censorship

[bobweekend (imported)]

Please explain why my post asking for donations to help one of our family was deleted?

Rick has done a great deal for us and at a great risk to himself and his family.

Why is asking the community for help being censored?

Thanks,

Bob

[Losethem (imported)]

Yes mods, please do tell us. Grrr...

Please explain why my post asking for donations to help one of our family was deleted?

Rick has done a great deal for us and at a great risk to himself and his family.

Why is asking the community for help being censored?

Thanks,

Bob

[kristoff]

When I deleted the thread, I posted a reason. We do not permit advertisements (i.e., someone's shop) regardless of the benefit. Same with solicitations for any kind of financial support. We permit such posts only for support and maintenance of this site, i.e., if we need new software, etc. Beyond that, it don't go. That has been our long standing position here, and until such time as Eunuch Central decides to change it, that is what I will abide by. It is also our policy not to endorse, support or refer cutters unless medically qualified.

So I guess that answers the question

[Paolo]

In response to the technical issue, as someone wrote me up to clarify...which I will gladly do.

When a thread or post is removed in VBulletin, only the Admins / Mods can see it unless the Admin who deleted it used the "PHYSICALLY REMOVE" button. Only then is it truly gone. Krister and I, and Talula, etc., can still see the deleted thread in question with the explanation of removal. But a non-Admin user or guest would not.

I think this where the confusion comes in. I am sure that not all of the Admins realize this, unless you dig DEEP into the VB options and manual and read read read.

I only knew this from being such an old VBulletin jockey.

My advice - next time, edit the thread and put a red note in the original post and then close it.

[bobweekend (imported)]

Rick and family does need our help. email me for the link to where you can donate to the cause.

[Losethem (imported)]

Quite frankly I'm disillusioned with the staff of this website and it's the reason that I did not accept a position as chat room op when it was offered.

I usually keep my mouth shut but on this one I feel compelled to speak out. You keep spouting off that the only way to go is with Kimmel. Kimmel is a hack, does a hatchet job compared to the person we are trying to help. The person in question is medically qualified and had training from hospital staff to do so - he's a physicians assistant.

I didn't use Kimmel because I have read numerous accounts about how his office is filthy, instruments are rusty and overall a non-sterile environment. The photos I saw of Riverwind and TheFraj looked like their midsections went 18 rounds with Mike Tyson. The good doctor has lousy follow-up. This is in direct contrast to what happened with me and the person in question. By getting this done where I did, I had a sterile environment, lack of swelling (I only swelled to the point it looked like I had something inside the scrotum, much better than what I've seen out of the office in Philly), EXCELLENT aftercare and so on.

So this person that is medically qualified cannot receive help from the community because some folks that sit up in their ivory tower don't think he deserves it for getting caught - know why he's in jail? Not for lack of sterile environment, knowledge, or anything else. No some jerk turned him in for spite (and not someone like us). He is just as qualified if not more so than that quack in Philly, his only crime is he doesn't have MD after his name. He was one set of lessons short of that.

Fine call him a cutter, but the jerk in NC that turned him in did it for spite, pulled me and a whole bunch of other people into the investigation and now that we're asking for a small amount of assistance and/or compassion we get censored because it doesn't meet your arbitrary standard. What if I need assistance? Can I not ask for it? Or since I'm involved with this guy you'll censor that too? The cops here have threatened to charge me with stuff related to it. Thanks alot.

Go screw yourselves.

I'm sure this user that has been on here since the beginning of the archive will get banned now just for having the nerve to disagree with the ops. Go ahead, ban me and prove my point. Dissent from your opinion isn't allowed, at least that's what it looks like to me.

Bye.

[JesusA]

Rick and family does need our help. email me for the link to where you can donate to the cause.

A very real problem with any web site is deciding exactly where the boundaries of expression ought to be, and then enforcing them uniformly. Since the Eunuch Archive is entirely dependant on servers donated and maintained by BME, an essential decision is that there be absolutely NO direct advertising of anything other than BME services.

Rick Sciara is certainly important for many who are here - even though he is a "cutter", he is a well-trained one and is respected by several who have posted here. He, together with two of his associates, have been charged with a crime (castration WITHOUT malice) by the state of North Carolina. Many here would dispute both whether or not his actions constituted a crime and whether or not he should be charged at all for his actions on those who sought his services. See the thread Three arrested in NC for Castrations (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8736) for the original reporting on this case.

