Castrating Boys And Adolescents

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Castrating Boys And Adolescents

I hope this topic can be discussed rationally; I think that too many people don't even want the discussion to occur at all. That is unfortunate, as without opening up the discussion, then all boys are destined to pass through puberty.

Jesus:

"To test the boundary between fantasy and reality on the Archive I posted an ethical dilemma at one point. I wrote up a scenario questioning the ethics of castrating a child (when HE wanted it) and asked for comment. The discussion was VERY heated, and not a single respondent thought that, other than for dire medical reasons, any child should ever be castrated. There even evolved a discussion of the minimum age of consent with several people pushing for 25 or higher for such an irreversible decision."

Well, I'm now the first one taking an opposing position.

Many have commented, as above, that castration is irreversible; in terms of reproductive capability this is certainly true. But with HRT and implants, a boy can become a man in other respects.

When it comes to boys, NOT castrating them is even more IRREVERSIBLE. Once a boy passes thru puberty and adolescence he is a man and will remain so. The changes that occur during this period are the most profound, and have the most impact, of anything in a boy's life.

Simply, a boy can become a man with HRT, but a man can never return to being a boy.

This is important.

Lost in the discussion is the desirability of entering manhood. The common assumption here is to let the guy decide if he wants a castration when he is legally an adult. For many guys, including myself, and others that write and comment here and on BME, it is far too late.

There is a second underlying assumption here: that a boy [pre-pubertal] is too young to know if he wants to be castrated. I know most boys would not even entertain the notion of being neutered. Keep in mind though that boys that repulse the idea are often reflecting the values they absorb every day.

For a boy to propose or consider castration, it should be an indication of strength of his desire or need. One way to address this is to provide a delayed puberty for boys desiring castration before puberty so that they can be old enough to make the decision themselves. The most direct way is androgen blockers. This way, a boy can discontinue the drugs at any time and allow maturity to commence, if he changes his mind.

Ironically, boys castrated before puberty for medical reasons are allowed to determine when and. more importantly. _IF_ they want to pass thru puberty and adolescence. I know one adult "boy" that never started HRT [cancer survivor] and has never regretted it. The implants are the originals [boy sized] and overall he still looks very young. The one thing some people notice is that his limbs are disportionately long. Given his sports are swimming, soccer, and track, that has been an advantage from his perspective, though I have wondered if he perhaps he chose those sports for that reason.

For boy choristers [and this is just one group], puberty can be devestating. For boys that are involved in many athletics, like baseball, puberty is welcomed; it improves his skills. For choristers, especially the highly gifted ones, who hold choir as central to their lives as baseball is for many little leaguers, it is particularly cruel. They reach a zenith, a star performer, and they can be member of the ranks of the siilent voices within 3 to 6 months.

I know one boy chorister that is a castrati. He was voluntary castrated at 15 [at a clinic in Amsterdam] to preserve his voice. When the testes were examined after he was castrated, it was determined that they were vestigal. They would never have matured, and likely would have had to be removed anyway.

bullgeo:

"Hey, what about all of the boys that were castrated so they could sing in church, where was that? Germany? I know there was a famous boy's choir, right?" [See my separate thread on Modern Castrati.]

Why not give boys that want to delay puberty or never enter it, the option, using reversible means? Why should the option be restricted to those boys that obtain it only as a side effect of medically-mandated castration?

Another problem is that if a boy wants castration, or even delay puberty, he is thought to need counseling, but if a boy is castrated for medical reasons and then chooses not to go on HRT, then he does need any counseling. Well, if a boy doesn't want to go through puberty, does he need counseling, or doesn't he?

Personally, I have never found being an adult as giving me anything I did not have prior to puberty, but did give some things I rather not have, including the onset, at the start of puberty, of Bi-Polar Disorder and clinical depression, let alone the normal changes in sexual characteristics. I also did not like my "new" genitals for 3 to 4 years after they started to mature and still only grudgingly accept them.

Castration after pubery will not reverse those conditions, plus it will cause medical problems that do not occur in boys nuetered before puberty. From my own experiences, a boy deciding to be castrated may not be anymore wrong than the adults around him forcing a boy to endure puberty and entering manhood, whether it is best for him or not.

To be sure, there are side-effects of delayed puberty [natural or induced] and pre-pubertal castration, but in contrast to those that can occur after puberty they are far less significant. For pre-pubertal castration, the univeral side-effect is the loss of erecticle capability. A boy has to decide how important masturbation is in evaluating his options

I have spoken to numerous boys and men with these mental health issues [and several others] and _everyone_ of them state that they started with the onset of puberty.

happousai:

"I wish someone had castrated me before puberty."

So do I.

I did not ask to be castrated at the start of puberty. even though I did want it. I didn't know what it was called then, but I was pretty sure everyone would think me insane for asking. Well turns out I may be half crazy now because I didn't.

