Molested

[erikboy (imported)]

Remember, it is hard to tell when you are abusing others when you yourself are not fully aware of when and how you were abused. As you say, abuse is in the eye of the abusee. However, when that eye that you must look through has been injured by abuse, it is hard to see clearly from it.

Absolutely true!

But who says what is right and what is not? When that 'eye' is injured and when it is not?

Few thoughts on this...

It depends heavily on our cultural and religious background what we believe is normal and what we believe is not. What acts are considered hostile, what are considered inhumane, what acts are dishonorable, etc.

What i want to say, that there is no 'absolute values' or universal ways to measure what is damaging to a person and what is not.

That is exactly what legislation is trying to set - Set absolute values by age and criminalize certain acts regardless of actual details.

Doing so we could loose the original idea behind it - to protect weak from more powerful.

An experience of my friend:

He married a beatyful and young woman and lived together 2 years, then his wife suddenly wanted divorce. My friend was quite confused and unhappy.

Only after divorce his ex-wife told him why she married him.

My friend was quite wealthy guy and by finnish legislation property of family must be divided after dicorce into 2 equal halves. one half for man and other for woman. She of course had only 3% of the total property originally but after divorce she became quite wealthy. My question here is again, who was abusing who? Was that kind of legislation serving its purpose? by protecting weak?

About cultural backgrounds.

We know that muslims circumcise their prepubescent boys. Does it harm them? Does it inflict pain to them? Does it humiliate them?

Circumcision gives much higher status in society, as after circomcision they are not mere boys anymore. It is honorable for them to get circumcised.

Even more, circumcision is required by god! Who could be against the gods will? God is always right!

are abusees eyes injured already?

Here, where I live it is completely normal to go sauna naked. Usually sexes are separated. Boys and men together and girls and women together. But some times even men and women and children all together go sauna naked. This is an old tradition and nobody percieves it as some kind of abuse or humiliation. At least not for me.

To make things even more complicated, it varies person to person within the people of the same cultural background how we percieve the world around us.

Thats why we try to avoid certain jokes if we are among people we do not know very well. As jokes might be perceived as personal insults.

Please do not misunderstand me, I do not want to justify crimes against minors. Violence against minors, intentional harming, humiliating, abusing them for self pleasure (sexual or nonsexual) by adults is not acceptable.

My message is that the world of relations between humans inside the society are very complicated. Not speaking of relations between people of different cultures. It is not enough to simply follow the rules if you wish to understand the core of the problem.

PS! this is my 100th post

[Prudence (imported)]

There are some definitions too:

sexual molestation - a term defining offenses in which an adult engages in non-penetrative activity with a minor for the purpose of sexual gratification; for example, exposing a minor to pornography or to the sexual acts of others

sexual exploitation - a term defining offenses in which an adult victimizes a minor for advancement, sexual gratification, or profit; for example, prostituting a child,[115] and creating or trafficking in child pornography.

sexual assault - a term defining offenses in which an adult touches a minor for the purpose of sexual gratification; for example, rape (including sodomy), and sexual penetration with an object.[112] Most U.S. states include, in their definitions of sexual assault, any penetrative contact of a minor's body, however slight, if the contact is performed for the purpose of sexual gratification.[113]

sexual grooming - defines the social conduct of a potential child sex offender who seeks to make a minor more accepting of their advances, for example in an online chat room[117]

Protecting our children is good. Only keeping them in sterile environment makes them much more vulnerable when they need to start to make their own decisions. We should teach them to recognize problems early and teach them how to seek for help. I understand, that this is problematic when one of parents is a molester. But somehow we need to make our children stronger.

E.

So what would be the definition of someone (minor, teen, or adult) who engages in one-sided sexual behavior with a younger child (minor or teen) only for the sexual gratification of the child?

What I mean by "one-sided sexual behavior" is that the person is only 'stimulating' the child, and doesn't have the child doing anything to him or her in return (and isn't naked themselves).

Because this is exactly what happened to me...

First off understand that I grew up in a very conservative home. My parents were wonderful, but kept me completely, totally in the dark about anything related to sex (other than "girls don't have a penis" and "its wrong to touch yourself there except for cleaning". Also "its wrong to talk about that sort of thing". That was all I ever knew).

When I was really young, I'm not sure how old, probably 4 or maybe 5, there was a girl up the street that used to occasionally babysit me, named Cindy. I don't know how old she was. To me she seemed like an adult. But looking back she was probably in her mid teens, like 14, 15, or 16 years old. Cindy had watched me several times and I got to know and trust her pretty well. I liked her a lot. Most of the time she would come over to our house, but every now and then my parents would drop me off at her house.

