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A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:43 pm Also, inquiring minds want to know, Yankee Clipper, were you a regular member here befo

re under the handle Yankee masha or something to that effect?

No. I have always used this nick.

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:42 pm I can not be castrated now because it wo

A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:43 pm uld increase the clinical depression that I already suffer fro

m and that was brought on by the START of puberty.

Correct. A drop in Testosterone levels resulting from castration often cause depression itself. This is the compplication factor. Castration depression would excerbate the clinical depre

A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:43 pm ssion. Talk to my phychiatrists, There answer is the same.

You cannot blame this on depression. Puberty did not cause your depression. Depression is the result of a neuro-transmitter deficit, not puberty. If a doctor or psycholog

ist put this into your head they shoud be not be practicing.

That's noy quite what I said. I wrote that clinical depression first occured at the start of puberty. Puberty does not cause clinical depression, that is true; however. and both the psychiatrists and other patients I have disscussed this with, all agree that the changes that occur during puberty is what allows for the start of both Bi-Polar Disorder and clinical depressio

A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:43 pm n. That is also my personal experience, particularly with BPD.

You need to let go of some of your anger. Repressed anger complicates depression and leads to suicidal tendancies in the clinically depressed. Pl

ease, get a grip, O.K.? I am worried for your state of mind.

I have been in suicidal depression at times, I rebounded enough to never finally take that step, but I have a deep understanding of those that have. Thank you for your concern, in my case it is not displaced, but I am receiving sufficient proffesional care and medication that suicide is not a present danger. Repressed anger: it was supressed for years, has finally now come out from behind the veil. The anger that is there is not about whether I was castrated or not, but for a childhood of neglect bordering on abuse and a father unwilling to give his son the two things his son wanted more than anything else: his time, and his respect. It is only recently that I have come to understand how corrosive our relationship was. This though is not the venue for this topic. But, thank you.

YC

A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:43 pm If his balls were not working then why could he masturbate when he had them but not masturbate after he was castrated?

It seems that if they were not working and not going to develop in the first place that castration should have had no effect on his ability to masturbate.

A natural question. He started masturbating at 11. Boys can start to masturbate as young as 6. Two things: One, I expect that even though they would never mature, they were producing some Testosterone, the loss of which caused the loss of erectile function. Two, the loss of erectile function is consistent for all the pre-pubital castrates that I know.

Boys with Klienfelter's Syndrome can often masturbate, but their testes will not mature without HRT. Note though, I am not implying he had Klienfelter's, he did not.

YC

curious_guy (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:45 pm Are these drugs administered orally or by injection? How often must they be taken? Do they have significant side effects?

Others here can address that better than I can.

YC

for myself castration was on my mind as young as age 5 now that i have become a eunuch I have no regrets save one... I regret that when I first wanted to stop being a boy (age 5) I could have been able to achieve that goal. I have never wavered from this desire/need and I am certain that if I were able to have been castrated at 5 I would not regret it. the point is that there are some that were simply born equipped wrong and when they recognize it is when they recognize it. age is inconcequential it is the certanty that matters.

WeRNotAfraid (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:59 am No, no, and NO. There is obviously a distubing number of people on here who fantasize about children, particularly chilren who become mutilated/castrated for some reason. That's bad enough. To want to castrate children so they can attain some imagined state of "choirboy" or whatever the hell it is is ever more pathetic and disgusting. I don't even favor allowing youth who may be transsexuals to undergo surgery. In worst case scenario, they should be prescribed anti-androgens to delay the onset of masculinization and nothing more. When you're 18 and had more time to think about it, THEN is the time to start hormones and procede to more irreversible procedures.

I believe this thread was started with the intention NOT to be some sort of fetish or act of perversion. True, it is a delicate subject for some to discuss rationally. I do agree with you that if puberty can be delayed until the person is older, then so much the better. Which brings up the question would the parent/guardian be aware of such desire and allow them a choice in the matter?