There have been previous posts here about the status of his case. A request for postcards in support of him was posted. This post telling readers here where to go in order to provide financial (and moral) support for what promises to be a very nasty court case is perfectly in order.

Dircect advertising of a site for making donations steps just over the line. It might be supported for a good cause, but the precedent is one that Kristoff decided was just a bit too far. Pulling it is not a statement about Rick Sciara, but about advertising on the Archive.

As an academic (medical anthropologist), I have written directly to Michael Bonfoey, the D.A. in Waynesville, North Carolina in support of Rick Sciara; as a moderator on the Eunuch Archive I would vote against the original post directly asking for financial contributions.

Sometimes it's a tough call....

[Uncle Flo (imported)]

As an individual I have posted comments on other sites decrying the prosecutions in North Carolina. I have no doubt in my own mind that it is an exercise in power by the authorities there. The suspects are getting a raw deal that can only be remedied in court. the case seems to be based not on the lack of medical proficiency but on the unusual statute in NC specificialy banning castration. There is also some confusion over the difference between with malice and without malice as they are different provisions of the law. I strongly suspect that the current neo-christian conservative political climate has more to do with this prosecution than does any respect for a law that hasn't been actively enforced for decades. An email to bobweekend will result in instructions regarding the matter of donations. --FLO--

[BossTamsin (imported)]

On a personal level I feel for, and sympathize with Rick and his family, and sincerely hope that they and anyone else involved with this case manage to escape what is a case of legal persecution. I would donate to help them if I could afford to, and wish them nothing but the best. I have no ill will towards them, or anyone else who does what they do.

However, that aside, the archive absolutely has to maintain an official stance against supporting cutters. This has nothing to do with personal feelings or any percieved animosity towards them. This has everything to do with the legal issues that surround them. Neither myself, nor any of those on the staff, have the legal or financial resources to withstand the legal difficulties surrounding cutters.

I agree that the law in this issue may not be just, and the lack of licensed, capable medical professionals who are willing to perform voluntary castrations is absolutely abhorrent. However, if we officially support and encourage the commission of illegal acts, we risk having the site shut down, the personal property of myself and others siezed, or even facing lawsuits or charges ourselves.

And so, while I do personally encourage members to contact bobweekend to see if they can help, officially this site has to remain against cutters.

If you think this is an arbitrary judgement from people sitting "up in their ivory tower", and cannot see our reasons behind the decision, then I would be most happy to allow the endorsement of cutters here. Provided of course that people are willing to put their money where their mouth is and sign agreements to provide the Eunuch Archive with a legal defence fund, as well as paying any legal bills related to the determination of our level of risk for such an act, plus the costs of any legal issues which arise as a result. Once I know that neither the EA nor any staff (including myself) are at risk of losing everything, I will be most happy to allow endorsement, critiquing, support, or referrals to cutters.

[Losethem (imported)]

What all of you are failing to see is that there is a MARKED difference between asking for assistance to help these folks now that they have been charged with a crime than there is for letting them advertise their services out in the open. This wasn't an advertisement for services, this was a plea to help the entire family that lived in that household. The police didn't just arrest the so-called cutter, they arrested and charged equally everyone living in the household.

No, I feel quite justified in my anger at the arbitrary censorship of the message. As I've said previously, I usually keep my mouth shut at the unbelievable stuff the archive staff does, but this time I'm not shutting up, even if it costs me my access to the site.

I will not sit by and watch the staff support Kimmel while they censor us trying to help the family involved in the case here. Especially when Kimmel should be shut down for his lack of sterile procedure. You allow advertising ad-infinitem for Kimmel's services even though he jeopardizes people more than the person we are trying to help. Kimmel is known to pick up dirty instruments from the floor and keep using them as if they came out of a sterile package - the person we're trying to help immediately disposed of any instrument that touched outside the sterile field for even 1/10th of a second.

Shame that a hack (Kimmel) gets so much support from the community but someone that knows more about what they are doing cannot - only because he didn't have MD after his name. It's a shame we cannot even put out a plea to help in a case where people are being charged with an archaic 1754 law. Yes, you read that right 1754... pre-US independence from Great Britain. They have been charged under an old colonial law.

It's a clear double-standard.