Anyway, one time Cindy was babysitting me at her house, and one of her friends came over. At some point I had used the restroom and was having trouble getting the pants zipper to go back up -- I had gotten my underwear caught in the zipper and couldn't move the thing up or down. So I was looking for her to help... The two girls were in her bedroom. Cindy told me to come in there. So I walked in. She told me to get up on the bed so she could look at the zipper. So I did. Then she said I had to pull down my underwear so she could fix it. I was a very trusting kid, so I just did as I was told. Cindy reached out and started to play with my penis. I can remember thinking that was a little strange. But it did kind of feel good so I did not try to stop her. After a few seconds she asked me if it felt good. I remember nodding 'yes'. "Do you want me to keep doing it?" she asked. I nodded a yes again. I don't know how long she kept it up, but it had to be at least a few minutes. Then Cindy said "you want to try it?" to her friend, and her friend did. But that girl's touch was kind of rough and I didn't like it as much as I did Cindy's. Then Cindy said "move your little muscle to make it go up and down", and I flexed my "down there" muscles which made my penis move a few times. Her friend giggled over that. Then she fixed my zipper and I pulled my pants back up.

That was one of a few experiences which got me a little more interested in sex than I otherwise would have been (I've written about the others in my stories and in other posts).

A year or two after I had entered school, when I was probably 7 years old, there was this boy named Shane in my class who was bigger and more dominant than the rest of us. Kind of a bully. Anyway, one time both Shane and I were in the bathroom at the same time, and we had a sexual encounter. I don't remember if I initiated or if he did, but I am guessing it was him because #1 I was a fairly passive individual, and #2 I was primarily interested in trying to get a girl to let me play with her "privates" (which I was never able to do during childhood, I guess I kept asking the wrong types of girls).

Anyway, so with Shane at first it was just mutual touching. It felt good to have someone touch me there again, so I met up with Shane a few more times. But quickly it became mostly me doing things to Shane, but Shane doing little or nothing to me in return. The very last time we met ended with anal rape (Shane raped me). And that was the end of that, I had nothing else to do with Shane afterwords and hated him for it. I found out years later that Shane's older brother had molested him -- so Shane was another sad case of a victim victimizing someone else.

Sadly, I also became the victim victimizing others. Only my case was a little different. As I was going through puberty and the hormones were raging (at 11 and 12 years old), I always remembered fondly what Cindy had done to me and wanted to bring that feeling to others. So I sought out some of the younger kids in our neighborhood and tried to get them to drop thier pants, telling them it would feel really good and trying to persuade them using the logic that they had never tried playing with themselves before so how would they know what it was like?

Now here is the interesting thing -- I only wanted to please THEM, to make THEM feel good. I didn't care if they did anything to me in return. I just thought I would be giving them the most wonderful gift in the world by making them feel good. If I wanted to make myself feel good, I could just masterbate (besides that, I didn't want anyone to ever see me ejaculate, I was embarassed of it. Also I didn't ever want to force someone to do something to me, like what Shane did to me). So I guess I was kind of a "Submissive" molester or something...

I tried with 4 girls and 5 boys. I had no luck with the girls. But I got 3 of the boys to agree. I never did anything they didn't want/allow me to do (everything I did to them was consensual). For two of the boys, I was clothed the whole time, they never saw me naked. For the third boy, I had multiple encounters with him. At first I was clothed. But soon this boy wanted to make me feel good too, so I let him touch me also. But would always stop him before I ejaculated. Until one time I let him take me all the way. He thought the "white stuff" was weird and thought I was peeing at first. I was so embarassed that I broke off contact with him and we never had another encounter after that.

It was about a year later, I was 14 years old, that I discovered what I had been doing was wrong (from news reports during the 1980's "sex abuse hysteria")... That it would harm children if an older person "played sexually" with them. I was totally devastated at the thought that I might have caused these boys future harm. I stopped all sexual encounters and didn't seek out any other sexual encounters after this. I turned all of my sexual feelings inward. I am pretty sure that this was part of the reason I began to dwell so heavily on thoughts of penectomy, TG, and castration (the other reasons I've wrote about in my stories and in other posts).

Sorry this was such a long post. I hope this adds to the discussion, and maybe helps others...

[pinkish (imported)]

age 13

encouraged my brother-inlaws , advance'es

[Kangan (imported)]

Thanks to all of you for your comments!

The courts automatically assume that the adult is the one at fault. And in most cases this is quite true. However, I have known of exceptions.

