Castrating Boys And Adolescents

[msgtron (imported)]

I am sorry, but I am at a loss to understand this. Why would a child want to be castrated? Or why would someone castrate a child or a young man? Certainly no

medical professional would dare to even imagine performing such a procedure on a

child or a adolescent.

Sarge

Indianapolis

[DonK1954 (imported)]

I am sorry, but I am at a loss to understand this. Why would a child want to be castrated? Or why would someone castrate a child or a young man? Certainly no

medical professional would dare to even imagine performing such a procedure on a

child or a adolescent.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, only for myself, but by the time I was 12 I knew for certain I didn't want to grow up sexually. I didn't want a deep voice, or hair on my body, or or a large penis. And I knew enough at that point that I knew having my testicles removed would take care of that for me, so I knew I didn't want them anymore.

You're absolutely right that no doctor would remove a boy's healthy testicles (hell, it's hard enough to find a doctor who will remove an adult's healthy testicles unless the adult is transitioning MtF), so this thread is all kind of academic. Having said that, I think it's good to discuss what might take place in an ideal world. And I think prescribing androgen blockers for boys who want to become eunuchs eventually, and not just for boys who know their destiny is to be girls, would be a good thing. As YC points out, without blockers, by the time a male can finally be castrated it's too late. The voice has deepened, the penis has enlarged, the hair has grown, and when you do have your testicles removed you have to go through testosterone withdrawal (hot flashes, etc.).

But that's a really good question.

[mrt (imported)]

I don't agree on a couple of points. For one maybe its just me but I didn't think I would ever want to be a parent but I grew up and what? Matured? Got more experience with the world had a different view? Thats why I think its very twitchy to even think about allowing 10 and 12 year olds to make decision about the next 70+ years of their lives. What teenager or younger wants to be a mature adult and father kids? I guess few to none. Just as a lot of young men don't think they want to get married. Why do that when you can "screw around" with different women? Aging changes a lot of these attitudes and there is nothing you can do other then age to understand them *I think?

I admit I'm torn a bit because I have a lot of empathy for transexual people and yes, I understand that puberty makes changes that make transition more complicated / difficult to impossible. Still.....

Has anyone brought up the fact that even Chemical Castration has potential life time effects. Long term use will probably make that 10 year old sterile after a year or two. That seems like a pretty hard sell to any doctor prescribing it to me. How is he/she going to handle the law suits from the group that grow up and want a do over?

[Paolo]

Sarge,

Please read the entire thread and realize that this is an academic discussion inviting opinion and debate.

As for me, I am of the mind that things such as lupron injections may be fine in some cases - after thorough analysis of boy and family - but I have not changed my mind on the idea of surgery. In fact, I'm about to ready to start sneaking some depo or something into the boys' morning Cherrios...

hehe



Heck - the 16 yo. here wants his first tatoo, and his parents are all for it. I'm just shocked and would say "hell no" ... but that's me.

[DonK1954 (imported)]

I guess I don't see any difference between a boy who wants to be a eunuch and a boy who wants to be a girl. Both are unhappy with the way their body will turn out if they don't do something. That's why I like to think of both as forms of transgenderism or, if you prefer, gender dysphoria. Yes, those of us who know we don't want to mature sexually eventually go through puberty and adjust to lives as adults, but the feeling that something isn't right doesn't go away. It took me 36 years after I knew for certain I wanted to be a eunuch to finally become one, but all that time I knew my testicles didn't belong as part of my body - they were foreign objects that had betrayed me by disfiguring my body.

I think there's a level of discomfort with boys who don't want to become men that has to a certain extent been overcome with regard to MtF transgenderism and also with boys who want to have sex with boys, and the first expression of this discomfort is "it's only a phase - he'll get over it". Sounds like what they used to say about gay boys, and then boys who dressed in girls' clothes and said they wanted to be girls. Trust me on this, we don't get over it. We will be neutered eventually, it's just a question of whether we will have to go through puberty first.

Just as boys can receive blockers so they don't become men before they can transition to women, I really believe boys should be able to receive blockers so they don't become men period. I recognize that in the real world castration probably will never be an option until a guy's 18th birthday, but there should be some relief in the meantime. Yes, put in proper safeguards to try to weed out the boys for whom it's a passing fancy (although they probably will select themselves out when they feel jealous of their friends as the friends become sexual), but don't force those of us who wish to remain pre-sexual to conform to the wishes of the majority of guys who are perfectly happy becoming men.

[mrt (imported)]

I am torn because I think your all making a good point about people who know from an early age that they are gay or transgendered. But doing anything the causes sterility is an important point to consider. I think its very likely that attitudes about raising a family DO change unlike sexual orrientation.

Lets say you have a young guy who decides he does not wish to be male. Be it M2F or Eunuch it doesn't matter. If he states that he doesn't want the trouble of raising kids and he knows he never does. Well their is the problem that people really DO change. I don't know if its hormonal or if there is just a change in attitude as you get older but I know first hand I had it. At 19 I approached a clinic about being sterlized and they simply said "nope.. We don't do it for men your age." *With my problems it was probably not needed but I did change and I know many others who have changed and have families.

Strictly from the Doctors viewpoint if they provide a service to sterlize people where there is even a fair chance that they will regret it how can they do it?

I appreciate the parents who bring younger kids in who are TS and say we want to start this process early to get maximum effect and I'm not even sure thats wrong but I think its more complex then that. You have to consider the desire for bio kids at some point.

Maybe if the same situation was presented where the parents were fully on board the kid was at least close to the age of "reason" and they made some sort of attempt to bank sperm or eggs???

I just think asking a 10 or 12 year old to make serious medical decisions is insane.

Oh, and I agree on the Tatoos!

[A-1 (imported)]

This is a bad analogy, a very, very bad analogy...but...

...if a 12 year old boy came home insisting that he wanted to join the CRIPS, would you condone that also?

...and so maybe he will grow up and join a street gang. Does this mean we should let him do it before he is mature enough to know if he wants to live his (probably short :shakemitk) life as a gangsta?