And before you throw in the whole "Shannon wouldn't approve" argument again... he offered to help out. I just didn't take him up on it at the time because I didn't think there was any way that enough support could come from him and the BME folks to possibly post the bond.

Nope, I feel justified in my disgust with the EA staff. NO explaination needed from the archive staff as they are behaving in typical ivory tower fashion. Sometimes I wish there was an alternative site but apparently that is not to be. Alas, I come here because there is no alternative.

[Paolo]

Alright, this has gone far enough.

I see no other alternative but to step in here, at the risk of stomping of someone's toes. <joke>Be warned, MY boots are steel-toed and shiny black leather. Any and all of those types, feel free to kiss them and/or worship.</joke>

What all of you are failing to see is that there is a MARKED difference between asking for assistance to help these folks now that they have been charged with a crime than there is for letting them advertise their services out in the open. This wasn't an advertisement for services, this was a plea to help the entire family that lived in that household. The police didn't just arrest the so-called cutter, they arrested and charged equally everyone living in the household.

This whole thread is the result of a misunderstanding of a technical issue, combined with the call made by the (at the time) only fully active Moderator on the Boards. Stress is common to all of us. How we all deal with surprises is greatly affected by it. Bob's initial post obviously came as a surprise. Was it dealt with? Yes. Was it dealt with WELL?

No.

Sorry, but it wasn't. Had it been, this thread would not exist.

To my knowledge, something like this has been presented to the Archive before. Back in the day, when we realized that the initial server was in trouble, there was great debate on whether or not to ask - on the Boards - for donations to help ourselves. What did we do? Pay the bill ourselves, or give up? We finally decided to ask for help, but for the Archive Itself, and not for an individual member. It was a monumental move, trust me. I was there.

Is there a difference? Yes. While the Archive continues, Rick and Co. do not - so to speak.

No, I feel quite justified in my anger at the arbitrary censorship of the message. As I've said previously, I usually keep my mouth shut at the unbelievable stuff the archive staff does, but this time I'm not shutting up, even if it costs me my access to the site.

L.T., call it what you will. You clearly show us your passion. That is not a fault. The old saying goes, "The truth is not kind." Yes, sometimes it isn't. But as I have said, what happened was a misunderstanding. Krister thought that his explanation would be visible to all viewers; it was NOT. Had it been, I feel that most of this thread would not have happened as it did.

What we have is a bad case of hard feelings, and that's an understatement. I, probably Krister as well, cannot comprehend what Rick and his family are enduring. Those closer to them can. I can sympathize, but I cannot KNOW. Can Bob and L.T. know? Do they? I feel that they do, from the passion of their posts. Is anger on either side justified? Yes it is. But understanding from both sides is also expected.

I had access to the initial post. At first read, yes, I probably would have said something, and done much the same thing as Krister did. Part of his suggestion was to contact Bob privately. THIS IS A GOOD IDEA for those who wish to help. No one is asking you to help - technically - you are being informed. If you can, and if you wish to, then DO. If you do not, then move on around the Boards and don't throw any more gas on the fire. It's as simple as that.

I will not sit by and watch the staff support Kimmel while they censor us trying to help the family involved in the case here. Especially when Kimmel should be shut down for his lack of sterile procedure. You allow advertising ad-infinitem for Kimmel's services even though he jeopardizes people more than the person we are trying to help. Kimmel is known to pick up dirty instruments from the floor and keep using them as if they came out of a sterile package - the person we're trying to help immediately disposed of any instrument that touched outside the sterile field for even 1/10th of a second.

While I have not been active in some time here, and there will be those who are offended by my impromptu return to active duty, I have to agree with L.T. on this. I am still available online via email and Messengers. I do get email, still. And I am growing concerned with Kimmel. I am VERY concerned, also, as it would seem that this is déjà vu - Spector - all over again, and very soon. Some months ago, I started the thread, sticky, on doctors, etc. This from TWO (2) emails I received at that time on near bleed-outs that required ER treatment to repair Kimmel's work.

HOWEVER, at this time, Kimmel is a valid MD and legal. And he is just about the only one to be found. I do NOT claim that Rick is unsafe. I do not know Rick. I also do not know Shannon's feelings on this. If it comes down to brass tacks, then Shannon should - and MUST - post his feelings on this. It is only through his graciousness that we (the Archive) exists. However, I must repeat my personal worry over Kimmel; I would not go to him, even if I had the downtime time and the money. Who else is there? And to head this one off, I am not in - say - L.T.'s past situation; nor is he in mine. But I sympathize. I expect the same in return. But personally, I do not endorse Kimmel. I HAVE called his office and spoken to them. The verbal communication frightened me. Were I in office management, everyone I spoke to would have been fired RIGHT THEN and THERE.