Once (a very, very long time ago) I met a teenaged boy who wanted me to take him swimming at a local pool. It turned out that he wanted to see me naked as he was curious about what a grown man's body looked like. Subsequently we had a sexual encounter (mutual masturbation) at his request. (Since I was addicted to all forms of sex, his request did not disturb me.) Legally, this was a sex crime, no matter who initiated it. From the standpoint of the boy, there was no molestation since it was all initiated at his request. As to his prior sexual history, I have no knowledge.

[erikboy (imported)]

So what would be the definition of someone (minor, teen, or adult) who engages in one-sided sexual behavior with a younger child (minor or teen) only for the sexual gratification of the child?

What I mean by "one-sided sexual behavior" is that the person is only 'stimulating' the child, and doesn't have the child doing anything to him or her in return (and isn't naked themselves).

I try to reply indirectly.

When a child is born, she or he is like an empty sheet of paper where you can write. Once something is written, it is difficult to erase this. Still, even these empty sheets of paper have very different qualities. Some are soft and requires careful handling, some reject specific ink, some are hard to write on, etc.

It is possible to ruin or breake this nice sheet of paper with rough handling.

If nothing is written on paper then damages, irregularities and ink blots will dominate.

E.

[cordonone (imported)]

Sex with another person, to me, is a way of expressing deep friendship. Sadly there are those who are frightened by such a concept.

This may raise an issue that might best be discussed on a political forum and that may be considered inappropriate here (if so, I apologize and ask that people ignore this post), but, to my way of thinking, "sex with another person...[as] a way of expressing deep friendship" implies the ability to consent. Someone who is 10 is unlikely to be able to give such consent and is viewed by most authorities as statutorily unable to do so. I'm not saying that every experience of that nature will automatically cause permanent damage or trauma, but the odds are greater that its impact will be negative rather than positive in the long term. So, society has a legitimate interest in protecting people from such an experience.

[Milkman (imported)]

Indeed.. I was sexually active the second time I was molested, but being forced to have sexc is another matter altogether

[cordonone (imported)]

This is a fascinating, necessary discussion. If we with our fantasies and determinations cannot accurately define some of these terms and actions then it's a conversation that will always stumble.

It is of concern that the media and "interested parties" have appropriated these terms and ideas and made them flash points to the public while completely ignoring the realities of the victims and the offenders. Certainly I do not support the latter but they are a factor. Is an offender a child who may be only slightly older than the victim? And there's the uncomfortable thought that the young can and do seduce older persons: I speak from experience. I took my first lover when I was 12 and he was 37. I will grant you that when I was twelve I was physically akin to a 25 year old and I was very much the predator. But in the eyes of most that changes nothing. We dismiss "children" as blameless in many, many things. If a person under, say, 15 commits murder every effort is made to show that the guilt for their deed lies elsewhere. Do we always know that's correct?

Not everything can be easily and simply codified in law or in our frames of reference. For example, rape and molestation are not necessarily the same. Rape is a violent, physical act. Molestation can vary from the subtly psychological to the overtly physical. How each of us defines that is necessarily personal but we must always be willing to hear other versions from other persons.

Things sexual of all stripe are the third rail of life. That I will be castrated is a horror to many I know. However, here, it excites no comment other than encouragement. I would suggest that we, here, have the broader view as we can see and consider far more sides than those who withdraw in disgust that any human might tamper with the imbued right to procreate.

Each of us needs to consider what constitutes molestation but not totally define it. We need to retain an open definition for, I assure you, once we think we've now heard it all, that's precisely when the "worst" we've ever heard occurs.

I couldn't disagree with you more. There's nothing "personal" or situational about the definition of sexual "molestation." It is any act that objectifies another human being for erotic purposes without their consent. Groping the genitals of a 35 year old stranger on the subway is molestation. Any sex act with someone who is unable to consent is molestation. That includes minors and people who are physically or mentally impaired or in some way restrained against their will (I'm not talking about the outer boundaries of consensual S&M, which is another subject).

Regarding the lack of consent in a minor, for most of us, as a wise person once said in another context, "when you see it you recognize it," but just to be sure and becaue there seem to be people in every society who would try to "justify" sexual congress between adults and minors, most societies establish an age of consent, below which they protect their children by the de facto assumption that they are unable to consent. I'll leave the practices of remote societies to the anthropologists and forensic psychologists among us. A 12 year old who has sex with a 37 year old has been raped, no matter how Lolita-like s/he may be. The 37 year old is responsible for stopping the process of seduction. Period. (As for the specific question of sexual relations between minors and other young people, some jurisdictions allow judges to take the age of the rapist into consideration in sentencing, but not in establishing guilt or innocence, which is stipulated by statute.)

