Any word of an "SOCv9" process?

[WheelyFixed]

Back in the discussions that were happening after the EAv2 shutdown announcement, LoseThem raised an interesting point, without any real details or suggestions on how best to proceed...

Seems like we ought to bring it up for discussion....

LT said that there was a major behind the scenes battle to get the Eunuch Chapter into the SOCv8, and that we needed to be prepared for a struggle to keep the progress and recognition it gave us. (not to mention the need to get it accepted in places where it isn't at present)

I know that many of the EAv2 staff and regular posters were VERY key and actively involved in writing the Eunuch Chapter, and getting it into the SOC...

One of the significant differences between EAv2 and v3 is that as best I could tell, the EAv2 crew had some serious medical and academic credentials that gave them significant clout in dealing with WPATH... Except for the few that have followed us to the site (some of whom have said they don't want to have further involvement) AFAIK, none of the current team have anything close to the kind of chops that would let us have the same sort of influence. I know that I certainly don't... I've even looked at the WPATH application and as best I can tell all I could get is the lowest level that didn't seem to get you much in the way of access...

So a few questions -

1. Is there any discussion of starting a process for creating an "SOCv9" or even a "dot release" of v8?

2. If there is, how do we get a seat at the table?

3. If there isn't, how do we find out if / when it happens? (go back to Q2....)

Then assuming that we get a seat at the table, another big question -

4. What changes to the current chapter would we like to see?

My opinion is that we should / could push for an expansion of the 'acceptable' reasons for wanting to be castrated, hopefully enough that one doesn't need to get a 'mental health issue' diagnosis to do it....

I'd really like to see a move towards more of a (VERY) "Fully Informed Consent" access....

WheelyFixed

[fusion]

Sadly with the loss of those members from EAv2 it's going to be a very hard road for us to be able to recreate what they have left behind.

I am here to do what ever it takes to get this process seen and make sure our community gets heard.

It's going to be hard for me to get a seat at any table due to being so far away but I would want to put our best person out there and be out representative.

Who that would be I have no idea right now

While I was looking into this topic I did find something interesting.It looks like Australia has its own version of this called ausPATH.
I wonder if it would be an idea to contact these guys and see if they have anything to do with the SOC

[NaturalEunuch]

SOC-7 came out in 2012, SOC-8 came out in 2022, so we may have some time if past performance is any indication.

We should contact Dr. Thomas Johnson, Dr. Michael S. Irwig, and Dr. Kit Rachlin, since we know they wrote the eunuch section for SOC-8.

[WheelyFixed]

Sadly with the loss of those members from EAv2 it's going to be a very hard road for us to be able to recreate what they have left behind.

I am here to do what ever it takes to get this process seen and make sure our community gets heard.

It's going to be hard for me to get a seat at any table due to being so far away but I would want to put our best person out there and be out representative.

Who that would be I have no idea right now

While I was looking into this topic I did find something interesting.It looks like Australia has its own version of this called ausPATH.
I wonder if it would be an idea to contact these guys and see if they have anything to do with the SOC

I don't see that it would do any harm to contact ausPATH, though my guess is that they are probably just the national branch / chapter of WPATH... The question is whether you have any professional chops that would get you a seat at their table? (You've never said what your background profession is...)

WheelyFixed

[WheelyFixed]

SOC-7 came out in 2012, SOC-8 came out in 2022, so we may have some time if past performance is any indication.

We should contact Dr. Thomas Johnson, Dr. Michael S. Irwig, and Dr. Kit Rachlin, since we know they wrote the eunuch section for SOC-8.

My understanding is that SOCv8 was actually mostly finished several years prior to the 'draft release' - the process was greatly slowed by that nasty little bug everyone got so bothered by... If we hadn't had COVID it likely would have come out closer to the late 90's

(I'd also note that at least one of the above named folks is both a member here and was on EAv2.... Perhaps he will comment...)

WheelyFixed

[JesusA]

Work began in 2017 toward SOC8 with a determination by the board of WPATH on a tentative list of chapters. Authors were then chosen to begin work and drafts (MANY drafts) were circulated among the editors and authors. Some changes were made in chapters along the way and at least one chapter was not completed to the satisfaction of the group before the final edition was published.

The uncompleted chapter was the one on ETHICS, for which I was one of the authors. It was later published as a separate piece in the International Journal of Transgender Health.

I don't expect work to begin on SOC9 for another couple of years. I'm already in my 80s and don't plan to be involved in writing it. Others will need to take up the baton. I'm working on two young academics who might be willing.

[fusion]

Sadly with the loss of those members from EAv2 it's going to be a very hard road for us to be able to recreate what they have left behind.

I am here to do what ever it takes to get this process seen and make sure our community gets heard.

It's going to be hard for me to get a seat at any table due to being so far away but I would want to put our best person out there and be out representative.

Who that would be I have no idea right now

While I was looking into this topic I did find something interesting.It looks like Australia has its own version of this called ausPATH.
I wonder if it would be an idea to contact these guys and see if they have anything to do with the SOC

I don't see that it would do any harm to contact ausPATH, though my guess is that they are probably just the national branch / chapter of WPATH... The question is whether you have any professional chops that would get you a seat at their table? (You've never said what your background profession is...)

WheelyFixed

Lol thought my background was obvious, I'm a Technical Consultant for a MSP based in North Queensland and also a qualified Baker .