I mean, these are children. They are not capable of adult decisions.

AND no, I realize where you are all coming from, but you cannot judge the world by your individual experiences.

Paolo, YOU ARE RIGHT! NO TATTOOS! ..... PERIOD! Not until they are 18!

Suppose I told you that I saw a girl in a High School class pulled her hip huggers down last September and show off her pelvic tats that were (somewhat) above where her pelvic hairline was. Suppose I would have told her that would not happen again... So, she is 15 - 16 at the most... now suppose that she is pregnant... adult decisions, yes. Is it right? Hell NO! Will she ever admit that she should NOT have become pregnant? No, not for a while, maybe NEVER...

If she DID NOT become pregnant would she regret not having become pregnant? She may have, but maybe not. She IS not much more than a child...

Are you admitting that you should have been allowed to change as a child, to make an ADULT decision regarding your gender before you knew what you wanted for sure? Oh, sure, you know now, but really, did you then? Be honest and try to remember...

I mean, proper parental guidance should NOT allow a child to be grounded in a decision that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives...

This is referred to as "Identity Fixation" in all of the adolesent Psychology textbooks, and no matter how an individual is supposedly "destined" to turn out, we just DO NOT have the scientific expertise to foretell their future and allow them to fixate themselves with no other option than the decision that they make as children. If a child has IDENTITY FIXATION, they become a very unhappy adult? But, then, is this what YOU are dealing with now?

Minors should not be allowed to get tattoos, but neither should they be allowed to make 'other' permanent changes to their bodies. Like you ALL know what...

OR should we excuse their excessive behaviors like they do when they say, "Boys will be Boys"

We could just say, "Oh well, Boys will be Girls"

I think that allowing either before they are mature is the same as giving a driver's license to a 10 year old. A gun permit to a 12 year old... I mean, they are wanting to carry a gun as an adult so why wait?

Can't you all see this. I mean, remove your personal experiences, and look... these are children...

Just because you may be a transexual or Gay or something different from mainstream now, do you think that your feelings have not been experienced by others too ashamed or too embarrassed to admit it? Just because they went another way than you did does it mean that they are unhappy now?

Perhaps no, perhaps yes?

It is just that we cannot change the world because of what did or what did not happen to US... Children MUST have options, it is part of growing up... even if those options seem distasteful to us, nevertheless, they must be allowed. But not before they ....KNOW

There is plenty of time to 'change' your sex after you are 18.

Did anybody here KNOW for sure what they wanted at 18? If so, why did you not start then?

What say you all? Think carefully, no kneejerk reactions, O.K.?

...I just have to be the Devil's Advocate, ...don't I?

P.S., Paolo, if you get caught spiking the cereal with Depo, Jesus and I will be your pen pals while you do your time in PM. I say that because you get caught doing that and go to jail you could not survive for long in General Population...O.K.?

[Francis (imported)]

Hi there all: Just wanted to say that this has been a really interesting thread and has changed my view of the issues. I originally thought that castrating minors was strictly exploitative and consequently not to be tolerated. The frank comments from those who have been through the process of growing up in the wrong gender and knowing that you wanted desperately to change direction is illuminating and informative. Thank you for these comments here and your frank discussion of what must be for you a very personal private and possibly painfull topic. It has changed my perspective dramatically

[_g (imported)]

When I was growing up the maturity of a 16 year old is like some of the now days maturity of some 21 year olds it seems. Personally I then they should consider a maturity test before joining the military, voter registration, marriage license, and getting ID to purchase spirits.

[plix (imported)]

When I was growing up the maturity of a 16 year old is like some of the now days maturity of some 21 year olds it seems. Personally I then they should consider a maturity test before joining the military, voter registration, marriage license, and getting ID to purchase spirits.

I've always wondered about this whole maturity thing. Maturity is pretty subjective, I think. There are quite a few choices people of all ages make that a lot of people feel would suggest immaturity, but there are others who see no problems with these choices. So how do we determine what makes a person deserve to be considered mature?

I am not so sure we can judge maturity based on a few actions here and there. Everyone makes stupid choices every once in a while. It doesn't matter how old or mature you are.

Rather, I feel in order to truly judge a person's level of maturity, you need to look at their overall character.

I will agree with you that many young people are immature. I come across college age students daily who are painfully immature, and this immaturity is probably a large part of why I have never associated much with people my own age.

What I cannot agree with is this belief most people have that age automaically equals maturity. I have known many adults in my lifetime who I would consider quite immature, and I have known many children who I felt were more mature than most adults. While age typically equals more life experience, even life experience does not equal maturity. One has to learn from that life experience and grow as a person because of it.

Speaking of me, I haven't hit that magical developmental milestone of age 25 yet, so I am not yet mature. Exactly on my 25th birthday, my brain will finish maturing, and on that day I can instantly expect a rush of maturity to hit me. I am looking forward to it.

[Blaise (imported)]

I remember that day! What a shock it was. The law probably has to have a boundary, but who really knows what the proper limits are?

[A-1 (imported)]

I've always wondered about this whole maturity thing. Maturity is pretty subjective, I think. There are quite a few choices people of all ages make that a lot of people feel would suggest immaturity, but there are others who see no problems with these choices. So how do we determine what makes a person deserve to be considered mature?

I am not so sure we can judge maturity based on a few actions here and there. Everyone makes stupid choices every once in a while. It doesn't matter how old or mature you are.

Rather, I feel in order to truly judge a person's level of maturity, you need to look at their overall character.

I will agree with you that many young people are immature. I come across college age students daily who are painfully immature, and this immaturity is probably a large part of why I have never associated much with people my own age.

What I cannot agree with is this belief most people have that age automaically equals maturity. I have known many adults in my lifetime who I would consider quite immature, and I have known many children who I felt were more mature than most adults. While age typically equals more life experience, even life experience does not equal maturity. One has to learn from that life experience and grow as a person because of it.