Sorry for coming on so strong, but if anyone wants to think I'm closed-minded in this one area of an otherwise liberal set of values, I'll take that as a compliment.

[A-1 (imported)]

I couldn't disagree with you more. There's nothing "personal" or situational about the definition of sexual "molestation." It is any act that objectifies another human being for erotic purposes without their consent. Groping the genitals of a 35 year old stranger on the subway is molestation. Any sex act with someone who is unable to consent is molestation. That includes minors and people who are physically or mentally impaired or in some way restrained against their will (I'm not talking about the outer boundaries of consensual S&M, which is another subject).

Regarding the lack of consent in a minor, for most of us, as a wise person once said in another context, "when you see it you recognize it," but just to be sure and becaue there seem to be people in every society who would try to "justify" sexual congress between adults and minors, most societies establish an age of consent, below which they protect their children by the de facto assumption that they are unable to consent. I'll leave the practices of remote societies to the anthropologists and forensic psychologists among us. A 12 year old who has sex with a 37 year old has been raped, no matter how Lolita-like s/he may be. The 37 year old is responsible for stopping the process of seduction. Period. (As for the specific question of sexual relations between minors and other young people, some jurisdictions allow judges to take the age of the rapist into consideration in sentencing, but not in establishing guilt or innocence, which is stipulated by statute.)

Sorry for coming on so strong, but if anyone wants to think I'm closed-minded in this one area of an otherwise liberal set of values, I'll take that as a compliment.

I can see that this discussion is clearly too complicated for an easy answer.

Certainly, age 'differences' of lovers IS significant. It is especially significant in today's modern world. However, there are historic times when it is more blurry. Also, there are times when it is obvious that society ENFORCES its irrational rules upon those who express LOVE to each other and forsake family and society to be true to that love.

Take for example the most often discussed Shakspearian play "Romeo and Juliet"

Some sources place Juliet at age 13, almost 14 while Romeo is 15, maybe 17?

SOURCE#1 (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/faq/romeofaq.html)

SOURCE#2 (http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qs ... 5001636493)

Then, there is THIS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/ ... 4606.shtml) sort of problem...

The problem with 'young love' is primarily sociological. The Western world with a 50% divorce rate hardly qualifies as a perfect sociological example.

So, as age differences of over 5 years make western societies VERY nervous, none can deny from the EVIDENCE (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -cent.html) that minor ARE having sex, with whom they have it seems to be their decision. Just because there may be laws against it does not mean that it is not happening.

Then, of course there is THIS (http://women.propeller.com/story/2008/0 ... -two-years) opinion by a blogger...

The question is who is having sex with 14 year old girls? If it is an underage male then they both need counseling but if it's an adult male it's a crime. Planned Parenthood doesn't t refer cases where an under age female has sex with an adult male to the police. Therefore, Planned Parenthood is guilty of covering up sex crimes.

If the girl consents, especially if she has a history of molestation by a family member or a close friend, the act of getting pregnant by a male of her choice is a statement of claim to her own body.

I shall not comment on Gay relationships, but similar psychological mechanisms are undoubtedly in existance in these, too.

BUT THIS IS PURE BULLSHIT... (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx ... derage+sex +incident&articleId=0bf55a89-dbba-489f-8555-cc30d7e81e71)

If I was the goddamned judge on this case I'd marry these two in open court...

But truly, this is OVER the TOP...

Teen charged in underage sex incident

By GRETA CUYLER

Union Leader Correspondent

Tuesday, Oct. 16, 2007

WEARE - A 17-year-old boy who admitted to having sex with his underage girlfriend has been charged with misdemeanor sexual assault.

Damon C. Hadley, 17, of Henniker was arrested on Oct. 9 and released on $5,000 personal recognizance bail, according to Weare police.

His trial is scheduled for Nov. 27 in Goffstown District Court.

If convicted of the Class A misdemeanor, Hadley could face up to a year in jail and a $2,000 fine.

In addition to the criminal charge, Hadley is recovering from a beating by the girl's father. On Sept. 10, the father stormed the high school parking lot and hit the 17-year-old, leaving him with cuts, bruises and two stitches to his face.

"We are a society of laws, not of vigilantism," said Skip Campbell, Hadley's attorney. "I hope that people will take the opportunity to look at the facts in this case as they come out and reserve their harsh judgment."

He described his client as a nice and thoughtful young man, who works hard in school and has a part-time job fixing motorcycles.

Hadley and his girlfriend had been dating since June, he said.

"This situation has profoundly affected him and confused him," Campbell said. "He certainly did not deserve what this man did to him, which is outrageous under any circumstances."