I reiterate, adults do not know any better if it is good for the boy to go though puberty than the boy knows if he should not. The boy may know better. He is the only one that has to live his live as either the boy or the man.

I can not speak for other members here, but I firmly believe that both questions have to be considered valid, and both have to be considered as equally important. As part of sexual education, boys should be made aware that puberty does have do be endured. I know what I wanted then, and it is too late for me now.

Do we, or any adult, truly have the right to mandate to every boy that they pass through puberty and adolescence?

YC

[JesusA]

YankeeClipper has asked, very clearly and articulately, an important question. One that I hope will be taken seriously by the members of the Eunuch Archive and responded to with thought, rather than strong emotion.

When I first came to the Archive, I would have reacted, instantly, with great passion (and revulsion) to the thought of castration of children. Now, after meeting and talking with several of the members here, after corresponding with even more of them, and after a great deal of reading and research, I'm much less sure of my answer.

I'm now convinced that "gender dysphoria" comes in more flavors than the psychiatric establishment currently wants to think (though I've talked with some who are open to change). The psychiatrist's bible, the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition) includes a diagnostic category for gender dysphoria:

302.6 Gender Identity Disorder

There are two components of Gender Identity Disorder, both of which must be present to make the diagnosis. There must be evidence of a strong and persistent gross-gender identification, which is the desire to be, or the insistence that one is of the other [emphasis added] sex. This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex. there must also be evidence of persistent discomfort about one's assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. The diagnosis is not made if the individual has a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia). To make the diagnosis, there must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

There is recognition of male-to-female and female-to-male transsexual identity - though there's an emphasis on treatment to "cure" it, rather than any acceptance of its reality.

What I see very clearly in a few individuals whom I have met here is a very clear male-to-eunuch transsexual identity. YankeeClipper mentions his own. Philip, in his outstanding autobiographical thread Philip: The Making of a Eunuch (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7423) also discusses it clearly and articulately. Another such person on the Archive has become a good friend and the source of a great deal of enlightenment.

I have communicated with individuals who initially thought that they were male-to-female, but only later discovered that, not only were they not female, they were neither polar gender. I have heard of two female-to-male transsexuals who went through painful and expensive gender reassignment, only to discover that their ideal gender was "eunuch".

DSM-IV clearly states that many individuals with "Gender Identity Disorder" can be identified by age 4 or 5.

What sort of treatment OUGHT to be available to such children? In the Netherlands, they can receive hormone blockers to prevent puberty in the "wrong" gender, but any surgical reassignment must wait until they are adults and can make the legal decision themselves. I have heard of a case in England of a 10 year old male-to-female who is currently on androgen blockers (at the expense of the National Health Service).

Tentatively, I had termed this form of gender dysphoria "Choirboy Syndrome". Not because the individuals wanted to become catrati to preserve their voices, but because they were choirboy age when they were first clearly aware of their "eunuch" gender identity.

I was surprised (and pleased) to discover that Charlie Anders, in her novel Choir Boy (Brooklyn: Soft Skull Press, 2005) refers to the same syndrome when Dr. Tamarind says to the story's hero:

"One thing's for sure. You won't get any more pills if you're not really transgendered. Not from me, not from that clinic. We can't prescribe without a clear diagnosis. GID [Gender Identity Disorder] is a diagnosis. 'Wants To Stay a Choirboy' doesn't show up in the DSM-IV." --page 187

The novel clearly has a strong autobiographical component. Charlie Anders is the publisher of Other magazine and is a male-to-female.

What OUGHT to be done about a very real population? I'm certainly far from reaching my own conclusion. I'd like to hear some good discussion of the issues raised.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Jesus:

"

Tentatively, I had termed this form of gender dysphoria "Choirboy Syndrome". Not because the individuals wanted to become catrati to preserve their voices, but because they were choirboy age when they were first clearly aware of their "eunuch" gender identity.

"

For as far back as I can remember, it has been referred to as "Peter Pan Syndrome" and is, at least informally, recognized by some therapists.

More recently, I have developed friendship with guys with "Choirboy Syndrome" for exactly what the name implies. They are excellent alto, treble or soprano choral singers and are very clear about not wanting to join the ranks of the silent voices. Others, that did lose their voices, and with it every thing else that was central in their life - the concerts, the time spent with other choirboys, the rehersals, the music itself, and all of the richness that is a part of the unique world of the chorister - it was a terrible loss or worse.

My friend that was castrated this past winter at 15, now remains lead chorister and lead soprano in his Welsh Cathedral choir and is comfortable with his decision. He was disappointed that he can no longer masturbate [he wishes he had not learned how so that he wouldn't now miss it] but as he has put it, he "sing with balls." His voice continues to develop more brilliance and gain power while his love of choral/baroque/classical music continues to grow. [It is likely that he would have been castrated at some point since it turns out he testes were not going to develop, but that was not known then. It is why he was still pre-pubescent at 15.]