Speaking of me, I haven't hit that magical developmental milestone of age 25 yet, so I am not yet mature. Exactly on my 25th birthday, my brain will finish maturing, and on that day I can instantly expect a rush of maturity to hit me. I am looking forward to it.

Yeah, and when you are 35 you will be brain-dead enough to run for U.S. President.

Seriously, 'minors' who seem mature are called 'precouscious'. Such a term is not from peer experience, but from associating with adults who demand maturity.

There IS NO clear-cut answer.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

During this discussion, several good points have come up.

1) "What if the BtE leater decides he wants a family?" Simple: ADOPT Please! As I have on at least 2 occasions, there are plenty of children looking for a good home. Adoption can, in some ways, be a mixed blessing; you're never sure about the child's background, but work with a good psychologist therapist, or psychiatrist can help with any issues that might arise before you proceed.

2.) Why does it seem that most of the discussion about having a family implies that having testes limits a eunuch from marrying or adopting. I'm unaware of any such laws, and the same for single parent adoptions.

3.) Why does it seem that most of the discussion about having a family implies that everyone wants to start his family with infants.

4.) Long-term studies of adults who lack testes during his teenge years: Research on boys (physically) with Kleinfelter's Syndrome have exactly the characteristics expected in any adult that hasn't or never would go through puberty. In Kleinfelter's, though, it is caused by a

lack of increase in testosterone from the pituitary gland that

cause the testes to start maturing and with it the start of puberty. A course of HRT triggers the testes which then continue producing testosterone as in any other male. What are the results of those that never choose HRT, but instead, choose to remain immature phisically? There is a perfect group to study.

Again, ironically, for those that do not choose to go from BtM, not by their own choice,but, by some other cause, by nature or traumatic injury, prior to the onset of puberty, are allowed, by law, to remain as they are, until they can make an informed decision. What typically happens is that the doctor will wait for the boy to choose HRT. Parent are often told to leave the boy alone, particularly when the cost of on-going HRT treatments becomes into the discussion. Let him choose, typically that occurs around age 15, when he sees other boys in the showers at school, developing. If he wants to be in athletic sports, he will gain an appreciation of what testosterone (HRT) can provide. In other cases, the "boys" adapts to his body as it, and leave "well-enough" alone.

Testicular cancer (occurring in the late teens and early 20's, well after puberty) survivors, have little choice but to remain a eunuchs, with all of the side-effects of any other MtE, and often, because the concern of the redevelopment of the cancer, HRT is disallowed, so often, they remain MtE by absolute physical necessity.

5.) Identifying BtE boys: MtE, BtG, GtB, MtF, and FtM all feel that body is "wrong". They feel very uncomfortable in the body that are "stuck in. In the case of BtG and GtB, it when expected behavior does match the everyday actions and interactions that cause adults (usually the parents) to seek out professional assistance. The type of "assistance too depends on the type of training, background and "whims" of the professional chosen. In the case od MtF and FtM, they are often required to under counseling, for as much as 2 years, before the operations begin. For MtE, it the difficulty in finding a doctor that will perform the required operation. At least now, BtG and GtB is finally being recognized in parts of the medical community.

However, for BtE's, there is no level of discomfort. He is absolutely happy just as he is. He is VERY uncomfortable with the profound chagnges that he sees occurring in older boys that are transitioning into teenage and adult males. He wants no part of it, for various reasons already discussed here. The problem starts for BtE when, and if, he says: Mom and Dad, I happy I'm being a boy and stay just want to as I am!" Nearly as bad a reaction to a gay person "coming out of the closet." Well, off to therapist, certainly in the former case, less so the latter, we go.

6.) How do we determine which boys"need" to transition into a pre-pubertal eunuch? During the annual physical, there has to be a consultative review with each of the young patients starting at age 10 and then annually (or semi-annually), until T2 occurs (I think T2 is still young enough to avoid the MtE issues, the development of testes and penis are still quite modest,though I could be mistaken), to determine what the boy thinks of of his on-coming entry into manhood. How many would say "Are you nuts?" Very few would say anything else. Those that don't want is coming, they need very careful therapy.

And by this, I don't mean the coercive therapy that is too often the goal: to convince the boy the he is "wrong-headed" about becoming a man. The therapist became man, shouldn't this boy want the same thing? This is where training and education of mental-health professionals is critical. Determining which boys are passing through a phase (thought of akin to a passing of gay boys who are expected to become straight men) or that they are extremely committed to remaining a boy (possibly to point of self-harm) is crucial.

7.) Long-term use of blockers: Using actual case of boys that are potential BtG or BtE that choose to resume puberty as they are is a good place to start. This will help to understand what the exposure to blockers over the course of several years. The same for cancer survivors that stop Androcur after remission of cancer. Do the testes resume functioning again? Or do they wither as those of steroid users? do the testes of BtG testes wither while on blockers? With a slow growth in BtG's coming, we will be able to answer the long-term effects of blockers.

For all of those of us that would like to have been BtE, I wish there had been some rational and reasonable outlet for expressing this desire BEFORE puberty.

It really does come down to the boy convincing those around him that he serious about being BtE. That really is my view of BtE, just simply remaining in the body of the boy that he knows and loves, not body of a man that represents everything hes does not want. It's not like being a man is some foreign concept. In my case, the were many reasons, not least of which was father, that I wanted to remain just the boy I was.

IF HE SAYS IT, HE MEANS IT! Good lord, why and how else would he work up the courage to "come of the closet" about such a thing? So many of here wish we could have done so in a save way. I wanted to, but I knew that even the hint of such a thought would have had me brought to a counselor the following day. And, not to discover the true cause and reasoning, but, rather that was extremely mistaken in thinking that. This one of though worst times for adults to "know best" what is "best" for little Johnny. Really, little Johnny just wants to stay little Johnny. Just that simple, at least in his eyes.

I hope these comments answer at least some of your questions, and can provide further discussion points.

YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, only for myself, but by the time I was 12 I knew for certain I didn't want to grow up sexually. I didn't want a deep voice, or hair on my body, or or a large penis. And I knew enough at that point that I knew having my testicles removed would take care of that for me, so I knew I didn't want them anymore.

You're absolutely right that no doctor would remove a boy's healthy testicles (hell, it's hard enough to find a doctor who will remove an adult's healthy testicles unless the adult is transitioning MtF), so this thread is all kind of academic. Having said that, I think it's good to discuss what might take place in an ideal world. And I think prescribing androgen blockers for boys who want to become eunuchs eventually, and not just for boys who know their destiny is to be girls, would be a good thing. As YC points out, without blockers, by the time a male can finally be castrated it's too late. The voice has deepened, the penis has enlarged, the hair has grown, and when you do have your testicles removed you have to go through testosterone withdrawal (hot flashes, etc.).

But that's a really good question.

"Having said that, I think it's good to discuss what might take place in an ideal world.

" No. 10 years ago, BtG and GtB was not even on the horizon; MtE was not common, and never discussed. Now all three have become visible. 20 years ago, MtF and FtM were barely tolerated, large invisible, and seldom discussed; now it is visible and most commonly accepted. I don't see it implausible that in 10 hence, we will see BtE as in the same category as BtG and GtB is now. Hopefully sooner.

Jesus and I have discussed ways to get the MtE and BtE into the next "Standards of Care." I hope the section on BtE will be the smallest (MtE the next smallest, due due "male menopause"), since they is no transition time, as wherein the SRS candidate must live as they desire to live, for up to 2 years, before any of the required operations are performed. The Only "Care" is to insure that the BtE "FULLY" understand ALL of the impact of staying a boy means. Jesus and I hope that all known Gender Disphora (there are 2 remaining conditions not discussed here, in part because this is primarily a men's forum, Gt-non-G and Ft-non-F, but they also need consideration, MtE and BtE are very simple procedures compared to any of the others), will become part of DSM-V.

When I have time (?) I will pull together similar threads to this one. Alternatively, I may ask others here to do so. The more people help in making this a comprehensive review, will we have any chance at all of getting any of this into the DSM-V and the associated "Standards of Care."

In the meantime, what is non-academic part that medical professionals make the "wrong" decision of what is "best" for the patient, based training, education, and similar (if any) experiences he's had. Only once the DSM-V and the "Standards" hhave been published will this finally begin to change.

-YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

I am torn because I think your all making a good point about people who know from an early age that they are gay or trans-gendered. But doing anything the causes sterility is an important point to consider. I think its very likely that attitudes about raising a family DO change unlike sexual or

ientation.

I can't say this often enough: Please, Please, Please ADOPT... Many testicular cancer survivors do as do gay and lesbian couple just that.

Lets say you have a young guy who decides he does not wish to be male. Be it M2F or Eunuch it doesn't matter. If he states that he doesn't want the trouble of raising kids and he knows he never does. Well their is the problem that people really DO change.

Please, why do most people seem to want to put up with the infancy stage? I considered adopting a boy (say 5 or 6) when I was around 35, but laws were what they were...

I don't know if its hormonal or if there is just a change in attitude as you get older but I know first hand I had it. At 19 I approached a clinic about being sterlized and they simply said "

Nope.. We don't do it for men your age."

His "Nope..." was a potentially deadly answer! Too many "Nope..."s result in "self-medication." In this case, it could have led to self-castration. His correct should have been: "I only perform that procedure after you have consulted with a professional..." You were LUCKY!

That hopefully will be addressed by the DSM-V, providing better guidance to mental-health professionals so they can determine your level of certainty. When I talk about suicide with my Psychiatrist, he reaches for the DSM-IV. With the DSM-V as a reference, if he comes to the conclusion that castration is a proper course of action for you he can refer you to a specialist that will follow his recommendations.

And yes, puberty is starting earlier, and attitudes do change, this is where the DSM-V will play a key role: changing the attitude about how to "work" with us, not to try to have us "fit the mold

."

*With my problems it was probably not needed but I did change and I know many others who have changed and have families.

Strictly from the Doctor

's viewpoint, if they provide a service to sterilize people,

where there is even a fair chance that they will regret it,

how can they do it?

As with any other patient: need/necessity. If you are a PCP, then you mostly do referral work to other doctors. Conversely, if you are a specialist, you get most of your patients through referrals.

I appreciate the parents who bring younger kids in who are TS and say we want to start this process early to get maximum effect and I'm not even sure thats wrong but I think its more complex then that. You have to consider the desire for bio kids at some point.

Same applies for a BtE as to BtG and GtB, delay the onset of puberty. and the BtE, it is just as important for him to consider in the same way, and with similar needs, and rights as the other two. This is where it it vital that the DSM-V be published with updated information in the realm. Using the DSM-IV as a reference, there is no consideration given to BtG and GtB, only that puberty must be endured in the wrong body.

Same for BtE, the difference is he knows all about being a boy, and probably what being a man is about. I'm not talking about going to college, or working after high school, we all talk about working as adults as boys. No one here was trying to avoid those. just the (primarily) physical effects brought on by puberty.

In case of serious and determined (not accidental) BtE's, consultation is needed BEFORE balls meet bricks. Then medical intervention becomes the necessity. For other boys, BtE by accident, consultation becomes a necessity after the accident to determine when to want to go from EtM, if ever. HRT cost has to be a serious consideration for them in the decision-making process, not left out.

I know what your implication is; but aren't all children biological? Even, IVF's are, and it's paid for out of my insurance payments, and now, since I live in MA, whether I want to or not, I absolutely must have. That was Mitt Romney's idea of providing inexpensive health for all. HA - Insurance rate have gone up - captive market... Why do you think Mitt ran for President? He got kicked out...

Maybe if the same situation was presented where the parents were fully on board the kid was at least close to the age of "reason" and they made some sort of attempt to bank sperm or eggs???

Impossible, it's a Catch-22: no puberty, no sperm or eggs to bank; if they produce sperm or eggs, they are no longer T1. Too late to prevent the changes that have already occurred.

