A question to the eunuch community re: Adrenal Testosterone

[SethRose (imported)]

I have spent the better part of the last two weeks catching up on the forum, and in the interests of full disclosure I will make it known that my interest here is academic. I stumbled on some interesting findings while debunking acupuncture and I am trying to make sense of my results. I am amazed by the levels of education, maturity and compassion enjoyed within this community. Please know that you all have my deepest respect for this, but I am even more so in awe at the level of commitment demonstrated by those that have sought the eunuch lifestyle. While our present culture may not embrace you, I am certain that in the fullness of time any community with your traits will grow to conquests much greater than mere acceptance.

Please permit me to pick your brains and life experiences to better advance my own understanding of hormones in our lives.

My first question to you all is directed to those of you who have been surgically (or Burdizzcoed successfully) castrated. The negative side-effects experienced with a loss of testosterone production can seem quite severe, but in some cases it is less so even without the aid of HRT. I would like to hear from people in this community, who are not presently on HRT, describe their level of negative side-effects and indicate their weekly adrenal stimulus. By adrenal stimulus I mean anything that gets your adrenalin pumping; sports, online competitive action video-games, high-risk recreation, any competitive activities etc... Please also include your age and the age you were when you were castrated. If there is anything else you feel is worth noting please include it.

EXAMPLE

Age: 34

Age at Castration: 32

Reason for Castration: *If you care to share, this was a great idea Terri had that I hadn't considered! It will provide some personal insights that may be useful.*

Negative Side-Effects: weight gain, breast tissue growth

Stimulus: I play Counter-Strike with my friends after work for about an hour on weekdays.

Thank you very much in advance to all respondents, I plan to participate more fully with the community once I have established how best to assume a roll here.

[tugon (imported)]

Welcome to the Eunuch Archive. Also, thanks for the compliments about the community. You are correct in your observations. One thing you might want to explain is what you plan on doing with the information you are gathering. Is it only for your personal information and education on the matter? Or will you use it for a published study. The more you share with us about the use of information the more will share with you.

[SethRose (imported)]

*** DISCLAIMER - READ THIS: I AM NOT TRYING TO SAVE MY OWN ASS FROM LEGAL LIABILITY; I'M TRYING TO KEEP YOU FROM HURTING YOURSELF!

The information provided herein does not constitute clinically sound medical advice and is based almost entirely on anecdotal evidence. Western Medical Science has only just begun to understand the relationship between adrenal stimulus and testosterone production. It should also be noted that the Adrenal gland is responsible for producing estrogen, cortisol and obviously adrenaline. It is believed that the gland regulates its production of all of these based on environmental factors. Cortisol is believed to be responsible for abdominal body fat as the body attempts to insulate from a stressful environment (remember the body doesn't understand we face stresses like credit card payments, it thinks we must be stressed because we're facing an ice age, potential famine, or some other environmental concern that we've been trying to deal with for the last 300,000 years.) It is known that coristol is only released in stressful situations that you believe you are unable to immediatly escape from. Videogames do not produce cortisol, financial debt does. Persons with diabetes may find immediate alterations in their blood-sugar levels as DHEA has been linked with reduced insulin resistance(a good thing). Persons taking insulin should run far away from this post. High testosterone levels can result in baldness. Adolescents attempting to increase their testosterone level can stunt their growth among a number of other concerns; it is not my recommendation for anyone under the age of 21 to attempt to make use of any of this information. ***

Certainly, that is a fair request. I am not in the habit of giving medical advice but the most positive contribution I think I can make here is by suggesting that any eunuch would benefit from an adrenal-heavy lifestyle. The adrenal gland produces a small amount of testosterone... nothing on the order of the testis, but some. It should be enough to affect metabolism, which seems to be the most common complaint of either weight gain or low energy.

I understand you all have individual reasons for wishing to reduce your testosterone levels; obviously this would be inappropriate if you're following a spiritual or transgender path, but understand I am talking about minute levels. For persons wishing to simply stop being male or to explore an androgynous life, the small levels of testosterone produced would, potentially, be a boon to a healthy life but wouldn't be likely to inspire your sex drive (which takes orders of magnitude more testosterone to fuel).

