Chemoablation

[racona78 (imported)]

Chemical castration with intratesticular injection of 20% hypertonic saline: A minimally invasive method (http://www.urologiconcology.org/article ... 8/abstract)

Abstract

Objectives

Our aim was to ablate testicular tissue by hypertonic saline solution in a rat model, thereby to discover a minimally invasive alternative method to medical and surgical castration in patients with metastatic prostate carcinoma.

Methods

A total of 40 male Wistar rats were divided into orchiectomy (n = 20) and experimental groups. In the experimental group, 20% (n = 20) hypertonic saline solution was injected into the rat testes. Blood was taken prior to, 1 day, and 30 days after the intervention for testosterone determination. All testicles were surgically removed for pathologic examination.

Results

Skin infection, necrosis, and testicular abscess were not detected in any rat. Pathologic examination revealed necrosis in almost all areas of the testicle. The comparison of 0, day 1, and day 30 measurements of total testosterone did not reveal a statistically significant difference between the control and hypertonic saline groups at each of the three time points (Mann-Whitney U-test, P > 0.05).

Conclusions

Intratesticular hypertonic saline injection seems to be an alternative method in the future to its rivals such as orchiectomy and medical castration. This new approach offers a minimally invasive and less expensive method aside from preserving body image in metastatic prostatic carcinoma. However, our conclusions should be supported with more experimental studies before a clinical study is taken into account.

[racona78 (imported)]

Any thoughts? Saline has to be a lot safer then lactic acid or other more harsh things like alcohol. Although 20% hypertonic is a bit salty.. lol.

[malenomore (imported)]

This is very interesting, hope there is more information to come and discussions from all the knowledgeable folks out there.

[chilliwilli (imported)]

Any thoughts? Saline has to be a lot safer then lactic acid or other more harsh things like alcohol. Although 20% hypertonic is a bit salty.. lol.

You could call a eunuch an "OLD SALT" then, how wonderful!

It sure beats the life of a an 1800 mariner. And a stickin' rotten crotch is better than a worm riddled, rat infested mons o' war, or even worse putrid back breaking duty on a whaler searching for micky dick.

Where's the love?

The disgruntled domestic

chilli-

[Paolo]

Let's not go into the testicular injection subject again.

NOT something that we recommend.

[DeaconBlues (imported)]

Let's not go into the testicular injection subject again.

NOT something that we recommend.

OK, so I won't go into this subject... but now my curiosity has got me. WHY is it something you do not recommend? On the surface, it appears to be an easy and economical alternative to the outrageously priced surgical option, and it sure seems better than the burdizzo or any do-it-yourself surgery... What is wrong with this saline injection method?

[JesusA]

WHY is it something you do not recommend? On the surface, it appears to be an easy and economical alternative to the outrageously priced surgical option, and it sure seems better than the burdizzo or any do-it-yourself surgery... What is wrong with this saline injection method?

Two key problems:

(1) There have been disasters with both alcohol and Chemcast injections, and

(2) This has been done (so far) only on 20 juvenile laboratory rats.

Before anyone runs off and tries it, we need FAR better information. We don't need another disaster. I will try to run down as much information as I can and let you know....

[nullorchis (imported)]

Although I have personal experience with being needled in the orchis, I would never consider injecting any fluid directly into them, or into my brain or heart for that matter.

I do have a personal fascination and interest in medical suction needles. They are part of an expensive system used in operating rooms for delicate operations where small suction devices are needed to remove blood clots, tumors, and other nasty things. I fantisized that such a needle might be used to vacuum out the contents of a testicle leaving it something like a deflated balloon.

Undoubtedly this will remain a fantasy, not a reality. Too bad; it seems like it might have potential.

[DocT (imported)]

Please don't anyone try this. We've heard a lot of horrer stories on this site.

One quick thought: The primary vein of the left testicle joins the main vein of the left kidney. Saline destroys veins. As the saline dumps into the kidney vein it could compromise it. Will this lead to higher blood pressure in the kidney? It seems reasonable. If it did, progressive kidney disease would be a likely result.

