Castrating Boys And Adolescents

[neuterme (imported)]

Hi, I have edited this post to tell everyone that I am leaving the eunuch archive. I have done my research and do not believe becoming a eunuch is moral or for me. Thank you everyone for your support

[C van D (imported)]

I wish that I had been castrated at an early age rather than as an adult. I really wanted to be castrated at 9 and asked and had some school friends try to do so but we did not know how. We tried to squeeze them to destroy them but could not do so. I never wanted my nuts then or later but did not get castrated til late 30's. It has been wonderful but could have been better if done back then.

If "Boots" had had more receptive parents, his wish to be castrated at age 9 might have been fulfilled. I was a tad younger - seven I guess - when my Mom brought me up to speed on that particular subject. It was bath-time and I'd asked about my little balls and what use they were, to be told the following "You could have them taken out by a doctor; afterwards you'd be a cute little boy, your voice would never change, and because your little "doodle" would never grow any more, you could never do the thing that boys do with girls, that starts a baby".

Unless the procedure had been available I don't think she would have told me this.

[dometoo (imported)]

for myself castration was on my mind as young as age 5 now that i have become a eunuch I have no regrets save one... I regret that when I first wanted to stop being a boy (age 5) I could have been able to achieve that goal. I have never wavered from this desire/need and I am certain that if I were able to have been castrated at 5 I would not regret it. the point is that there are some that were simply born equipped wrong and when they recognize it is when they recognize it. age is inconcequential it is the certanty that matters.

I remember trying to amputate my penis and testicles when I was about 5.

I wasn't allowed to touch sharp knives, and a butter knife just wouldn't do the job.

[Blaise (imported)]

What an enduring and vital thread. I still have no answers to the issues and questions. I do recall mourning, when I was about twelve, the changes that I knew would happen and that I very much wanted to happen. Change itself often involves a sense of loss, I think. But the issues here are deeper and much more difficult for me to uinderstand than I seem able to understand them.

[Blaise (imported)]

Putting aside the medical and projected sexual ramifications, the base issue here, or so it seems to me, is simply do we as adults trust someone that young to make what me might call an "informed" decision on an issue that will impact the rest of their life? And, yes, some young people are more mature than others and some have a clearer grasp of what they want and do not want. Castrated or not, they do not remain children or boys. Maturation is a process that deals as much with a person's ability to accept and implement information as it does whether they are possessed of testes. From my own experience I would say that I was certainly capable of making that far reaching a decision. (I once asked Douglas Mac Arthur if he felt one could compare his retreat from the Philippines with Napoleon's abandoning his troops in Moscow. For an eight year old, that strikes me as an adult question and suggests I was at least capable of considering the issue.) The choir boy model is interesting and, to some very viable. But if one were to candidly survey the Vienna Boy's Choir I suspect you'd not find many who would want castration. At some point in their growth they would eventually look more like the Vienna Men's Choir specializing in Counter-tenor singing.

This is a discussion that is very much of this century. Three hundred years ago castrati were created without their permission but frequently their family's agreed as it meant their son would have a better education, a better life and receive benefits-learning to read and write for example-virtually unavailable to the public. A successful Castrati was a fixture of society, admired for their talent, their education and, not infrequently, their erudition. But independently, would they have chose that path? We cannot know. Today we can know. The problem that faces us as adults is how to know if a child even understands that this is a potentially available option though it may be something that they, in an unformed thought, have considered. Many boys do not really understand the relationship between their formative testicles and their future as fully fledged males. It can, of course, be explained to them but after that you need a truly perceptive child to comprehend what they've been told and then relate that as a positive to themselves. Beyond that it's up to the child to persuade the adult that this is something they want and have reached it with no assistance from others save for basic information. That's a great deal and yet that is, I believe, the path things must take. Certainly if they are involved in things where physical changes they will undergo drive what they do this may be easier to understand. The Choir Boy Model again. But if they are not they must have access to a free and open forum that is at once neutral and supportive of their thoughts. Apart from those who from an early age know that they are of the wrong gender, the larger group is, like myself, comprised of men who wish to stay genetically male without any feminine traits but also desire a non-specific gender assignment. To us castration is not only useful but an imperative. Sadly we don't discover this until we are already in the confusing scheme of what others think about what is often regarded with revulsion.

Few Eunuchs can easily as part of general conversation reveal that fact about themselves and have it an accepted norm. As I approach my own orchietomy I am aware that while I'm confident in what I'm about, I've inadvertently committed myself to hours of trying to calmly explain to others something they simply do not wish to understand. So it is with the wise child who sees castration as something desirable to them. Their peers are going to make their lives hell and most adults are going to be aghast. Yet, as the argument goes, this is the optimal time for the operation to be done. At my age it's an afterthought which may bring consolation to me but also brings medical issues that will have to be faced for the rest of my life. I envy the boy who knows that his life is already different and to be castrated to achieve whatever level of sexuality-or lack of it-he wishes is the correct thing to do.

And it's back to the prime question: Do we trust a child, even one of thirteen or fourteen, with this decision and then assist them in going forward to their goal? Certainly it's on a very individual basis but, prior to that, there needs to be sufficient numbers of adults who will accept the child as the mature and then allow them the freedom to be what they want. I do no know and I hope I'm never confronted by a child who wants what I want. And that's probably hypocrisy on my part but it's a fraught situation and as passionately as I want that child to have that of which they are sure I equally do not want to permit something that will have consequences that will not be what it is they thought they wanted.

Well said. Thank you.

[raymar2020 (imported)]

I had not seen this thread before, although I have been here for some time.

I feel the need to share my own experiences regarding this issue.

I still have undeveloped undescended testicles, that have never made sperm or Testosterone. I also have viertually no scrotum. As a child there were several discussions about removing the non functional orbs,but my father was opposed to that and refused to allow it.

Instead , I was given small does of Testosterone, which seemed to kick start puberty. I'll not go into all the details, but will say that some of the treatments I was subjected to were barbaric at best. Until all this started I was quite comfortable with my body, and my lack of balls. The continued treatments made me re-think my feelings about how my body looked.

Over time, I have discovered that I really am content with my lack of visible balls, and that if I had them , I would likely be somewhat gender dysphoric. I mean that should I wake up tomorrow with a normal sized pair of hangers there, I'd immediately seek someone to remove them. They are NOT correct for me .