WeRNotAfraid (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:59 am I'm probably one of the very few people on here who have actually HAD orchiectomy surgery. It's a tough thing to go through, and the ill prepared can suffer serious after effects. I've known I was transgendered since I was very young, but I waited until 25 to have surgery. Why? To be on the safe side.

I may be a bit bias on this subject because I am also transsexual. I do have some regret for not persueing a transition earlier in life, but I can't change the past.

Here are some quotes of an unpublished biography I am working on. I think that many here can identify with what I have said.

My earliest memory of being "different" started about when I was about 4 years old. I remember vividly the day I was helping mom in the kitchen along with my younger brother. As we were helping, my mom turned to both of us and asks if we were boys or girls. I knew for a long time the answer for me in my heart was a girl, but my brother had blurted out his answer first by saying that he was a boy. At that moment I hesitated and the thought raced through my mind that if he answered he was a boy, and I had parts like him, I should answer the same for fear of being wrong or punished. This was the start of keeping a secret for most of my life.

Now the question is how many boys/adolescents are there out there who could be a candidate for this and are affraid to speak up?

WeRNotAfraid (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:59 am There are plenty of regret stories out there, and on here. A lot of people regret their surgeries.

I do not regret the changes I have gone through and the surgery I've had so far.

WeRNotAfraid (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:59 am All of the mutilation fetishes, pedophilia thinly disguised under a veneer of concern ("if children have unnecessary surgery they won't grow up" ala Michal Jackson) and projecting of sexual fantasies on to minors is the reason I don't come here anymore. I'm not one of those spineless PC types that says "well, anything goes when it comes to sex and it's all relative." It's not. I'm disgusted by some of the stuff people on here imagine. Anyone thinking about children in this way needs help or to be in jail.

True. There are

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:42 pm many topics here I am not in agreement with either. Does that mean someone can't post their opinion even if it goes against my beliefs? I think not. However, there have been a few posts that were just too close to being pediofile in nature.

Jay was offered castration at 12, arranged through an elder of the choir with a male nurse practitioner. His father refused to approve it, and it was not done. It is Jay's belief that part of his father's reasoning was that then Jay could later sire children, giving him him gandchildren. Well Jay is gay and will not sire children, If he ch

ooses to be a father, he will adopt.

Just after he turned 15, puberty started and his voice quickly started to break. He was never able to move to the men's choir, his voice never returned.......Jay lost his voice and his father lost him.

I was also in a boys choir before puberty. Once puberty hit I lost that ability to sing well. In later years I also struggled with the fact of loosing the ability to father a child. I was horrified about the changes puberty brought on.

As I grew older

A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:43 pm I still never revealed the fact I wanted to be, or should have been, a girl. By this time I was approaching puberty, which started between

the ages of ten and eleven. This was the hardest time of my life. I hated many things about puberty. My first and most hated thing was the time I had an erection.

The problem of this whole scenerio is that the parents that will let the kid do it generally will not have a kid that needs or wants to.

I offer you ano

JesusA wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:41 am ther clip from my biography.

Growing up throughout childhood, I can now look back and see the signals that I was not the typical boy. Although it was never brought to my attention, I wonder now if anyone else saw these signals I was giving.

Delay would certainly be part of anything that I came up wit

h. It's just what else goes with the delay. Counseling and education, of course, but should there be any drug-induced delay of puberty? Should the child go through puberty before being able to make a choice? There are problems BOTH ways.

I believe the best answer to this would be a delay in puberty for both the trangendered as well as non-transgendered. But it would take courage on the part of the young person as well as compassion from the parent/guardian in order to affect these decisions.

Kelly_2 (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:51 am It is people like me who endure the discrimination--they can avoided it and I see no reason why they should suffer. A good example is Natta (featured in Annie's page). She was the one that took care of me for several weeks after my SRS. She started estrogen at age 11 and had SRS herself at age 16. I am so jealous!