All of this ties into the research I was doing, and given unlimited resources would fly you all out to my palatial resort to have you all play video games and rock climb to see just how much testosterone you could produce with just the adrenal gland, and what the minimum level would be required at various stages of life. This sort of thing would also make huge leaps in our understanding of "Andropause"(male Menopause), but alas I have neither the unlimited resources or even the palatial resort.

What I do have is Ancient Chinese secrets that my Western education tells me aren't supposed to work, and certainly not in the way they are being explained by practitioners.

I am reticent to reveal too much. As I said I was doing a study debunking acupuncture, the sort of thing young Physiologists do all the time. There is a lot of interesting science behind debunking all sorts of homeopathic and "Ancient Chinese" remedies if you're into that sort of thing, but it is gravely arrogant of us. You can find a very recent one that confirms to an extent that you can observe poking needles anywhere will relieve pain because you're elevating the endorphins and all the other wonderful that our body pumps out to cope with someone poking needles into you. The actual acupuncture points are, according to that study, irrelevant. My research was similar but looking for different results all together; acupuncture isn't just about pain relief. For thousands of years the Chinese have been using it to address many of life's ailments.

So when presented with information that supports a homeopathic practice and you are a young Physiologist who has spent a great deal of your life just trying to scrape your way to this point, you have two options available to you:

a) Let everyone know, get your sponsoring institution a bit of press and maybe some funding "because hey the kid might be trying too hard, but at least he's doing something... I don't know why these other guys in coats are here at all, to be honest, maybe they're his assistants?" This, naturally, really upsets the other guys in the coats. Making the rest of my career an uphill battle and actually doing any research to further explore my findings next to impossible... Or worse find that my observations are in any small way wrong and thus discrediting me as someone who falsifies results to support pseudo-sciences.

b) Go rogue. So now I no longer have the comfy sponsorship, but I am able to continue my research to fully understand what it is I am observing, without explaining to anyone why I am continuing this study that should have been done 6 months ago and why haven't I done something useful like go assist that other guy with the coat that keeps getting them the nice press.

So, I guess this falls under the "personal information and education" category.

Since you cannot confirm nor deny anything that I have just typed, let me point out a few things you can observe about me from these posts.

1) I have a command of the language that is often only reserved for gentleman.

2) I have an expressed interest and demonstrated basic knowledge of the sciences (and the processes through which science really happens).

3) I am potentially mad, but in that eccentric and humorous way.

It is therefore safe for everyone here to assume that I am a Mad Scientist of dubious education with a gentleman's tongue and an amusing disposition. Potentially delusional or an out right liar, but hey... at least I'm a nice enough fellow.

I give you my word as a Mad Scientist that none of the information obtained will be used in the development of laser-equipped sharks or other nefarious machinations in the pursuit of power, destruction, or global domination.

I hope that my, clearly, insane ramblings have amused you all and hope that you will facilitate my initial request before the Coats find me and try to give me my meds. I am adrift trying to explain what seems obvious to acupuncturists and completely ludicrous to Real Scientists(r). Your first hand accounts will provide insights as no one has (in recorded Western medical history) asked this question of Eunuchs.

Thank you!

[bryan (imported)]

Hi SethRose,

Here you go:

Age: 49

Age at Castration: 48 (total time as eunuch: 19 months)

Reason for Castration: High libido combined with [unrecognized] high-intensity transsexualism.

Negative Side-Effects: unstable emotions / mood swings.

Stimulus: None whatsoever; certainly nothing that gets adrenalin going. Very sedentary aside from long walks.

Terri

[tugon (imported)]

Well, I rather enjoyed reading your post. I do enjoy your command of language and you are possessing a gentleman's tongue.

I am 50 years old and was castrated at 41 years of age. I have never used any HRT. There were three reasons for my castration. The primary reason was never having been comfortable as a male but with no desire to be female. The secondary cause was an out of control sex addiction. My tertiary desire to be a eunuch was hoping to end any need for sex as I was exiting a profoundly abusive relationship. I wanted to be finished with men.

Post castration I experienced several changes. Hot flashes were the first sign of a changing body. Lack of ejaculate and reduced desire in sex came next. An incredible need for love and affection replaced the sex drive. I have experienced weight gain but have struggled with weight both with and without testicles.

I am still able to have erections and dry orgasms. I enjoy sex with my partner but my desire for sex is now based on my emotions to my partner more than physical attraction. I have no desire to be with anyone else and that has been one of the greatest benefits of castration for me.