As a "therapy " when I was a child and teen, I was introduced to several other balless boys. I came to see the way that we looked as normal, and those with balls to be abnormal. I still prefer to see a man without testicles.

One of the boys I met was one of three brothers ,all born without testicles. Michael was the youngest, and by coincidence also a strong singer. He opted not to go thru the changes he saw his brothers endure from taking HRT. Today he is 43 , still has that youthful soprano voice, and is a long limbed, slightly out of proprtion slim guy with a very short thick penis. He has always been able to achieve an erection , albeit, not super firm, and not every time he would like to. He is in a commited relationship with a partner of 15 years, and is just a "bottom". He does orgasm, but it is basically dry.

I am also more recently acquainted with a young man , who thru an adult friend got androcur starting at age 12. The result was that he did not mature at all genitally. At age 20 he had experienced no growth from the time he started taking androcur. He claims that while he did have a few erections as a teen, he was not motivated to make use of them, as he is a true gender dysphoric. Shortly after his 20th birthday, he traveled to Thailand, and had all his male genitalia removed. By request he was left totally smooth. He has no regrets, and had planned to do just that from age 12. He has even had a relationship briefly with another nullo.

Personally , I feel that we can't just allow boys to wake up one morning, and decide to have themselves castrated. Too many kids would be ruined for life because of a whim. I do believe that as a whole society must accept that there are people who wish to be neither truly male or female. We must have a system in place to accomodate these people. Teen aged boys quite rightly should not be able to make this decision without good guidance about the effects, and the limitations that it imposes.

The best thing would be to have a system where, boys can be educated about the advantages/ disadvantages of castration, so that

they can make an informed decision.

This same program should be available to grown men too. there is not resaon that is acceptable, why a boy/man can't make the decision whether or not to have testicles.

I also want to say that the castrated boys I knew when I was a kid have all remained fairly close. All are successful , and very content with their lives, and not having balls has not been a stumbling block for any of them.

Raymar

[John (imported)]

Hello!

Those boys meeting the knife early in the life, how do they sound when talking, I know that they easily in several cases could sing soprano but when talking do they sound as average men or do they talk as sopranos too?

Greetings

John

[erikboy (imported)]

About 10-12 years ago there was an irc chatroom #eunuchs on efnet. i used to be a regular visitor there. There i talked to A guy of my age who claimed to be an eunuch since age 12.

His body did not tolerate testosterone. When his puberty started he got very sick. I don't know how doctors found out the reason. There must have been somebody like dr. House

But the only real cure was to remove source of testosterone. As there was no other cure, he was castrated. He had not developed a normal male deep voice yet. I got so curious about that I wanted to hear him speaking.

So I asked him if he would like to talk with me. He had one condition, that he will call me as he did not want to reveal his number.

After several failed attempts my deskphone finally rung.

It was true. Over phone it was difficult to say whether the speaker was male or female. His voice was clearly high pitched. It was rather a boys voice, but there was sometheing else in his voice. Certainly not a male falsetto.

I think that his voice was too stable and strong for a boy.

that was my experience.

Soon after that I lost contact to him as his e-mail provider went bankrupt or something and the eunuch channel vanished.

Nonuts, please, if you recognize me... please send me a message

E.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

All,

As the originator of this thread, it is good to see this level of interest in this topic.

First, in answer to the questions of appropriate age, please see: Transition in Childhood (

http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13058)

Though this covers BtG and GtB instances, the same thing should be considered an appropriate approach to BtE issues.

My original thinking was it would be best to directly castrating a boy with thorough evaluation to determine if it should be done. This was before I was aware of androgen-blockers like Androcur. After considerable discussion in this thread, I have come to agree with the position that pub

erty can and should be delayed un

til the boy can make an informed decision.

Given that Dr. Spack allows transitioning to begin at age 16, after several years of review (usually by the time they come to his clinic, the gender is not in question, the child has been living in the way they feel is proper for them), that should be the appropriate age for a BtE also. Again, Holland starts transitioning at 14, with a 100% success rate. That success rate speaks volumes about a child's maturity about an issue that this important to and about them.

Started before puberty, Androcur (and other blockers) allows a boy to remain that, while he observes other boys of his age becoming (young) men. If he remain comfortable as he is, rather than becoming an adult as his classmate are, castration, at 16 (or 14? Tim...), is then appropriate. This the same age that is the baseline for BtG and GtB.

It is now (generally) recognized, by psychiatrists, that sexual identity (male or female) is set by the age of three. From the discussion here, it seems that the common rough age for a boy's desire to remain a boy is between 7 to 10. Tim seems to have been around 9 or so.

See Jesus' article about a NPR broadcast concerning the issue for "presenting" (transgenderism in children) for further reference:

Support Your NPR Station (

http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

100952), for an excellent review of preadolescent gender identity disorder and how to address it.

Here comes the biggest issue of those that boys that simply want to remain boys - "presenting." In each of the cases cited in the above referenced threads, the children (BtG) "presented" at between 2 and 3 year of age. For BtE, there is no ready way to make it clear to parents that they want to remain boys.

At 14 though, Tim was able to convince his mother (single parent) that castration was appropriate. Without the overriding dominance of a father, he was allowed to make the decision on his own (though decision is not really accurate, I guess acknowledgment is more accurate). The one thing he never told me directly was when he came to the realization that he wanted to remain a boy. I think though, it was around 9 or 10 (not atypical). He was very lucky that his testes were never functional, since at 14, it would have have otherwise been too late in all likelyhood. (see previous posts about him for additional information). He was castrated shortly after he turned 15.

In his case, I think music and remaining a boy are indivisible. From my many discussions with him, it was more that just his singing that was part of the reason to remain a boy. He saw other boys mature into (young) men, and he felt that it would be wrong for him to become one. The key indicator here is that he is comfortable as he is, he watched the boys around him mature physically, even before he would have hit puberty, and never wanted to be like them.

Medically, it would not have happened, but that was not discovered until he was castrated, he had vestigle testes. It's why puberty had not started by the time he was 15.

A unique intersection: A boy with a love of music and the desire to remain a boy, a consenting mother, and a lack of functional testes. The lack of either of the latter would have made the first impossible.