That morning, the girl failed to show up for her first-period class. School officials and then the girl's parents began to search for her, to no avail. Hadley and the girl returned to school at the same time, through separate entrances.

►Angry dad defended, bashed by readers (37)

►Father waylays daughter's lover (66)

►Teen to be charged in Weare sex case (42)

The teens later admitted to having sex during the school day, but off school property, Weare Police Detective Lou Chatel said.

Under state law, a person can't consent to sex until the age of 16. The girl is 15 1/2.

In some circumstances, and if their age difference was three years or more, the youth could have faced a felony charge.

The girl's father reported the sexual assault to police, then drove to John Stark Regional High School and attacked Hadley in the parking lot, in full view of students and parents just as school was letting out around 3 p.m.

The father was arrested and charged with simple assault, a Class B felony.

The girl has filed a restraining order against Hadley. She and her siblings have also transferred high schools.

"I don't think it's that unusual that a 17-year-old is having sex with a 15-year-old," Michael Iacopino, president of the New Hampshire Association for Criminal Defense Lawyers. "It seems to me this is the perfect case where prosecutorial discretion ought to be used so we don't have a travesty of justice."

Detective Chatel said Hadley will likely have to report his arrest on college and job applications.

"If the girl's father had a concern that she was having sex with another student at her high school, the proper approach would have been to speak with his daughter and to avail himself to resources in their community," said Campbell. "His response should not have been to lash out in anger about a situation that he clearly didn't understand."

So we don't know the particulars of this case, clearly the boy may be acting like a 25 cent stud and in which case, he DESERVES to be accused of molestation.

However, they may be IN LOVE and the girl's family may be trying to split them up.

...you just don't know.

That is why mandatory laws with mandatory penalties are NOT a good idea. This is why we have judges. However, the religious fundaMENTALISTS insist on NO flexibility or discretion on the part of the judge, unless, the judge adheres to the fundamentalists philosophy. A bit like an Arab Muslim-dominated country.

Yet, with a straight face they tell the story in Genesis of Lot and his daughters, after they left Sodom and Gommorrah and Lot's wife is turned into a pillar of salt, who get 'daddy' drunk, take him into a tent and BOTH get pregnant by him... So, lot was 'saved' from fire and brimstone destruction to molest and impregnate his two daughters... so do they burn incest...er... incense at your church?

Do you REALLY want your morality in the Judeo-christian or MUSLIM tradition? Need I remind you about Mohammad's SIX YEAR OLD WIFE?

Therfore, I wish to suspend judgment. Suffice it to say that I know molestation when I see it.

It is a bit like the old lady who calls 911 and tells the operator, Hello! There is a naked man in my bedroom. The operator responds, we will send the police right over. The woman replies, no hurry. Just have them stop by in the morning after breakfast...

So, yes, a pattern of a preditor implies molestation guilt but lovers with only an age difference implies something else entirely.

It is very hard to sit in judgment on these things with mandated laws and still claim to have a shred of humanity...

However, then there is the PREGNANCY PACT (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080620/ap_ ... nancy_pact) and the SUBSEQUENT DENIAL (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/22/pregnancy.pact.ap/) story...

:shakemitk

Then, there is the story of the mistake that never goes away. (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/10/21/111/94392)

When you look at it in a certain light it is ALL FUCKED UP... beyond repair...

:shakemitk

[A-1 (imported)]

....ALL OF THIS AND THE 'NORMAL?' PEOPLE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE COME TO A PLACE LIKE THIS LOOKING TO RID THEMSELVES OF THEIR SEXUALITY.



shakemitkshakemitk:shakemitk shakemitk

[SplitDik (imported)]

In reading several biographic posts on here , I noticed that being molested as a child seems to be a common thread. I was molested twice as child. It did not impact my sexuality , I have known I was gay for a long time, but I wonder if it has made me uneasy with sexual pleasure ... I have gone from wild episodes of sexual indulgence, to horrified abstinence and back again for years. Castration appeals to me as relief from this constant struggle and the chaos that the wild episodes cause.... How do others feel about this subject. Is molestation common among EA members?

I don't know about other members. I was not at all abused or molested. For me it was that I was just oversexed from a young age and the frustration built up until I just wanted to be free from the urges.

[erikboy (imported)]

I don't know about other members. I was not at all abused or molested. For me it was that I was just oversexed from a young age and the frustration built up until I just wanted to be free from the urges.

Perhaps we need another survey, though current survey has questions about molestation already.

Childhood molestation certainly add to castration fantasies, but i feel that these who have not been molested just do not say anything, as there is nothing to say.

I haven't been molested myself. Not sexually, not by adults or teenagers.