It seems that the prevention of puberty for TS girls is an optimal idea. Their lives can be so much better than those of us who endure the wrong puberty.

I totally agre with you Kelly. Pehaps in todays society it is an approach that will have many benefits for the younger TS girls.

Many decades ago when I was growing up, gender and sex were one in the same. Of course now we know different. Any talk of sex back then was unheard of.

Boots (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:15 pm I wish that I had been castrated at an early age rather than as an adult. I really wanted to be castrated at 9 and asked and had some school friends try to do so but we did not know how. We tried to squeeze them to destroy them but could not do so. I never wanted my nuts then or later but did not get castrated til late 30's. It has been wonderful but could have been better if done back then.

Like Boots, I also thought abt it at an early age but cldnt do anything abt it.

I agree with YankeeClipper, as a now middle-aged eunuchoid (non-functioning testicles), still having a soprano voice and singing, mostly in a church choir, and never having taken testosterone. (Moreschi a.k.a. Jennie with whom I have spoken over the telephone has heard my speaking voice).

If a prepubertal boy wants ernestly to be castrated either to preserve his singing voice, or simply because he considers that so-called 'normal" adult male secondary sexual characteristics are a most terrible disfigurement (as I do), then let him have it, in my view. To respect the wishes of transsexual children, of whom boys wanting to be castrated are a subclass, and also hermaphrodite/intersexual and eunuch children, I advocate the abolition of any age of consent for either obtaining or refusing medical treatment, subject only to the condition that the child has been properly informed and is fully aware of the consequences. A satisfactory compromise may be for them to take androgen-blockers and gonadotropin-blockers, to delay puberty until they are in a better position to reaffirm their wishes, which must be respected. The only exception should be for immediately life-threatening or severely disabling pathological (diseased) conditions.

I will be contacting YankeeClipper off-line (or he may contact me first), as I have this month been in contact with a 15-year-old castrato boy soprano named Matthew, in a certain city in southwest England, who sings in a choir and has recently been having singing lessons. He was born without testicles, and does not want to take testosterone, a decision which his mother and stepfather support. I would like to put him in contact with the 15-year-old one named Tim in the cathedral choir in Wales, for peer support.

I will also be replying in the Castrating Minors thread.

As a happy, middle-aged eunuch who knew he wanted to be neutered at an early age, I wish I had the opportunity to be castrated before puberty. Or, failing that, the opportunity to take androgen-blockers until I was 18 and could decide to be castrated.

I never wanted body hair or a deep voice or an adult-sized penis. I also sang soprano in the children's choir, and enjoyed having a high singing voice. Not long after puberty, my voice deepened into a baritone, which was tremendously disappointing to me. It just didn't sound like my voice anymore. I continued singing through junior high, but gave it up afterwards because singing the men's parts wasn't interesting to me.

I also wish that

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:40 am someone had castrated me before puberty...

(restoration from originator's backup file)

I also wish that

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:40 am someone had castrated me before

or during puberty. Best if my dearest papa did it for me timely. He was a luminous surgeon in one of the South Manchuria Railway Company Hospital, didn't back from Manchuria even when WW2 has been far over. I am still longing for he is comming back, for nearly 60 years, to operate me as he once promised he will do it for me soon, to make me a best boy. I thought he will stop me to get aged and adultated, though retrospectively I guess he might have said only that he will circumcize me, ----- with his own hand at home. The deepest core of my heart stopped to go further since at that moment me being 12 years old, although eventually I got Ph.D., happily married and made another best boy, enjoying professorship in country-side university for long time, and, etc. etc.. Guess my age, dear kindest colleagues, and thanks 100% reading my short message here.

Controvercial and awesome thread! Obviously it's probably dangerous and controvercial to make sweeping statements about castrating children. But - knowing now what I know - it would have been wonderful to not have gone through puberty.