I have a very serious concern about "bricks meeting balls," yet I do not know what the best method is that can allow boys to make their concerns known before age 16, when it has become too late to prevent the changes already occurring.

I would like to get Dr. Spack involved in the BtE issue, but I would not know how to approach him about this topic. As with BtG, the danger of self-mutilation for BtE is just as real.

See my initial thread and post #3 in this thread, and you can understand why I started this thread.

There remains a considerable difference in age between "knowing" and being to act on that knowledge, but the child should not be forced to live in the body that was forced on them by parents and doctors because they were too young to have any input into the discussion (if there even is any).

We need many more Dr. Spack's and the retirement (though not soon enough) of "Doctors" like Dr. Zucker.

My 10-million question: how can boys really get their needs across?

It will take a lot of education of doctors, like Dr. Spack. to understand that there is, in fact, a third group, BtE, who's needs must be addressed in an appropriate manner, without the need for a trip to Holland.

The last time I chatted with Tim, his voice was up to high E, and he slowly lowering the bottom end of his range. He does not regret, at all, the choice he made. He was on in the last month or so, but I was not on at the same time.

Contrary to Consider's statement above, castrati are not counter-tenors, they are sopranos that are able to develop a broader voice range, higher in range than a counter-tenor (even sopranos), clearer, brighter and richer. The lungs become larger giving him more power, the voice box gets slightly bigger as the boy continues to grow slowly, and the vocal cords get tighter as a result, giving the boy the unique range and qualities. Since the boy's voice is in his natural range, not a falsetto, the voice can develop more vibrato.

Counter-tenors are tenors that use falsetto to reach into the alto range. Their voice is flat in comparison to a soprano, and even more so to a castrati's, and the vibrato is very weak or missing. It would NOT the Vienna Men's Choir, the voices would still be that of the soprano (and castrati, if there are any in the choir; I have come across statements that claiming one or the other).

A "high" tenor does not reach the sames octave that a counter-tenor does, but no falsetto is used, so the voice remains strong, bright and clean within the singer's normal range.

Very few boys in the Vienna Boys Choir would want to become castrati (I would think, though a position on that choir is an extreme achievement, so?), but that choir might have boys like Tim that want to stay boys because of their discomfort in the changes wrought on by puberty, and their depth of involvement in music, similar to Tim's. Vienna to Holland is not a long trip.

As i have said many times before, a BtE remain the boy forever, the change wrought by puberty never occur, simply nothing changes.

They remain as they are when blockers are started or castration (accidental of medical) is performed. Typically, they appears to be age 12 or so, but with the development of longer limbs. Tim's still appears to be 14 or 15, but his limbs are a bit longer now. Without castration, he would have been about 5'7, with the longer period for limb growth, he will be around 5'11.

In his eyes, nothing about puberty was worth the changes. For him, remaining prepubescent was not ever a "choice" and an appropriate course of action was castration. From all he told me, since he first started discussing castration, was his seriousness about it, and his present comfort level with his "choice." It was not a choice, but the answer waiting for him to find the right question.

What is crucial here is that boy be given the knowledge about puberty, and with that the option of going on blockers, until they are in a better position to insure that the decision is the correct one. The approach I like best is that starting at age 8, during annual, or semi-annual physical exam, the boy be given the necessary information to start him thinking about his on-coming physical development. Few boy would see any need to delay puberty.

This is alsothe time when he should start to watch for things that could indicate possible issues in his soon-to-be developing genitals. How many teenagers developed testicular cancer because they were never told how to check their genital health and so they never looked for lumps. I was never told any of this (no, I remained healthy, but still...). These visits are also the perfect time to insure that the boy is ready to start puberty, or that he does not want it yet (if at all).

With the age of the start of puberty getting lower (more growth/hormonal ingredients in animal feed is the suspected cause), the body is getting mature faster than the mind can. Thus it becomes more imperative that BtE's be identified as early as possible.

As I have observed in the past, few boys will express any desire than to become men. The few that do have to be treated in a manner appropriate to meet the child's needs. And that is NOT the approach "Dr." Zucker takes. (I have nothing but contempt for the man and his potentially devastating methods he and the others that use them.)

The three males I have known that this topic is most relevant about: Tim: Very happy as a castrato; Alex: Very happy as a nullo (Amsterdam again); and Jay, still looking at back at age 12 with at least a little regret.

For all of us: The answer await us, it for us to find the question.

-YC

[A-1 (imported)]

YC,

Please comment on THIS QUESTION (http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html), then.

Everyone, please take your time exploring this site and the other sites connected to it by links.

The information is very interesting...

[John (imported)]

All,

As the originator of this thread, it is good to see this level of interest in this topic.

At 14 though, Tim was able to convince his mother (single parent) that castration was appropriate. Without the overriding dominance of a father, he was allowed to make the decision on his own (though decision is not really accurate, I guess acknowledgment is more accurate). The one thing he never told me directly was when he came to the realization that he wanted to remain a boy. I think though, it was around 9 or 10 (not atypical). He was very lucky that his testes were never functional, since at 14, it would have have otherwise been too late in all likelyhood. (see previous posts about him for additional information). He was castrated shortly after he turned 15.

In his case, I think music and remaining a boy are indivisible. From my many discussions with him, it was more that just his singing that was part of the reason to remain a boy. He saw other boys mature into (young) men, and he felt that it would be wrong for him to become one. The key indicator here is that he is comfortable as he is, he watched the boys around him mature physically, even before he would have hit puberty, and never wanted to be like them.

Medically, it would not have happened, but that was not discovered until he was castrated, he had vestigle testes. It's why puberty had not started by the time he was 15.

A unique intersection: A boy with a love of music and the desire to remain a boy, a consenting mother, and a lack of functional testes. The lack of either of the latter would have made the first impossible.

I have a very serious concern about "bricks meeting balls," yet I do not know what the best method is that can allow boys to make their concerns known before age 16, when it has become too late to prevent the changes already occurring.

I would like to get Dr. Spack involved in the BtE issue, but I would not know how to approach him about this topic. As with BtG, the danger of self-mutilation for BtE is just as real.

See my initial thread and post #3 in this thread, and you can understand why I started this thread.