So I know my way though a computer and I can bake you some yummy things but surrounded by professionals like that would really put me in a strange place.

[fusion]

Work began in 2017 toward SOC8 with a determination by the board of WPATH on a tentative list of chapters. Authors were then chosen to begin work and drafts (MANY drafts) were circulated among the editors and authors. Some changes were made in chapters along the way and at least one chapter was not completed to the satisfaction of the group before the final edition was published.

The uncompleted chapter was the one on ETHICS, for which I was one of the authors. It was later published as a separate piece in the International Journal of Transgender Health.

I don't expect work to begin on SOC9 for another couple of years. I'm already in my 80s and don't plan to be involved in writing it. Others will need to take up the baton. I'm working on two young academics who might be willing.

Can totally understand that, Just let us know what we can do and I am sure something can be worked out.

May not be for a couple of years yet but that time frame is going to go by so quickly, look at 2024, so for me I would think this would be something out group needs to get started a little earlier so we can gain the knowledge and information that may have been lost with EAv2 early closing.

[NaturalEunuch]

I don't expect work to begin on SOC9 for another couple of years. I'm already in my 80s and don't plan to be involved in writing it. Others will need to take up the baton. I'm working on two young academics who might be willing.

I'm not a medical professional, but I am a writer with a good knowledge of castration topics, not to mention an actual eunuch with first-hand experience. If you need any writing help, I volunteer.

[Patrick1962]

Bonjour à tous,

Je n'ai qu'une question : c'est quoi le processus SOCv9 ?

Translation by Fusion:

Hello everyone,

I have only one question: what is the SOCv9 process?

[NaturalEunuch]

I have only one question: what is the SOCv9 process?

SOCv9 = will be Version 9 of the WPATH Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. They will soon be in the process of updating this document.

We are currently on SOC-8, i.e. version 8. Here is a link to the current version: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 22.2100644

[Nulloguy]

SOC 8 has only been out a couple of years. The SOC only increases in version number about once every 10 years. SOC 8 is what you should be focused on. There are far too many places in the world which know it exists, but seemingly refuse to implement it and/or are actively fighting it existing at all. So before everyone gets wound up about a so-called SOC 9, you may wish to focus on getting SOC 8 more widely implemented, as that is what is going to help ensure care remaining available at this point.

The other thing people should remember, because I've seen handwringing over this in other places, is the SOC isn't meant to identify every last aspect of gender or human sexuality. Nobody cares about your neutered fuckpig furry persona. ABSOLUTELY NOBODY. I actually saw someone lamenting they were not represented in the SOC because of something like that. Well, that's NOT what the SOC is about, and if anyone wants to work to ensure getting folks like us get taken OUT of it, keep going down that road.

The SOC is meant to identify and help the broadest range of individuals possible. As such, it will cover the common traits of the issue and not every single spoke on the wheel. It would be helpful to keep that in mind as folks start talking about revisions, or a new version.

Focus on what's important, not all the tangents.

[WheelyFixed]

SOC 8 has only been out a couple of years. The SOC only increases in version number about once every 10 years. SOC 8 is what you should be focused on. There are far too many places in the world which know it exists, but seemingly refuse to implement it and/or are actively fighting it existing at all. So before everyone gets wound up about a so-called SOC 9, you may wish to focus on getting SOC 8 more widely implemented, as that is what is going to help ensure care remaining available at this point.

The other thing people should remember, because I've seen handwringing over this in other places, is the SOC isn't meant to identify every last aspect of gender or human sexuality. Nobody cares about your neutered fuckpig furry persona. ABSOLUTELY NOBODY. I actually saw someone lamenting they were not represented in the SOC because of something like that. Well, that's NOT what the SOC is about, and if anyone wants to work to ensure getting folks like us get taken OUT of it, keep going down that road.

The SOC is meant to identify and help the broadest range of individuals possible. As such, it will cover the common traits of the issue and not every single spoke on the wheel. It would be helpful to keep that in mind as folks start talking about revisions, or a new version.

Focus on what's important, not all the tangents.

Thank you for the advice and wisdom of your experience, I greatly appreciate it. You make a number of very major points.

I agree that a large part of the battle of the moment is to get more places to accept and implement it and stop fighting against it. At the same time I think it's important to be at least on the lookout for when they start the v9 process to be sure we are part of it.

I agree that it isn't appropriate to try to get every last aspect of gender / sexuality covered, (I don't think that's possible given the range of same) but at least by my reading, and to some extent my experience going through it from the patient end, is that it only accepts a fairly limited range of reasons for wanting to be a eunuch, essentially disphoria or similar... If you can't make your reason 'fit' into that narrow range, you can't get past the gatekeepers.
I think that ideally it should be more that when a patient presents as wanting to be castrated / nullified / other, there should be verification that he does NOT have a psych issue that needs care first, and that he is fully aware of the consequences and is prepared to deal with them, then book the surgeon... The 'reason' should not be particularly relevant, which avoids going down that entire rabbit-hole of gender / sexuality.... If the patient believes that being a "neutered fuckpig furry" is what he really wants in life, it should be possible for him to be one without having to convince some doctor that it's a proper and legitimate choice...

WheelyFixed

[NaturalEunuch]

Nobody cares about your neutered fuckpig furry persona. ABSOLUTELY NOBODY.

Hey! Don't be dissing the Neutered FuckPig Furry Community! Just kidding, that line made me laugh out loud. Great reminder that SOC-8 still has a lot of life in it.