I just think asking a 10 or 12 year old to make serious medical decisions is insane.

[\QUOTE]

Well, actually, a bit more involved that that. With counseling by mental-health professionals, a child can certainly have a better understanding of the ramifications involved (DSM-V needed here!). A common thread here, is at how young and certain we wanted to remain boys physically. At 6 we know we are gay, at 8 we know we don't puberty.

Proper ages? Blockers before puberty begins, at least that. for the procedure itself 12 is one realm, 15 is all together different. If he is still the only boy among the young men of his age and has not decided otherwise,

What we don't know is how many eunuchs are out there that don't receive the needed mental heath care to handle the results occurring after castation.

Some are here, they do talk about it. The most common of those are in their 20's and early 30's, survivors of cancer and vehicular accidents. For this group, too often the physical changes are addressed, but proper mental health care is not received.

Part of the reason I restarted this discussion was to have questions like yours brought forward and worked through.

-YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

I don't agree on a couple of points. For one maybe its just me but I didn't think I would ever want to be a parent but I grew up and what? Matured? Got more experience with the world had a different view?

Thats why I think its very twitchy to even think about allowing 10 and 12 year olds to make decision about the next 70+ years of their lives. What teenager or younger wants to be a mature adult and father kids? I guess few to none. Just as a lot of young men don't think they want to get married. Why do that when you can "screw around" with different women? Aging changes a lot of these attitudes and there is nothing you can do other then age to understand them *I think?

What teenager or younger wants to be a mature adult?

For many, they can't wait... It just seem to take way too long for them... for boys that want to drag out puberty, why not provide consultation, and if the evaluation shows that puberty should be delayed, work with him. Blockers do just, block (actually, simply delay) the onset of delay. Stop taking them, and puberty resume at the same rate it would have for that boy, just at a later date.

I admit I'm torn a bit because I have a lot of empathy for transexual people and yes, I understand that puberty makes changes that make transition more complicated / difficult to impossible. Still.....

Has anyone brought up the fact that even Chemical Castration has potential life time effects. Long term use will probably make that 10 year old sterile after a year or two. That seems like a pretty hard sell to any doctor prescribing it to me. How is he/she going to handle the law suits from the group that grow up and want a do over?

A bit of confusion here: Androcur (for males) and other blockers are not chemical castration medications. As always, the proper dosage is absolutely critical. Also progesterone, must be on-going for MtF, at least before castration, otherwise, the T level will slowly begin to rise. It is not a steroid, nor cause any of those issues associated with steroid usage. While blockers are being used, boys and girls must be carefully monitored for any contra-indication and discontinued immediately if needed.

See: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000131.html

On the normal dosage, it bring down T levels down, most commonly in prostate cancer survivors. From that group, it has been shown T levels rise back to typical levels with the discontinued use of it. For the them, it is Androcur or castration, not a choice of Androcur instead of physical castration.

Andocur, at a proper dosage, does not cause the testes to wither and die. This not unimportant; I have chatted with one teen with HIV in the UK. He was reading off the drugs and dosages, 5 were for the HIV, the other was Androcur. He weighed 100 pounds, but the PHS had him at a dosage for a 300 pound man (the highest single pill dosage currently). His testes became small pebbles. The goal was to do what it did (destroy his testes and with it, his sexual drive), the goal was to get him off the street, no more tricking, which it pretty much did.

I like your questions. Good for additional thoughts and answers. What I want here is this type of discussion that has been occurring here, not simply naysayers or simply agreeing with my view. My view does not belong in the DSM-V. Our views needs to be adequately addressed as part of the development of the DSM-V.

-YC

[DonK1954 (imported)]

I also don't believe there are millions of boys who would want to remain pre-sexual -- it's a rather specialized desire, in my opinion. And even among those who would, not all would express this desire to their parents or doctors. So right away I think a boy who would tell his parents or doctors that he wants his testicles removed has a high probability of being motivated to actually go through with it.

So I think it's entirely reasonable to administer anti-androgens or GnRH agonists at Tanner 1 or 2 to let these boys grow without developing until they reach an age when their testicles can be removed. I suspect a few boys might be weeded out when they realize they don't like being different from their friends, but the vast majority will be confirmed in the feeling that they want to stay boys, so they can become eunuchs probably around ages 15 or 16.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

I've across a medical condition that does not fit completely within this topic:

Case: A 14 year-old youth, that was probably in T 2, with a failure of the development of th distal (external) portion of the penis. The glans is present and appears to be of normal size, partially remaining within the location of the point at which the base of the distal penis normally starts. About 1/2 of the glans is visible through the opening that is present in groin wall. His testes are of normal size. It is a documented condition: peno-scrotal hypospadias, see:

http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/ ... npendv.htm

(valid link/site - P.)

In this case it appears the the urethra did form correctly within the penis proper, but no development of the distal penis shaft occurred. The scrotum and testes have developed normally. There is complete lack of development of the distal penis including any foreskin or mucous membrane.

For very obvious reasons...* That in itself, I find remarkable, though I find almost too many teenage boys are willing to talk about this.

I raise this because of the boy's apparent inability to perform in any sexual manner when other boys his age are typically masturbating (at least), and his testosterone levels and sexual drive is comparable to other boys his age. I believe he would probably have use a toilet instead of a urinal.

Would this aspect be bothersome or not? Since this defect occurred gestation, he never developed the ability to use a urinal, so I doubt it would be much of a bother to him.

I raise this, not because I would imply that castration be recommended because of this condition, but that the youth be referred by his MD to a mental health professional and he be given a thorough presentation and understanding of the effects of a lack of the distal penis would present as puberty progresses.

The counseling should prior to the start of puberty, probably no later than the end of T 1.

I'm not sure where else to raise this issue, it may already be covered in DSM-IV.