Contrary to the mistaken belief oft-stated amoung members here, the castrati never disappeared.

See my separate thread on Modern Castrati.

I believe he should have the right, without resorting to travelling to Holland, to obtain castration. Oh - he spent six months wieghing the question before choosing to move forward. Which of you is willing to say he made the wrong choice, or that he should be denied the choice?

I don't know what the right age to allow a boy to choose to stay a boy, but he should have the right to at least, in a reversible way, remain a boy until he can make the choice, My opinion is that by 15, if a boy is going to want his balls, he'll have decided by then that he does. Keep in mind that most of those that seek castration first started to develop the desire either during puberty, or just before it's onset. In his case it was before puberty, but it was not genital dysphoria, but an exchange of his testes for his singing and his music.

He knows his options for the future: HRT and adoption [one, both, or neither]. This allows him to become a man. a father, or both, IF HE WANTS TO.

One the other guys I know was a lead chorister and lead alto. He was offered castration at 12, but his father refused to allow it. When puberty hit, his voice broke and never returned. It is flat and hard to control. He had to leave the choir and since his voice didn't return, neither could he to the choir. His father's decision created a chasm between them that shows no signs of closing. He has continued his studies in music, but without his voice, it is not the same. He does not want to be an adult, or a father, but he cannot go back to being a boy.

Only 1 in 8 choristers are able to return to singing after puberty. For the boys that are most intensely involved in the choral world, castration has to remain an option.

One other thing that I think need to be emphasized again: When a boy is castrated before puberty, he remains a boy, only one lacking testes. This is critical to this discussion. Of the guys I know that were castrated before puberty, all report feeling no different or of suffering serious medical/psychological conditions after castration. They all lost the ability to mastubate, and have developed [or are developing] long limbs, but otherwise have had no other side-effects [including fat gain or breast development].

There is a clear biological reason for this: until puberty, the testes produce minimal levels of testosterone, thus the loss is minimal. This is radically different from an adult that is castrated where there is a huge drop in the testosterone levels. That is one reason why I can not pursue castration now; it would only exascerbate the problems I already have with clinical depression.

I think our society has inculcated into the minds of most boys that they have to become a man and that if they think otherwise, they should feel guilt and think of themselves as somehow abnormal. For boys that truly want to remain boys [and thus should] I think we have to start to provide that option.

YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Charlie Anders, in her novel Choir Boy (Brooklyn: Soft Skull Press, 2005) --

"One thing's for sure. You won't get any more pills if you're not really transgendered. Not from me, not from that clinic. We can't prescribe without a clear diagnosis. GID [Gender Identity Disorder] is a diagnosis. 'Wants To Stay a Choirboy' doesn't show up in the DSM-IV." --page 187

Quite correct!!! There is absolutely nothing dis-ordered about wanting to stay a Choirboy! Quite the reverse. It is a very well thought through and rational decision when faced with a very serious, life-altering change that will wreak havoc in that boy's life.

Jesus - thanks for that quote.

YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

"

I know one adult "boy" that never started HRT [cancer survivor] and has never regretted it. The implants are the originals [boy sized] and overall he still looks very young. The one thing some people notice is that his limbs are disportionately long. Given his sports are swimming, soccer, and track, that has been an advantage from his perspective, though I have wondered if he perhaps he chose those sports for that reason.

"

I want to point out why he chose to pass on HRT. Initially, he just kept postponing starting on it. At 18, he finally did make the decision not to pursue it at all. He was, and still is, satisfied with his physical appearance, does not miss sex, since he never even starting masturbating, and did not want to get into a drug regimen that would have a lifetime commitment. He recognized that stopping HRT would have the same impact that castration of an adult has. Thus why start? I agree with his logic.

[curious_guy (imported)]

My friend that was castrated this past winter at 15, now remains lead chorister and lead soprano in his Welsh Cathedral choir and is comfortable with his decision. He was disappointed that he can no longer masturbate [he wishes he had not learned how so that he wouldn't now miss it] but as he has put it, he "sing with balls."

I wonder if he would be able to masturbate by using Viagra or the erection drug that is injected into the base of the penis.

Would it be possible for him to take a tiny dose of testosterone that would give him the about same amount that a six-year-old boy has? If he did, would be able to masturbate and still keep his voice?

[Skopztikov (imported)]

When it comes to boys, NOT castrating them is even more IRREVERIBLE. Once a boy passes thru puberty and adolescence he is a man and will remain so. The changes that occur during this period are the most profound, and have the most impact, of anything in a boy's life.

Simply, a boy can become a man with HRT, but a man can never return to being a boy.

This is important.