DocT

[racona78 (imported)]

Sure hypertonic saline destroys tissue (dehydrates the cells). In a vein I doubt it would do MUCH damage to the actual vein since it would be moving through it fairly fast and getting diluted, it would however kill any blood cells in the hypertonic solution and then when it hit the heart and lungs might not be so good.

But in the venious return your not going to damage your kidney like your thinking, since its not going to go near them.

There of course is risk with injecting chemoablative chemicals into your body, and hitting into a vein or artery would be one or targeting undesired tissue.

Let's not be giving out advice on how to do this. Thanks. -P.

The other issue is aquireing sterile 20% hypertonic saline... its not eactly easy to come by.

The testicle is a pretty large thing to be injecting with a small needle, some care probably would be needed to not hit veins, but I don't think it would be really that hard to get the needed somewhat center.

As for the other injections on the site and horror stories. Saline is a natural chemical found in the body, although isotonic is 0.9%, so 20% is pretty concentrated, it would just dilute down to isotonic as it goes though the body, and if you don't inject TONS (I wouldn't consider abve 1ml, probably 1/2 mil would be enough) you're probably not going to destroy alot of tissue.

Hypertonic saline from what I've seen is a pretty well reasearched solution for chemoeblation in many different organs. It dosn't hold much promiss for killing cancer though due to it's unpredictable destruction path through an organ since it difuses through it. But for our purpose we're not trying any precision beond killing an entire, small, organ. Which so long as you stick with SMALL amounts of injectable it shouldn't be hard. Killing not enough is better then your whole penis falling off.

Going to a doctor and paying several grand isn't even remotely possible for some people...

[DeaconBlues (imported)]

....

Going to a doctor and paying several grand isn't even remotely possible for some people...

THANKYOU so much for that very important point. This is precisely why I find this subject so interesting, and precisely why I believe much of the medical professional community is going to be very averse to the idea.

For now, with only limited research into this, I would shy away from it, but I have to say it sounds VERY promising and interesting to me. A reasonable, relatively painless, ECONOMICAL castration, with no humiliating visit to the doctor.... I imagine this topic will be active.

[saywhat (imported)]

Sure hypertonic saline destroys tissue (dehydrates the cells). In a vein I doubt it would do MUCH damage to the actual vein since it would be moving through it fairly fast and getting diluted, it would however kill any blood cells in the hypertonic solution and then when it hit the heart and lungs might not be so good.

But in the venious return your not going to damage your kidney like your thinking, since its not going to go near them.

There of course is risk with injecting chemoablative chemicals into your body, and hitting into a vein or artery would be one or targeting undesired tissue.

You are half right here. 20% hypertonic solution is ment for ablating small veins, if it gets injected into larger veins or refluxes into larger veins it becomes dilute very quickly.

It is possible that it would fragment a bunch of red blood cells quite readily and maybe in the off chance cause a small clot to form. The clot (of that caliber) cannot cause damage to your heart (heart is feed blood from the high pressure aortic side). The clot would however travel to your lungs and being that it would be small would only damage a small part of your lungs. You probably would not notice.

The alarming part would be when your nut turns green/blue and swells up like a football. The scrotum has a multitude of bacteria on it. Even if you try to clean it as well as possible there is always the chance of infection. There is also the chance of depositing an epidermal (skin) plug into the testicle where it would/could grow if it is not destroyed by the saline.

If that did not scare you away... 20% sclerosing saline is as said before very hard to get a hold of. Usually dermatologists are the ones who have it. They use it for vericose veins. I have thought of using it before but haven't got the balls to do it. um er pardon my pun.

[racona78 (imported)]

You are half right here. 20% hypertonic solution is ment for ablating small veins, if it gets injected into larger veins or refluxes into larger veins it becomes dilute very quickly.

It is possible that it would fragment a bunch of red blood cells quite readily and maybe in the off chance cause a small clot to form. The clot (of that caliber) cannot cause damage to your heart (heart is feed blood from the high pressure aortic side). The clot would however travel to your lungs and being that it would be small would only damage a small part of your lungs. You probably would not notice.

The alarming part would be when your nut turns green/blue and swells up like a football. The scrotum has a multitude of bacteria on it. Even if you try to clean it as well as possible there is always the chance of infection. There is also the chance of depositing an epidermal (skin) plug into the testicle where it would/could grow if it is not destroyed by the saline.