Though this has yet not been directly addressed in this forum, I am introducing it here because there may be reason that castration of the boy might be proposed by a mental health professional, or possibly at least propose the use of blockers until he can make a determination to live as he is, within the limitations that are present; seek plastic surgery; or physical castration. Plastic surgery is only an option in the later teen years. This condition must at least some impact on a developing boy or teenager.

One question - is there anyone here that has this condition; and if so what course action did you take, if any?

Given the sex drive of a typical teenage boy, I can see where this could be very difficult/frustrating for him to "endure." First thought that comes to my mind is the usual need to seek sexual relief upon waking in the morning something not possible for him.

Though this thread is called "

Castrating Boys And Adolescents,

" this condition does have serious implications for maturating boys and adolescents.

From my brief readings from the medical arena, this is viewed only as a physical condition, not one that could require support from mental health professional. I disagree with that assessment.

Comments, please...

-YC

* - YC and all - I edited this post because of the wording. PLEASE do not word any more posts like this, divulging the information that you did. If you stop and think, I believe you will see the reason why I edited this. We don't need that kind of liability here, and I hope the intent of the post is still intact. No pun intended! - P.

[Paolo]

Perhaps Jesus can chime in on this one.

Usually, the case for genital alteration to assign gender of male or female is based upon what is present at birth, and is done very early. This usually happens with intersexed children, although it seems that in some areas, at least, this mindset is beginning to change. Age 14 sounds a bit old, to me, for anything not to have been done. Of course, they could have been waiting to see if puberty would trigger growth of the penis, I can't say. I'm no expert on this!

I personally don't think the idea of castration to avoid puberty, if he isn't there already (likely he is, at some stage nowadays), would sit too well with a 14 year old boy. I know it scares the pants off of most of the boys (younger than that) that I know when the topic of genital injury comes up! Again, no pun intended.

[JesusA]

This is a fascinating thread with (mostly) rational and informed comments on a potentially hightly inflammatory topic. At this time, it's difficult enough to get most people to recognize that there are children who are MtF or FtM, let alone any other variant. The issue of transition before adulthood is still being hotly argued in the medical community.

On a different thread on the Archive, Support Your NPR Station

(http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13275), I have posted transcripts of two outstanding NPR programs discussing transgender children and whether or not they should be allowed to have their puberty chemically delayed. I have argued with Ken Zucker about his firm stand that children should be required to go through puberty before transitioning, but he sticks by his position. He argues that of the many boys he has seen in his clinic, of those who believed themselves to be girls before they reached puberty, only 20% went on to transition after they went through full male puberty. This is quite different from the experience of Peggy Cohen-Kettenis in the Netherlands where, of about 100 transgender children who were put on hormone blockers to delay puberty and who were allowed to transition without ever going through the "wrong" puberty, not one has shown any regret for their transition.

Even with the far more common MtF and FtM transitions there is great debate in the medical community. I expect that it will be a decade or more before MtE can become a part of any rational decision-making process concerning children.

In the attempt to gather more data for the debate, however, I have posted a set of four questions about childhood on the thread seeking information toward a Male-to-Eunuch Standards of Care documents. The questions are in post #38 at MtE SOC

(http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

12841&page=3).

Information from anyone willing to share his childhood experiences would be greatly appreciated, and certainly valuable for the writing of the document.

[Beau Geste (imported)]

I have to wonder if there is a cultural element which affects the matter of children and adolescents wanting to have the testes removed. According to what I have read, there are a number of cultures (e.g. some in Polynesia) in which it is socially recognized, that there are a number of possible sexual orientations. In these cultures, I would presume that, as a child grows up, he learns at a relatively early age, that there is a spectrum of orientations , any of which might be appropriate to him. And perhaps this would make it less likely that the boy would want to have his testes and/or phallus excised, since he could see how, while retaining the testes, he could have an identity that would allow him to interact with others according to his own orientation. To my knowledge, there is no substantial history of people wanting to, or having, their sex organs removed in childhood or youth, in cultures where a variety of orientations is acknowledged (though, admittedly, I haven't studied this sort of thing.) I guess this is done to some extent in Thailand, but my impression is that it is a relatively recent development.

The culture one lives in, typically is directed toward inculcating certain ideas into people's heads, right from the beginning of life, and it seems to me that this could cause an individual to have a kind of polar view of sex that might seem natural to him (or, or course, to her) even though it is actually something learned. The way that society teaches us things, from infancy onward, is typically insistent and unyielding. You aren't allowed to ask questions, and the whole notion that questions might be raised about certain things, isn't acknowledged.

And, in that vein, it might be argued that someone who is, say, younger than sixteen or so, might be as mature in his attitudes as an adult; but he simply might be unaware of the options that are available to him. Can you make a sensible decision, if you are unaware of a number of aspects of the matter which you're deciding?

I was certainly unaware of a lot of things when I was young. On several occasions, men who probably were gay, made what I now realize were sexual advances toward me--but I didn't understand until years later, the character of what had happened. To the credit of those who made the advances, they didn't persist when they saw I was unresponsive.

My own view on unalterable surgery like removal of the testes is, generally, that it should be done only on rare and unique occasions when the individual is not yet adult. Maybe the fact that puberty produces, when it occurs, some irreversible changes, shouldn't be considered a significant enough negative, to motivate early orchiectomies. As far as I can tell, while few transsexuals and few postpubertal eunuchs show all the typical qualities of women and prepubertal eunuchs, respectively; their characteristics still fall within the "natural" range of those two gender types, and allow them clearly to be of a sexual type other than adult men.

[chibifish (imported)]

< So I started writing this from the first page... I hope this doesn't turn into a problem... >

I would do anything, give anything to be able to turn back the clock and have been castrated prior to puberty.

I find myself saying that almost daily (with some little disclaimers on the off chance some demon will jump out and set the price at a soul o

r killing someone or something messed up like that... ).

Unlike Skoptzikov, I had no pr

oblem being a boy; it is that I wanted to stay just that.

Thank you thank you thank you for keeping this thread around...