YC

This is not just important! I'd have to say that in my experience, NO TRUE WORDS HAVE EVER BEEN SPOKEN!

I would do anything, give anything to be able to turn back the clock and have been castrated prior to puberty.

This topic is really the HOTTEST POTATO I've ever handled, and I write advisedly having been a member of YahooGroups Castrati History group whereon I precipitated a lot of controversy by making exactly that comment in a post. Nowhere did I say I approved of child castration, only that I wish I'd been castrated as a child so I'd never have had to experience the nightmare of living as an adult MALE.

I am one of those MtE (male to eunuch) transgendered folks that Jesus writes about... in fact, I happen to be the specific friend he mentions in his post, who, in course of our face to face discussion, allowed him to see just how real the gender identity of "eunuch" can be for people like me. I had significant gender dysphoria as a young child and experienced endless angst about the social role expected of me as a boy and later as a man. None of it fit then, and it still does not fit today. I'm not a "guy" by any stretch of the imagination. Nor am I a girl or woman.

Unlike YankeeClipper, I just wasn't smart enough at that age to know that those bits between my legs would cause me such horrors. When testosterone began to rise and hair began to sprout on my body, I was horrified at the changes taking place. I felt disgusted and disgusting and wore only long sleeve shirts buttoned all the way to the top so as little as possible of my changing body would show. I cried for weeks when I was told I could no longer sing in the boys choir at my church because my voice had broken. It seemed my life was over in sixth grade.

It was.

I've since been castrated and take a hefty dose of antiandrogens daily, lest even a vestige of hormonal masculinity peep through. I shave off all my body hair and hope that some day I'll be able to afford electrolysis to get rid of it. My appearance has happily grown more and more androgynous and I occasionally get called "Ma'am" by those who don't look too closely.

Insulted? Not on your life. It means I'm closer to my gender ideal.

Yet all these things only approximate the life I might have had. I can never truly go back. There is no way, as YankeeClipper says, to turn a man back into a boy, and I never wanted to be a boy anyway. While I'm grateful I've been able to minimize and even negate the effects of my post pubertal biology, I'll never truly be able to express, phyically and mentally, the gender I am inside: non-gendered eunuch.

Do I pretend to know what is right for others, especially children?

Do I think we should allow pre-pubertal castration or at least suspension of puberty (as in the Netherlands) until a person reaches the age where the law allows self-determination in gender matters?

I simply don't know. I don't think I really understood matters well enough at that age to know what would have stopped the process.

The best I can do is share is my experiences, like the many nights that, as a child, I cried myself to sleep asking God to somehow miraculously allow me to wake up as a girl—not because I wanted to be a girl, but because I knew I'd never make it through life as a boy.

Fifty some years of living haven't changed what I knew at age 5, and I'm incredibly grateful for a therapist who supported what I knew to be right for me when I told him that I was going to Philadelphia a few years ago. And grateful also for friends like Jesus who see me as a whole and complete human being... as I am!

Thanks.

Greg

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Would it be possible for him to take a tiny dose of testosterone that would give him the about same amount that a six-year-old boy has? If he did, would be able to masturbate and still keep his voice?

Even in boys the natural testosterone level varies enough between boys to make the level for a specific boy at six years old impossible to calculate and try to determine the correct level risks changing [and potentially the loss of] the boy's voice.

YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Skoptzikov:

"

I cried for weeks when I was told I could no longer sing in the boys choir at my church because my voice had broken. It seemed my life was over in sixth grade.

It was.

"

I know only of what a loss like that can be, not what it is like, not having been involved in singing to the degree he obviously was. It is this loss that causes puberty to be so cruel to choristers, why my 15 year-old friend sought, and obtained castration, and the other friend I discussed is still deeply angry at his father.

Unlike Skoptzikov, I had no problem being a boy; it is that I wanted to stay just that.

YC

[Boots (imported)]

I wish that I had been castrated at an early age rather than as an adult. I really wanted to be castrated at 9 and asked and had some school friends try to do so but we did not know how. We tried to squeeze them to destroy them but could not do so. I never wanted my nuts then or later but did not get castrated til late 30's. It has been wonderful but could have been better if done back then.

[JeffEunuch (imported)]

Castrating Boys And Adolescents

I hope this topic can be discussed rationally; I think that too many people don't even want the discussion to occur at all. That is unfortunate, as without opening up the discussion, then all boys are destined to pass through puberty.

Do we, or any adult, truly have the right to mandate to every boy that they pass through puberty and adolescence?

I find it interesting that several members of the EA have apparently changed their minds since the first discussion ended some time ago. My own view is that there are many reasons that minors, both prepubescent and not, might want to seek voluntary castration. As in the case of adults, those views should be respected. Canadian jurisprudence generally entitles children to control their own development destiny at age 12. A wrong decision can be mitigated. Implants can be inserted into the sac. HRT can be commenced. Sperm can even be banked in the case of pubescent castrates, and adoption is always available as well. Of course, we also know of many minors for whom castration was the wrong choice. For this reason safeguards need to be put in place. In the end a man or boy w/o balls or genitals is still a full human.