Shame that a hack (Kimmel) gets so much support from the community but someone that knows more about what they are doing cannot - only because he didn't have MD after his name. It's a shame we cannot even put out a plea to help in a case where people are being charged with an archaic 1754 law. Yes, you read that right 1754... pre-US independence from Great Britain. They have been charged under an old colonial law.

It's a clear double-standard.

And hopefully it is one that we can resolve.

We must have understanding here, in all aspects mentioned in this thread so far.

I do not personally endorse cutters, no matter how advanced they are. But I also do not condone someone who is running up a track record like Kimmel is.

And before you throw in the whole "Shannon wouldn't approve" argument again... he offered to help out. I just didn't take him up on it at the time because I didn't think there was any way that enough support could come from him and the BME folks to possibly post the bond.

As I said, I do not doubt this. I feel we should and MUST hear from Shannon.

Nope, I feel justified in my disgust with the EA staff. NO explanation needed from the archive staff as they are behaving in typical ivory tower fashion. Sometimes I wish there was an alternative site but apparently that is not to be. Alas, I come here because there is no alternative.

L.T. - and anyone else who feels this way - you have every right to feel as you do. But before anyone lets his/her/its passion run away with them, do stop for just a moment. Bring us your thoughts. You provide a balance when you do.

No one is going to be banned for this thread. No one is going to be stopped for speaking out on it. No is going to be stopped for placing trust in L.T. or Bob or even Shannon if they feel that they can help. Nowhere in this thread NOW does it say "send money to me for ________." But I am sure you get the hint. If you can, I repeat, and feel obligated to investigate the matter further, DO.

When I announced that I was indefinitely - and maybe permanently - leaving, my post at that time clarified my concerns. I see nothing has changed much. I am saddened by this.

I spent a lot of hours with Bboy on long nights with the EA when he finally took us on as a Staff. The site has evolved since then, vastly. I saw, some short time ago, a pending implosion. I still see it coming.

I see only Krister and occasionally Flo doing Board moderation. I see Political Posts (another can of worms) running amok. I see hard feelings, and lack of understanding. I can fully understand any newcomer being terrified of this Board as it is.

And looking back, I can see my own faults.

They are numerous.

EA is not mine.

It is not IEunuch's, per say.

It is not Talula's.

It is OURS.

And we must realize and correct our failings before this site DOES implode.

All of this goes back to tolerance, which we scream about in sexuality, religion, politics, etc. And yet we are ALL - every one of us - intolerant. We need one another to provide balance and understanding.

[Losethem (imported)]

It's been a VERY long time since I've raised this kind of hell with anyone. But I do feel strongly that there is some sort of censorship of a message here. Perhaps now that this thread has gone the way it has it would be a good time to put the original post back so that people have context.

Hell, I didn't even see the original post, but what I did see was the shutting down of a possible stream of help. Did you know that the people in question are on the verge of serving more time waiting for the trial then they would get as a maximum penalty if convicted of the crime? They have a higher bond set than the same court set for drug dealers. How is that fair? While they are not being held without charge I find it absolutely ridiculous that the state can hold people indefinately while they await trial. If people have served more time waiting for their trial then they would recieve as a maximum sentence they should be released. The state is definately playing guilty until proven innocent in this case.

Which brings us back to why the help is being asked for. The state has left these people to rot in a jail cell because the people involved have been too busy running for re-election or otherwise screwing around and not getting their job done. Haywood county North Carolina isn't a huge place and it shouldn't take a year to bring a case such as this to trial.

This is why these people need help.

My point is this - we advocate people go to Kimmel even with his unsterile practices simply because he has the letters "MD" after his name. But by trying to help people who are serving more time than the maximum possible sentence for the "crime" of castration we got our post censored.

Again, BIG difference between posting a message offering castration services and asking for help once someone has been arrested. Think about it. Oh and MacWolf is on my list right now for calling them criminals. I'm angry about that all by itself. Guess he's a guilty until proved innocent type himself. I don't recognize my country anymore... sad.