There remains a considerable difference in age between "knowing" and being to act on that knowledge, but the child should not be forced to live in the body that was forced on them by parents and doctors because they were too young to have any input into the discussion (if there even is any).

My 10-million question: how can boys really get their needs across?

It will take a lot of education of doctors, like Dr. Spack. to understand that there is, in fact, a third group, BtE, who's needs must be addressed in an appropriate manner, without the need for a trip to Holland.

The last time I chatted with Tim, his voice was up to high E, and he slowly lowering the bottom end of his range. He does not regret, at all, the choice he made. He was on in the last month or so, but I was not on at the same time.

As i have said many times before, a BtE remain the boy forever, the change wrought by puberty never occur, simply nothing changes.

They remain as they are when blockers are started or castration (accidental of medical) is performed. Typically, they appears to be age 12 or so, but with the development of longer limbs. Tim's still appears to be 14 or 15, but his limbs are a bit longer now. Without castration, he would have been about 5'7, with the longer period for limb growth, he will be around 5'11.

In his eyes, nothing about puberty was worth the changes. For him, remaining prepubescent was not ever a "choice" and an appropriate course of action was castration. From all he told me, since he first started discussing castration, was his seriousness about it, and his present comfort level with his "choice." It was not a choice, but the answer waiting for him to find the right question.

The three males I have known that this topic is most relevant about: Tim: Very happy as a castrato; Alex: Very happy as a nullo (Amsterdam again); and Jay, still looking at back at age 12 with at least a little regret.

For all of us: The answer await us, it for us to find the question.

-YC

Hello again!

Have you ever met the three guys live and seen how the world around them react when for instance they come into a petrol-station to pay for the fill-up and talk in a soprano-voice on a spot where you should be adult to do things. Another situation I would be interested to see/hear about is if an eunuch with soprano-voice calls somewhere where it will be a business-relation where the seller being called up must be sure he/she sells to a grown up as youngsters aren´t allowed to handle money without parents signing for them.

Greetings

John

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

YC,

Please comment on THIS QUESTION (http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html), then.

Everyone, please take your time exploring this site and the other sites connected to it by links.

The information is very interesting...

Since it is located in a very small section of that country, with no apparent instances elsewhere, it appears that it is indeed, an endocrine abnormality localized to that area. The critical causal element in these cases appears to be a lack of 5-alpha Reductase, normally present during gestation, and remains present during a male's life cycle, that causes the physical identity of the his body.

"Specific inhibition of 5-alpha Reductase is the mechanism of action of the prostate drug, finasteride (Proscar), which in adults, shrinks the prostate without affecting the male phenotype."

There is no discussion in the article cited above about the fertility of those born with this condition. Keep in mind that physical maturation as male does not, in itself, indicate the fertility of the adult.

Also, as noted in the article, even though puberty occurs, it is truncated, with limited development of male characteristics. On that basis, sterility is likely, since the testes did not develop prior to the onset of puberty. It would seem that 5-alpha Reductase is only present that one period, which was not discussed at all in this article.

Keep in mind that the researchers involved with this project are United States trained specialists, with normal biases (as would be expected), in a part of a country that has different customs than those common in the United States. That the children in this study act as girls, before puberty, and males after, cannot be determines strictly be US standards.

There is no comment is this article as to the source of the 5-alpha Reductase, does it develop during childhood, instead of gestation, or is it introduced into the child prior to puberty; I expect the former. This would indicate a genetic defect localized to that area, by causes unknown.

I consider that the article that you reference is much too limited in information present to make any determination within the scope of this discussion to cover the core subject of this discussion.

I would, however, ask that others active in this discussion pursue this topic and provide any other information that parallels this type of childhood development.

-YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Hello again!

Have you ever met the three guys live and seen how the world around them react when for instance they come into a petrol-station to pay for the fill-up and talk in a soprano-voice on a spot where you should be adult to do things. Another situation I would be interested to see/hear about is if an eunuch with soprano-voice calls somewhere where it will be a business-relation where the seller being called up must be sure he/she sells to a grown up as youngsters aren´t allowed to handle money without parents signing for them.

Greetings

John

See: (Natural) Male Soprano (Michael Maniaci)

(http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13257)

I would think that this would not be any more of an issue for Tim and Alex than it is for Michael. In the age of online transactions and credit/debit cards, there is probably little reason for that to be an issue. The are numerous endocrinological eunuchs that would have similar issues, if there are any issues.

Jay passed through normal puberty, so this is not an issue for him.

Keep in mind that the perceived age of a person, at least in public is based more than the apparent physical age. Some youth appear to be 15 when they are 18 and 18 when they are 15. the Choice of clothing can impact the appearance of the age of the individual, though for Tim and Alex, both appearing to be be under 15 (Tim is 18 now [Dec. 11, 1989], Alex is above 21). Neither have ever expressed any issue of this nature to me. I think this particular issue is of little concern to either of them.

Michael does have the advantage in that he developed in all ways except the change associated with his voice. I would expect the Michael was already a solid (i.e. well into training, practicing, singing) soprano when puberty hit, and he was able to continue singing without interruption. It strikes me as unlikely that he would suddenly take to singing because his voice remained in the soprano range.

Comments from others?

-YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

During the discussion throughout this thread, the understanding has been that when one desires to become a eunuch, removal of the testes is required to achieve complete, permanent, and non-reversible, physical castration is required.

See Castration Primer

(http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

10168):

How Do Male Hormones Work?

The primary male sex hormone is testosterone. Testosterone, a steroid, is made by the interstitial, or Leydig, cells of the testes. Production and secretion of testosterone increases sharply at puberty and causes the development of the secondary sexual characteristics (e.g., beard, genital enlargement) of men. Testosterone is also essential for the production of sperm.

Production of testosterone is controlled by the release of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the anterior lobe of the pituitary gland, which is in turn controlled by the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) from the hypothalamus. LH is also called interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH). Thus:

Hypothalamus --> GnRH --> Pituitary --> LH --> Testes --> Testosterone

The level of testosterone is under negative feedback, that is, a rising level of testosterone suppresses the release of GnRH from the hypothalamus.