[sal.limpone (imported)]

You type about Rights, But it is really about Power, and conformity, Not Rights.

Adult men and to a lesser extent women, Have the power to decide what they want for boys, Not boys.

Look at what our fathers did on the reservations in the North American way of dealing with Indians. We sterilized/Neutered over 1,000,000 ind nas of both genders in the first 70 years of the twentieth century. The reasons/excuses given were wide ranging from helping to stop sexually transmitted ills, helping to tame them, so they would better fit into white culture.

We even took the children away from the parents to "Educate" them in how to act like white men and women, We forced the loss of "Indian" culture, language , and religion. In those schools they were forced to worship the Protestant god, as a Protestant should! They also claimed that by enabling the "Indians" to have a higher standard of living without all those kids, they would be more 'Civilized'

When 'WE' decide something for a lessor being, Indian, Children, Blacks, and of course animals, we try to create them in our image. Why? We want to Prove we are the only right way to be! And We have the power, for now, and we will use it our way!

[email protected] ([email protected]) AKA sal.limpone

[DrewR (imported)]

I'm glad this topic came back to life. I've read enough posts to know for sure that wanting to be castrated often kicks in before puberty. My love for eunuchs certainly did.

[Bagoas (imported)]

I assume that when it is claimed that pre-pubertal castrates can't masturbate, it is meant that they can't masturbate to an adult-type orgasm and ejaculation. I remember vividly that I greatly enjoyed playing with my little "thing" in boyhood and derived great pleasure from it. Especially do I remember, while watching Johnny Weissmuller cavorting nearly naked on the silver screen as Tarzan, frantically pumping my thing with my jacket in my lap to conceal what I was doing. Eventually, I would experience a wonderful feeling, qualitatively quite different from an adult orgasm, but very enjoyable. Perhaps, at age 8 or 9 my little testicles were producing enough testosterone to permit me to experience a kind of orgasm, but they can't have been very active, for they were hardly more sensitive than any other part of my body. Even if struck, they did not produce the intense "testicular" pain which they did after pubescence. This sensitivity is usually considered to be an indicator of testicular activity. So, I wonder if masturbation is really impossible for pre-pubertal castrates, or is it merely inferior to what it would have been after pubescence ?

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

I assume that when it is claimed that pre-pubertal castrates can't masturbate, it is meant that they can't masturbate to an adult-type orgasm and ejaculation.

No.

Every one of the pre-pubital eunuchs I know lost the ability to acheive erection within about one month of their castration and thus cannot masturbate.

A few had dry orgasms before, including the 15 year-old, the others produced clear fluid. None retained erectile function.

YC

[Kelly_2 (imported)]

I cannot comment on castrating boys, but often, people born with male plumbing have a female gender--what we often call transsexual.

Girls born with boy bodies generally know about it long before puberty. From Annie Richards' wonderful page on Treatment of Young MTF Transsexuals:

http://annierichards.tripod.com/young.htm

According to one study, two thirds of transsexual boys are aware that they belong to the opposite sex and exhibit noticeable "cross-gender behaviour" by age 5, and 77% by age 10. Another study of 137 MTF transsexuals confirms these figures, finding 70% exhibited cross-gender behaviour before age 10, and another 20% before age 15.

Although the child may not admit to his transsexual desires at this stage, the parents will often start to have some concerns about their son. The onset of puberty is a critical point as the child is faced with his own undesired physical masculinisation, often combined with a great jealously of girls and their physical changes, by age 15 some 90% are exhibiting feminine behaviour. This is the point where many transsexual children finally admit to their wish to be a girl and they, or their parents, seek help.

Years ago, help for young TS people was very restricted, and even not allowed in Western countries. However, the Standard of Care do now allow the prevention of puberty in young transsexuals:

http://www.hbigda.org/socv6.cfm

Adolescents may be eligible for puberty-delaying hormones as soon as pubertal changes have begun. In order for the adolescent and his or her parents to make an informed decision about pubertal delay, it is recommended that the adolescent experience the onset of puberty in his or her biologic sex, at least to Tanner Stage Two. If for clinical reasons it is thought to be in the patient's interest to intervene earlier, this must be managed with pediatric endocrinological advice and more than one psychiatric opinion.

I certainly wish that I could have had that treatment prior to my hideous male puberty. And I do know people who were able to transition prior to puberty. Life is so much more normal. Again from Annie Richards:

However it is important to note that many boy-to-girl transsexual's do not consider themselves to be transsexual - indeed they often actively dislike being called such - they just consider themselves to be girls. The brutal reality is that young transgirls often associate the word "transsexual" with TV documentaries featuring strange middle-aged men, married with children, who at the end of the programme still look, sound and behave like balding men wearing dresses to their very discriminating eyes and standards. Young transgirls simply can not relate themselves with these examples of transsexuality - their problems are totally different, and even passing is rarely one of them.

