a suggestion that age 25 is the cut-off date (pun intended), under which a person should try chemical castration before making the final decision for surgery?

If not 25, what age? 30? 40? Castration before age 40 increases your risk of ostreoporosis.

This is really a tricky issue. The needs of those who would benefit from orchiectomy need to be weighed against the needs of those who need to think about this and be careful. Do we just give this surgery on demand and never mind those who will regret it, or do we make it difficult to obtain, which might prevent a few regrets, but cause problems for those who do need to be castrated?

Personally I lean toward allowing consenting adults to be able to obtain the surgery. I had my orchiectomy at age 31, and I am happy with my route, but I also regret that I didn't get to do it when I was younger. Back in 1985 I made an irreversible decision which I now regret. I decided to try and repress my gender issues, and as a result I allowed years of testosterone effects on my body. I was fortunate in many ways, for in spite of waiting until my early 30s, I was still able to effect my physical and social transition and be just another woman in everyday life, but I did lose my hair, developed a beard which cost me $12,000 plus other expenses to remove it, and worst of all lost 14 or so years of happiness which I could have had sooner. I was 17 years old at that time, and no therapist or doctor asked me if I was sure I wanted to deny my gender issues and let testosterone take effect on my body. No friends warned me or asked if I would be happy pretending to be a man.

If standards were made, that might cause a few unsure persons to hesitate before getting the surgery, but there will still be some who will put themselves through whatever protocol we put in their path, get the surgery, and then regret it. In addition, some will find ways to go around such a system by forging therapist letters or pretending to be on anti-androgen medications. One such example of a person who went around the system for transsexuals to get SRS and then regretted it is:

http://transsexual.org/letters20.html#moron

Transitioners like myself would no doubt benefit from castration at a younger age. When a non-transgendered man writes to me, if he is between 18 and 25, I advise him to consider that his body has not finished masculinizing yet, and is he sure he wants to forego the additional masculinization? However, just because someone is not transgendered does not always mean that they would regret being castrated while still a young adult. Some men would wish to let their development finish, while others would rather feel peaceful and calm already.

In my E-Mails, I have suggested to persons of all ages to try chemical castration if they are not sure. It should be noted that those who are transitioning often take estrogen (a form of chemical castration) for some time before orchiectomy, and usually before SRS.

I just posted a new page on my website urging persons who are sure they would be happier for being castrated to obtain the surgery safely and intelligently, and I wish there were more doctors who would safely perform this surgery, especially for the non-transgendered men here. Instead of calling for more standards, I would wish anyone considering castration, regardless of their age, to be absolutely certain that they know themselves.

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

This is really a tricky issue. The needs of those who would benefit from orchiectomy need to be weighed against the needs of those who need to think about this and be careful. Do we just give this surgery on demand and never mind those who will regret it, or do we make it difficult to obtain, which might prevent a few regrets, but cause problems for those who do need to be castrated?

Personally I lean toward allowing consenting adults to be able to obtain the surgery. I had my orchiectomy at age 31,..... but I also regret that I didn't get to do it when I was younger.

If standards were made, that might cause a few unsure persons to hesitate before getting the surgery, but there will still be some who will put themselves through whatever protocol we put in their path, get the surgery, and then regret it.

Transitioners like myself would no doubt benefit from castration at a younger age. When a non-transgendered man writes to me, if he is between 18 and 25, I advise him to consider that his body has not finished masculinizing yet, and is he sure he wants to forego the additional masculinization? Some men would wish to let their development finish, while others would rather feel peaceful and calm already.

I just posted a new page on my website urging persons who are sure they would be happier for being castrated to obtain the surgery safely and intelligently, and I wish there were more doctors who would safely perform this surgery, especially for the non-transgendered men here. Instead of calling for more standards, I would wish anyone considering castration, regardless of their age, to be absolutely certain that they know themselves.

Sherry, I find your comments extremely wise ones. People of all ages, even guys still in their teens, might benefit from castration and should have the option open. This is true for trans-sexuals as well as not. Some will later question the wisdom of their decision or regret it. I'm not certain that anyone has demonstrated that youth are more likely to later regret the decision.

What is true is that youth have more to lose. However, they also have more to gain. Cutting short masculinization takes on more importance for younger guys. The ability to reproduce is of special advantage and importance to younger folks. I believe all of this just increases the onus for the availability of quality psychological counselling. This availability is perhaps more important than living for a period of time with anti-androgens.

[happousai (imported)]

One such example of a person who went around the system for transsexuals to get SRS and then regretted it is:

http://transsexual.org/letters20.html#moron

Hmm, interesting. He forged recommendation letters, and the SRS surgeon didn't check the references, so he managed to acquire SRS.

[Sherry (imported)]

Hmm, interesting. He forged recommendation letters, and the SRS surgeon didn't check the references, so he managed to acquire SRS.

North American surgeons usually check up on the letters these days, because I would imagine that almost any experienced SRS surgeon has encountered at least one person who forged their letters and then regretted it. But I imagine it would be more difficult for Thailand surgeons to check up on letters from therapists in North America or Europe.

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

The best way to ensure a person really wants them gone is to have them awake and cut the cords themselves.

I insisted on that and would not have had it any other way. However, I'm not certain most sugeons would conduct the procedure in this manner?