One drug, a vaccine, Norelin, would appear to be an excellent course of action for a boy that can convince his parents and doctors to allow androgen blockers until he he is 16 or 18 (Dr. Spack allows transitioning at 16, so 16 would be appropriate in this type of case).

See the section in the Primer on Norelin.

This is an experimental drug that has not been released to market. It is a vaccine that serves as a GnRH inhibitor, thus blocking testosterone production.

With no GnRH, there is no luteinizing hormone produced, thus the testes no longer function. It is common that when the testes fail, they shrink and are often absorbed by the body. All other conditions expected in a castrated male will occur. For a physical boy (on blockers if needed, regardless of age), he would remain as he would have been just prior to puberty at the time he is vaccinated. (See the negative feedback cycle described above.)

Thus Norelin creates anti-bodies that behave in a similar manner as other anti-bodies, but the anti-bodies created in this case react to GnRH, as if it is a virus. This results in using a normal bodily function to cause the cessation of production of GnRH without the use of either feminizing drugs, (potentionally on an on-going basis) or permanent anti-androgen use. With Norelin the creation of GnRH ceases, and permanent natural castration occurs.

Since it is a vaccine, a single dose is required for lifetime effect. For a "boy" like Tim, this would have been a perfect course of action. He had little interest in either keeping or losing his testes or scrotum (the testes and scrotum were removed). What he was seeking was to prevent puberty, this was achieved by traditional medical castration.

The only reservations I have about Norelin are:

1.) Replicas of unknown origin, quality, and safety. Of all of these, this is the one I consider most important.

2.) Availability: will this become available to boys and men other than those who need for clearly obvious medical reasons (cancer, for example). Restrictions by US Federal law?

3.) Cost until the patent expires.

4.) Inappropriate use: how is access to Norelin kept out of hands of boys who are too young, before puberty, to be acting on the need to be castrated without any supervision, though given any boy other than those who are in need of castration, as has already been much discussed, I think this is of little, if any, real concern. (Dr. Spack, please help.)

-YC

[C van D (imported)]

Text Deleted

I am indebted to Yankee Clipper for starting this thread. The various contributions confirm the assumptions I made when beginning the "Simon" series of stories some time ago.

If there is indeed a right time to castrate boys, it is before puberty. At age (say) 11 - 12, the skin of a boy's scrotum is fine and delicate, the spermatic cords have not thickened, and there are fewer, and smaller, blood vessels. So whether the procedure involves taking the testicles right out, or destroying them painlessly by injection, it is a less serious matter, surgically, than when puberty has already kicked in.

One of the disputed after-effects concerns erections. There is a great deal of anecdotal material (the tale of the First Eunuch and many others) suggesting that sexual potency is not affected. However, the contributions in this thread all point to the fact that, after castration, a boy's facility for "schoolboy erections" - those 2- or 3-inch efforts that little girls find so amusing at bath-time) is lost. This makes sense. What would have been the point of castrating page-boys in pre-revolutionary France (some say the practice still goes on) if they could still get erections afterwards and "do it"?

Some of the contributors say that not only are the boys unable to masturbate, but lose all desire to do so. Again there is anecdotal material on the other side. Shakespeare's Mardian in "Antony and Cleopatra" admits to very strong sexual longings, though he can do nothing, and the young man in Voltaire's Candide, castrated in Naples as a child, makes a similar admission. It would be interesting to explore this further.

C van D

[erikboy (imported)]

Have you ever met the three guys live and seen how the world around them react when for instance they come into a petrol-station to pay for the fill-up and talk in a soprano-voice on a spot where you should be adult to do things. Another situation I would be interested to see/hear about is if an eunuch with soprano-voice calls somewhere where it will be a business-relation where the seller being called up must be sure he/she sells to a grown up as youngsters aren´t allowed to handle money without parents signing for them.

this is tough problem is true for guys that are not gone through puberty. The guy I talked 10 years ago, said me that nobody takes him seriously if met face to face, due to his boyish appeareance, despite he was around 25 or 26 or so at the time. Can't remember anymore.

He told me that at school, especially at highschool it was like a hell. He was weaker than other and easy object to make fun of.

For me it seems that everyday life is not so easy for BtE..

Society does not accept such eunuch boys.

E.

[A-1 (imported)]

....

One of the disputed after-effects concerns erections. There is a great deal of anecdotal material (the tale of the First Eunuch and many others) suggesting that sexual potency is not affected. However, the contributions in this thread all point to the fact that, after castration, a boy's facility for "schoolboy erections" - those 2- or 3-inch efforts that little girls find so amusing at bath-time) is lost. This makes sense. What would have been the point of castrating page-boys in pre-revolutionary France (some say the practice still goes on) if they could still get erections afterwards and "do it"?

Some of the contributors say that not only are the boys unable to masturbate, but lose all desire to do so. Again there is anecdotal material on the other side. Shakespeare's Mardian in "Antony and Cleopatra" admits to very strong sexual longings, though he can do nothing, and the young man in Voltaire's Candide, castrated in Naples as a child, makes a similar admission. It would be interesting to explore this further...

C van D

...FIRST OF ALL, C van D, THIS IS NOT directed primarily at you, I AM, however, using YOUR QUOTE as a seeming consensus of this thread, and please DO NOT take this personal, any of you, because I am raling against society that has placed all of us where we are today... O.K.?

Regardless of what one may think, theorizing about the feelings of a child who has been abused in such a manner is PURE conjecture.

Consider that the brain is the sex organ that controls the sex organs. AS is the case with infants who are blinded at birth and shortly after, if the mechanical sight function is restored during adulthood, or after the neurological developmental stage where sight develops, and the nerve signals start reaching the part of the brain that 'sees', they are still blind because the part of the brain that 'allows' them to see has not developed properly. This area of the brain atrophies if not stimulated at the proper development stage.

Consider the subject at hand and KNOW that if in addition to the so-called 'involuntary' reflexes that causes sexual arousal that are being curtailed, the part of the brain that functions as an erogenous zone will also not develop if an intervention is performed at a formative stage of human development.

Therefore, describing, appreciating or having the 'joy of sex' for such an individual is just as meaningless as a blind person describing, appreciating or having the color red, green or blue presented to them.