It is people like me who endure the discrimination--they can avoided it and I see no reason why they should suffer. A good example is Natta (featured in Annie's page). She was the one that took care of me for several weeks after my SRS. She started estrogen at age 11 and had SRS herself at age 16. I am so jealous!

It seems that the prevention of puberty for TS girls is an optimal idea. Their lives can be so much better than those of us who endure the wrong puberty.

Hugs,

Kelly

[JesusA]

Thank you, Kelly, for your informed and informative response. You sent me scurrying to my bookshelf to find the full definition for Tanner Stage 2. For the benefit of others, here it is....

Tanner Stage 2

BOYS:

A. Height increases at basal rate: 5-6 cm/year

B. Testes 4 ml or long axis 2.5 to 3.2 cm (Average age 11.5 years - normal range 9.5 to 13.5 years)

C. Minimal coarse, pigmented hair at base of penis (Average age 12.0 years - normal range 9.9 to 14.0 years)

C. Earliest increased length and width of penis (Average age 11.5 years - normal range 10.5-14.5 years)

GIRLS:

A. Height increases at accelerated rate: 7-8 cm/year

B. Breast buds palpable and areolae enlarge (Average age 10.9 years - normal range 8.9-12.9 years)

C. Minimal coarse, pigmented pubic hair mainly on labia (Average age 11.2 years - normal range 9.0-13.4 years)

[curious_guy (imported)]

Ideally, in order to maximise the physical benefits, low level oestrogen treatment of the young transsexual boy-to-girl should begin at age 8-9 years.

"Oestrogen" seems to be the British version of the American "estrogen". Oestrogen is not listed in my Britannica 2002 DVD or my Random House Dictionary CD. I finally found it in my Concise Oxford Dictionary CD-ROM.

Before I found it I thought it was a shorthand for oral estrogen.

[WeRNotAfraid (imported)]

No, no, and NO. There is obviously a distubing number of people on here who fantasize about children, particularly chilren who become mutilated/castrated for some reason. That's bad enough. To want to castrate children so they can attain some imagined state of "choirboy" or whatever the hell it is is ever more pathetic and disgusting. I don't even favor allowing youth who may be transsexuals to undergo surgery. In worst case scenario, they should be prescribed anti-androgens to delay the onset of masculinization and nothing more. When you're 18 and had more time to think about it, THEN is the time to start hormones and procede to more irreversible procedures.

I'm probably one of the very few people on here who have actually HAD orchiectomy surgery. It's a tough thing to go through, and the ill prepared can suffer serious after effects. I've known I was transgendered since I was very young, but I waited until 25 to have surgery. Why? To be on the safe side. There are plenty of regret stories out there, and on here. A lot of people regret their surgeries.

All of the mutilation fetishes, pedophilia thinly disguised under a veneer of concern ("if children have unnecessary surgery they won't grow up" ala Michal Jackson) and projecting of sexual fantasies on to minors is the reason I don't come here anymore. I'm not one of those spineless PC types that says "well, anything goes when it comes to sex and it's all relative." It's not. I'm disgusted by some of the stuff people on here imagine. Anyone thinking about children in this way needs help or to be in jail.

[Paolo]

OK, first off - try not to kill one another with this thread.

Discuss rationally and display your intellect - not your raw or knee-jerk emotions. Only in this manner can we have everyone's opinions to share in a logical fashion.

If you can't make a rational and fact-based (with some thought-out personal feelings interjected, yes that's fine) reply, then please cool down and try it again later.

The purpose of this thread is not to start a flame war, regardless of how you feel about the topic(s). Any off-shoots of the topics, tangents if you will, should be treated in the same manner. The issue of theoretical young 'wannabe's' should be included in this.

As we have already seen, there are those who believe that they have encountered persons under the magical age of 18 that seem to be precocious enough to make such a radical decision. I personally have yet to meet any along these lines. I've been hit with just about everything else in my adventures in boy-raising, but this isn't one of them - yet.

One piece of advice for the unmarried marriage counselors, though - don't pretend to be an expert on a subject that you know nothing about. This is much like priests and nuns giving marital or sexual advice. Our renowned Sister is the only nun qualified for this.

My own thoughts on the manner remain pretty much unchanged from the original discourse that we had long ago, however. While I do not doubt that there are boys out there who could definitely benefit in myriad ways from DELAYING puberty via chemical means supervised by professionals in the medical field, I still do not believe that there are boys out there who are capable of understanding the life-altering action of castration before or AT puberty. Holding it off is one thing - surgery is quite another.