As I've written in my sort of biographical-ish thread, the self-harm began in puberty when I had trouble dealing with what was happening to my body and the feelings and urges I never identified with.

And I like Skoptzikovs comment! Although I'm not really a woman, I'm definitely not a man. Hehe, being called "Ma'am" may not be quite on the money, but it's certainly closer than "Mister" or some term like that. Much of what he wrote is so much like my life

And, like Philip1 said, it would have been so nice to be done when I first started feeling something was "off" (about age 8). Most of all, it would be nice to not have so much hair, to have a nicer voice that is softer and more pleasing sounding (as I think I've mentioned in another thread). I think those are the two attributes I miss having not been castrated before puberty.

Just my two-pennith

It's interesting to note how many of us say this now - looking back as rational adults.

My own fascination with castration began around age 11. I recall the survey says - 12, but that's close enough.

I remember telling this "great idea" to two of my friends then. That wasn't a good idea. Children can be extremely cruel to one another. They'll pick on someone over anything - glasses, teeth, ears, etc. You can imagine the heyday that these "friends" had with idea that one of the local group didn't want his balls anymore.

It all goes back to children being allowed to make their own decisions. This is the premise of a story I'm working on currently - at what age can a child be allowed to make such momentous decisions? And what can the outcome be?

You can almost (almost) relate this to the decision of allowing a nine year old to get his head shaved and his ears pierced. Do you let a 14 year old get his tongue pierced? But hair grows back, and earrings come out. Something like castration is forever.

Looking back, and with five examples of immature decision making power following me around, I still have to stand by the notion that children are not capable of understanding the long-term consequences of something like castration and cannot be allowed - even if it were possible to obtain - to make their own decision in this matter.

There's a basic paradox here, of course. Seeing my life in retrospect (I'm past 50) I can appreciate that I would have been a more productive, better educated, saner person if I had not spent so much time chasing sex. So yes, neutering young would have been a good thing for me. However, had it happened, I am sure I would have spent the last forty years thinking about all I was missing sexually.

Terry

It is long past time to restart this thread. This topic will remain important and vital for the foreseeable future. I hope this thread does not wither away as quickly as it had before, but, if it does, I'll just restart it again .

Current medical updates (though some do come from prior posts here):

UK has, in at least one case, provided androgen blockers for an MtF boy at age 10 and provided by the NHS. That was in 2005, so I suspect that the program has been expanded since then.

Canada provides androgen and estrogen blocker for MtF and FtM children starting at age 12. I think though with puberty starting earlier now, that may be to late in some cases.

*** NEWS ***

Within the past month or so as I write this, a Doctor at The Children's Hospital in Boston has now chosen to specialize exclusively in Gender Diasphora (sp?) in children, and will prescribe androgen and estrogen blocker for MtF and FtM children starting at the age of 8.

He finds that most of his patients are brought in by parents that have come to realize that their child has an issue of this type. Few of the parents come in expecting him to have Johnny behave as a boy should, but why he'd rather be a girl, and vice-versa.

NOW, If we can get the Psychiatrists and Psychologists to recognize that a boy that wants to remain a boy (or just slightly less so, by two bits) does indeed fit the Gender Diasphora (sp?) model. And good luck in getting the DSM-IV updated. If anyone here knows what the procedures the are to get it corrected/updated, there many future boys out there that will be extremely grateful.

Age has been discussed heavily here about the correct age for the actual operation to be done. In Holland, it is elective at 16, and with parental consent, 14 (for Tim that was fine (15), for others, it might be a bit young, below 16). In the US, it still very much, even as adults to obtain, unless it is for SRS reasons, otherwise castration is only available through the few that will do a plain castration (i.e. Dr. Kimmel) without a full SRS consult, when in fact, SRS is not the desired outcome in any event.