The situation of a child or an adolescent coming to a physician and saying "Doctor, I want you to remove my eyes" is NOT dissimilar to a child or adolescent coming to a physician and saying, "Doctor, I want you to cut off my sexual organs."

If you want to get biblical remember, the Bible says something to the effect of, "...if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out." I believe that this is pretty fucked up if taken literally, which is another reason why funDamnedMentalism of ANY religion should be banned.

Regardless of the method that you use to justify castration and/or sexual mutiliation of a minor, of either sex, it is rightfully designated a crime and it is rightfully illegal. Turning the minor to a mindset that causes them to make such a request is not much better than convincing them that they need to be blinded and then seeing to it that it happens. This is child abuse and the same kind of psychological abuse that causes this can also be used to incite children to homocide and/or suicide.

Abuse is abuse and regardless of how you look at it. IF a child, male OR female, actually expresses such a desire to be blinded or neutered to a medical practicioner, then they are a deeply disturbed individual, and are in DIRE need of Psychiatric intervention.

The same goes for a child that is homocidial or is suicidial.

I cannot believe that this thread has went this far and that the mindset of the E.A. regarding adulthood and choice is being visited upon children before it is even suspected, let alone KNOWN if they are transgendered, gender dysphoric or have some other sexually related trait that MAY cause them problems in adulthood.

Damn this MODERN medicine! How could you justify a DOUBLE MASTECTOMY on a FIVE-YEAR-OLD female who carries the BRAC-1 or BRAC-2 genetic trait for breast cancer? This neutering children before puberty is not a damned bit different.

IF YOU ARE SERIOUSLY PROPOSING THIS THEN WHERE IN THE FUCKING HELL IS YOUR HUMANITY?

HAVE YOU NO MERCY ON A CHILD? WOULD YOU MAKE THE SAME TYPES OF ARGUMENTS TO HAVE A CHILD BLINDED OR TO CAUSE THEM TO KILL OR TO BE SUICIDIAL?

A child will not even consider sexual matters until adolesence unless they are exposed to sex by abuse. Neither will they consider being blinded unless we connect some sort of abusive process with their ability to 'see'.

Neither will they be suicidal or homocidal unless they are conditioned to HATE themselves or others...

Regardless of your DENIAL, pressuring children over matters sexual is abusive, and IF IT HAPPENED TO YOU, IF YOU HAD THESE FEELINGS AS A CHILD, THEN YOU WERE ABUSED.

THINK ABOUT IT...

soapbox::shakemitk

[moi621 (imported)]

The following is from a local newspaper story.

It seems sports minded high school boys like

to surprise each other with a hard kick to the

privates expecting the sports jock shield to be

in place.

Well, one receiver who was not wearing his

shield had one nut ruptured and removed and

there was questions whether the other one

could be saved. No follow-up story was seen.

Thus an adolescent may be castrated.

All legal and proper in a developed western nation.

[A-1 (imported)]

The following is from a local newspaper story.

It seems sports minded high school boys like

to surprise each other with a hard kick to the

privates expecting the sports jock shield to be

in place.

Well, one receiver who was not wearing his

shield had one nut ruptured and removed and

there was questions whether the other one

could be saved. No follow-up story was seen.

Thus an adolescent may be castrated.

All legal and proper in a developed western nation.

Yes and if a responsible school board sees this as an on-going problem they should MANDATE that the kickers be REMOVED from the ALL school athletic programs PERMANENTLY, no exceptions.

That, would stop it.

As a matter of fact, in EVERY STATE, this is Assault and Battery and it is illegal. The offender can be brought up on juvenile charges and expelled from school for Assault and Battery on another individual.

They can also be sued in a Civil action if permanent damage is done

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

This tough problem is true for guys that hav

e not gone through puberty. The guy I talked 10 years ago, said me that nobody takes him seriously if met face to face, due to his boyish appearance, despite he was around 25 or 26 or so at the time. Can't remember anymore.

He told me that at school, especially at high school it was like a hell. He was weaker than others and was an easy object to make fun of.

For me it seems that everyday life is not so easy for BtE..

Society does not accept such eunuch boys.

E.

In every school, there should be a broad policy that makes that type behavior unacceptable, and enforce that policy strongly. (Most school districts in the US are finally starting to adopt such policies, but not fast enough. States like Vermont is very aggressive about this issue. UK districts are far better about the issues involved.)

I can see how those issues could be a problem for BtE's. It depends on how much support and protection the parents, school, and those around him can and are willing to provide. This is true for all boys, whether it be natural, accidental or medical, when it before puberty or during early puberty. (Klinefelter's Syndrome seemed have to be treated in adulthood in the past. I don't know how it is treated now.)

When I was in high school, boys were hitting puberty about 2 years later than they do now, and teasing was rare back then. Some boys hadn't (visibly) started puberty until they senior year, most by 15 though. The school, in general, teachers, classmates and friends would have it stopped any teasing immediately.

The quick answer, the one Tim uses, is that he had cancer (not true, but...) as a boy and lets it go at that. People, especially adults, know what that means. I believe that more people are becoming aware that testicle cancer can occurs in young people, mostly due to Lance Armstrong's case.

Tim has always participated in sports where litheness and speed, more than brute strength is required: swimming, track and field, gymnastics and he is a fast winger for rugby (that one surprises me a bit!). He also likes to bike when he has the time. He is in his last term in upper form at his public (tuition-based) in Wales. Since his mates in school "know" he had cancer, he doesn't get teased at all, his team mates and friends are quick to stand up for him when the rare occasion occurs, and all the boys know the school has a very strong policy prohibiting such behavior. Violation of the policy can result in expulsion.

Once the first photographic ID is obtained, like a driver's license or a passport, age is readily provable. Usually the driver's license is the first one obtained. That one usually does not require a photographic ID. Many schools, states, and countries start issuing photographic ID's to youth at a very young age.

Alex never commented about having any difficulty with that while he was in high school, before moving to Holland, where he lives now.

Jay went through puberty, so he doesn't have that problem.

Do we have anyone on the Archive that is a legal adult that never went through puberty?

-YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

...FIRST OF ALL, C van D, THIS IS NOT directed primarily at you, I AM, however, using YOUR QUOTE as a seeming consensus of this thread, and please DO NOT take this personal, any of you, because I am raling against society that has placed all of us where we are today... O.K.?