[SethRose (imported)]

You said that you wanted to be "finished with men" and then explained about your healthy sex life which you find rewarding in new (and by the way you sound, amazing) ways. You honestly made me a bit envious.

So I went back and thoroughly read through your post "Male & Female both opposites" as well as the many interesting replies. I guess that you decided you weren't finished, after all, despite your previous abusive relationship. This sounds like a healthy rebound, despite your new found need for love and affection, which you categorized as "incredible". Do you still find these feelings to be excessive and you've just managed to cope with them over the years? Or is it a trait you accept as your own and have found a loving man that accepts you? The reason I ask is that women who would categorize themselves as having an abusive past and an excessive need for love and affection often do not cope well and find themselves in numerous abusive relationships trying to satisfy an insatiable need. I'm wondering if something can be learned from how you managed to be as happy as you sound now.

Do you still have hot flashes? I can tell by your posts that the high emotional state persists, but you use it to your advantage. You do an excellent job of conveying the emotions to readers.

Is the sexual activity the only activity that gets your heart pumping? Do you enjoy any recreation that might be firing off the adrenal gland?

[(db) (imported)]

Hi Seth Rose,

You appear to be applying relevent thought into the eunuch condition, but I am not so sure that the questions you pose will best draw a useful response.

Are the adrenal glands not controlled by the hypothalmus, and this why there can be a situationally fast response via the circulatory system ?

The adrenal glands can produce only tiny amounts of testosterone on an ongoing basis, and indeed might be capable of direct reactionary peaks, but I put it to you that after outputting raised testosterone levels the adrenal glands go into rest mode, for this is what I feel I experience if the testosterone gets burned.

In other words I can tick along quite nicely, and work away with some physicality too, but if I am hit with a reactive situation I am over-loaded with hormones and then downed by a deficit afterwards ! As if the adrenal testosterone based energy variation is much greater and can lead to a faster acting deficit in time because it is no longer smoothed by the testicular flood.

[SethRose (imported)]

Hello deadballs, thank you for your kind words. I'm afraid I am pressed for time this morning or I'd give this the sort of answer it truly deserves.

Your observations are interesting and perhaps exactly what I am looking for. What specific activities are you engaged in when you notice this hormonal behavior? Could you please describe in as much detail as possible the activity and the hormonal response throughout the entire process up to and beyond the "reactive situation" you refer to?

I actually found this website in the course of trying to find any sort of information on the subject. It appears that no one has had any curiosity for this specific question before, which is extremely exciting... for me this is like when an Archeologist discovers an entirely new patch of land to start playing with. Often in many fields of science today we have questions that are already answered by our predecessors, so we spend much of our time just reading what others have already researched before us. We get to the answers faster, but it is a constant reminder that our field has been mined quite thoroughly by people who got a jump start on us. I don't know what up-and-coming Paleontologists are going to do in 1,000 years when all of them have already uncovered all the dinosaur bones, which is kind of sad.

[Uncle Flo (imported)]

I don't know what up-and-coming Paleontologists are going to do in 1,000 years when all of them have already uncovered all the dinosaur bones, which is kind of sad.

They are welcome to start looking for my bones. --FLO--

[(db) (imported)]

Hi SethRose,

By reactive situation I mean stressful situations or a feeling of being under pressure - where the body readies itself for a brain sensed need to cope.

Just like running on adrenaline and never feeling unwell until you take a holiday - I can cope with the need part, but if I've used up what little testosterone is metabolised I could feel a much greater endocrine exhaustion for say a day until my body re-stabilises.

I also think that stressful situations can release/burn up more adrenal testosterone than working physically, thus without testicular/body stored testosterone it is easier to run into a temporary deficit. Not that this worries me, I always bounce back, so just commenting.

[SethRose (imported)]

Ahh alright I get what you're saying now!

I don't think you think I'm thinking for what I think I think I'm thinking.

If I were trying to make Eunuch Super Soldiers, the points you raise would be problematic. This is no less fascinating to hear, I've never heard this before and it is good food for thought! This is probably an answer to a question I haven't even figured out that I need to ask.