I will reiterate what has been said in the past: any boy that spends months in serious consideration of this should be put on androgen blockers until he is old enough to make an informed decision. Of the boys that had the surgery prior to puberty (Alex had not hit puberty by age 14, by then he was ordering Androcur out of Canada, Tim had not at 15) all were satisfied by the outcome. Only a few boys give even a passing thought, for a boy to spend months considering, and broaching it with his parents, and getting their support, shows a level of wisdom that few adults seem to pocess.

Jay was (and remains so) throughly angry with father for not allowing the surgery to go forward. Now he keeps his body completely shaved to avoid one of the outcomes of puberty. To him, what still hurts the most is the loss of his voice. Of all of thing that can be reversed by castration, the change of voice cannot be.

There was one question that was asked but, I don't fully answered it:

The loss of erectile function in each of the boys...

During gestation, the differences in the hormone levels produced by the pituitary gland helps in determining the physical sex of fetus. During childhood, the pituitary gland produce small amount of testosterone or estrogen. This cause some release of testosterone and by the testes or overies.

When the testes are excised, only the amount produced by the pituitary gland remains, without the "amplification" produced by the testes. It is the drop in the already low level of testosterone that causes loss of erectile function. As time passes, it takes longer to achieve erection, and overall, just less satisfying. after a month or so, all desire to masterbate has disappeared.

One other observation: of all the the boys that I know that either wanted castration (Jay and myself) or were castrated, all of us are gay, and self-identified at an early age, age 6 for myself, all of the other before they were 10. I don't know what the overall corollation is, but I'd very interested in how many of those seeking castration during childhood were self-identified as gay at an early age.

All right all... start your engines... and again, lets keep it a civil discourse... we did quite well during the the last pass.

YC

I also posted #33 above, but I'll amplify on it a bit.

I'm 54 now, and I've been a eunuch for going on six years now. I'm extremely satisfied being a eunuch, and wouldn't change things back even if I could.

I think I first thought about being neutered when I was 8, when we had one of our dogs neutered. I didn't really understand what it meant, but I thought the idea of not having testicles sounded neat. As I mentioned above, I had started singing in the children's choir, where I was a soprano, before that time. I wasn't a star singer (I was never going to be a soloist), but I enjoyed singing the high parts. Over the years I saw other guys have to leave the choir when their voices changed, and I didn't want that to happen to me.

I also saw guys not much older than me getting hair on their bodies and larger penises, and although I found that fascinating on other guys (I didn't know then that I was gay, but I obviously was), I didn't want that to happen to me. I was able to do some reading that told me my testicles would cause those changes, so by the time I was 11 or 12 I knew I wanted to have them cut off. Of course there was nothing that could be done, and I knew better than to mention this desire to anyone, so puberty started when I was 13, my penis started getting bigger, I developed body hair, and worst of all my voice pretty quickly settled into a baritone. And it was 35 years before I was able to achieve my dream of having my testicles removed.

All of this is a long-winded preamble to saying I would have jumped at the chance to be castrated before puberty, or at least to receive meds to stop puberty from happening until I was deemed old enough to decide to lose my testicles. I never masturbated until I was 14, so I wouldn't have missed that, and I would have been excited at having the opportunity to stay a boy with a small penis and no hair, and best of all a high voice.

I'm willing to grant that an 11- or 12-year old shouldn't get to make such a decision on his own, and that maybe there should be a "test run" of a few years on anti-androgens seeing his friends become men before he gets to be neutered, so I would set the minimum age for voluntary castration at 15 probably. I would, however, allow younger boys to have their testicles removed with their parents' consent and a psych evaluation testifying that they were fully aware of the consequences.

This leads into the idea that there is a continuum of transgenderism. At one end would be the physical boys who are really girls. At the other end are boys who are okay with having penises but just want to stay boys by having their testicles removed. In between would be boys who want their penises amputated as well, and boys who want vaginas but not breasts. I'm fine with having a penis, and just didn't want to get the adult male characteristics. Presently, segments of the medical community deal quite well with the furthest end, what we could call the "true-transgendered", and earlier posts in this thread have pointed out how at least other countries are accommodating boys who don't want to go through male puberty while they transition to girls. Doctors seem quite willing to deal with people who are all one thing or all the other (boys or girls). Right now they have a problem with those of us who are in the middle - boys who don't want all of our male equipment, but don't want to be girls.