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

As most of you know, I have been putting together a list on the effects of castration, aimed towards those thinking of becoming eunuchs...... This is because of my learning the MOST distressing news that The Fraj now regrets his decision, and is now fighting depression. I've also been reading other threads. In theory, it is legal to have yourself castrated at age 18 or 21....So I am wondering if I should do a rewrite, with a suggestion that age 25 is the cut-off date (pun intended), under which a person should try chemical castration before making the final decision for surgery?

A close friend is fond of saying that prognosis must be preceded by diagnosis. It strikes me that the diagnosis is false. Ipso facto, the prognosis is therefore faulty.

I've been giving this issue some thought. Why should one conclude that the objective function should be age at castration. I can think of many options in this respect. Perhaps it's an error to say age is the issue. Some others participating in this thread have noted that many young people have made wise decisions at a young age that they have not regretted. I was also recently perusing the web site for the Sansui Clinic in Thailand. I noted a testimonial posting from a guy that had gone to them seeking a bilateral orchiectomy. To make a long story short, they talked him into the removal of one testicle and the shrtening of the sac, leaving a single testicle up close to his crotch and behind his cock. He expressed his gratitude towards this very creative solution to his desire to be castrated, but yet be left with sexual libido, which the doctors at the Sansui Clinic found after discussing the man's desires with him at some length. Perhaps the problem with castration on demand, which is basically the service offered by the physcians in Philadelphia where Fraj was castrated is that it seldom pursues other outlets for castration obsessions or fixations. In other words, perhaps it's not age, but the maturity of applicants, mediated by the willingness of the physicians to pursue other options?

[rwilliams (imported)]

Castration should be an individual descision, responsibility and with no repurcusions to the doc, he is only performing what was requested.

[Leona Lee (imported)]

Hmm, interesting. He forged recommendation letters, and the SRS surgeon didn't check the references, so he managed to acquire SRS.

Hi All! This Story is heartbreaking. It seems there are so many of these anymore. I hope other's just think about this and if they are believer's ,have a long talk with the big guy. Hugs, Leona

[strassenbahn (imported)]

As most of you know, I have been putting together a list on the effects of castration, aimed towards those thinking of becoming eunuchs. I have had very useful help and feedback from many in the EA about this. So time for another revision.

This is because of my learning the MOST distressing news that The Fraj now regrets his decision, and is now fighting depression. I've also been reading other threads.

In theory, it is legal to have yourself castrated at age 18 or 21, depending on where you live, and assuming you can find a Physician, Doctor, or Surgeon willing to do the operation. In such cases, tthose Doctors might be more willing to prescribe chemical castration.

So I am wondering if I should do a rewrite, with a suggestion that age 25 is the cut-off date (pun intended), under which a person should try chemical castration before making the final decision for surgery?

If not 25, what age? 30? 40? Castration before age 40 increases your risk of ostreoporosis.

Andrew, you raise a very important issue which I would like to address from perhaps a different -- but perhaps still relevant to your posting -- perspective, namely that of the importance of making important life choices in accordance with the classic Greek principle "know yourself", and particularly in terms of distinguishing between the world of fantasy and the world of reality, and the very different implications of actions taken in these two worlds.

Let me start by idenifying myself: I am a non-castrated male who wishes he were a woman -- but will never have a sex change operation, because such an operation would not be able to fulfill my fantasy desire of being a GG like my avatar. I stress that I mean no disrespect whatever for males who choose to go the transexual route. but I simply want to note that going this route isn't for me because in this case the world of reality would not be able to match my intense world of fantasy (in which I turn into my avatar). Likewise, I belong to and contribute to stories this site because I find the castration fantasies exciting.

BUT for me -- and I stress "for ME" because I know that there are many eunuchs like yourself, Andrew, who have found happiness in actual castration -- the "real thing" is not an option. More seriously, those persons who, like me, live in the world of castration as a fantasy thing -- perhaps even a fantasy thing that dominates their thoughts -- and who decide to put that fantasy into reality, should simply recognize how different the world of reality is from the world of fantasy. I am NOT arguing against a move from the world of fantasy into the world of reality (i.e. from eunuch wannabe to the real thing). I am just making the point -- which is so obvious but it seems to me so important that it can't be stressed too much -- of the need to "know thyself" and decide which world you want to be in. There are many happy eunuchs out there, Andrew, such as yourself. But there are also -- as in your posting, to which I am replying -- those regret there decision.

My bottom line: you can dream about being castrated every day. You can only have it done once. I'm most definitely NOT saying don't have it done if it's right for you. I'm just saying, before having it done, "know thyself" in terms of comething you love to dream about, or something you really want to live with in the world of reality.

[Christina (imported)]

I believe that age should not be the deeming factor of when a person is castrated, although it could be weighed more heavily if the person was very young. What I would like to see in place is a program similar to the Harry Benjamin standards, where a person does have an outlet to seek castration. This would entail a period where the person would be seen by a doctor for the administration of chemical castration drugs and maintain their health, along with a therapist to be sure the person can handle the emotional effects brought about by castration. Taking these steps would help to insure that person is a good candidate for physical castration. For older persons a year minimum should be required on this program, and for the younger person, a two year minimum would be a safer choice.

Chemical castration does in fact mimic physical castration, and given a relatively short period of time, it is reversible. I don't think anyone would object to this type of scrutiny if it was possible to obtain a safe method of physical castration.