At some point I was bullied at school. Quite hard. That was difficult period for me of course and it left its own psychological traumas. But it is not related to sex. Instead it forced me to think more about life and attitude and my position in life than it would have been normal to my age. I am not a submissive person. I've always valued freedom. I think that exactly this bullying helped me to develope into a better person. Better than average.

If i was too satisfied with my life, no ambitions, no desire to achive anything, then i woud have been an average beer drinking husband, with nice beer belly and stereotype thinking - like in Simpsons family

E.

[Paolo]

One point that we're not addressing here that "Considering" makes is that of those under the age of 18 that want to (or think they want to) have sexual relations. Be it straight, gay, or bi, it doesn't matter.

He says he was 12.

The question he raises is this - "is there a victim?" IF one or both of the sexual players are under the magical number of 18?

Furthermore, is there a victim if two teenagers, say both 15-16, decided mutually to "get it on"?

I have addressed this situation 4 times already:

G1 is now 20 and will be getting married (planned to anyway) to his live-in girlfriend. This has been going on since he was 17. She just turned 18, but her parents pretty much signed her over to G1's parents some time ago. We knew there was consensual sex going on. What are you going to do about it? By the way, Baby Mason is due to arrive on Halloween night, if the doctor guessed the date right...some of us learn the hard way.

On to G2 - at 16, he "scored" on New Year's Eve. With a girl. (So far the 4 of them are all turning out straight. Can't have everything, I guess...)

G3 is ten, and there better NOT be anything going on there! (Note my reaction to that idea - age notwithstanding.)

Last year, N1 and N2 both "scored" with girls. One was 16, the other 14. I was not impressed. I bought them both a box of condoms.

Hell, everyone's getting lucky but for me...

But back to the topic at hand.

Were there any victims in any of these cases? No. Granted, none of them had relations with someone over 18 at the time, except for G1's girlfriend, who was two years younger than he. Is that legal? No. But no one cared. I walked in on that once - well, it was just getting started and they didn't lock the door...but it seemed to me that SHE was aggressor there. So here they are, setting up housekeeping, a baby on the way now, and Grandma-to-be has already gone "shit ignorant stupid" with the baby thing already.

Still, I can't answer the question of "Considering's" original hypothesis: was he a victim? He says "no". We think otherwise.

I have no easy answer for this one.

Looking back, can any of us say that we might have enjoyed it, back then, had we been "molested" ( I put that in quotes for context ) by an adult some years older? Maybe.

There are sexually precocious children out there. By children, I mean <18. At what age is proper, however, written law aside, is something for each person to consider. Granted, it IS illegal in most area, given age of consent laws that vary from region to region.

Part of me says that a 12 yo. boy having relations with ANYONE who is 37 is wrong.

Then again, as N1 said about a boy his age "getting laid" with his "hot teacher" who was 35 - "That lucky bastard! I'd f*ck my English teacher!"

[Milkman (imported)]

Yes but all unwilling or coerced sex is bad!!

[Kangan (imported)]

....ALL OF THIS AND THE 'NORMAL?' PEOPLE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE COME TO A PLACE LIKE THIS LOOKING TO RID THEMSELVES OF THEIR SEXUALITY.



shakemitkshakemitk:shakemitk shakemitk

What a great comment!

[weh12660 (imported)]

I am a first timer, I have followed this and like others I know the difference between sex and rape. I seem to be an easy mark for some reason. Now at 48 yrs I am searching for the person I am. I feel sad and lonely all the time. I have been married for many years but it has just been an existence not a life. I know the rapes in my life has changed me for sex to me is just an empty act that I perform for someone else. In 2001 I had an industrial accident and both testicles were removed. I guess all I want is to find real love I do not even know if I want a man or a woman. How messed up is that?

[Mac (imported)]

I don't recall ever being sexually molested. However, I knew that I had the wrong parts even before I knew what girls had that made them different.

If I had known before puberty what kids know today I would have found some way to prevent the adverse effects of male puberty, with the hope of getting complete SRS when I was old enough.

[weh12660 (imported)]

I have a question for Milkman what are you looking for? I feel your pain and I hear what your saying.

[Paolo]

First time poster?

Welcome to the zoo.

I think you'll find it a nice place.

[tugon (imported)]

I am a first timer, I have followed this and like others I know the difference between sex and rape. I seem to be an easy mark for some reason. Now at 48 yrs I am searching for the person I am. I feel sad and lonely all the time. I have been married for many years but it has just been an existence not a life. I know the rapes in my life has changed me for sex to me is just an empty act that I perform for someone else. In 2001 I had an industrial accident and both testicles were removed. I guess all I want is to find real love I do not even know if I want a man or a woman. How messed up is that?