I can only hope that in the future we will be recognized and accommodated.

Speaking as an mtf transwoman I can say categorically that if I had had the opportunity as a child or young teenager of taking male hormone blockers or getting castrated prior to full srs it would have made my life a great deal better.

I didn't get so excessively androgenised that I wasn't able to transition, but it didn't help!

For me, testosterone was a poisonous mutogen, ghastly stuff yuk!

If enlightened medical practitioners can allow young gender dysphorics to take some measures that prevent permanent androgen mutation then good for them, they will prevent a great deal of suffering.

My fear with this topic is this...i really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want. Aesthetically, yes, i can see how someone who followed through on transition would wish for the benefits of never having had the male traits puberty will bring. That said, i think many many more would wind up regretting the change...not because the change is inherently bad. Hell, i wouldn't be here if i thought that, but because those that young often don't really know what they want.

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself I knew what I wanted from as early an age as five, I wanted to be a girl and hated those boy bits. But getting anything done about it and all the social attitudes etc meant that it took until adulthood to do anything about it

postoplezzie

I am almost fifty years old and can still sing like the cartoon chipmunks or that "I'm so lonely" song. A little before last Christmas, I had fun singing carols along with the radio all by myself with no one around to tease me. I did keep up with Celine Dion, believe it or not. But most people wouldn't be able to tell by my actual talking voice that I could sing so high. Most people identify me as a college age male and would never know that I had semi-dysfuntional balls and now have none. Actually my speaking voice seems close to sounding like that of one of those female senators from Maine (I forget which one) but I don't I don't don't bother with using the feminine inflections which differentiates me from the women. I guess what I'm saying is that there are other ways to get around as a male without really having the balls to do so. I know because I had to.

emasculateme (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:33 am My fear with this topic is this...I really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want. Aesthetically, yes, I can see how someone who followed through on transition would wish for the benefits of never having had the male traits puberty will bring. That said, I think many many more would wind up regretting the change...not because the change is inherently bad. Hell,

I wouldn't be here if I

emasculateme (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:33 am thought that, but because those that young often don't really know what they want.

"I really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want.

"

No, the reverse for the members here. No one that is going to remain as they were born as and knew and feel comfortable as they are, give any thought at all to the thought of something different for themselves.

The first time you pick up your first your first crayon, did you spend time deciding which hand to use? Or did you just pick it up? For me, it always ended up in my left hand.. It wasn't a decision, it was automatic...

I think it is an appropriate analogy. Heterosexual children (BtM[en], GtW) never "decide;" the question was never there.

It is us that finally see the question. The answer was already there, waiting for us to find it.

-------------------------------------------

Again "I

emasculateme (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:33 am really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want.

"

I did then. I do still, but I can't now. Earlier posts of mine explain why. I get a very distinct impression that most MtE boys (at that age, it is really BtE) (and those now men) know at least a few years before puberty, just as MtF boys and FtM girls do. Just as gays and lesbians know that their "role," as defined by a broad society, is upside-down for them, so do MtF, FtM, and BtE..

I have noticed in the discourse here that there is a consensus that blockers should be provided to pre-pubertal boys (MtF) and girls (FtM) until they are older, so they can make a more informed decision. Certainly if MtF and FtM chidren are now prescribed blockers, then they should be for BtE. The MtF and FtM get psychological reviews, so "should" BtE boys.

Unlike MtF boys, and FtM girls, MtE boys are unchanged psysically; the big biological change is at the start of puberty, so I would, however, allow younger BtE boys (age ?),

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:32 pm to have their testicles removed with their parents' consent

(and a psych evaluation testifying so

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:32 pm that they were fully aware of the consequences?

the consequences are far less "invasive". ). Age? God, who knows? I don't. Tim did. Could he answer for another boy? No, nor would he try.