If that did not scare you away... 20% sclerosing saline is as said before very hard to get a hold of. Usually dermatologists are the ones who have it. They use it for vericose veins. I have thought of using it before but haven't got the balls to do it. um er pardon my pun.

Well the swelling up and turning green/blue would be pretty much if something went wrong right? According to the article quoted initally none of the rats experienced any adverse affects.

Minimizing chance of infection wouldn't be THAT hard provided you used, say a surgical soap scrub thing to clean down there, then used plenty of PVP swabs to scrub the area prior to injection. And deposing a small piece of skin wouldn't really be a HUGE risk, the needles your using would in theory be a lot smaller then intramuscular injections which use a larger needle and have a better chance of deposing a skin plug...

The limiting factor though is getting the sterile 20% saline.. :-\

[ramses (imported)]

Wouldn't boiling in a clean glass container in the microwave sterilize it? Seems that if the heat didn't kill everything, the microwaves would. Just don't add salt (or anything else) to distilled water after it's been microwaved. It will explode in your face!!!

[racona78 (imported)]

Wouldn't boiling in a clean glass container in the microwave sterilize it? Seems that if the heat didn't kill everything, the microwaves would. Just don't add salt (or anything else) to distilled water after it's been microwaved. It will explode in your face!!!

I wouldn't use table salt if that's what your implying... Buying USP+ grade sodium chloride from a chemical supply company would be risky enough, but table salt has things in it that's not salt, like iodine and anti-cake chemicals, etc...

[nullorchis (imported)]

When it comes to "trial and error", injecting stuff into your testicles, or brain, or eyeballs, is a bad experiment, unless you don't mind dying.

The rats didn't have a choice in the matter.

You do have a choice.

Choose to not do this and just fantasize about it.

Maybe, just maybe, once the Earth's population is completely over flowing, the government will pay people to be castrated. At nearly 7 billion and counting, that day might be closer than we think.

[nonuts (imported)]

Two key problems:

(1) There have been disasters with both alcohol and Chemcast injections, and

(2) This has been done (so far) only on 20 juvenile laboratory rats.

Before anyone runs off and tries it, we need FAR better information. We don't need another disaster. I will try to run down as much information as I can and let you know....

Jesus,

I know you have more knowledge of the previous posts and threads than possibly anyone else here. I remember a very disastrous experience related by I think it was "scottie" had his very dubious injections of lactic acid. But, which were related to alcohol? I am curious, since alcohol is used medically to shrink localized tumors in of all organs the liver (seems an oxymoron, given the liver is the organ most frequently destroyed from alcohol abuse), but it is very effective, and has saved lives in patients that are not good candidates for surgery. I know this is a hyper-sensitive issue, mostly best avoided on the board, but why exactly? The normal warning applies: just cause something is done safely by doctors, doesn't mean the average Joe should assume it can be done safely in his kitchen, but is this a question of qualification or just pure bad news?

[speedvogel (imported)]

OK, here is my take on injecting saline into ones testicles. The more concentrated solution may possibly do damage, may even possibly destroy them. Not sane procedure at this time as much more research needs to be done.

I have had injected into my testicles normal sterile saline solution as part of intense S&M play. Not a recommended procedure, for sure! I wanted to experience it, considered the risks and decided to go ahead. Dear wife did this to me three times. The first time, we injected about 20 cc into each ball. It was very painful for a while and very erotic and satisfying. The other two times we did this, we injected a full 60 cc into each testicle. It hurt like hell for about 20 minutes before enough was absorbed to relieve the pressure. I liked it a bunch. We also decided we had pushed our luck on possibly doing permanent damage.

Speed

[nullorchis (imported)]

Any injection of fluid into the body should be done in a prescribed manner, unless you are conducting sanctioned ethical research.

Sample:

Objective—To evaluate the effect of intratesticular administration of lidocaine on cardiovascular responses and cremaster muscle tension during castration of isoflurane-anesthetized stallions

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10 ... r.67.3.403

or such as:

Titre du document / Document title

Evaluation of single intratesticular injection of calcium chloride for nonsurgical sterilization in adult albino rats

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17547421

What these research scientists are doing, if it were done to humans, would be something that Nazi Hitler might have done. That they are doing it to rats seems almost macab. They get paid to torture animals. All in the name of research.