... I did my first research paper in ninth grade on the topic of reversing the aging process. Since I sucked at doing research at the time, it wound up being more on the "let's not get old" side, and in order to not ignore my sources I wound up commenting on the "improved sex drive" provided by all of the anti-aging techniques I read about. But as you can probably guess, my intention when starting the project was far from "improved sex drive". Quite the opposite, in fact... and actually, I finally stumbled across information on substances that would reverse early puberty... ... but I never really had the confidence to say anything, and by then it was probably too late (I can still wear clothes from before that time...).

It all started earlier, though only by enough to have saved me had I been... ... ... more informed? Around the time I turned twelve, I quite suddenly realized how I'd changed as a person throughout my life (particularly in school), and I knew I wasn't who I wanted to be... and that puberty would be more than a stumblingblock to correcting that (both physically and mentally...).

Between the EA and my own reflections and researching of conditions and all of that fun stuff, I'm certain that, if I could somehow wake up and find myself at a point prior to 2000, the second thing I would do would be to plot the destruction of my testicles. (the first would depend on what mood I wake up in, but either way it'd probably be some dramatic reaction... granted, getting my vision back to the way it was at that time wouldn't hurt, either... but if I had to choose, I'd go with prepubescence... at least then I'd feel like doing something about it...).

I'm sure now that "man" is more than just a full-grown male... it's a state of being, one where I don't want to be, and can't say that I am... but I am most definitely male. At the risk of killing anonymity... I've got a personal text under my non-existent avatar on another forum that says: "I am neither god nor man... I am a [ink smudge]". (I think it was 2003 when I put that up?). The rest of my ramblings should make it very clear what part I left out of that sentence (and the response when I asked if I should reveal it was that to do so would take away the mysteriousness... which somehow I didn't notice. Hehehehe...).

I would never have seen this thread if i

t hadn't been revived... even though it's too late (and was when the thread was started) for me... it still means a lot.

My own thoughts on the manner remain pretty much unchanged from the original discourse that we had long ago, however. While I do not doubt that there are boys out there who could definitely benefit in myriad ways from DELAYING puberty via chemical means supervised by professionals in the medical field, I still do not believe that there are boys out there who are capable of understandin

g the life-altering action of castration before or AT puberty. Holding it off is one thing - surgery is quite another.

This, though, is the truth...

In seventh grade I heard about a rapist who was castrated by vigilantes. Subsequently, a random dream involved a couple people I know mistaking me for someone else and doing the same to me... a relatively minor point in the dream over all, without any apparent sexual relevance, or even that much to be annoyed about... and I had absolutely no idea at the time what it would have meant other than sterility.

Actually, I had no idea castration would have done what I wanted until my post-research paper research, as mentioned above...

Castration, being irreversable and all, should require a very informed decision... one that most people who would benefit from it earlier wouldn't have had at the time...

... Though, if GNRH(Ant?)agonists do what the stuff I haven't read in five years suggested... ... I'd suggest the option to chemically delay puberty until one is more capable of choosing something more permanent.

(Hmm, ok, so I guess my voice is part of this... heck, I've taken several recordings of myself from the nineties and tried making a text to speech engine out of it... Put two more cassettes on my computer today...)

(... And I hate, hate, hate, absolutely hate being over five feet tall. I think my eye got used to seeing things from a certain height... because in sixth grade (Hmm, interesting choice of time) I was told I had my head down too much... and even though I can't see half as well as I could then, I still find my self looking even farther down to keep the same area in my line of not-really-sight (no

t thinking about it; it's just natural?)... and I'm pretty sure that if I were a foot or so shorter, I'd have less broken teeth... and I'm rambling, sorry...).

It is long past time to restart this thread. This topic will remain

important and vital for the foreseeable future. I hope this thread does not wither away as quickly as it had before, but, if it does, I'll just restart it again

Thank you a million times over... This may very well be the highlight of the past two years for me (I think the only stretch of not-hell I've had since puberty was 2003, simply because I could still focus on writing then... I can bearly focus on anything but stream-of-consciousness rambling anymore (ala this p

ost... maybe my requests for low testosterone were answered only with regards to my mind... if it didn't ruin my already practically over life, it'd be funny...).

One other observation: of all the the boys that I know that either wanted castration (Jay and myself) or were castrated, all of us are gay, and self-identified

at an early age, age 6 for myself, all of the other before they were 10. I don't kno

w what the overall corollation is, but I'd very interested in how many of those seeking castration during childhood were self-identified a

s gay at an early age.

I contend that I am not gay. I could imagine someone reading some things of mine and wondering... I'v

e convinced myself I'm asexual... (though I think I still have serious issues here... homosexuality wouldn't be one... Hmm... I think I'm extremely confused.).

(I think though that Holland might have found the right age, 14, but without blockers, that can be maddeningly too late.)

I started my research at fourteen... just last week I was wearing a shirt I got before that research. Fourteen... way too late. (Though I didn't give up on trying to find out more until sixteen... at that point it was apparent that I had transformed completely. ).

My biggest problem, though? Secrecy, for sure. I've only ever managed to get myself to say how I felt on the matter twice--once in seventh grade (... ironically enough the year I was in choir...), as more of an offhand comment in a "your greatest desire" discussion in the cafeteria... which was promptly laughed off and forgotten. The other was to someone who manages to understand me better than most everyone else in the world (which isn't saying much ... ) and avidly disagrees with how I treat the subject (granted, my treatment of the subject is probably obsessive... but it is my whole life I'm talking about...). My parents? Despite the fact that I know full well that they're pretty accepting and such... I've always shi

ed away even when I tried setting up an opportunity to talk about it. I

f anything, I've managed to make the possibility of addressing the issue more disasterous by how I react whenever someone says something about "You're an ad

ult" or something similar... Responsibility is good and all, but the term has more of an identity meaning for me...).

I mean, these are children. They are not capable of adult decisions.

Probably a stupid point for me to make, but... a rare few migh

t be. (though that doesn't mean we should let those that aren't screw themselves over... :O ).