I was certain by Tanner, Stage 2, that I never did want to be an adult, i wanted to remain a boy, no more, no less; and to the Eunuchs that I know of, they still consider Male in all respects. That means boys'/men's sports, boy/men's restrooms and showers, etc...

What they don't see themselves as a third sex, or a middle sex, just "boys;" they think of themselves as just as masculine as they were back when they born. For some of you, you may consider that you are between the Masculine and Feminine "end-points," and so you are. You "decide" within yourself where you fit. Self-identification belongs to that person alone.

Any boy that has come to know himself as boy, that does not want manhood, he is pretty correct. Mots boys can't wait to be men, can't wait to show off chest hair and the like.

(I think though that Holland might have found the right age, 14, but without blockers, that can be maddeningly too late.)

Wisdom does not come with age, it comes as it does. Age? God, who knows? I don't. Tim did. Tim already has shown how much wisdom he has. Much more than I have at my age. (It's not polite to ask.)

Okay, age is still a very hot topic here, and valid. think on this: How many members here knew that were MtF, MtE, or FtM, and were able to follow through: 1.) Knew what they were before puberty, 2.) Satisfied or unsatisfied with the outcome, why?, 3.) ever had any doubt since you came to the understanding of yourself in that respect.

One member here went through the complete transition, found both wrong, is now a eunuch and has found peace.

How is it that I answer more questions than were ever posed ?

YC

Quick follow-up on an earlier comment I made: I mention "should" regarding evaluation for BtE, because for the BtE, he is not going from masculine to feminine and his body is not being radically transformed sexually by several operations, some that may only be performed once body height is attained. The on-coming masculine adulthood is doing the transforming for a BtE. Otherwise, little evaluation is required, a boy know already what it is to be a boy. Very different for BtG, GtB, MtF and FtM.

YC

YC -

I agree with you that the BtE or MtE transition is less drastic than, e.g., MtF or FtM, since the only really irreversible change is the loss of ability to make sperm. Puberty can always be induced later if desired through administration of hormones. Yes, the boy will look different than other men, because of longer long bones in relation to body size, but that's relatively minor. And these days with computer aging of children's photos it should be possible to create an approximation of how the boy will look as an older eunuch to let him decide if that's an acceptable appearance.

I also agree that for boys who have thoughts of castration it's not just a casual "gee, wouldn't that be cool" kind of thing. The vast majority of boys can't wait to get body hair and large penises and become men. Those of us who want to become eunuchs really want to stay boys, and know it from fairly young ages. As I said, I began thinking about it when I was 8 or so, and knew for certain I wanted to be neutered when I was 12 and still a Tanner 1 (I didn't start growing pubic hair and my testicles didn't start growing until sometime after my 13th birthday).

I would be perfectly accepting of castration at ages as young as 10-12 with parental consent, and a psych evaluation meant basically to determine that the boy fully understands that he will never be able to father children, that his physical appearance will be different as a result of castration, and that there is some likelihood that he won't have the ability to have erections. I would have been overjoyed had the opportunity been open to me at that age. I can't ever remember wanting to be a father, erections were just kind of an annoyance to me at that age (I didn't start masturbating until I was 14 or 15), and the appearance changes would have been just part of the deal.

When I say wanting to be a eunuch is part of the continuum of transgenderism, I don't mean to imply that we eunuchs form a kind of third sex. I still consider myself a guy, even though I've had two of the bits that determine maleness removed. I think had I been castrated before puberty I would feel the same way. I suppose I'm using the term transgendered to mean anyone who doesn't want to fit into the category usually thought of as male (penis, testicles, more or less hairy body, wears pants, etc.).

Anyway, I'm glad to continue this conversation.