The more I read this forum the more need for some alternative to HRT; which scares me in the way that McDonalds scares a nutritionist. It won't kill you outright, but neither will McD's fries... and once you know what's really going on in there you don't want anyone to needlessly put their body through that. Since, you've got the T practically pouring out between your ears there ought to be a much healthier alternative that might be as simple as adding a little excitement to your life for few minutes out of the day. Does that make sense and better explain where I'm going with all of this? It shouldn't require extremely high stress situations that would force the body to have a "come down". Okay, I know for a fact that the first few weeks you'd have moderate shakes during the exciting activity if you've lived sedentary for a long while, but you'd feel so "alive" you wouldn't care.

After I've patented an HRT Alternative and completed my initial research I should have the funding for the Eunuch Super Soldiers... with fricken laser beams!

[(db) (imported)]

My stated experience might not be universal !

You mention T pouring out between the ears, but that is no more than the usual flight or flight response.

When a body system is not used to running on T, then any T can have a much greater priming effect, and I personally prefer to not experience it.

I don't feel any need to have a little (physical?) excitement every day, and I have no wish to be a Super Soldier, so I wonder what it is you think you would like to offer and test upon those who accept your invitation.

You appear to be offering the recovery of distinctly Male activity, but that is not what everyone here wants.

[SethRose (imported)]

You mention T pouring out between the ears, but that is no more than the usual flight or flight response.

This should be all that is needed to completely replace HRT for those that do take HRT to minimize the side-effects of castration. I don't want to fear monger, but if you can regulate your own natural T at very minimal levels it is much better for you than introducing artificial T... and if nothing else, cheaper!

When a body system is not used to running on T, then any T can have a much greater priming effect, and I personally prefer to not experience it.

I don't feel any need to have a little (physical?) excitement every day, and I have no wish to be a Super Soldier, so I wonder what it is you think you would like to offer and test upon those who accept your invitation.

You appear to be offering the recovery of distinctly Male activity, but that is not what everyone here wants.

I am afraid we are having some miscommunication, and that is probably my fault for typing very late at night. The whole Super Soldier thing was a poorly formulated joke, with a pop culture reference to "fricken laser beams" from Dr. Evil, in the comedic series of films featuring Austin Powers. Please pay this no attention, as it was merely a whimsical sense of humor that often enters my writing late at night. I do not wish to suggest anyone do any "Male' activity or any other activity that they would not enjoy, only that spending 15-30 minutes in the day doing something exciting could be all that is needed to reduce the need for HRT for those that take it.

The real complication here is that I have directed my inquiry to those of you that have made such profound peace with your situation that you have no desire for HRT, and most seem not to want any T at all. Which is fine, I admire those of you that have taken upon an entirely new hormonal balance in stride. I am not suggesting that those of you not taking HRT need anything at all. Unfortunately I have to eliminate people taking HRT from this question just like someone researching anything similar in women would have to eliminate women taking birth control pills; the introduction of foreign/synthetic hormones to a system plays merry hell with research. Some fascinating studies by researchers (that are quite senior to me) have been discredited entirely because of issues like this.

The alternative course of action is to ask people taking HRT to stop taking HRT and attempt to introduce excitement into their lives for a couple of weeks and see if that eliminates the same side-effects they are taking HRT for, but this crosses boundaries that I don't think I am prepared to cross without much more confirmation of my theory.

[(db) (imported)]

Hi SethRose,

What do you mean by 'excitement'.

everyday social interaction

cerebral excitement sexual

masturbationary exercise

physical exercise fitness

physical exertion work

so many options.

[SethRose (imported)]

Hi SethRose,

What do you mean by 'excitement'.

everyday social interaction

cerebral excitement sexual

masturbationary exercise

physical exercise fitness

physical exertion work

so many options.

Yes there are many options, I am not limiting the scope.

[tugon (imported)]

You said that you wanted to be "finished with men" and then explained about your healthy sex life which you find rewarding in new (and by the way you sound, amazing) ways. You honestly made me a bit envious.

So I went back and thoroughly read through your post "Male & Female both opposites" as well as the many interesting replies. I guess that you decided you weren't finished, after all, despite your previous abusive relationship. This sounds like a healthy rebound, despite your new found need for love and affection, which you categorized as "incredible". Do you still find these feelings to be excessive and you've just managed to cope with them over the years? Or is it a trait you accept as your own and have found a loving man that accepts you? The reason I ask is that women who would categorize themselves as having an abusive past and an excessive need for love and affection often do not cope well and find themselves in numerous abusive relationships trying to satisfy an insatiable need. I'm wondering if something can be learned from how you managed to be as happy as you sound now.