I am glad you are here. This is the best group of people when you need to figure out your place in the world. I can relate to being an easy mark. Rapes have also changed me. I am not the person I was but I am becoming better than I thought I could be. Healing can happen and if I can help in any way let me know.

[Danya (imported)]

I am a first timer, I have followed this and like others I know the difference between sex and rape. I seem to be an easy mark for some reason. Now at 48 yrs I am searching for the person I am. I feel sad and lonely all the time. I have been married for many years but it has just been an existence not a life. I know the rapes in my life has changed me for sex to me is just an empty act that I perform for someone else. In 2001 I had an industrial accident and both testicles were removed. I guess all I want is to find real love I do not even know if I want a man or a woman. How messed up is that?

Please hang in there, WEH12660. I would think the industrial accident must have been a very traumatic experience.

You are simply unsure of who you are, not that I mean this is not a major issue for you. Perhaps you never really had a chance to explore that. I am 56 and have been trying to figure out what I want sexually, and who I am with respect to gender, for years. Now, I finally have answers to who I am, but I will always be discovering more. The answers I have are not the final answers because I am still exploring.

There have been times in my life when I have felt extremely sad and lonely. Even when I was living with my my ex-wife.

Please continue to post. Be gentle on yourself, too, and give yourself some slack. You have been through a lot and now you are trying to deal with a number of important life issues. Many people never address their issues at any age. You have made a start and that is very important.

Take care,

Danya

[weh12660 (imported)]

Thank you all for your kindness and I will continue to read and post.

[chilliwilli (imported)]

I think many of us have been molested. Perhaps the sexual molestation was not central in our developement, but I would venture to guess that there were other shades of abuse going on when a child is being sexually abused.

It really does mess up any opportunity for a normal life, but then we can't all be normal either.

I've spent years working on myself and the whole sexual thing is just a can of worms. Sexuality is so ingrained I think that castration is right for alot of people whose wiring got all screwed up as a child. Castrating yourself is like cutting off a rottong toe in a way.

I took that survey and got all messed up in the head. Had to go in the shop play the radio and build something. I apologize if it upsets anyone but really would love to hear from any guys with similar experience as mine.

[cordonone (imported)]

I can see that this discussion is clearly too complicated for an easy answer.

Certainly, age 'differences' of lovers IS significant. It is especially significant in today's modern world. However, there are historic times when it is more blurry. Also, there are times when it is obvious that society ENFORCES its irrational rules upon those who express LOVE to each other and forsake family and society to be true to that love.

Take for example the most often discussed Shakspearian play "Romeo and Juliet"

Some sources place Juliet at age 13, almost 14 while Romeo is 15, maybe 17?

SOURCE#1 (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/faq/romeofaq.html)

SOURCE#2 (http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qs ... 5001636493)

Then, there is THIS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/ ... 4606.shtml) sort of problem...

The problem with 'young love' is primarily sociological. The Western world with a 50% divorce rate hardly qualifies as a perfect sociological example.

So, as age differences of over 5 years make western societies VERY nervous, none can deny from the EVIDENCE (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -cent.html) that minor ARE having sex, with whom they have it seems to be their decision. Just because there may be laws against it does not mean that it is not happening.

Then, of course there is THIS (http://women.propeller.com/story/2008/0 ... -two-years) opinion by a blogger...

If the girl consents, especially if she has a history of molestation by a family member or a close friend, the act of getting pregnant by a male of her choice is a statement of claim to her own body.

I shall not comment on Gay relationships, but similar psychological mechanisms are undoubtedly in existance in these, too.

BUT THIS IS PURE BULLSHIT... (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx ... derage+sex +incident&articleId=0bf55a89-dbba-489f-8555-cc30d7e81e71)

If I was the goddamned judge on this case I'd marry these two in open court...

But truly, this is OVER the TOP...

So we don't know the particulars of this case, clearly the boy may be acting like a 25 cent stud and in which case, he DESERVES to be accused of molestation.

However, they may be IN LOVE and the girl's family may be trying to split them up.

...you just don't know.

That is why mandatory laws with mandatory penalties are NOT a good idea. This is why we have judges. However, the religious fundaMENTALISTS insist on NO flexibility or discretion on the part of the judge, unless, the judge adheres to the fundamentalists philosophy. A bit like an Arab Muslim-dominated country.

Yet, with a straight face they tell the story in Genesis of Lot and his daughters, after they left Sodom and Gommorrah and Lot's wife is turned into a pillar of salt, who get 'daddy' drunk, take him into a tent and BOTH get pregnant by him... So, lot was 'saved' from fire and brimstone destruction to molest and impregnate his two daughters... so do they burn incest...er... incense at your church?