Regardless of what one may think, theorizing about the feelings of a child who has been abused in such a manner is PURE conjecture.

Consider that the brain is the sex organ that controls the sex organs. AS is the case with infants who are blinded at birth and shortly after, if the mechanical sight function is restored during adulthood, or after the neurological developmental stage where sight develops, and the nerve signals start reaching the part of the brain that 'sees', they are still blind because the part of the brain that 'allows' them to see has not developed properly. This area of the brain atrophies if not stimulated at the proper development stage.

Consider the subject at hand and KNOW that if in addition to the so-called 'involuntary' reflexes that causes sexual arousal that are being curtailed, the part of the brain that functions as an erogenous zone will also not develop if an intervention is performed at a formative stage of human development.

Therefore, describing, appreciating or having the 'joy of sex' for such an individual is just as meaningless as a blind person describing, appreciating or having the color red, green or blue presented to them.

The situation of a child or an adolescent coming to a physician and saying "Doctor, I want you to remove my eyes" is NOT dissimilar to a child or adolescent coming to a physician and saying, "Doctor, I want you to cut off my sexual organs."

If you want to get biblical remember, the Bible says something to the effect of, "...if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out." I believe that this is pretty fucked up if taken literally, which is another reason why funDamnedMentalism of ANY religion should be banned.

Regardless of the method that you use to justify castration and/or sexual mutiliation of a minor, of either sex, it is rightfully designated a crime and it is rightfully illegal. Turning the minor to a mindset that causes them to make such a request is not much better than convincing them that they need to be blinded and then seeing to it that it happens. This is child abuse and the same kind of psychological abuse that causes this can also be used to incite children to homocide and/or suicide.

Abuse is abuse and regardless of how you look at it. IF a child, male OR female, actually expresses such a desire to be blinded or neutered to a medical practicioner, then they are a deeply disturbed individual, and are in DIRE need of Psychiatric intervention.

The same goes for a child that is homocidial or is suicidial.

I cannot believe that this thread has went this far and that the mindset of the E.A. regarding adulthood and choice is being visited upon children before it is even suspected, let alone KNOWN if they are transgendered, gender dysphoric or have some other sexually related trait that MAY cause them problems in adulthood.

Damn this MODERN medicine! How could you justify a DOUBLE MASTECTOMY on a FIVE-YEAR-OLD female who carries the BRAC-1 or BRAC-2 genetic trait for breast cancer? This neutering children before puberty is not a damned bit different.

IF YOU ARE SERIOUSLY PROPOSING THIS THEN WHERE IN THE FUCKING HELL IS YOUR HUMANITY?

HAVE YOU NO MERCY ON A CHILD? WOULD YOU MAKE THE SAME TYPES OF ARGUMENTS TO HAVE A CHILD BLINDED OR TO CAUSE THEM TO KILL OR TO BE SUICIDIAL?

A child will not even consider sexual matters until adolesence unless they are exposed to sex by abuse. Neither will they consider being blinded unless we connect some sort of abusive process with their ability to 'see'.

Neither will they be suicidal or homocidal unless they are conditioned to HATE themselves or others...

Regardless of your DENIAL, pressuring children over matters sexual is abusive, and IF IT HAPPENED TO YOU, IF YOU HAD THESE FEELINGS AS A CHILD, THEN YOU WERE ABUSED.

THINK ABOUT IT...

soapbox::shakemitk

FISRT OFF, SEXUAL IDENTITY OCCURS AT 2 TO 3 YEARS OF AGE (REFER TO DSM-IV). GO BACK AND READ VARIOUS QUOTES AND THREADS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE BOYS ARE INITIATING THE CONVERSATION, JUST AS BtG's AND GtB's ARE, AND WHEREIN THE BLOCKERS ARE STARTED BEFORE PUBERTY AND IT IS AT 15 OR 16 THAT THE YOUNG ADULT (IN MIND SET) IS ALLOWED TO START TO TRANSITION TO THE SEXUAL IDENTITY OF THE BOY OR GIRL INVOLVED. SEE: Transition in childhood, Q&A with Norman Spack, The Boston Globe, March 30, 2008.

(http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13058)

DON'T CONFUSE THE "Simon Series" WITH THOSE HERE AND OTHER BOYS THAT WANT TO STAY BOYS OR WHICH THAT WISH THEY COULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO. YOU KNOW WHAT PUBERTY CAUSES, SO I DON'T HAVE TO EMUMERATE (AGAIN) WHAT I DIDN'T WANT.

SPEAKING OF SUICIDE RATES: THE RATES ARE MUCH HIGHER AMONG ADULT TRANSEXUALS THAN EVEN THAT OF GAYS AND LESBIANS. IF A BOY WILLINGLY VOICES A STRONG DESIRE TO REMAIN A BOY, BLOCKERS SHOULD BE USED UNTIL HE REACHES 16, IF HE IS STILL COMFORTABLE AT 16 AS A BOY WHILE OTHER BOYS AROUND HIM ARE BECOMING YOUNG MEN, THEY ARE READY, TO TRANSITION TO CASTRATION, OR IF YOU PREFER, THEY CAN WAIT UNTIL 18, THOUGH SPACK STARTS PART 2 AT AGE 16 FOR BtG AND GtB. PART 1 INVOLVES BLOCKERS. ESTROGEN FOR BtG, OR TESTOSTERONE FOR GtB IS ONLY STARTED DURING PART 2. SIMILAR THAT ARE SLOWING BECOMING INTO WIDER USE FOR BtG'S AND GtB'S, BtE'S SHOULD BE TREATED IN THE SAME MANNER. NO MORE, NO LESS.

IN THE PROGRAM IN HOLLAND, WHEN BOYS WERE STARTED ON BLOCKER BEFORE PUBERTY, ALL 100 PARTICIPANTS TRANSITIONED TO THE SEX THAT THEY SELF IDENTIFIED AS, ALL 100 HAVE BEEN SATISFIED WITH THE OUTCOME.

THE MEMBERS HERE ARE STARTING TO DISCUSS THAT THEIR DESIRE STARTED BEFORE PUBERTY, AS MINE DID. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT TO MY PARENTS, BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ME INSANE AND WOULD HAVE TREATED ME THAT WAY, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE REAL ABUSE. I STILL HATE EVERYTHING PUBERTY CAUSED ME.