Do you still have hot flashes? I can tell by your posts that the high emotional state persists, but you use it to your advantage. You do an excellent job of conveying the emotions to readers.

Is the sexual activity the only activity that gets your heart pumping? Do you enjoy any recreation that might be firing off the adrenal gland?

Seth I should say that the need for affection and love was always a part of me but blocked by the sex addiction. As the addiction grew my need for sexual thrills overwhelmed any sense of emotional needs. Once my levels began to drop the sex addiction ended and a normal appetite for sex* and affection remained. The desire for affection was surprising and had an intensity as many things in life can when seemingly new. Almost nine years since castration and I am very comfortable with my emotional range. I am comfortable with my place in the world.

At the end of the period of abuse I was fearful of losing myself. No longer due to death but to dissociation. Mentally I would leave the situation or fall asleep when things were at their worst. I began to realize I was hanging by a thread and I sensed if abused anymore I might dissociate and not come back. Tugon has left the building. I did not know what my body would do if my mind was gone. Along with castration and my struggle to hold on to me I was able to break away from my abuser. I think what helped me from repeating that cycle was my relying on friends for love and support and not trying to find a romantic partner for many years. My first few years as a eunuch if someone would come on to me or if I was exposed to anything erotic I would have waves of nauseau. Sex was so ugly for so long that the thought of sex would make me sick. Healing was the thing I needed to do in order to be in love and make the right choice in partner. Of course I was able to choose a partner based on the quality of person and not how they could feed the addiction. Until self esteem is raised and abuse is stopped it would be easy to attract another abuser. Abuse for me started early in life and like some I became locked in a passive role.

As far as doing anything for adrenaline rushes having lived for years with a gun to my head was enough of a rush. Peace and quiet is what I strive for now. Passengers in my car do experience adrenaline rushes. You also asked about hot flashes and I only have them when consuming too much caffeine.

*normal in the sense of wanting to be with just one person.

[SethRose (imported)]

Thanks for the follow up, Tugon! I'm glad to hear you're happy where you are after all of that.

So then I take it you have no side-effects presently that are "negative", other than the caffeine induced hot-flashes (which might make for an interesting tangent later)? Do you think it is fair to describe your driving as "Exciting", i.e. forcing your utmost concentration as you whip through turns?

[tugon (imported)]

Seth one thing I have forgotten until recently is how my body reacts during release of adrenaline. During times of anger or fear I have lower back pain during the release of the adrenaline. This has only happened since becoming a eunuch and I will be asking my doctor if lack of testosterone causes my body difficulty processing the adrenaline. Did not know if this would be of interest and if anyone else has ever experienced pain during those times. I did not know if having lived long term under stress if this could be part of the cause?

[SethRose (imported)]

There is a whole area of medical arguments around back pain being caused by a number of physiological ailments. I won't venture any opinions on the matter, and instead would like to hear if anyone else has this symptom. Anyone else experiencing this?

Thanks for the additional information, always good to get as much as possible!

[(db) (imported)]

Strange that today is the first e-mail notification I have had for this thread since my last post.

I did check back but saw nothing via this computer. Not to worry.

Hi Tugon,

Testosterone can exacerbate back pain because of the way it increases muscle power, thus increasing pressure upon spinal discs and nerves.

Adrenaline (fight or flight) is well known to most effectively block pain sensations.

Long term stress and anger can together lead to irreversible damage of the spinal column through the masking of pain warnings and internal muscle pressures.

Hi SethRose,

I don't regard 'lesser back pain' due to adrenaline being a symptom of anything.

However I do think it likely that becoming an Eunuch can ease back pain due to the spinal musculature easing up on discs and nerves.

[tugon (imported)]

Thanks (db). The long term stress I was under have caused me to be numb to pain. I could easily go all winter without a coat because cold is a sensation I notice but am not bothered by. In the summer I like sunburns because the sensations when I touch my face or affected skin. I think that is why I was surprised over the pain when i am in the fight or flight mode. It eases up right after the situation is resolved but can be intense.