Do you REALLY want your morality in the Judeo-christian or MUSLIM tradition? Need I remind you about Mohammad's SIX YEAR OLD WIFE?

Therfore, I wish to suspend judgment. Suffice it to say that I know molestation when I see it.

It is a bit like the old lady who calls 911 and tells the operator, Hello! There is a naked man in my bedroom. The operator responds, we will send the police right over. The woman replies, no hurry. Just have them stop by in the morning after breakfast...

So, yes, a pattern of a preditor implies molestation guilt but lovers with only an age difference implies something else entirely.

It is very hard to sit in judgment on these things with mandated laws and still claim to have a shred of humanity...

However, then there is the PREGNANCY PACT (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080620/ap_ ... nancy_pact) and the SUBSEQUENT DENIAL (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/22/pregnancy.pact.ap/) story...

:shakemitk

Then, there is the story of the mistake that never goes away. (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/10/21/111/94392)

When you look at it in a certain light it is ALL FUCKED UP... beyond repair...

:shakemitk

Thank you for such a long and thoughtful response to my post. We're just going to have to disagree. To me, it doesn't matter how old Romeo and Juliet were in Shakespeare's imagination or in whatever historical facts may be related to their characters five centuries ago. It doesn't matter to me whether the Hebrew Bible endorsed or implied child marriage several millenia ago or whether the Prophet's wife was six or sixteen five hundred years ago. It doesn't matter whether the rest of us "adults" succeed or fail at marriage or whatever committed relationships we choose to contract. I still believe that civil society today, nationally and across borders, has an inherent interest in protecting children. This applies not just to domestic laws but to international standards of Human Rights. This is not a matter of sociologically relative standards but of the rights of children to assume that society will protect them.

There will always be annecdotal events or stories that might challenge this or any sensitive societal norm, but they do not change the underlying values that are at stake. And, I have no doubt that there are many other legitimate conundrums beside those that you cite.

The only place where I took a little offense at your comments (the rest was mostly reasonable people disagreeing reasonably) was in the implication that it is only "the religious fundaMENTALISTS" who

insist on NO flexibility or discretion on the part of the judge, unless, the judge adheres to the fundamentalists philosophy.

" Religiouisly, I am neither a fundamentalist nor a fundaMENTALIST, but I firmly believe that the overriding interest of society lies in assuming that children below a communally specified age are assumed not to be able to give consent. I don't want judges to have too much "discretion" when it comes to establishing guilt or innocence in these regards, but I am willing to concede that there might be some benefit to allowing the proximity of a defendant's age to that of a victim to be taken into account in any mandated treatment or sentencing. (As an aside, it is ironic in the context of this discussion that it is contemporary christian fundamentalist sects that have publicly been associated with creating cultures of alleged child rape. Recall also that it was a typically conservative religious institution, the Roman Catholic church, that has been most credibly and publically associated with the protection of child molestors and rapists.)

As for what might or might not be "ALL FUCKED UP...beyond repair...," I think that failing to have laws that make the assumption that children need to be protected is far more fucked up than the alternative.

[chilliwilli (imported)]

...so last nite I was riding my bike thru the park, a park where they play movies for the public at night. Riding thru a parking lot, next to the field where they play movies, I rode up on a small boy of less than two years. He was hispanic with a dark shirt and hair. Obviously he had wandered away from his parents and know found himself twenty feet from the audience in the middle of a dark parking lot. I paniced, the little guy could easily get run over by a car in the dark. I dismounted my horse (actually my bike "woody" a heavily modified beach cruiser with a custom phalice on the front fender.). I asked the little guy in both spanish and english if he wanted to hold my hand, he spoke english fine. He was so scarred that when I picked him up his look of worry immediately disappeared. I walked him the twenty or so feet over to a table with some organizers.

Problem was chilli was decked out in his eunuch garb...cammo bonney cap, flowered shorts and a white tee-shirt with huge letters that simply declared MONSTER in huge purple letters.

I told the youth worker at the desk "I found him wandering around the parking lot, and I can not keep him, someone here needs to take him"

But when I tried to hand the little guy to the girl, he panicked and reached for me, it was such a precious moment. Except for all his crying got everyone's attention. So there I stood handing off a screaming child that obviously was not mine with a Tee-shirt that broadcast monster, riding a penis bike with a hunting cap.

Dispite the momentary embarassment/humiliation I may have been subject to I knew I could not leave him in that situation. I'm just glad I was there, it's not everyday you get to be a hero.

chilli