--LT

[Losethem (imported)]

Wake me up when the trial ends

Sensibility has come and passed

Those who help us never last

Wake me up when the trial ends

The prosecutor is dragging ass

The past year has gone so fast

Wake me up when the trial ends

Here come the cops again

at my house in their cars

They're throwing false charges at us again

Just for becoming who we are

As my vigilance never rests

I never forget what I gained

Wake me up when the trial ends

The prosecutor is dragging ass

The past year has gone so fast

Wake me up when the trial ends

I want to be happy again

like I was before this began

Wake me up when the trial ends

Here come the cops again

at my home in their cars

They're throwing false charges at us again

Just for becoming who we are

As my vigilance never rests

I never forget what I gained

Wake me up when the trial ends

Sensibility has come and passed

Those who help us never last

Wake me up when the trial ends

Like my brothers done in the past

All these years have gone so fast

Wake me up when the trial ends

[Paolo]

Even though I can access it, I will not repost the initial posting that started all of this. This would fly in the face of both IE and Kristoff who have already taken their actions and made the calls, before I was called in.

However, I think that everything that NEEDS to said and explained here has already been said, and more than explained. Readers know how to find Bob, and what he asked. How the readers feel about it, and what they do, is up to them.

[Beau Geste (imported)]

As someone who knows very little about this whole subject of genital surgery, perhaps I should be circumspect in my comments here, but it does seem to me that there are some salient points which haven't been discussed. I also have come to respect the archive's administrators, most of whom seem to be highly capable and intelligent people, who do long hours of work for no monetary compensation, and I think the severity of some criticism of them has been excessive

In the first place, the fellow who did the orchiectomies in North Carolina may have had some medical training and experience, but there are sound reasons why physicians, and particularly surgeons, have to earn licenses in order to practice medicine. One of these reasons is, that a licensed physician will (at least in theory) know what to do if something unexpected occurs, especially if a life-and-death situation develops. An unlicensed "cutter" may do fine in performing surgeries until an event like that occurs, and then his ignorance and lack of training could prove fatal. Some quack doctors have practiced for years until their lack of training led to a mistake which cost someone his health or his life.

I'm not suggesting that the man who is being prosecuted shouldn't be provided with sympathy and with financial help. But it should be understood that there is a reason for the laws which prohibit amateur surgery, the man surely was aware of the statutes which exist in North Carolina, and he broke the law with the knowledge that he could suffer consequences for what he did.

That said, as is indicated in some of the previous posts, there are ways mentioned in those posts by which people who are handling the financial aid aspect of this, can be contacted. This sort of indirect connection should, in my view, have been set up to begin with, since it would insulate this website from legal responsibility for anything associated with illegal activity.

And, in terms of legal responsiblity, it cannot, in my view, be strongly enough emphasized, that care should be taken to insure that this website and those who admister it, are not subjected to criminal prosecution or to tort suits because of the content of the site. The cost of legal counsel is such that simply being sued can ruin the defendant financially, even if he wins his case. Any lawsuit could result in the website being shut down, and could even bring down BME.

As to the problems with Dr. Kimmel, my suggestion would be that, if he is indeed the only person providing elective orchiectomy in this country, then why couldn't he be informed, perhaps through a letter signed by his many patients, or through a visit by patients or by other responsible persons, that there are reports of unprofessional practices in his office, and he has to deal with those problems. In most medical offices, matters like cleanliness and sterilization are attended to by assistants, and perhaps Dr. Kimmel needs to get more conscientious help.

Of course, the ultimate solution to this problem is, to develop a network of physicians willing to perform operations which, it must be said, are mostly simple outpatient procedures, for those who want them.

[Losethem (imported)]

Gee, just when I'm moving on...

The person in question, in my opinion, is more qualified, more caring, more sterile, and more concientious than the one doctor performing them EVER WAS. I saw the paperwork that said he was qualified. In some places these type are allowed to do this surgery with the assitance of a physician. Granted, he doesn't have MD after his name but I'll bet he did more of these surgeries when he started that Kimmel did.

Kimmel is a hack, pure and simple. When he adopts the proceedures the person in question did, maybe I'll change my tune. I'm amazed people have left his office WITHOUT staph infections.

Regardless, the issue is done and I hope the moderators seal off this thread.

--LT

[Paolo]

Thread closed by request.