I guess if you are interested in having chemicals shot up your nuts contact some of these research labs and volunteer to be their guinea pig. Not that they could officially conduct some of these tests on humans officially or legally, but in the pursuit of knowledge some of them might just be willing to conduct unofficial research.

Don't believe what you read on the internet.

There are some people out there with twisted minds who try and bait people into doing things.

Rememer the sickos who use to put poison into aspirin caplets (Years ago).

People died, and they got their jollies from seeing innocent people die.

Yuck.

Well there are still sickos out there and they will claim, very convincingly, that they did this or did that and got positive results with no harm. They do this knowing that some sucker will take the bait and try doing it, and ultimately harm or kill themselves.

Surely you must realize that everyone who posts information on this site is not an expert, not a professional, may not have personal experience with something, and might just be a faker, liar, or sicko.

Eventually in life you need to trust in somethings and someone. It's a risk we must take.

Be very very very cautious about who and what you believe and the risks you take.

[racona78 (imported)]

Surely your probably right that some people are sickos, but this is a link to an actual medical journal article. The reasearch was conducted to find a better approch (more practical and cheaper) then

orchiectomy and medical castration.

It's definitely in the very preliminary stages of testing, so I wouldn't be running out and grabbing some morton salt from your grocery and injecting it into yourself based on this, that would be a bit nuts.

Using hypertonic saline for chemoablation of tissue has quite a bit of medical journal papers citing it. So its not like some weird new idea to kill tissue. Using it to kill testicles hasn't been done medically yet though to my knowledge. And again dosage is key, these "horror" stories like Scottie with the lactic acid, he injected vastly insanely retardly too much into himself without doing the proper research to find out how much he should use. If he had used the correct dosage it might not of been a horror story...

Haven't seen links for alcohol horror storries, would be intrested in seeing them or others though.

[Paolo]

Racona,

Yes, what you linked to is a valid medical article. However, it's also something that the readers should understand is being studied in RATS and not a surefire easy castration method for humans.

Should this prove to be a viable alternative to pricey surgery, though, I am sure that access to the sodium type needed to do this will suddenly become extremely tight.

The medical profession doesnt' like it when you cut into their obscenely high income. For that matter, should any easy method of safe castration come along, or any method of ANY easy cure for ANYTHING that is currently a "cash cow", then it's sure to get buried right next to Jimmy Hoffa.

What we want to be made clear is that while we appreciate the information on promising research, we don't want everyone reading it and racing right out to try it!

[racona78 (imported)]

Well of course not... Although I don't buy into the conspiracy theory as much as you.. lol. I think medical practicioners should be more worried about socalized medicine headed down the pipe in the near term then this.

[JesusA]

Here's a response to this thread from the author of the original article:

Dear Sir,

Initially I did not take it serious when I received your first mail. The reason for that is I have never taken into account such a population when designing the procedure. Nevertheless, I haven't known the presence of this population. Now I realize that some misunderstanting evolved on this topic.

First of all, no clinical trial exists yet and probably won't due to the ethical reasons. We attended to this trial in men with metastaic prostate carcinoma before doing orchiectomy but could not get the permission from the national ethical committee. I can't recommend this procedure to this population to do themselves since pain will be a major problem due to two reasons.

One reason for intense pain is the distension of the tunica albuginea of the testicles and other is due to necrotic effect of hypertonic saline. Since there is no clinical trial, we do not know to what extend this method will be effective in destroying the testicular tissue totally. Rat testis is not similiar to human ones because it might not be possible all testicular tissue. Testes have a limited capacity to harbor enough volume of chemoablative to destroy all tissue.

I would not be able to write my thoughts on this topic to the site you indicated because I don't have permission .You can forward this mail to the group if you wish.

With regards.

Levent Emir,MD.

Assoc Prof of Urology

[Paolo]

Well if he wants an account, I'll build him one.

[BossTamsin (imported)]

I wouldn't think you could get much more definitive a response than that one.