One closing note - if this thread offends you that much, then either don't read it and don't reply to it - OR - try to come up with a rational defense of your thoughts.

Like it or not, the issue of castration (and other alterations and abuses) of minors has been around since Time Immemorial and still is. If you can't handle that or accept it, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[sal.limpone (imported)]

As usual Paolo, well thought out, Direct, to the points, and Brief. Some of the reasons I have long admired you. I also agree that consensual delay seems at this point to be the best choice trill we acquire more information about Minor castration.

[JesusA]

The question of what to do about gender dysphoria is very real, but the solution(s) is/are incredibly difficult. There clearly is no ideal solution, only better or worse ones. I'm pleased that those responding to this thread are concerned about both the logic and the compassion of finding ways to help.

Delay would certainly be part of anything that I came up with. It's just what else goes with the delay. Counseling and education, of course, but should there be any drug-induced delay of puberty? Should the child go through puberty before being able to make a choice? There are problems BOTH ways.

If it were my child or grandchild, I don't know how I would answer. I hope I never need to find out.

I know enough people with gender dysphoria to know that it is very difficult and painful to deal with.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

No, no, and NO. There is obviously a distubing number of people on here who fantasize about children, particularly chilren who become mutilated/castrated for some reason. That's bad enough. To want to castrate children so they can attain some imagined state of "choirboy" or whatever the hell it is is ever more pathetic and disgusting. I don't even favor allowing youth who may be transsexuals to undergo surgery. In worst case scenario, they should be prescribed anti-androgens to delay the onset of masculinization and nothing more. When you're 18 and had more time to think about it, THEN is the time to start hormones and procede to more irreversible procedures.

I'm probably one of the very few people on here who have actually HAD orchiectomy surgery. It's a tough thing to go through, and the ill prepared can suffer serious after effects. I've known I was transgendered since I was very young, but I waited until 25 to have surgery. Why? To be on the safe side. There are plenty of regret stories out there, and on here. A lot of people regret their surgeries.

All of the mutilation fetishes, pedophilia thinly disguised under a veneer of concern ("if children have unnecessary surgery they won't grow up" ala Michal Jackson) and projecting of sexual fantasies on to minors is the reason I don't come here anymore. I'm not one of those spineless PC types that says "well, anything goes when it comes to sex and it's all relative." It's not. I'm disgusted by some of the stuff people on here imagine. Anyone thinking about children in this way needs help or to be in jail.

Pleae go back and carefully read what I said. I was speaking for myself, and others like myself, wherein we did not desire puberty for OURSELVES, not for anyone else, and certainly not like Michael Jackson. Whatever you believe or know about him, do not imply that the others here that are expressing deeply held feelings are ANYTHING like him. I find that deeply debasing approaching obscene to make that equation. You know NOTHING about me to make such a statement. I did not want puberty, and I do not like its effects now. I can not be castrated now because it would increase the clinical depression that I already suffer from and that was brought on by the START of puberty.

If you did not want castration before puberty, that is fine for you. For Tim, who was very careful and deliberate in his decision, castration before puberty was the correct choice, as it would have been in mine. That decision, by myself and Tim, does not make either one of us wrong as to what was/is appropriate for us.

The friends I speak of are NOT imaginary or fantasy. You can believe it not, I am not going to invest efforts to convince you of this. Unless you have been a Chorister that has a voice like Tim's or had the voice that Jay had and lost, don't presume to speak as though you do, and I find your dimmisveness offensive.

Tim is a 15 year-old lead chorister/lead soprano of a Welsh Cathedral choir that has toured much of Europe and his studies include music history, muxic theory and music analysis, He is active in soccer, rugby, swimming and track. And he is an A student. His decision was his, not mine; I was very careful NOT to attempt to convince him that it was "good" for him, as that if I had and it did not work out well it could destroy our friendship. At the same time, I chose NOT to attempt to dissuade him as I know how much his music means to him.

As it turns out that his testes were not going to mature, and for health reasons they would have been, most likely, excised by the time he was 18 anyway. He was in no danger of losing his voice, but when he elected to be castrated, he was not aware of that. Most choristers are not that fortunate. Most though do not possess a voice on the caliber of Tim's either and there is not much to preserve, not enough to have the boy thinking about castration.

He naturally is shy and guarded about his status, though he still showers with the other boys at school, [the staff and students were told it was due to cancer] and swims naked in practice as do all of the other boys do. It is a Welsh [British] public school so any teasing is strictly reproved. Some of the boys on the choir attend his school so that the other choirboys do know, but again, any teasing is strictly reproved.

Jay was offered castration at 12, arranged through an elder of the choir with a male nurse practitioner. His father refused to approve it, and it was not done. It is Jay's belief that part of his father's reasoning was that then Jay could later sire children, giving him him gandchildren. Well Jay is gay and will not sire children, If he chooses to be a father, he will adopt.