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:26 am YC -

I agree with you that the BtE or MtE transition is less drastic than, e.g., MtF or FtM, since the only really irreversible change is the loss of ability to make sperm.

There is one other irreversible change that occurs if puberty is allowed to progress that needs to considered, That is the change in voice. Again, with HRT, that will occur as part of the development process. If androgen blokers are used, then will occur as the other traits of maturity porgress.

I have come to belief that blockers should be the best course until a boy reaches a determative age, since HRT becomes a life-long regimen, since HRT is what is used to reverse the changes of medical castration.

YC -

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:26 am And these days with computer aging of children's photos it should be possible to create an approximation of how the boy will look as an older eunuch to let him decide if that's an acceptable appearance.

Yes, be careful with that though. Puberty causes many physical changes to the body that cause many potential effects that parallel the effects of menopause in women if the castration is performed after T S 2 is well along or during TS 3 and after.

Without the occurrence of puberty, there is nothing reverse. Since the maturation of the body that occurs during the stages, nothing reverts: no male menopause; no loss of muscle mass, no drop in metabolism, no shift of fat from waist to hip, no development of breasts. Adults with Klienfelter's Syndrome are the best example of adults that never entered puberty.

Klientfelter's is caused by the lack of increase in testosterone from the pituitary gland that "wakes-ups" the testes. A short regime of HRT "wake-up" the testes, the production of testosterone then continues naturally.

To computer render something very different from that would present a very inaccurate portrayal of the results that pre-pubertal castration causes.

YC

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:27 am Yes, be careful with that though. Puberty causes many physical changes to the body that cause many potential effects that parallel the effects of menopause in women if the castration is performed after T S 2 is well along or during TS 3 and after.

Without the occurrence of puberty, there is nothing reverse. Since the maturation of the body that occurs during the stages, nothing reverts: no male menopause; no loss of muscle mass, no drop in metabolism, no shift of fat from waist to hip, no development of breasts. Adults with Klienfelter's Syndrome are the best example of adults that never entered puberty.

YC

As far as muscle mass gain before puberty, look at how many boys (pre-pubertal) do weight lifting, play little league baseball, Pop Warmer football, junior league soccur; its just takes longer to develop mass, but they can continue at the same rate as in any other boy.

To avoid weight gain, careful dieting will prevent that. Keep in mind that metabolism does go not go up if puberty never occurs. For me, my fat gain actually started during puberty. Before puberty, I could ride my bike for considerable distances. As I moved into High School, the increase in time for studies, time was reduced athletic activities, with the resulting weight (fat) gain.

YC

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:27 am There is one other irreversible change that occurs if puberty is allowed to progress that needs to considered, That is the change in voice. Again, with HRT, that will occur as part of the development process. If androgen blokers are used, then will occur as the other traits of maturity porgress.

I have come to belief that blockers should be the best course until a boy reaches a determative age, since HRT becomes a life-long regimen, since HRT is what is used to reverse the changes of medical castration.

Without the occurrence of puberty, there is nothing reverse. Since the maturation of the body that occurs during the stages, nothing reverts: no male menopause; no loss of muscle mass, no drop in metabolism, no shift of fat from waist to hip, no development of breasts.

I agree with you that prevention of puberty in those for whom it would be distressing should be the highest priority. This would mean administration of blockers until they reach an age where they're deemed capable of consenting to castration on their own. I think boys of 14 or 15 should be able to make that decision without outside interference; unfortunately, however, in the real world the age of consent for testicle removal is unlikely ever to be below 18. Equally unfortunately, administration of blockers is unlikely ever to be allowed without parental consent, so parents will

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:41 am be able to keep some boys from obtaining the relief they

need.

For me, my fat gain actually started during puberty.

Funny how that works. I was a fat boy before puberty (BMI in the top 3-5% of boys for my age), but started slimming down probably about the time I reached Tanner 3 (14 or so), and reached an average BMI by age 18 or 19.