DON'T PRESUME TO SPEAK FOR THOSE OF US THAT HAVE BEEN DOWN THAT PATH.

IT WAS NOT ABUSE THAT MADE ME DESIRE CASTRATION, I JUST DIDN'T WANT PUBERTY. I JUST KNEW 2 THINGS, 1.) I DIDN'T WANT PUBERTY AND CASTRATION WOULD PREVENT IT, AND 2.) THAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN THOUGHT TO BE INSANE.

MAKING A CHILD WAIT UNTIL THEY ARE 16 OR 18 TO ALLOW THEM TO MAKE SUCH A DECISION THAT HE WANTED TO STAY A BOY IS IMPOSSIBLE. IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REVERT FROM A MAN BACK TO BEING A BOY. START THE BOY ON BLOCKERS, THEN WHEN HE IS OLD ENOUGH, LET HIM DECIDE WHICH HE WANTS: PROGRESS THROUGH PUBERTY, OR BE CASTRATED AND REMAIN A BOY.

THE TINY PERCENT OF BOYS THAT EXPRESS SUCH A DESIRE, HAS TO HAVE A VERY STRONG DESIRE JUST TO GIVE VOICE TO THAT DESIRE TO HIS PARENTS AND PROFESSIONALS.

TIM WANTED TO BE A BOY, AT 18, HE IS QUITE HAPPY AS ONE. ALEX 1S 23 OR 24 NOW, AND HAS BEEN HAPPY AS A NULLO SINCE HE WAS DONE IN AMSTERDAM WHEN HE WAS 18. (HE STARTED GETTING ANDROCUR OUT OF CANADA ON HIS OWN BEFORE PUBERTY.) JAY HAS NEVER BEEN HAPPY WITH THE FACT THAT HIS FATHER FORCED HIM TO GO THROUGH PUBERTY. YOU DECIDE WHICH CASE WAS ABUSE.

I SELDOM FEEL THAT THIS TYPE OF MAKING A STATEMENT IN THIS MANNER SHOULD BE USED, YOUR COMMENTS MADE ME FEEL IT WAS APPROPRIATE.

-YC

[Blaise (imported)]

YankeeClipper has asked, very clearly and articulately, an important question. One that I hope will be taken seriously by the members of the Eunuch Archive and responded to with thought, rather than strong emotion.

. . . .

I'm now convinced that "gender dysphoria" comes in more flavors than the psychiatric establishment currently wants to think (though I've talked with some who are open to change). The psychiatrist's bible, the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition) includes a diagnostic category for gender dysphoria:

There is recognition of male-to-female and female-to-male transsexual identity - though there's an emphasis on treatment to "cure" it, rather than any acceptance of its reality.

. . . .

I have communicated with individuals who initially thought that they were male-to-female, but only later discovered that, not only were they not female, they were neither polar gender. I have heard of two female-to-male transsexuals who went through painful and expensive gender reassignment, only to discover that their ideal gender was "eunuch".

DSM-IV clearly states that many individuals with "Gender Identity Disorder" can be identified by age 4 or 5.

What sort of treatment OUGHT to be available to such children? In the Netherlands, they can receive hormone blockers to prevent puberty in the "wrong" gender, but any surgical reassignment must wait until they are adults and can make the legal decision themselves. I have heard of a case in England of a 10 year old male-to-female who is currently on androgen blockers (at the expense of the National Health Service).

Tentatively, I had termed this form of gender dysphoria "Choirboy Syndrome". Not because the individuals wanted to become catrati to preserve their voices, but because they were choirboy age when they were first clearly aware of their "eunuch" gender identity.

I was surprised (and pleased) to discover that Charlie Anders, in her novel Choir Boy (Brooklyn: Soft Skull Press, 2005) refers to the same syndrome when Dr. Tamarind says to the story's hero:

The novel clearly has a strong autobiographical component. Charlie Anders is the publisher of Other magazine and is a male-to-female.

What OUGHT to be done about a very real population? I'm certainly far from reaching my own conclusion. I'd like to hear some good discussion of the issues raised.

This thread makes me question fundamental questions from many points-of-view with the result that I am still as confused as when I first read the initial post.

Tough questions. What is nature? What is at play? Where to begin? I still don't know. Nvertheless, I think that I knew myself when I was quite young, even if my forebrain had years more to mature. I did have questions about maturing. I knew that I wanted to mature, but I knew it came with a price.

This thread is worth the entire experience of being part of this forum. Great thread.

[Paolo]

Watch that caps lock, please.

Thanks.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

The following is from a local newspaper story.

It seems sports minded high school boys like

to surprise each other with a hard kick to the

privates expecting the sports jock shield to be

in place.

Well, one receiver who was not wearing his

shield had one nut ruptured and removed and

there was questions whether the other one

could be saved. No follow-up story was seen.

Thus an adolescent may be castrated.

All legal and proper in a developed western nation.

Yes. That was true in my days in school. I'm not surprised it continues. Jocks will be jocks. Though baseball was, and still is, my favorite sport, my size and frame were better suited to soccer. Cups were optional back then for both sports. (Actually, most student athletes are also required to excel in their class work or they are suspended or removed from the team.)

When I was junior high, one player, age 12, was coming down (from my school) from trying to block a jump shot while another player (from the other town's school) was going up to try to complete the shot. The boy going up had damage to his shoulder, the other boy's testes were not salvageable. In basketball back then, no one expected that such an accident could occur, so none of basketball players wore cups. After high school, I lost contact with him, but when he graduated at 18, he had not started HRT. He didn't like the idea of taking HRT for the rest of his life.

-YC

[moi621 (imported)]

FISRT OFF, SEXUAL IDENTITY OCCURS AT 2 TO 3 YEARS OF AGE (REFER TO DSM-IV).

-YC

So sure you are as to use bold face and fancified fonts ? !

Did I do the quote right Yoli ?

There is a better argument that sexual identity occurs in

the development of the embryo, before one terms it a fetus.

At a critical time, a splash of male hormone directs the

development of the genitalia as well as certain anatomical

brain structures.

DSM is so much PC garbage.