Are you admitting that you should have been allowed to change as a child, to make an ADULT decision regarding your gender before you knew what you wanted

for sure? Oh, sure, you know now, but really, did you then? Be honest and try to remember...

Considering that since that day it's been one of the biggest things in my mind with only a few changes (Of the confirming type that I would be more than glad to have not gone through)...

... Then again, I question the adult-ness of my current decisions...

(No, actually, I think I should also po

int out that at some point in there, I think when I was thirteen, I asked God to kill me if I changed my mind on this issue. :O ... Rash (and childish?), definitely, but I'm glad I said it then, because I don't think I'd say such a thing now despite feeling the same way... and something about that is important somehow... ... ... ... ... ... )

This is referred to as "Identity Fixation" in all of the adolesent Psychology textbooks, and no matter how a

n individual is supposedly "destined" to turn

out, we just DO NOT have the scientific expertise to foretell their future and allow them to fixate themselves with no other option than the decision that

they make as children. If a child has IDENTITY FIXATION,

they become a very unhappy adult? But, then, is this what YOU are dealing with now?

Well, since I like to stick to my vows regardless of when I made them...

*points up*.

But I haven't seen the term "identity fixation" before. I think we finally found the condition that fits me... Thanks! Wait... ..... Yeah, thanks! *goes to research*

There is plenty of time to 'change' your sex after you are 18.

Did anybody here KNOW for sure what they wanted at 18? If so, why did you not start then?

Too late. (That, and I am sorely lacking in independence... )

Plix... I can't pick something to quote from post 61 without quoting the whole thing, but I feel obligated to point at you and declare you super freaking awesome. (I tried writing a rant on a similar topic with identity-ness thrown in ... a year or two ago? and it wound up way long... you covered a large chunk of it in a really short post, and better!).

... And now we're considering how to affect the DSMV... I feel like I'm getting in the way, now...

[John (imported)]

Hello!

Would have been interesting to know if a male to female TS would get a better result if she was allowed to get rid of the testes before getting an adult.

Greetings

John

[Aldoverico (imported)]

Hello,

One thought is that first, boys of 15 now are way more sure of what they want than boys at 15 when I was that age. Also once they have been subjected to all this information it seems they can make a decision.

If it means a career in singing that they want, why deprive them of that?

Many people are erotic, and enjoy very different things. I don't think we can use the regular society criteria for making most of our decisions. At a very young age, I realized I got tremendous rushes and pleasure from "different" things.

Aldoverico

[considering (imported)]

Putting aside the medical and projected sexual ramifications, the base issue here, or so it seems to me, is simply do we as adults trust someone that young to make what me might call an "informed" decision on an issue that will impact the rest of their life? And, yes, some young people are more mature than others and some have a clearer grasp of what they want and do not want. Castrated or not, they do not remain children or boys. Maturation is a process that deals as much with a person's ability to accept and implement information as it does whether they are possessed of testes. From my own experience I would say that I was certainly capable of making that far reaching a decision. (I once asked Douglas Mac Arthur if he felt one could compare his retreat from the Philippines with Napoleon's abandoning his troops in Moscow. For an eight year old, that strikes me as an adult question and suggests I was at least capable of considering the issue.) The choir boy model is interesting and, to some very viable. But if one were to candidly survey the Vienna Boy's Choir I suspect you'd not find many who would want castration. At some point in their growth they would eventually look more like the Vienna Men's Choir specializing in Counter-tenor singing.

This is a discussion that is very much of this century. Three hundred years ago castrati were created without their permission but frequently their family's agreed as it meant their son would have a better education, a better life and receive benefits-learning to read and write for example-virtually unavailable to the public. A successful Castrati was a fixture of society, admired for their talent, their education and, not infrequently, their erudition. But independently, would they have chose that path? We cannot know. Today we can know. The problem that faces us as adults is how to know if a child even understands that this is a potentially available option though it may be something that they, in an unformed thought, have considered. Many boys do not really understand the relationship between their formative testicles and their future as fully fledged males. It can, of course, be explained to them but after that you need a truly perceptive child to comprehend what they've been told and then relate that as a positive to themselves. Beyond that it's up to the child to persuade the adult that this is something they want and have reached it with no assistance from others save for basic information. That's a great deal and yet that is, I believe, the path things must take. Certainly if they are involved in things where physical changes they will undergo drive what they do this may be easier to understand. The Choir Boy Model again. But if they are not they must have access to a free and open forum that is at once neutral and supportive of their thoughts. Apart from those who from an early age know that they are of the wrong gender, the larger group is, like myself, comprised of men who wish to stay genetically male without any feminine traits but also desire a non-specific gender assignment. To us castration is not only useful but an imperative. Sadly we don't discover this until we are already in the confusing scheme of what others think about what is often regarded with revulsion.

Few Eunuchs can easily as part of general conversation reveal that fact about themselves and have it an accepted norm. As I approach my own orchietomy I am aware that while I'm confident in what I'm about, I've inadvertently committed myself to hours of trying to calmly explain to others something they simply do not wish to understand. So it is with the wise child who sees castration as something desirable to them. Their peers are going to make their lives hell and most adults are going to be aghast. Yet, as the argument goes, this is the optimal time for the operation to be done. At my age it's an afterthought which may bring consolation to me but also brings medical issues that will have to be faced for the rest of my life. I envy the boy who knows that his life is already different and to be castrated to achieve whatever level of sexuality-or lack of it-he wishes is the correct thing to do.

And it's back to the prime question: Do we trust a child, even one of thirteen or fourteen, with this decision and then assist them in going forward to their goal? Certainly it's on a very individual basis but, prior to that, there needs to be sufficient numbers of adults who will accept the child as the mature and then allow them the freedom to be what they want. I do no know and I hope I'm never confronted by a child who wants what I want. And that's probably hypocrisy on my part but it's a fraught situation and as passionately as I want that child to have that of which they are sure I equally do not want to permit something that will have consequences that will not be what it is they thought they wanted.