Just after he turned 15, puberty started and his voice quickly started to break. He was never able to move to the men's choir, his voice never returned. He still loves choirs, especially boys' choirs and he has seen many of the best choirs across Europe. He relationship with his father remains cold and stiff. Jay lost his voice and his father lost him.

Oh - yes i was in a boys' choir, and, no, my voice was nothing like Tim's is. That is not why I wanted to be castrated. I simply wanted to remain a boy [lacking testes] and saw nothing that adulthood would give me that I wanted or needed. Nothing since that time has disproven that. Other things proved that my interests were correct. You were castrrated as an adult and do not have the same experience that a castrated boy has. The differences are enormous, starting with osteoporosis and depression, the lack of those being present in a castrated boy, at least the ones I know [some whom are above 18, but they are and always will be "boys"].

You waited until you were 25 and now suffer from the exact problems that boys castrated before puberty avoid. What research that is available shows that M-to-F TG's given androgen blockers PRIOR to puberty make the transition far more easily that those not placed on them. It stands to reason, since this prevents the masculinization of the body and mind that puberty causes in a boy. Would your own transition had have been as difficult if you been on them from the Tanner stage 2 until youre were 25? Until you clearly, rationally, and definitvely answer that, do NOT deny that option to other TG children.

I have 3 TG post-op female friends, and, for them, being a boy was not nearly as traumatic as going

through puberty and adolescence

was. They are unanimous in wishing that that stage and the masculine results could have been avoided. Or are they Micheal Jackson pretenders too?

I have also noticed, contrary to your statement, that there has been little support for out outright castration, but that for those boys for whom delaying puberty is appropriate, that it [delaying puberty] should be available. That strikes me a sensible approach, providing what amounts to a reversible castration. You can not make it possible otherwise for a boy that wants wants to remain a boy to become old enough [15? my opinion, certainly for Tim 15 has proven to be old enough, for others, 60 is not mature enough] to get castrated; you cannot reverse puberty. Yet you posit that that boys must become men before they can decide to remain boys. That is exactly what I protest.

Given your diatribe, I do not consider that you show that you have the right to speak for anyone else. But that is precisele my original point, that only the person living in that body has that right to make that determination.

YC

[A-1 (imported)]

question...

YankeeClipper says that...

My friend that was castrated this past winter at 15, now remains lead chorister and lead soprano in his Welsh Cathedral choir and is comfortable with his decision. He was disappointed that he can no longer masturbate [he wishes he had not learned how so that he wouldn't now miss it] but as he has put it, he "sing with balls." His voice continues to develop more brilliance and gain power while his love of choral/baroque/classical music continues to grow. [It is likely that he would have been castrated at some point since it turns out he testes were not going to develop, but that was not known then. It is why he was still pre-pubescent at 15.]

If his balls were not working then why could he masturbate when he had them but not masturbate after he was castrated?

It seems that if they were not working and not going to develop in the first place that castration should have had no effect on his ability to masturbate.

Jesus, I am not convinced that you have throught through the connotations castration before puberty for the ambiguously gendered. If we let Psychiatrists pick out what sex that they think a person should be isn't that in principle just as bad letting other doctors (not psychiatrists) decide?

I think that Psychologists are better qualified to make such judgments and not Medical Doctors. I contend that Medical Schools do not teach doctors enough to make this sort of decision and that Psychologists are better suited because of the difference in the nature of their disciplines. Better yet, a multi-disciplinary team should make the decision only by unanimous vote. A dissenting member should be able to block the procedure.

The problem of this whole scenerio is that the parents that will let the kid do it generally will not have a kid that needs or wants to. Conversely, kids who want to will have parents that repress them. That is my prediction on this matter.

Also, inquiring minds want to know, Yankee Clipper, were you a regular member here befo

re under the handle Yankee masha or something to that effect?

I can not be castrated now because it would increase the clinical depression that I already

suffer from and that was brought on by the START of puberty.

Y - M, you cannot blame this on depression. Puberty did not cause your depression. Depression is the result of a neuro-transmitter deficit, not puberty. If a doctor or psychologist put this into your head they shoud be not be practicing.

You need to let go of some of your anger. Repressed anger complicates depression and leads to suicidal tendancies in the clinically depressed. Please, get a grip, O.K.? I am worried for your state of mind.

A-1

[curious_guy (imported)]

For a boy to propose or consider castration, it should be an indication of strength of his desire or need. One way to address this is to provide a delayed puberty for boys desiring castration before puberty so that they can be old enough to make the decision themselves. The most direct way is androgen blockers. This way, a boy can discontinue the drugs at any time and allow maturity to commence, if he changes his mind.

Are these drugs administered orally or by injection? How often must they be taken? Do they have significant side effects?